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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Americans sent MSF hospital to hell and won't agree to independent investigation
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
From: https://www.change.org/p/barack-obama-kunduz-investigation
In the early morning hours of October 3, a U.S. gunship repeatedly bombed a Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) hospital in Kunduz, in northern Afghanistan. The attacks killed 22 people, including 12 MSF staff and 10 patients, and injured more than three dozen patients and MSF staff.
There's now a petition you can bother to sign (search for it), but it won't do any good. America hasn't cared about their willful and wanton disregard for the Geneva Conventions since they founded their Guantanamo Bay torture centre. God only knows what other terrible things they are up to. Ugly America.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's enough to make you shout "Military Bastards!"
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
If it's an independent investigation, does the US gov't *have* to approve it? Or is that so they'd be obligated to give access to info?
The US isn't signatory to the International Criminal Court. Does that make a difference?
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If it's an independent investigation, does the US gov't *have* to approve it?
Just think, all those people languishing in jail just because they were stupid enough to give the police permission to investigate them.
EDIT: Just looked up this IHFFC thing. Yeah, United States isn't a party, neither is Afghanistan, neither are an absolute ton of countries. So basically you've got MSF jumping up and down demanding that a body they like be the one that investigates, with no justification whatsoever other than a spot of moral outrage (the little bit I've just read suggests that only countries can ask for an inquiry anyway, not private organisations).
My sympathy level for this tactic just plummeted through the floor. MSF are just trying to use social media to achieve their aims, and trying to use social media users.
[ 27. October 2015, 05:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The IHFFC also says that they've been contacted by Medecins Sans Frontieres, and then has this as their latest news item:
quote:
Update to the IHFFC statement of 8 October 2015 [14/10/2015]
The International Humanitarian Fact-Finding Commission (IHFFC), an independent body established by Article 90 of the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, has proposed its services to the Governments of the United States of America and Afghanistan through identical letters dated 7 October 2015. The IHFFC offered its services on its own initiative.
It is for the concerned Governments to decide whether they wish to rely on the IHFFC. The IHFFC can only act based on the consent of the concerned State or States. The IHFFC cannot give any further information at this stage.
The offer of the IHFFC relates to the events in Kunduz, Afghanistan, on 3 October 2015.
So there ya go. There's been an offer.
I note there's nothing on the IHFFC website saying the offer has been refused. Nor does the MSF petition actually say anything about the response of either government. I suspect they didn't wait for any response before jumping on the social media outrage bandwagon. I can't tell exactly when that petition was started, but it's been running for at least 10 days.
There's actually a bit of difference between "won't agree" and "hasn't agreed straight away". Especially when it comes to government bureaucracy.
[ 27. October 2015, 06:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: So basically you've got MSF jumping up and down demanding that a body they like be the one that investigates, with no justification whatsoever other than a spot of moral outrage
That, and the fact that a number of their staff died. I'd be jumping up and down too. And I wouldn't always be reasonable and rational about it. Their moral outrage may not be in accordance with the letter of the law. But that isn't how outrage works. Whatever moral outrage they have is understandable to me. And your derision of it is more than a little soulless.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: So basically you've got MSF jumping up and down demanding that a body they like be the one that investigates, with no justification whatsoever other than a spot of moral outrage
That, and the fact that a number of their staff died. I'd be jumping up and down too. And I wouldn't always be reasonable and rational about it. Their moral outrage may not be in accordance with the letter of the law. But that isn't how outrage works. Whatever moral outrage they have is understandable to me. And your derision of it is more than a little soulless.
Let me be clear, I've got no problem with them expressing moral outrage about the death of their staff. I do have a problem with them expressing moral outrage about how those deaths are investigated, and trying to leverage the mechanisms of international law.
They have every right to say there needs to be an investigation, but I don't think it follows they have a right to dictate how that investigation is carried out, any more than I have a right to turn up to court and tell the authorities how I want my case to be run.
