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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Employees are different today? Maybe employers too?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Still trying to hire office staff. They need basic business training re phones, computers, scanning, filing, making appointments. This is a starting office job, looking at business diploma recent graduates. 3 months after hiring giving raise of $2/hour. We pay the same rate to start as gov't offices, but the raise exceeds their's. We give benefits, generous re personal time. Etc.
So we have interview round 1. We offer to the best candidate, who doesn't return calls or emails. So we advertise again and offer to next person, who accepts and discusses logistics like parking and says how excited etc. But never shows up. No response to queries. Just doesn't respond.
So now we're starting round 3. I have been in business for 24 years. What's going on? We have had excellent retention. The last time we hired was 7 years ago. Is this bad luck or is something different with the young, new prospective employees?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Bad luck. Or maybe good luck, since you dodged a bullet (would you really want to employ someone who proves to have such deplorable manners?).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
Having just been through recruitment process for the first time in a very large number of years, I can certainty confirm that recruitment has changed.
Everything is done via faceless job boards where no one other than agencies advertise. If your CV doesn't tick enough of the boxes(which is 99% of the time), you hear nothing. Not a dickey-bird. You might just as well send your application into a black hole. Then agents get hold of your CV, ring you up and tell you they've got a great opportunity - then don't call again. The adage is true - if you're not paying for the service then you're not the customer - you're the product.
There seems to be a myth amongst employers that there is a perfect candidate out there waiting for them to come and offer a market rate salary which will induce them to leave their old job and join a new company. All they need is a killer agency to go and find that mythical beast.
What a society needs is employers who will take on people who need jobs; and if they don't quite have the right skills (because they've never had to do that particular job before) then give them some training. Is that too much to ask?
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is this bad luck or is something different with the young, new prospective employees?
It's summer. The population from which you're trying to hire is still out camping and making plans with friends.
You might try your next hiring round in the middle of September: summer is a memory, friends are at university, parents are asking when you're planning to get a job, etc.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Also, some programs such as unemployment insurance require people to apply for X number of jobs every week to stay eligible, and don't monitor whether or not the jobs applied for are appropriate for the applicant's skills, etc. So they may not be applying because they want the job, but because there are no jobs out there that they feel qualified for, so they're just scattershotting (to coin a term) to fulfill their obligation. Don't ask me how I know this.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
It seems to be standard nowadays, or at least here in Finland, that a company won't even reply that they've received your application. Very vexing. I also heard that some employers see it as a bad thing if you' ve worked for the same company for more than a few years. Is that true? If so, I find it odd.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There's absolutely no excuse, in these days of electronic applications, for not acknowledging applications, or for not informing people promptly that they have not been shortlisted. I can understand that when it was all done by post you wouldn't have wanted the trouble and expense of sending out perhaps a hundred letters to tell people that they weren't being invited for interview, but nowadays it can be done with one click of a button.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
It cuts both ways, in terms of the communication deficit. Employers, or (more likely) recruitment agents, are likely to just come and go in terms of keeping in touch with you.
The problem with "younger people" who have grown up with instant communication is that almost all communication has become ephemeral, with no compulsion to stick to any particular thread for any length of time. If the message isn't what they want, they just ignore it - no need to reply, as some other message will be along shortly to grab their attention.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Still trying to hire office staff. They need basic business training re phones, computers, scanning, filing, making appointments. This is a starting office job, looking at business diploma recent graduates. 3 months after hiring giving raise of $2/hour. We pay the same rate to start as gov't offices, but the raise exceeds their's. We give benefits, generous re personal time. Etc.
So we have interview round 1. We offer to the best candidate, who doesn't return calls or emails. So we advertise again and offer to next person, who accepts and discusses logistics like parking and says how excited etc. But never shows up. No response to queries. Just doesn't respond.
So now we're starting round 3. I have been in business for 24 years. What's going on? We have had excellent retention. The last time we hired was 7 years ago. Is this bad luck or is something different with the young, new prospective employees?
What are you offering your employees that can go on their CV/resumé for future jobs? Yes, the employment market has changed, and that probably means they won't be staying with you for the rest of their working lives. The job you give them, whatever the immediate rewards are, also has to help them get their next job.
