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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
It is said that his greatness lay in a peaceful transition to democracy but even that isn't true. The amount of political violence, much of it ANC violence, in the years of negotiation leading up to the 1994 elections was quite high.

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
It's very telling that the thankfully x Iron Lady regarded him as the leader of "a typical terrorist organisation"

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Originally posted by Cod:
I'm afraid this is such an elementary question it hardly deserves a response. You need to read up about the PAC, because they - and all out civil war - were the alternative.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
The ANC is not a saintly organisation and I well remember the ugly antics of Winnie Mandela, but the apartheid regime must bear the moral responsibility for a great deal of the blood and injustice. If you oppress a people for long enough, they WILL rise up against the regime that oppresses them and there WILL be violence. Human history proves this in spades.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
I don't know how old you were in 1994, but I was 32. I will never forget seeing in the media those long, long, long lines of black South Africans peacefully waiting to cast their vote, the fruits of a long, hard campaign for them to have the same rights as white people. Many of us were dreading a bloodbath, a civil war in South Africa, at that time ... and it didn't happen. This is due in no small part to Mandela's attitude: during his long years in prison, for example, he put aside any desire for revenge he might have had against white people.

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The bulk of the violence in South Africa was between different black anti Apartheid groups the ANC, the IFP APAZO and the PAC fighting each other for power.

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Right so you're saying that the reason for his greatness is that once he came to power he didn't launch a bloody ethnic conflict that would have resulted in carnage on all sides and would have completely wrecked the economy of South Africa, destroying the lives and livelihoods of those of his supporters who survived the conflict. In other words he didn't turn South Africa into the DRC. That's quite a low bar.

Mandela was one of the better post colonial African leaders but again that's a pretty low bar to pass and I've never understood all the hero worship of him.

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Posted by Bibliophile:
Right so you're saying that the reason for his greatness is that once he came to power he didn't launch a bloody ethnic conflict that would have resulted in carnage on all sides and would have completely wrecked the economy of South Africa, destroying the lives and livelihoods of those of his supporters who survived the conflict. In other words he didn't turn South Africa into the DRC. That's quite a low bar.

Mandela was one of the better post colonial African leaders but again that's a pretty low bar to pass and I've never understood all the hero worship of him.

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Right so you're saying that the reason for his greatness is that once he came to power he didn't launch a bloody ethnic conflict that would have resulted in carnage on all sides and would have completely wrecked the economy of South Africa, destroying the lives and livelihoods of those of his supporters who survived the conflict. In other words he didn't turn South Africa into the DRC. That's quite a low bar.

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Mandela was a mighty unifying force, and talked to his enemies. That is no small accomplishment. Your interpretation of recent history seems astonishingly shallow.

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
You think refusing to give into your desire for vengeance is easy when you have the power and there are people who support you who would cheer to see it? You think it is easy to see the people who murdered friends and colleagues go free because they told the truth about their crimes? To give up on the hope of justice for the sake of truth and forgiveness, do you have any idea what that costs?

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This.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Yeah, not like anyone here belongs to a religion that believes in forgiveness or redemption.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And while we're at it ...

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Posted by Bibliophile:
Right so you're saying that the reason for his greatness is that once he came to power he didn't launch a bloody ethnic conflict that would have resulted in carnage on all sides and would have completely wrecked the economy of South Africa, destroying the lives and livelihoods of those of his supporters who survived the conflict. In other words he didn't turn South Africa into the DRC. That's quite a low bar.

Mandela was one of the better post colonial African leaders but again that's a pretty low bar to pass and I've never understood all the hero worship of him.

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Bibliophile, I am beginning to be aware of an unfortunate pattern in your posting habits here. You begin with a controversial OP stating your own views and inviting comments. Then as the thread continues, you also seem to me to be more interested in stirring the pot (by provocative and dismissive responses such as above) than really engaging in discussion.

Now such behaviour, if it becomes a regular pattern in online discussions, has a name. It is called flame-baiting. And we actively discourage such patterns of behaviour here. Read Commandment 1.