To me it's the difference between saying "you need to do something" and then saying "no, you're doing the wrong something". I know lots of parents and wives are reputed to both want children/husbands to perform tasks AND then to dictate how the task is done, but it doesn't work that way.
[ 27. October 2015, 07:52: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: They have every right to say there needs to be an investigation, but I don't think it follows they have a right to dictate how that investigation is carried out, any more than I have a right to turn up to court and tell the authorities how I want my case to be run.
Of course I'd have the right to tell them exactly that. It is rather probable that the court's answer will be "no", but AFAICS I have the right to tell them anything I want. And I'd also have the right to shout on all social media how I'd want my case to be run.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: They have every right to say there needs to be an investigation, but I don't think it follows they have a right to dictate how that investigation is carried out, any more than I have a right to turn up to court and tell the authorities how I want my case to be run.
Of course I'd have the right to tell them exactly that. It is rather probable that the court's answer will be "no", but AFAICS I have the right to tell them anything I want. And I'd also have the right to shout on all social media how I'd want my case to be run.
Sigh, I should treat this like work...
Fine. I shouldn't have used the word "right". Unless I meant they don't have the right to get their way.
I simply don't like these kinds of tactics, even when someone is in the right. Even when someone deserves justice. If someone's argument is valid, they should win because their argument is valid, not because of their ability to whip up cheap emotion from the peanut gallery.
This is not the kind of thing that should be decided by petition, for God's sake. How many people who sign this petition are actually going to give a shit about the outcome of this investigation 2 years down the track when it's done? It's a piece of emotional clickbait, and things as important as determining whether someone is guilty of a war crime ought not have their course determined by emotional clickbait, any more than the guilt of a cop ought to be determined by rioting in the streets or the fate of Oscar Pistorius ought to be determined by a global opinion poll.
The merits of MSF's position are not changed one iota by how many people they get to press a "Like" button. Justice is not a PR exercise or a popularity contest.
[ 27. October 2015, 10:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: The merits of MSF's position are not changed one iota by how many people they get to press a "Like" button.
Of course they aren't. But I can imagine why they want these 'likes'. And there's nothing wrong with pursuing them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
In what way is a social media petition and campaign for an inquiry any different from countless other campaigns for inquiries waged in the traditional media, letter writing and so on? OK, just clicking "like" takes a bit less effort than signing a physical piece of paper. But, is there really that much difference?
In what way does campaigning for an inquiry into the murder of doctors and their patients differ from a campaign for a fresh inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster or the Lockerbie bombing?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In what way is a social media petition and campaign for an inquiry any different from countless other campaigns for inquiries waged in the traditional media, letter writing and so on? OK, just clicking "like" takes a bit less effort than signing a physical piece of paper. But, is there really that much difference?
In what way does campaigning for an inquiry into the murder of doctors and their patients differ from a campaign for a fresh inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster or the Lockerbie bombing?
It differs from calls for an inquiry where none has occurred in the respect that there are already, according to them, 3 inquiries running right now.
As for the perpetual inquiry industry, I'm not a fan of that either. Some people will demand inquiries until the day they die because each inquiry doesn't give them the answer they want to hear. Very occasionally, this might be because they genuinely know something was wrong with the previous inquiry. More often it's because people make up their mind before any inquiry and no amount of actual facts will sway them from their original opinion.
A new inquiry ("fresh" seems a misnomer because the memories are getting staler) should only be called when there is genuinely new evidence, not because someone hopes that the next person to rake it all over again will come to the "right" conclusion.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Why does anyone think an enquiry will matter. From the American military POV, MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban. And this is not inaccurate from a purely practical standpoint..