True, it's rude not to acknowledge communications, and even worse simply to not turn up. But it's not worse than the games that some employers play (present company excepted, of course!). It's common for candidates to be considering several job offers at once these days, and unfortunately they don't feel obliged to notify the employers they didn't pick.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
"Considering several job offers at the same time" is common? Sheesh. [Turns green with jealousy]
I'd settle for one.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
"Considering several job offers at the same time" is common? Sheesh. [Turns green with jealousy]
I'd settle for one.
Round here, if you're on benefits ("jobseekers allowance") you're expected to have several applications running at the same time, or you may have your benefits stopped.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, yes, and I suspect any serious job seeker would have several running at once; but you mentioned "considering job offers," which sounds like a job offer has been made.
I'd dearly LOVE a job offer at the moment. Just one.
(Well, actually I have one, but the people involved have been dragging their feet since April on actually giving me a start date, and I've decided to live my life as if the offer did not exist. If they come to a decision, we'll see.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It seems to be standard nowadays, or at least here in Finland, that a company won't even reply that they've received your application. Very vexing. I also heard that some employers see it as a bad thing if you' ve worked for the same company for more than a few years. Is that true? If so, I find it odd.
Very common here in the US as well. Even when you are called in for a face-to-face interview, if you don't get the job you won't hear back. The first you'll learn you didn't get the position is when you read about the new hire in some professional newsletter. Churches, btw, are the absolute worst about this-- probably cuz personnel matters are handled by volunteers rather than HR professionals. But even big corporations now seem to routinely skip this (what used to be standard) courtesy.
I suspect No Prophet is not one of those inconsiderate employers, but is bearing the impact of that bad behavior on the part of his peers. (Look at the job seekers thread on another board to see how common this is). The majority of employers who treat job applicants like cogs in the employment machine (rather than human beings with lives and families to think about) set the tone for the relationship-- which is why employees come to teach potential employers in the same way, no need to provide the courtesy of letting them know "I found something else."
[ 14. August 2015, 14:38: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
What I have learned is people hate to say no to anything, so they just ignore the offer or, in the case of an employee, do not send letters of rejection.
I can understand no prophet's frustration only I have often been on the other end. I have and interview, then a second interview and then nothing. It has happened more than once.
I even went so far as to ask one prospective employer why I did not hear back. He said he just hates to send letters of rejection. Don't think I would want to work for such a person anyway.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is a starting office job, looking at business diploma recent graduates.
Not to excuse any rudeness for not returning calls or not showing up for the job. And not to suggest that you should ever expect to not start at the bottom of your chosen profession (and I don't mean that as a knock on administrative assistants- a good one is invaluable).
But have you always used this pool to fill your "office job" needs? I'm just thinking that, if you had just graduated from business school with aspirations of working your way up from the bottom on the business end of a business, and you showed up at an interview to discover that you really didn't need your degree to do the work, and that you were really going to be an administrative assistant, you might decide to go back to the job boards.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... So now we're starting round 3. I have been in business for 24 years. What's going on? We have had excellent retention. The last time we hired was 7 years ago. Is this bad luck or is something different with the young, new prospective employees?
Yes, especially among those privileged enough to go on to college or university. You're dealing with a population of precious unique snowflakes who have never had to solve their own problems or deal with the consequences of their fuckups. Their parents were obsessed with scheduling tutoring / skateboard lessons / Mandarin / ballet and bought them anything they asked for, so they never worked at a crappy part-time or summer job. They don't know the mechanics of showing up on time properly dressed, doing what you're told, accepting criticism, dealing with the public, etc. They're awesome at Dropbox and Vimeo, but they have no clue how to run a photocopier, use a spreadsheet, use proper business English, or answer a phone. Heck, some of them don't even bother turning in their timesheets for MONTHS at a time, and don't bother to check if they were paid correctly.
A guest editorial in our student newspaper stated that it was simply not worth the trouble to write a cover letter for a $10/hour cafeteria job. The author couldn't make it to an interview for another job when called, and OMG they didn't wait, they hired someone else. Can you believe it???? How unfair!!!!