So please watch your step re provocation - as opposed to genuine engagement. Else your behaviour will be referred to Admin for their view on the emerging pattern of posting.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Anyone who bothered to read his autobiography (which, admittedly, is quite long) would appreciate that the man who entered prison was an embittered guerilla warrior. I don't think one needs to "forget" that to appreciate that the guy chose to come out of prison and talk about leading a "rainbow" nation rather than leading a violent revolt. Which he could quite easily have done.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That said, most people forget or overlook that he was in jail for armed robbery

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Yes I can understand people agreeing with his opposition to apartheid, it was a terrible system, but I don't see any reason why Mandela is considered such an icon exceeding by far all other 'liberation struggle' leaders in Africa.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Yes I can understand people agreeing with his opposition to apartheid, it was a terrible system, but I don't see any reason why Mandela is considered such an icon exceeding by far all other 'liberation struggle' leaders in Africa.

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Success? What I'm perplexed by is your (claimed) confusion over hagiography of leaders of popular mass movements. It's commonplace enough throughout human history.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not sure what your point is, Bibliophile.
History is replete with people doing the impractical to the detriment of their cause/people because they felt they were right.
So doing the practical thing is not just meh. but it isn't that Mandela chose expediency. He could have chosen to negotiate but still hold a fire under those who committed wrong under apartheid. Instead, many walked free who strict justice would have in jail. There was plenty of room between absolute violence and the path Mandela chose. And most of the world would have not condemned a little retribution.
He chose a higher path, one that many would not have.
Pick any, verified, historical figure and I will show you their flaws. Doesn't mean they have no good.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He could have chosen to negotiate but still hold a fire under those who committed wrong under apartheid. Instead, many walked free who strict justice would have in jail. There was plenty of room between absolute violence and the path Mandela chose. And most of the world would have not condemned a little retribution.
He chose a higher path, one that many would not have.
Pick any, verified, historical figure and I will show you their flaws. Doesn't mean they have no good.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
It's very telling that the thankfully x Iron Lady regarded him as the leader of "a typical terrorist organisation"

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She also lobbied the South African government for his release from prison.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, Mandela had an iconic status before 1994. Just think of how many Student Union buildings in the UK had a bar or other room (or, indeed the entire building) named after him. There was just enough to lift him above the countless others who worked in opposition to apartheid for him to be lifted to that somewhat symbolic status, a face and a name for all the people imprisoned for their opposition to apartheid.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Once again, Bibliophile, simply and by itself to avoid confusion.
Even if all he did was to handle the transition in a practical manner, that would be worthy of note.
Don't know why you want to hate on Mandela when there are lauded politicians who did harm to their peoples. Such as Reagan and Thatcher.

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I'm not interested n 'hating on' Mandela.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That's a bit of a stupid argument. Of course he had options. They may not have been good options, but he could have gone down alternative roads to running post-apartheid South Africa. Political life is not some form of deterministic process where there is only one choice, for better or worse all of our political leaders have considerable freedom to choose different paths.

They may have left the people worse off, they may have led to the type of tyranny we see in Zimbabwe. But, there were plenty of other options open to him.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I'm not interested n 'hating on' Mandela.

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I find that hard to believe. This is the third thread where you've gotten a bee in your bonnet about this particular subject. Most of your assertions seem geared towards denigrating the agency of black South Africans or asserting that the only effort needed to end Apartheid was for black South Africans to sit back and wait for their benevolent white overlords to do the right thing. As the black South African most identified with taking an active role (rather than the passive one you prefer) in ending Apartheid Mandela seems to have come in for particular sanction (pun intended). That's a lot of hating on something you say you're not really interested in hating on.

Your focus on "saintliness" made me think of a recent incident of less international significance but related theme. Fox News commentator Megyn Kelly made the observation that a 14 year old victim of police brutality was "no saint", which seems to come up a lot when discussing black people being confronted with white authority figures. It seems to be some understood pre-requisite that any black person confronting a white power structure, no matter how abusive, is doing so illegitimately unless they're a saint. Non-sainthood seems to be seen a disqualifying factor for any action taken by anyone with dark skin.

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
My focus here on 'saintliness' is an observation of the way so many people view him.

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Originally posted by Bibliophile:
What other options do you think he had then? As I pointed out earlier no revolutionary party can ever establish itself in power in a country without either the support of part of the ruling class of that country or the overt or covert support of foreign government(s). Every successful revolutionary movement in history has had either one or both of those things.

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