Shelling the hospital was a bad thing, this I assert. But why does anyone reasonably think the military agrees?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
What is MSF expected to do? Turn the other cheek? Don't tell Americans where their hospitals are? Because they will bomb them anyway? Buy rocket launchers?.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In what way is a social media petition and campaign for an inquiry any different from countless other campaigns for inquiries waged in the traditional media, letter writing and so on? OK, just clicking "like" takes a bit less effort than signing a physical piece of paper. But, is there really that much difference?
In what way does campaigning for an inquiry into the murder of doctors and their patients differ from a campaign for a fresh inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster or the Lockerbie bombing?
It differs from calls for an inquiry where none has occurred in the respect that there are already, according to them, 3 inquiries running right now.
3 inquiries conducted by those who are themselves implicated in the shelling of the hospital.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What is MSF expected to do? Turn the other cheek? Don't tell Americans where their hospitals are? Because they will bomb them anyway? Buy rocket launchers?.
I did not say they should do anything differently.
I am not saying it was their fault, it was not. Just that it is not a surprise.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Why does anyone think an enquiry will matter. From the American military POV, MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban. And this is not inaccurate from a purely practical standpoint..
Shelling the hospital was a bad thing, this I assert. But why does anyone reasonably think the military agrees?
the path of U.S. foreign policy is soaked in blood. America sucks.
Like a vampire, America sucks all of the blood and all of the oil.
It wants to make us free by swallowing us whole
Giving us freedom from the edge of a knife, from a bullet in flight, while bending the world over a barrel of oil.
What it can't rape, it kills.
All we see underneath is only bones and teeth of the dead.
(with apologies to Suzanne Vega and Sándor Ferenczi, whose words I've butchered with less warmth and no fuck'em up GI Joe hard-on.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I did not say they should do anything differently.
I am not saying it was their fault, it was not. Just that it is not a surprise.
No, you said this:
quote:
lilBuddha meditated and said Om to this
MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban.
Which means you have drunk the kool-aid, and are part of the problem.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I did not say they should do anything differently.
I am not saying it was their fault, it was not. Just that it is not a surprise.
No, you said this:
quote:
lilBuddha meditated and said Om to this
MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban.
Which means you have drunk the kool-aid, and are part of the problem.
Actually, the standing left-wing rap against MSF is the opposite of what lilBuddha wrote: that they are enablers of western aggression, albeit dressed up in supposedly idealistic European garb.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Why does anyone think an enquiry will matter. From the American military POV, MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban. And this is not inaccurate from a purely practical standpoint..
Shelling the hospital was a bad thing, this I assert. But why does anyone reasonably think the military agrees?
the path of U.S. foreign policy is soaked in blood. America sucks.
Like a vampire, America sucks all of the blood and all of the oil.
It wants to make us free by swallowing us whole
Giving us freedom from the edge of a knife, from a bullet in flight, while bending the world over a barrel of oil.
What it can't rape, it kills.
All we see underneath is only bones and teeth of the dead.
(with apologies to Suzanne Vega and Sándor Ferenczi, whose words I've butchered with less warmth and no fuck'em up GI Joe hard-on.)
Calm down. Your beloved homeland has been me-tooing imperial aggression since at least the Boer War, and I'm not expecting Justin to do much to change that.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Stetson: Actually, the standing left-wing rap against MSF is the opposite of what lilBuddha wrote: that they are enablers of western aggression, albeit dressed up in supposedly idealistic European garb.
When I was studying Social and Political Sciences at a lefty university, I heard the same things about MSF. I don't know them well enough to have a well-formed opinion about them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Stetson: Actually, the standing left-wing rap against MSF is the opposite of what lilBuddha wrote: that they are enablers of western aggression, albeit dressed up in supposedly idealistic European garb.
When I was studying Social and Political Sciences at a lefty university, I heard the same things about MSF. I don't know them well enough to have a well-formed opinion about them.
The gist of that LRB piece seems to be that they try to harness western(basically US) power, for what are supposed to be idealistic goals. If I'm reading the article correctly, Caldwell seems to take the "idealistic" characterization of these endeavours at face-value, but is sensitive to the contradictions of foreign adventurism conducted under such auspices.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I did not say they should do anything differently.