A colleague of mine had to dump a new hire before the probation period was even over. She discovered that the employee was unable to do many of the things claimed on the resume, and found out later that a friend of the employee had written -- and significantly padded -- the resume and cover letter.
My only suggestion is to stop looking at the education section of the resumes and short-list anyone with work experience in retail or fast-food. And most importantly, prepare questions and call their references!!!!
Employers are different now too, but I think that deserves a thread of its own.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
A guest editorial in our student newspaper stated that it was simply not worth the trouble to write a cover letter for a $10/hour cafeteria job.
Yeah, cause that $10.00 an hour cafeteria job is totally going to put a dent in your student loans, pay rent, and allow you to save enough to survive a year of unplanned unemployment.
I'm not saying there aren't entitled people out there. I'm just saying that people bash millennials without considering how economic realities are different these days. My dad took a cafeteria job in school and it paid his tuition. Not so much anymore.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
$10 an hour cafeteria job? Bloody hell. Cafeteria jobs are likely to pay minimum wage, and minimum wage is not $10 an hour in very many places. Indeed I believe the State of Oklahoma has passed a law making it illegal for municipalities to have a higher minimum wage than the federal. Gotta keep the serfs down.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Minimum wage is somewhere in the vicinity of $11/hr. Jobs in small offices like our's typically start $3 less than we offer which is lots more than that. Plus we have bought insurance and benefit plans for employees. The accountant tells us that our real costs are ~23/hr for this job. We only have 3 office staff. We have had older workers apply and have hired in the past. Age is no issue. The office manager was hired as an older adult.
We contact everyone. Yes some of the emails are boiler plate. Personal if we have interviewed. But I am of the opinion that everyone deserves respect of contact. That is how small business operates.
[ 14. August 2015, 17:16: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Another generational shift: job hopping is the new normal for younger workers. There is a lot of stagnation at the top, so it is harder to move up within your firm, and economic instability has lead many of us to believe that the idea that you might actually be able to hold on to one job for your entire career is a pipe dream.
This gets interesting when the hiring manager is from an older generation. Part of the challenge is explaining to someone why you aren't a total nut or a total flake for wanting to make a lateral move.
(Edit to add- maybe this is why young people are hesitant to accept the "office worker" position- you may see it as a first step towards a lifetime of employment at your company, but the worker wants to be sure that if something happens to your company or if the culture isn't a good fit, he or she has at least made a step forward on the path to a rewarding career.)
[ 14. August 2015, 19:09: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Yeah, cause that $10.00 an hour cafeteria job is totally going to put a dent in your student loans, pay rent, and allow you to save enough to survive a year of unplanned unemployment.
I'm not saying there aren't entitled people out there. I'm just saying that people bash millennials without considering how economic realities are different these days. My dad took a cafeteria job in school and it paid his tuition. Not so much anymore.
Well, a $10/hour job will make more of a dent than $0/hour holding out for ... what? A rewarding year of unemployment? That's economic reality too. When we advertised those cafeteria jobs at my unit, all but one student said the work was beneath them. The one student who was interested was .... wait for it ... a music student. Musicians learn about economic reality at an early age. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) And fortunately, there are lots of millennials who come from less-privileged backgrounds who are amazing people precisely because they've had to bust their asses for every accomplishment.
ETA: mousethief, those are teeny tiny falling Canadian dollars
[ 14. August 2015, 19:19: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Alright, so $10.00 an hour gets you $19,200 a year, assuming that you can get 40 hours a week ( ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ) and that you don't have time off.
Take out rent, taxes, utilities, food, other necessary expenses and...
Yeah, not even touching the $30,000.00 in loans that an average graduate has these days. Hell, you aren't even making a living wage in my town. (That's $22,436 / year before taxes; food service people here make on average $19,180.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Plus we have bought insurance and benefit plans for employees. The accountant tells us that our real costs are ~23/hr for this job. We only have 3 office staff. We have had older workers apply and have hired in the past. Age is no issue. The office manager was hired as an older adult.
