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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Andrew, Justin and George
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
With apologies to Marvin Gaye:
You're warmongers
Andrew,
Justin
and
George
just like Jesus who was the God of the Old Testament wasn't He?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I doubt we'll hear "Religious leaders ought to stay out of politics" for a while then.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Martin60, you are following the wrong religion. Try Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's TM-Sidhi perhaps? The "Extended Maharishi Effect" emanating from this practice apparently cures violence, whether of crime or war, in the surrounding society.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
There is no postmodern Jesus. Rather, postmodernism allows for infinite conceptions of Jesus. You can have your own personal Jesus. However expecting others to become martyrs in service to your own personal Jesus is rather arrogant. The only potential martyr for your own personal Jesus is you.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So why did George change his mind? From 'you cannot end violence with violence'.
Which one's yours? The bipolar homicidal hippy?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
One cannot end violence with violence, but one can stop violence from succeeding with violence.
There is a difference between presenting the other cheek and offering your neck for decapitation.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well considering that the same bloke who said "turn the other cheek" did indeed "offer his neck for decapitation", good luck with arguing that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I wouldn't have thought it was particularly surprising that leaders of the religion that developed just war theory would occasionally consider that a war is just.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well considering that the same bloke who said "turn the other cheek" did indeed "offer his neck for decapitation", good luck with arguing that.
That's a predictable response, but still an misleading one. Whatever one may think the crucifixion was about, it certainly was not about letting the Romans and/or the Jewish establishment have their way. Much less was it about limply accepting genocide or religious and cultural elimination. Considered purely on political terms, I would say it even was an offensive move. Jesus clearly was seeking the public confrontation, rather than avoiding it. If you already lived as dhimmi under a powerful tyrannical Muslim regime that is asphyxiating Christianity, then publicly offering you neck for decapitation by the Islamic authorities might be a similar move to what Jesus did. When such Muslim forces are still trying to overrun your people in order to subjugate you in this manner, then it is not the time yet for such desperate measures. Then you stand up and fight, or at a minimum get out of the way of those that still do.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
So poor old Andrew, Justin and George get demonised, while there's not a peep in the OP about the warmongering, sadistic sexual violence and death-cult of IS. Funny old world, isn't it? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I suppose those Jews who desperately fought back against the Third Reich at the storming of the Warsaw Ghetto were 'warmongers' too. Not following the Sermon on the Mount, were they?
Anyway, this is old news. Andrew, Justin and George made all these pronouncements last summer, according to the links. So you can rest easy, Martin, nobody is listening to the 'warmongering' church anyway. There are no ground troops going in. Meanwhile, Andrew White's organisation actually helps the victims of war violence and their children.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well considering that the same bloke who said "turn the other cheek" did indeed "offer his neck for decapitation", good luck with arguing that.
That's a predictable response, but still an misleading one.
So who would Jesus kill?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So Christians were wrong for the first three centuries, then they got their minds right? Enabling them to prevent the Warsaw Ghetto without peacefully resisting evil for 1700 years. How effective that's been. Not limp at all. Being utterly gutlessly supine in the face of Caesar be he Roman, German, American, Jewish or Arab.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So who would Jesus kill?
I cannot see Him killing ANYONE. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Or sanctioning all the horrible ways in which we kill each other. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But let's say I'm a Jewish woman in Warsaw, in 1943, and the tanks are rolling straight towards the wall, and my compatriots are ready with hand-guns and Molotov cocktails. I'd have joined in too. A pathetic band against the might of the Reich, but we'll fight to the last man - and woman.
Find it hard to believe that Jesus would judge anyone in that situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So Christians were wrong for the first three centuries, then they got their minds right?
I don't think anyone is actually saying that, are they? It's just that these are not exactly easy issues to resolve.
Humans have been perfecting the art of war over centuries, culminating in the 20th century creation of weapons that could destroy us and the planet. In all honesty, I don't know how centuries of Christian pacifism could have prevented that dubious 'progress'. Our witness might have been more effective and less tarnished. But how can we stop the human race from being war-like? It's in our genes. Good old evolutionary determinism, surely.
quote:
How effective that's been. Not limp at all. Being utterly gutlessly supine in the face of Caesar be he Roman, German, American, Jewish or Arab.
Wringing one's hands over how awful we've been (and there's no doubt we have been, and continue to be) doesn't strike me as being all that effective either. Sorry. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So who would Jesus kill?