I am not saying it was their fault, it was not. Just that it is not a surprise.
No, you said this:
quote:
lilBuddha meditated and said Om to this
MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban.
Which means you have drunk the kool-aid, and are part of the problem.
the full sentence was this:
quote:
From the American military POV, MSF are acting as a medical wing for the Taliban. And this is not inaccurate from a purely practical standpoint..
You see the bit in the front? The bit you ignored? That is important. Now, you might look at the following sentence and think "gotcha", but you would be inaccurate
MSF intent might be apolitical and humanitarian, but the Taliban are using them to get their fighters patched up.
Does this justify the air strike? No. Does this absolve the US? No.
And whilst I also decry American killing non-combatants, I am not so foolish to ignore that the maple leaf and Union Jack are painted in innocent blood as well. So Damn the Americans, but damn us all the same.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Calm down. Your beloved homeland has been me-tooing imperial aggression since at least the Boer War, and I'm not expecting Justin to do much to change that.
You shat in your hat and haven't the slightest clue do you? Canada did not participate in invasions/coups/other bloody adventures of Cuba (failed), Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Grenada, Panama, Chile, Iraq, among many others, while signing on to UN approved missions for peacekeeping and one war (Korea). Less peacekeeping under the recently defeated gov't. Which is pulling out of the Syrian bombing, which appears to be becoming a proxy conflict between USA and Russia.
MSF is western in the sense that most of the trained medical people and logisticians are European and North America, because that's where the people with requisite training are from. To conflate that with MSF being an agent of the people who bombed them in Kunduz is delusional.
It cannot be both ways, that MSF is allied with the Taliban and also allied with with western interests.
[ 27. October 2015, 15:58: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
You shat in your hat and haven't the slightest clue do you? Canada did not participate in invasions/coups/other bloody adventures of Cuba (failed), Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Grenada, Panama, Chile, Iraq, among many others, while signing on to UN approved missions for peacekeeping and one war (Korea). Less peacekeeping under the recently defeated gov't. Which is pulling out of the Syrian bombing, which appears to be becoming a proxy conflict between USA and Russia.
Well, no, obviously, Canada, being a middle-tier power at best, does not have a sphere of influence comparable to what the Americans or the European colonial powers have. So, it's not like we went whole-hog into one particular region, as per your Latin American examples.
We did, however, jump into the Boer War, World War I(you can defend that as a humanitarian effort if you want; I will not), Korea(pretty hardcore atrocities commited on both sides, though I suppose we might not have been DIRECTLY implicated), Gulf War I(Blood For Oil being the standard left-wing view of that, maybe you see it differently), the NATO bombing of Kosovo, and numerous excursions(under both Liberals and Conservatives) post-911.
(I've left out WW2 since everyone seems to agree that the world had an obligation to stop Hitler, and I don't wanna get into that debate here.)
Oh, and as for Vietnam, check out the Canadian Encyclopedia on that topic. We weren't quite the honest-broker of nationalist mythology in that conflict.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
No Prphet wrote:
quote:
To conflate that with MSF being an agent of the people who bombed them in Kunduz is delusional.
Well, Bernard Kouchner, the founder of MSF, was FOREIGN MINISTER in the government of Nicolas Sarkozy, and thus oversaw the French military effort in Afghanistan. I believe we can surmise from this that he was thus a supporter of western military efforts in Afghanistan, even though he probably disapproves of what took place in Kunduz.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Oh, and just to clarify, if it's a choice between saying that MSF is an agent of western influence, and saying that they are agents of anti-western forces like the Taliban, from everything I've heard, I'd settle on the former.
Though I'll grant that they probably fall more in with the Ignatieffian "military humanism" rendition of the theme than the Kill 'Em All And Let God Sort It Out version. Not that there is much difference between the two in practice.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Educate yourself. MSF history.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You think going to a propaganda page is education?