I am of the opinion that everyone deserves respect of contact. That is how small business operates.
I see three potential solutions in your comments, some of which you may already be doing -
1. Advertise the job is "with benefits" and mention low turnover. Both indicate this isn't intended as a summer job.
2. Specifically *advertise* welcome to older applicants. There are lots of 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s who would love a stable job in a decent environment and are already well trained in work world ways.
3. Make sure your screening specifically looks for respectfulness. Smaller places offer respect to customers and that "family" feel among staff. What they don't usually offer is a career ladder. You want to attract people looking for a place to stay, not for a ladder to climb.
As someone upthread suggested, business trainees might not be the only or best place for you to seek employees.
Are you looking for employees only in areas that miss people like Lamb Chopped - well trained in business office skills not by a school but by experience?
The job hunt world is frustrating on both sides. Always has been. Huge time drain uncertain to provide results.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Minimum wage is somewhere in the vicinity of $11/hr. Jobs in small offices like our's typically start $3 less than we offer which is lots more than that. Plus we have bought insurance and benefit plans for employees. The accountant tells us that our real costs are ~23/hr for this job. We only have 3 office staff. We have had older workers apply and have hired in the past. Age is no issue. The office manager was hired as an older adult.
We contact everyone. Yes some of the emails are boiler plate. Personal if we have interviewed. But I am of the opinion that everyone deserves respect of contact. That is how small business operates.
Absolutely. You sound like an old-school employer back in the days when employers realized they NEED their laborers and showed them the respect they deserve as human beings, if not as team-members.
Unfortunately, your job applicants don't know that. They don't know that you're a different sort of employer. They've been conditioned by dozens (or hundreds, in my husband's case) of employers who didn't even bother sending them a "dear loser" email when they didn't get the job or who notified them of a lay off via email or when they were met by a security guard to assist them in packing up their personal belongings.
Sorry you're having such a bad experience. If we lived closer, I could refer a dozen or so good workers to you.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
heck, if I lived there i'd apply. not getting anywhere here. excuse lack of caps, frenetic puppy on arm
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The one who left this job, we sent her on courses, we encouraged her development fully knowing she would develop skills to outgrow us. She is available to train the new person and we know all about her new job. I have absolutely no problem with such career development and that we are only a step along the way. BTW, it is not legal for us to specify any personal characteristics like age etc. And wouldn't anyway. The applicants could get their skills by experience and we would hire based on that but it seems to default to this young group with this training.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Depending on where you are, you may be allowed to use language in your advertisement such as, "We welcome applications from all qualified applicants, regardless of age, race, whatever blah blah blah."
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I understand you want to be open to all applicants and need to reflect that in your advertising-- but I think the suggestion to make it clear you are open to older applicants (and you should be) is a good one. After being courted for jobs in my 30s and 40s, it has been heartbreaking to see how that all dries up when you turn 50. Jobs you are qualified for, would have worked hard at, are going to folks 20, 30 years younger. Yes, I know employers think overqualified 50-somethings will leave or retire on them-- but the fact is, we're apt to stick around a lot longer than the 20 and 30 year olds who are working their way up the ladder. Many of us have gotten so discouraged (including DH) it's hard to get motivated to even apply. An employer who makes it a point of knowing they will really consider an older applicant will be inundated with qualified, hard-working applicants. This is not meaning to bash the younger gen at all-- I teach that group, and they are hard-working too, and often given an unfair rap. Just saying don't discount those over 50.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Depending on where you are, you may be allowed to use language in your advertisement such as, "We welcome applications from all qualified applicants, regardless of age, race, whatever blah blah blah."
We have all that.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Depending on where you are, you may be allowed to use language in your advertisement such as, "We welcome applications from all qualified applicants, regardless of age, race, whatever blah blah blah."
We have all that.
Sure-- because virtually every job, advertised everywhere, says that-- in pretty much those exact words. Because in most places it's required by law to say so. But those of us over 50 know that's only a line you gotta say-- we know it doesn't really mean you really welcome applications from anyone regardless of age. We've heard the line so many times, and yet been told too many times "oh, you wouldn't want this job, this is really for someone just starting out..." that we don't really take you seriously when all you do is parrot the standard government-mandated line.