I cannot see Him killing ANYONE.
Which is your answer.
If we are to become more Christlike, then we need to follow the example of Christ. No one said it was going to be easy. Quite the opposite, in fact.
(And, of course, I agree with you. I'm a fallen human being, with enough compassion to identify with the victims of violence, and not enough to identify with the perpetrators)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So who would Jesus kill?
You mean, who did Jesus kill, by virtue of orthodox Incarnation-Trinity? The Amalekites, for example.
Club Marcion is over there where Martin60 is standing.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So Christians were wrong for the first three centuries, then they got their minds right?
Christians in the first three centuries were not in a position to defend "Christendom", because they had not established it yet. They continued to aggressively undermine the reigning system in the way Jesus had pioneered, until they finally took over the Roman empire. Then they had to switch gears, and did with the development of "just war theory" - soon with plenty of inspiration from our Muslim friends.
Calling the news of the resurrection of their "Son of God" (a title assumed by the Roman emperor) "evangelium" (as important announcements of that emperor were called) was basically the original political manifesto of the Jewish sect we belong to.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You mean, who did Jesus kill, by virtue of orthodox Incarnation-Trinity? The Amalekites, for example.
Is a bit of an oversimplification isn't it? You might argue that the slaughter of the Amalekites was ordered by YHWH through the intermediaries of Samuel and Saul, but not that the slaughter was at YHWH's hand directly. But you might argue that YHWH was in fact directly responsible for the death of the Egyptian first-born.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
YHWH also slew Onan and zapped Uzzah, for example. And carpet-bombed Sodom and Gomorrah. But you know, all that is just bronze age mythology, which Martin60 et al. have declared to be vastly inferior to the iron age scripture. And that in turn is vastly inferior to the silicon age interpretation thereof.
[ 04. August 2015, 11:52: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The question's still there if you want to answer it. If it's too hard for you, there's no shame in admitting it - I find it almost impossible.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
(And, of course, I agree with you. I'm a fallen human being, with enough compassion to identify with the victims of violence, and not enough to identify with the perpetrators)
Indeed ... and I certainly don't want to become like the perpetrators ...
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
YHWH also slew Onan and zapped Uzzah, for example. And carpet-bombed Sodom and Gomorrah. But you know, all that is just bronze age mythology, which Martin60 et al. have declared to be vastly inferior to the iron age scripture. And that in turn is vastly inferior to the silicon age interpretation thereof.
I am not a fan of Club Marcion and would never dismiss the OT as 'just bronze age mythology'. All the same, there's no denying that Jesus's MO is quite a bit different (and superior) from that of the Canaan jihad (which, in any case, let's not forget, was a one-off in Israel's history). The message of the Prophets, by way of contrast, is higher, deeper and richer, and applicable to all of us, not just Israel in a certain time and place. It's not that I dismiss the OT, or think that silicon age interpretations are all that. It's that I think there is a higher Covenant still, of which Jesus is the mediator, which builds on the Old Covenant but also surpasses it.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The question's still there if you want to answer it. If it's too hard for you, there's no shame in admitting it - I find it almost impossible.
The question has already been answered. Marcion was a heretic. The parables of Jesus taken as a whole are entirely consistent with the OT. Never once does Jesus argue that all violence is wrong. On the contrary, the just rulers in the parables of Jesus use violence all the time. Indeed the just kings in the OT use violence to defend their people. Not one single time does Jesus question their use of violence. Who would Jesus kill? The NT taken as a whole suggests Jesus will kill a multitude of people when His kingdom comes. Do I think Jesus would use violence to prevent ISIS from committing genocide if Jesus was an earthly ruler. My answer based on scripture, tradition, and reason is absolutely he would.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm glad for you that you find your answer convincing enough to permit you to take another's life. Would that I were similarly convinced.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The question's still there if you want to answer it. If it's too hard for you, there's no shame in admitting it - I find it almost impossible.
You are beholden of circumstance, namely the particular one of Jesus' life. However, I'm also exceedingly unlikely to put a bullet through the head of an ISIS fighter. I'm an academic who is well insulated from that sort of thing by social structures, at least for now. But it would be wrong to take my own living circumstances as proof positive that it is generally immoral to put a bullet through the head of an ISIS fighter. I can appreciate that there are circumstances where a soldier might do that licitly. Just like Jesus does not tell soldiers to throw down their arms and kill no more. He rather tells them to do their job with integrity (Lk 3:14).