No one puts their entire history on their promo page.
Wikipedia may not be a perfect source, but it is at least more thorough.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You think going to a propaganda page is education?
No one puts their entire history on their promo page.
Wikipedia may not be a perfect source, but it is at least more thorough.
Which part of any of it supports the contention of bias? And which part of any of it shows that the Kunduz hospital was rightfully a military target under any international law? I've not seen anything by anyone supporting the contentions of bias, except today, in this thread. (I suppose you can anything supporting anything on the internet.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I did not say it did. Just that is is ridiculous to use a publicity page for reference, especially with the admonition to "educate".
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In what way is a social media petition and campaign for an inquiry any different from countless other campaigns for inquiries waged in the traditional media, letter writing and so on? OK, just clicking "like" takes a bit less effort than signing a physical piece of paper. But, is there really that much difference?
In what way does campaigning for an inquiry into the murder of doctors and their patients differ from a campaign for a fresh inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster or the Lockerbie bombing?
It differs from calls for an inquiry where none has occurred in the respect that there are already, according to them, 3 inquiries running right now.
3 inquiries conducted by those who are themselves implicated in the shelling of the hospital.
Yeah. And?
Not actually true. Not without more evidence than talking about "America", "Afghanistan" and "NATO".
Seriously, how many inquiries into government action are by government? When you go to court to challenge "the government", aren't you going to one branch of government to challenge the government?
If we're going to lump entire countries administrative and legal systems into a unified "them", then a hell of a lot of inquiries are not independent. Saying that "America" can't investigate because "America" is implicated lumps several million people together as an amorphous hospital-bombing blob. I don't buy the notion that every single person who works for the US government in some capacity is automatically disqualified from investigating American actions.
The headline of this thread makes exactly that mistake. The "Americans" that sent an MSF hospital to hell aren't automatically the same "Americans" who "won't agree" to an independent investigation (noting my previous commentary on how quickly this petition emerged, without evidence that "America" actually said no).
[ 27. October 2015, 20:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Orfeo:
Except as previously indicated, that the USA has shown itself to be unilateral in philosophy and action since their direction was firmly established in the days of their New American Century dystopian fantasy (for everyone but them), their belief that they could run Pax Americana etc. Most of the world sees them as continuing the general direction, even with changes of presidents. In a word, Americans investigating such an incident for which they are responsible are absolutely not trusted. There is both the appearance of a conflict of interest, and the actual existence of one. You are more trusting than most of us in believing that there isn't one. Some of us are recalling the legalistic back flips and actual misconduct of America, which has tainted our trust.
In parallel, we don't generally see police forces investigating their own members, another police force is called in to do it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
In parallel, we don't generally see police forces investigating their own members, another police force is called in to do it.
Do you not grasp this is exactly the point I'm making? Police investigating police, and you're okay with that?
Whereas Americans investigating Americans is apparently beyond the pale. Have you told the American Shipmates how untrustworthy you think they are?
Oh, and police forces investigate themselves all the time. It's usually called something like Internal Affairs.
[ 27. October 2015, 22:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
They don't do it that way here re police. Depending on circumstances, a civilian board deals with police misconduct or a police force from another jurisdiction, monitored by the provincial crown prosecutions and the attorney general's office. I have testified at one of these. A judge from another province was appointed to hear the thing, lawyers from elsewhere were appointed to present the case. The RCMP (federal police) did the legwork. Whole thing looked very impartial and unbiased. Minor things, the police chief has to defend his or her conduct to the civilian board.
In this situation of MSF, some non-Americans need to investigate, but they won't.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
No Prophet:
Did you object when the Canadian soliders involved in beating that Somali to death were tried by a Canadian court, or when the overall incident was investigated by a Canadian inquiry?