So if you, in fact, DO mean it-- then please-- say it. Add a line beyond the required "all applicants welcome" line to say "we welcome older applicants". Honestly, you will be surprised at the results.
[ 15. August 2015, 00:56: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
To be fair, employers here have treated job applicants poorly for a long time, not even acknowledging the application with an email. Big companies will have a process to do that. However many companies here are inundated with applications. The big online job boards post ads, and many people apply for everything. So where you once would get 40 resumes, now you get a thousand, most of which are completely unqualified.
The situation here is weird, the natural tendency to discriminate against older programmers is being offset by a sudden demand for bodies. Unfortunately the latter is cyclical where the former just keeps getting worse.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The situation here is weird, the natural tendency to discriminate against older programmers is being offset by a sudden demand for bodies. Unfortunately the latter is cyclical where the former just keeps getting worse.
Which is why I got out of programming altogether and changed job fields entirely. Nobody wanted to hire a 50 year old programmer, even with 25 years of solid experience and a brand-new Assoc. tech degree chock full of new skills. I just wasn't employable, and was sick of being unemployed. Benefits had long run out and it was time to cut losses and seek a new line of work. Do I miss it? A little. It was a hell of a lot less work, and a good deal more money.
[ 15. August 2015, 06:11: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Another generational shift: job hopping is the new normal for younger workers.
Probably because regarding workers as disposable commodities is also the new normal.
As others have said, No Prophet sounds like a decent employer, but if business culture in general does not show loyalty to employees, it's hardly surprising that employees don't feel any particular bond to their paymasters.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I got an email from an employer the other day, blind cc to everyone who applied for the post, giving a date certain for when interview decisions would be made. I know all employers aren't that on the ball, but it's nice to know when you can get on with your life.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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leftfieldlover
Shipmate
# 13467
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Posted
My son gained his Phd last year and since then has applied for countless jobs - research, magazines, admin... and most of the time he doesn't even get a response. When he has been interviewed (once or twice) he has been informed he has failed to get the job. He has told me that he has come into contact with so many people whose jobs he could do so much better. What on earth can he do?
Posts: 164 | From: oxford | Registered: Feb 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have one of those PhDs too. The solution for me was self employment. No training prepared me for that. It's a personality and anxiety tolerance thing. Key issues were risk tolerance ie could lose everything financially, preparedness to work 75 hours per week, living very simply and saving up some money in advance. I had 2 preschool kids at the time and wife was at university. The key one is risk tolerance and ability to sleep, knowing that all your assets are potentially lost.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
What I have learned is people hate to say no to anything, so they just ignore the offer or, in the case of an employee, do not send letters of rejection.
It might be that but the climate has changed. The days are gone when you'd receive a courteous letter in the post acknowledging your application, and either inviting you for interview and explaining how you could claim travel expenses to the interview location, or else a courteous letter explaining that owing to an exceptionally large pool of outstanding candidates it had been extremely difficult to choose between you but with great regret etc etc. This is as much about spending money on postage as it is about the thought of an unhappy candidate taking them to court. You might still get a rejection email, though.
Job hunting is no longer a matter of buying the local paper and scanning the Sits Vac column at the back. Now it's all online and you have to know what keywords to use - so the jobs with more obscure job titles, some of which you might, to your surprise, be qualified to apply for, won't come up. References are increasingly "name, rank and serial number" because anything else could potentially lay a company open to litigation.
And there are social networking sites like LinkedIn which are frankly useless unless you're a seriously ambitious type, heavily into networking, who signs up for virtual seminars and connects with lots of people, especially recruiters. The suggested personalized job lists are rarely much use. (Senior Legionella Specialist, anyone?)