If we want to think of Jesus killing, we have to avoid constructing scenarios at odds with His living circumstances. Otherwise the oddness we feel is to a large extent the same oddness I would feel if somebody put a gun in my hand and told me to kill some ISIS soldiers.
I expect Jesus would have stepped in within a civilian setting, if necessary with deadly force, where innocent life was under threat and the defence would have done more good than harm. So if you want me to construct some example, then some crazed Jew killing a child in front of Him may conceivably have met his maker at the hands of his maker.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think most of us can understand/appreciate the imperative to protect the innocent, if necessary by killing a blood-thirsty assailant.
The problem is that whenever War has been postulated as a solution to protect the innocent by the Western powers, it doesn't. It makes bad problems worse.
Given that, it is extremely hard to take seriously claims by religious leaders that "this" conflict is going to turn out any different to all those other bad conflicts in the last 20 years.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I expect Jesus would have stepped in within a civilian setting, if necessary with deadly force, where innocent life was under threat and the defence would have done more good than harm.
Or He might have sat on his haunches, drawing in the dust. Oh, hang on...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
All the same, there's no denying that Jesus's MO is quite a bit different (and superior) from that of the Canaan jihad (which, in any case, let's not forget, was a one-off in Israel's history).
MO=Modus Operandi? Politically speaking, Jesus established a kind of social guerrilla warfare against both the Roman occupiers and the Jewish establishment. He did not seek a direct confrontation, that is correct. But again, politically speaking that was simply good strategy. Countless failed Jewish rebellions showed that going one-on-one with them was just suicide. But the gospel and indeed the rest of the NT is about as in your face and confrontational to both Roman and Jewish powers as an underground movement with a long-term plan could make them, and when we (post-)Christians today say that we don't want to make a martyr of somebody we are basically identifying how Christians used self-sacrifice to boost their numbers and destabilise their opponents in what back then was a completely novel and counter-intuitive approach.
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
The message of the Prophets, by way of contrast, is higher, deeper and richer, and applicable to all of us, not just Israel in a certain time and place.
Applicable to all of us, you say?
"I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth," says the LORD. "I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. I will overthrow the wicked; I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth," says the LORD. " - Zephaniah 1:2-3
But seriously now, the prophets are full with the doom and gloom of warfare and Divine punishment. Read Amos and tell me about his vision of peace, love and happiness, if you will.
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
It's that I think there is a higher Covenant still, of which Jesus is the mediator, which builds on the Old Covenant but also surpasses it.
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think that it is a "pacifist" New Covenant. God for one continues sniping the wicked (ask Herod, Ananias and Sapphira) and in the final harvest of God's wrath we will see that "blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse's bridle, for one thousand six hundred stadia." (Rev 14:20) It's of course silly to calculate how many people you have to bleed dry to get that much blood, but I'm pretty sure that this is supposed to mean mass death. Incidentally, who starts the carnage? Why, it is "one like a Son of Man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand." (Rev 14:14)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm struggling to see why we're so appalled by IS if we see God like this.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
So poor old Andrew, Justin and George get demonised, while there's not a peep in the OP about the warmongering, sadistic sexual violence and death-cult of IS. Funny old world, isn't it?
Yes, how dare every single article about violence not mention every single violent person or group? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm struggling to see why we're so appalled by IS if we see God like this.
Hear.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Given that, it is extremely hard to take seriously claims by religious leaders that "this" conflict is going to turn out any different to all those other bad conflicts in the last 20 years.
This is a fair point. However, it is a practical point, not one of principle. And as far as human practice is concerned, we should be careful not to demand perfection as necessary condition for action. Humans rarely fail to fail, but that does not relieve us from the duty to keep trying.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I expect Jesus would have stepped in within a civilian setting, if necessary with deadly force, where innocent life was under threat and the defence would have done more good than harm.
Or He might have sat on his haunches, drawing in the dust. Oh, hang on...
Oh, hang on, what? Jesus was not defending innocent life against an assailant there, he was messing with the Jewish sentencing of someone who was guilty (and deserved death, in terms of normal judicial practice), when placed into the position of a judge by Mosaic law. That's very interesting, but also very much a different matter.
Anyway, if you want to sit on your haunches in front of some ISIS unit, drawing in the dust to stop them - why don't you just go right ahead?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This is a fair point. However, it is a practical point, not one of principle. And as far as human practice is concerned, we should be careful not to demand perfection as necessary condition for action. Humans rarely fail to fail, but that does not relieve us from the duty to keep trying.