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
You missed the main point no prophet was making. Canadians can be trusted to run an impartial inquiry into the actions of Canadians. Americans can't be trusted to do so. I'm not sure, but I detected a hint of a simple "Americans can't be trusted. Period".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In what way is a social media petition and campaign for an inquiry any different from countless other campaigns for inquiries waged in the traditional media, letter writing and so on? OK, just clicking "like" takes a bit less effort than signing a physical piece of paper. But, is there really that much difference?
In what way does campaigning for an inquiry into the murder of doctors and their patients differ from a campaign for a fresh inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster or the Lockerbie bombing?
It differs from calls for an inquiry where none has occurred in the respect that there are already, according to them, 3 inquiries running right now.
3 inquiries conducted by those who are themselves implicated in the shelling of the hospital.
Yeah. And?
Not actually true. Not without more evidence than talking about "America", "Afghanistan" and "NATO".
Seriously, how many inquiries into government action are by government? When you go to court to challenge "the government", aren't you going to one branch of government to challenge the government?
If we're going to lump entire countries administrative and legal systems into a unified "them", then a hell of a lot of inquiries are not independent. Saying that "America" can't investigate because "America" is implicated lumps several million people together as an amorphous hospital-bombing blob. I don't buy the notion that every single person who works for the US government in some capacity is automatically disqualified from investigating American actions.
The headline of this thread makes exactly that mistake. The "Americans" that sent an MSF hospital to hell aren't automatically the same "Americans" who "won't agree" to an independent investigation (noting my previous commentary on how quickly this petition emerged, without evidence that "America" actually said no).
It's not as though the investigators are being chosen at random from among 300,000,000 Americans, though.
It's not another branch of government doing the investigating - in fact, it's not even another command within the US military. Essentially generals from various parts of Central Command have been chosen to investigate the actions of another part of Central Command.
This may result in a fair and impartial investigation, but a degree of skepticism is hardly as unreasonable as you're making it out to be.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No. No. Independence of inquiries and investigations is always required. I don't trust anyone with a conflict of interest. Alan's comment is particularly offensive. I don't recall the specifics of the Canadian murder of Somalians, but at the very least it should have been externally managed by civilian oversight.
But the point with the MSF is probably lost. But as a doner to it and friends who gone on service with them, I am apparently a terror funder in some your eyes. Terror surgery. Terror vaccinations. Terror medical post earthquakes and tsunamis.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Prophet:
Points taken, but you didn't orginally say that another branch of the American government should be investigating. You said...
quote:
Except as previously indicated, that the USA has shown itself to be unilateral in philosophy and action since their direction was firmly established in the days of their New American Century dystopian fantasy (for everyone but them), their belief that they could run Pax Americana etc. Most of the world sees them as continuing the general direction, even with changes of presidents. In a word, Americans investigating such an incident for which they are responsible are absolutely not trusted.
Which I think implied to some of us here that NO Amercans, from whatever part of the government, should be investigating this, and it should be turned over to a non-American body.
Which is why I asked you if the same standards should have been applied to the Canadians who killed the Somali.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
The Somali incident was a crime committed by individuals acting on their own and was prosecuted as such. The massacre of the MSF people appears to have committed by military personnel acting under orders - it's rather different. While the US government continues to murder people in Pakistan who are only suspected of having terrorist connections, without any due process and without even a formal state of war being declared, I think we're going to have to get used to this kind of thing.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Yesterday NPR reported the MSF site in Yemen was not near any military target, and the Americans provided the coordinates for the attack. The conclusion - the attack was intended by the Americans to be against MSF. Which means from the official American viewpoint there is nothing to investigate, nothing accidental happened, to the American military it was a successful mission.
Of course, I don't know if NPR was correct in its assessment.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The point being made seems to be that hospitals and civilians are legitimate targets in the present total war. The Geneva rules are off. Would this serve legitimize attacks on medical facilities in coalition countries by terrorists? If the hospital in a coalition country treats soldiers, is it? .