Modern office culture has changed since many of us started work in the 70s and 80s. It's far more politically correct and focused on personal development. The days when you could come in, do a job to the best of your ability and go home have pretty much gone as well: now you're probably expected to have a quota of personal objectives, take on extra-curricular projects, develop a peripheral knowledge base around the job and go on a minimum quota of courses annually (most of which are not directly relevant to your job) so that you can show how motivated you are and keen on personal development. There may even be professional qualifications or degrees in your job subject these days which you won't get far without.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've got one of those PhDs too, and it's been no use in job hunting at all--quite the reverse.
I've considered--heck, I'm doing--self-employment, but the bit that trips me up is that I have no gifts whatsoever for administration and marketing. I really need an office-type person to do that crap and crack the whip over me as well when needed. That's the only way I'll ever make it to the financial equivalent of having a fulltime job with benefits. But so far I haven't found one (a suitable paperwork and lion tamer, I mean).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
My son gained his Phd last year [..] He has told me that he has come into contact with so many people whose jobs he could do so much better. What on earth can he do?
PhDs are awkward - if you have one, you're overqualified for most jobs, but not yet really qualified for academia.
Employers often look at a PhD and assume that its holder won't want to stick around doing the job that anyone with an undergraduate degree could do.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I'm not good at networking but back a couple decades I when I was job hunting for a career change I asked random people on the bus or lunch place "how did you find your career and job" and 90% said "I fell into it." Story after story, not of careful career planning or "I always wanted to be a...", but of coincidences, most often a friend heard of an opening for "something I bet you'd like."
Not impersonal connections like linked-in, but personal connections: friend, friend of friend.
If you haven't already, think of how to chat about the job informally to friends at church, at the bowling club, when with other parents at a kid's sports game, not "do you know anyone who wants a job" but the chit chat we all do about what's going in in our lives. Sigh, you had no idea it would by so hard to find an employee for your small business office.
Talk more about the environment than the specific skills, the ways a small business is different that appeal to some workers. Word just might get to someone who would love that job. While you continue the usual methods. Networking doesn't always work.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
He has told me that he has come into contact with so many people whose jobs he could do so much better.
Well, with respect, that's easy to say but difficult to prove.
And if that attitude comes across when he's applying for work it's not going to do him any favours.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It seems to be standard nowadays, or at least here in Finland, that a company won't even reply that they've received your application. Very vexing. I also heard that some employers see it as a bad thing if you' ve worked for the same company for more than a few years. Is that true? If so, I find it odd.
My daughter-in-law, who lives in New York City and works in online communications, is on her fourth employer in three years. Each position is a step up. I don't know if working in the same place for a long time is a handicap, but the converse, I'm told, is absolutely normal, at least in her field.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
My daughter-in-law, who lives in New York City and works in online communications, is on her fourth employer in three years. Each position is a step up. ...absolutely normal, at least in her field.
Yeow, when I worked in human resources the wisdom was finding and hiring a new employee is expensive, you do not want a job hopper, and you treat the ones you have well so they'll want to stay instead of looking around.
But the corporate world has changed a lot. Many companies don't believe in internal promotions, in many places you have to change jobs to get a raise or promotion.
And in some fields people are hired on a project basis. The job offer is only for the duration of the project, 3 months or two years; then a new team is assembled for the next project. It's not people being hired but specific technical skill sets.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
It's madness. Don't happened job security? If you're job hopping how can you get a mortgage or anything like that? I've been working for the same company for ten years now.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It used to be that employers regarded anyone who changed jobs frequently as unstable. Now it's seen as a good thing that people are willing to broaden their experience and get variety, whereas people who stay in the same job for some time can be perceived as lacking motivation and ambition and are resistant to change. They can become part of the furniture if they stay too long. Some time in the future the pendulum will swing the other way and steadiness will be valued again, but now it's all about variety, background experience, transferable skills, etc.
As for getting a mortgage, house prices have gone up sufficiently to make that an unrealistic ambition for many people now anyway. Renting is where it is.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
There are many things wrong with the current culture of employers. I count myself lucky if I get a rejection e-mail after travelling for an interview. A rejection e-mail just after a resume application is a sign of a decent employer. I understand you do not want to talk to frustrated people, that's what e-mail and mail merge are for. However saying that "it's over" definitively after I have gone to the trouble of travelling to your place of business is just good manners.