Madness is repeatedly trying things that don't work and expecting the results to be different.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm struggling to see why we're so appalled by IS if we see God like this.
Because IS is not God, and only God is master of life and death.
I'm struggling to see why we would worship God if we think that we can judge Him on equal terms with human groups.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Anyway, if you want to sit on your haunches in front of some ISIS unit, drawing in the dust to stop them - why don't you just go right ahead?
I didn't say it would stop them. I said it was following the example of Christ.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Because IS is not God, and only God is master of life and death.
I'm struggling to see why we would worship God if we think that we can judge Him on equal terms with human groups.
Right, but surely the point is that if we can't discount the actions of IS as inherently ungodly (i.e. God wouldn't ask people to do shit like that, because that's nasty and God isn't), then what standard can we use to measure the IS claim that they are working for the deity? Doesn't that take out one simple plank?
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arse
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The NT taken as a whole suggests Jesus will kill a multitude of people when His kingdom comes. Do I think Jesus would use violence to prevent ISIS from committing genocide if Jesus was an earthly ruler. My answer based on scripture, tradition, and reason is absolutely he would.
I am not a pacifist, but I cannot agree with this. Do I think Jesus will judge people? Yes. Do I think that His judgement is just like our violence? No, I don't. It is ridiculous and obscene, IMO, to imagine Jesus sanctioning the use of bombs, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm struggling to see why we're so appalled by IS if we see God like this.
It does make one wonder. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I don't think we're wrong to resist someone who is trying to impose extreme violence on us, and I don't believe Jesus thinks we're wrong to resist. But I baulk, I truly baulk, at projecting our own awful violence back onto Him. Sheesh, He's not called the Prince of Peace for nothing!!!
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes, how dare every single article about violence not mention every single violent person or group?
Martin's outrage seems to give the impression that the likes of Andrew White are no better than IS.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Martin's outrage seems to give the impression that the likes of Andrew White are no better than IS.
That's quite unfair. One can obviously object vociferously about Andrew White, particularly from within his faith community, without suggesting he is actually the same as IS, the Nazis or whoever.
I think Andrew White is a genuine guy, when I met him he was nice to me. But I think he is totally wrong on most of what he says about Iraq. That doesn't mean he is on the same moral level as IS.
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arse
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That's quite unfair. One can obviously object vociferously about Andrew White, particularly from within his faith community, without suggesting he is actually the same as IS, the Nazis or whoever.
I think Andrew White is a genuine guy, when I met him he was nice to me. But I think he is totally wrong on most of what he says about Iraq. That doesn't mean he is on the same moral level as IS.
Indeed not, but why are you saying this to me? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) It's Martin who thinks White is the warmonger. I think nothing of the sort. (And I wouldn't necessarily agree with White on Iraq either, for the record).
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm struggling to see why we're so appalled by IS if we see God like this.
Because IS is not God, and only God is master of life and death.
I'm struggling to see why we would worship God if we think that we can judge Him on equal terms with human groups.
And I struggle to see why we would worship a bloodthirsty, sadistic, homicidal maniac God.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Because IS is not God, and only God is master of life and death.
I'm struggling to see why we would worship God if we think that we can judge Him on equal terms with human groups.
Right, but surely the point is that if we can't discount the actions of IS as inherently ungodly (i.e. God wouldn't ask people to do shit like that, because that's nasty and God isn't), then what standard can we use to measure the IS claim that they are working for the deity? Doesn't that take out one simple plank?
Exactly. If we allow that Joshua was acting for God, we cannot inherently discount the possibility that IS, doing much the same sort of thing, are also doing so. Not to mention Elijah's bit of religious murder of the prophets of Baal.
But we've been here before so often that I wonder it's not been declared a dead horse.
[ 04. August 2015, 16:04: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Indeed not, but why are you saying this to me? It's Martin who thinks White is the warmonger. I think nothing of the sort. (And I wouldn't necessarily agree with White on Iraq either, for the record).
You seemed to suggest that Martin thinks White is the same morally as IS. I don't think that is the case, and indeed I object to this characterisation of a position you find unpalatable.
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arse
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Madness is repeatedly trying things that don't work and expecting the results to be different.