I get that bombing seems impersonal to the military, sort of like one of those air combat video games. They even chat like video gamers while doing their killing. But the military capabilities are uneven. I should think the message from these bombings is that if an opposition group overruns a hospital, it is legitimate to just shoot the patients and doctors(?) The people fighting set the rules as they go, within rules of engagement. Are the rules returning to Joshua at Jericho and Ai?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Hey, it's okay, I know that, as an American, I'm a patriotic, unthinking, warmongering religious gun nut. I'm used to it. Heck, I get it from the people I live and work with—only they blame it on my being from flyover country. I mean, I guess they're Americans too, so they're self-loathing or something, but yeah. Used to it.
I acknowledge your superiority, O Canadian One, and your unfailing politeness. Thank you for, in your wisdom, pointing out that Americans move and think in lockstep and can't possibly be trusted to investigate a heinous act by their armed forces. We bow to your civilizing influence, and accept our own inadequacy to function as living, breathing, and thinking individuals.
It isn't possible that Americans would be pissed off at this and want to see those responsible tarred, feathered, and worse. No American ever protested any war by their government. No American ever exposed or investigated what their officials did. No American ever questioned those in power. It's just not something we're capable of doing. After all, we're Americans. Can't help it, poor dears.
[ 28. October 2015, 15:43: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ariston ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The Geneva rules are off. Would this serve legitimize attacks on medical facilities in coalition countries by terrorists?
Well, I'm glad to hear IS, Al-Qaeda, et. al. were previously adhering to the Geneva Convention. First I've heard of it, actually. I don't know that they've shown any reluctance to target hospitals, schools, etc. in the past.
Of course, that's not your point. Your point is that the big, mean 'Murricans are bastards. All 300+ million of them. So noted. Do feel free to tell someone who listens to that sort of drivel.
Ariston:
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
What I'm seeing is American defensiveness in this thread. This is not about being Canadian, of which I am an accidental Canadian in any case. Is there something wrong with asking for an independent inquiry? The argument isn't who is the worst of the fighting armies and groups (ISIS, Taliban and related are unbelievably atrocious) it is that justice needs to be done and seen to be done. The truth needs to be known, the people responsible should be held responsible. We've already seen torture explained away as something else, we've seen drone attacks largely ignored, pre-emptive targetting is let go, we don't see any responsibility. Can we trust the people who've let all the rest slide? You think it's about Americans? No, only that past conduct and ignoring leads to lack of trust.
This is fascinating and startling -- said about an Israeli attack on a school.
quote:
The State Department said at the time that “the suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at risk the lives of so many innocent civilians.”
quote:
But the question is if – the question is: If the suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes on a humanitarian facility for which the coordinates had been given, that it seems to have changed.”
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
no prophet's flag is set so...: You are expressing yourself in a bigoted way.
To do a little self-check on "Do I sound like a bigot?" try substituting the word "aboriginals"for "Americans" - bigotry against aboriginal people would surely be appalling to you - and see how it sounds. Let's say you had a problem with a band council's resolution, but you decided to say it like this:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so... In this situation, some non-aboriginals need to investigate, but they won't.
Aboriginals investigating such an incident for which they are responsible are absolutely not trusted.
Do you see the difference? Sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?
A more precise use of language would indicate the use of "American military leaders" or "American politicians" when that is what you mean. As it is, you are expressing bigotry against 300 million Americans.
If you are in fact bigoted against Americans, go fuck yourself. Americans are just like everybody else, people trying to get by. OTOH if you wish to express your outrage at the conduct of American military leaders and political leaders, knock yourself out; there'll be a lineup of Americans to join you.
Try that little self-check the next time you feel compelled to slander a whole group of people.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What I'm seeing is American defensiveness in this thread.
Yes, they're defensive because you're attacking them. Kindly direct your outrage more precisely.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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