The most insidious development though is the rise of contract work and precarious employment over the last 30 years. Anything but being a "permanent employee". Except that is what government policy and employment standards are geared to support.
To say "a job is a job" is to entirely miss the point, a job on contract that ends in a few months is NOT the same as a permanent one where you can save some money and set up a life for yourself.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
My son gained his Phd last year [..] He has told me that he has come into contact with so many people whose jobs he could do so much better. What on earth can he do?
PhDs are awkward - if you have one, you're overqualified for most jobs, but not yet really qualified for academia.
Employers often look at a PhD and assume that its holder won't want to stick around doing the job that anyone with an undergraduate degree could do.
Older workers have a similar problem. Employers don't want to pat extra for experience and assume the older person won't stay in a job that pays less than they used to earn.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Employers often look at a PhD and assume that its holder won't want to stick around doing the job that anyone with an undergraduate degree could do.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Older workers have a similar problem. Employers don't want to pat extra for experience and assume the older person won't stay in a job that pays less than they used to earn.
And then there's older workers with PhD's...
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
[ 17. August 2015, 03:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Fabricate Diem PVNC
Apprentice
# 18459
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Posted
I now run a funky cafe, employing people to work there is hard. I describe my ideal worker as an octopus who can juggle while simultaneously telling a good joke. Had three young people on trials, one twice, who didn't work out. As a very small business I can't afford more than a couple of dozen hours a week of staff but as an ex teacher and a whole bunch of other stuff, I can give people excellent work experience, help looking for next job etc (I have helped one staff member get into higher education, she starts in a month and I'm short staffed now!) but I find getting good people with excellent people skills really tough. I now give prospective trial people three oranges and tell them that when they return for their paid trial in a few days, I want to see them do 6 'passes' juggling the oranges. If they try, even if they fail, you case the effort they put in and I am more likely to hire them.
Can I also add that when you hire a young enthusiastic person at the start of summer break, they will accurately tell you they have nothing planned over the summer so they can work every week. Of course as soon as you start paying them, they have the money for festivals and having fun and suddenly they are not available at rather short notice.... Exactly what I would have done at their age, but it doesn't make it any easier!
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Remember, these views are not necessarily those of someone professional, informed, knowledgeable or who bothers to read your post properly before replying....
Posts: 4 | From: Earth | Registered: Aug 2015
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
It is a long time since I have had experience of "real world" employment,as opposed to academia, but I have seen a number of summer students come through the lab, and some of those have some very odd ideas about what is expected of them - timekeeping is a common issue, as is sticking power. Thankfully after some real duffers we now have a seriously good one, but are trying to dissuade him from doing a PhD here as Pointy Haired Boss is so poisonous to people's careers.
Speaking from the perspective of someone in academia, it's a clusterfuck. Everyone is one short-term contracts, everyone is worried. I'm senior technical staff and supposed to be on an open-ended contract, meaning that money will be found if the current grant runs out, as I'm supposed to be here for the long term. Based on that we started housebuying and, in common with every other time we've done so, something went horribly wrong. Pointy Haired Boss has decided that he's running out of money, and I'm first to go because he knows I don't like it.
He told me this on June 1st to give me six months notice instead of three. I will finally get a meeting with an "HR Business Partner" on September 2nd - three months with the sword of Damocles hanging over my head! How good has that made me feel? Like a piece of poo dangling from the department's anus. This place is a festering crap hole to work for and it's not as though it's a small university either - we are talking top three in the world large Dark Blue UK university here. Meanwhile we exchange contracts at much the same time as the meeting where I find out whether the open ended contract has any meaning, or is just a Chamberlain-esque piece of paper.
Meanwhile I cannot get an interview outside said university for love nor money. I've had agencies approach me for roles paying as little as £17000 (that's about 40% below what I'm currently earning), and now that we have the mortgage I cannot afford to take a pay cut. Yes, we did think of that when we started but with house prices rising again, both of us past 40, we felt we had no choice but to buy now, or rent for the rest of our days.
I think that's pretty inchoate - I'll stop now as relief for anyone still reading.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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