Who says that wars do not work? Of course they do. They may not tick all the idealistic boxes you have for them (or indeed they may be waged by people who intend to have rather different boxes ticked than you do). But there is little doubt that wars can achieve aims, and quite consistently so if one wins them.
What exactly do you expect to happen anyway if all military resistance to IS ceases? And just how principled are you about the non-militaristic approach? If re-reconquista comes to caliphate, would you rather be dhimmi than dead?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I expect Jesus would have stepped in within a civilian setting, if necessary with deadly force, where innocent life was under threat and the defence would have done more good than harm.
Or He might have sat on his haunches, drawing in the dust. Oh, hang on...
The story you reference likely wasn't in the original manuscript. I mention that because textual criticism is important to some wanting to argue that the historical Jesus was really the paragon of their cultural ideal until Paul and the Vatican distorted his message. Assuming the story was in the original manuscript, which I'm happy to do, it has no relevance to this topic. Are you arguing that Jesus would have continued to draw in the dust while the men stoned the woman? Should all men watch as other men kill women if verbal interventions fail? What about the police? Modern feminism as well as old fashioned chivalry both answer with a resounding no.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Who says that wars do not work? Of course they do. They may not tick all the idealistic boxes you have for them (or indeed they may be waged by people who intend to have rather different boxes ticked than you do). But there is little doubt that wars can achieve aims, and quite consistently so if one wins them.
Please illustrate how wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have achieved aims by the Western powers that 'won' them.
ISTM that modern wars have absolutely never achieved the aims of protecting the innocent, because modern warfare is unable to do that.
quote:
What exactly do you expect to happen anyway if all military resistance to IS ceases? And just how principled are you about the non-militaristic approach? If re-reconquista comes to caliphate, would you rather be dhimmi than dead?
That is a mix of different questions. For me, the logical question is to ask about our own motives and then to think of something that would actually work for the benefit of the innocent people caught up in the problem. In my view, a hi-tech military reaction would not achieve the ends of enfranchising and protecting the innocent.
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arse
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Modern feminism as well as old fashioned chivalry both answer with a resounding no.
I'm sure you're right. How would Jesus answer?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You seemed to suggest that Martin thinks White is the same morally as IS. I don't think that is the case, and indeed I object to this characterisation of a position you find unpalatable.
Fair enough. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Modern feminism as well as old fashioned chivalry both answer with a resounding no.
I'm sure you're right. How would Jesus answer?
Jesus said he had 12 legions of angels at His disposal, in Gethsamene. He chose not to employ them because He would not avoid the Cross. Who's to say He wouldn't have called on them, to protect that poor woman if the vengeful mob had ignored Him and tried to stone her?
I think He would have stopped them, yes - but not using our methods. Specifically not our violent methods.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Modern feminism as well as old fashioned chivalry both answer with a resounding no.
I'm sure you're right. How would Jesus answer?
Answer what?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Laurelin:
Who's to say He wouldn't have called on them, to protect that poor woman if the vengeful mob had ignored Him and tried to stone her?
He may have. How would the angels have protected the woman? Scripture suggests by some form of violence most likely involving fire.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Have you noticed that the three links go back to mid 2014?
Canon White has been out of Iraq since November 2014, for security reasons.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Laurelin - so Jesus' condemnation of killing is just to be ignored? It seems baffling to me how often evangelicals feel that Jesus' words on pacifism and poverty are just irrelevant to us. You either obey Jesus or you don't, surely?
Us not funding the arms industry would be a nice start.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Evangelicals at least bother to provide a proof text when making claims about the clear teaching of Jesus. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
He may have. How would the angels have protected the woman? Scripture suggests by some form of violence most likely involving fire.
Yet Jesus rebukes James and John for wanting to call down fire on the unrepentant towns. Upthread I referred to the Son to using a different (and higher) way to OT methods of divine justice. (I don't think that puts me in Club Marcion, but come on - there is a different tone and higher teaching introduced with the New Covenant).
Maybe the angels would have thrown a protective shield around her. (Oh boy - how very Harry Potter! But a similar thing seems to have happened when an angry crowd wanted to push Jesus over a cliff and He just walks calmly through them.)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Evangelicals at least bother to provide a proof text when making claims about the clear teaching of Jesus.
Of course they don't go all the way and provide nearly-always-existent equal and opposite proof-text, by way of intellectual honesty. Then again neither do non-evangelicals often admit the merits of their opposition. It's like people become absolute assholes when arguing about something. Go figure.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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