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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The place of the afterlife
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I know several people who like to think of those loved ones who have died as if they are still around. Some connect their presence with the ashes or place of burial, others with the places they lived or enjoyed. Is this harmful or unhealthy?
It seems to me that if we think of loved ones as having moved on to be with God, no longer in the world, or even if we think that death is the end, this releases us to grieve and to move on.
A friend says that it would be cruel to wish a lingering on their loved ones rather than allowing them to go to God, as if we can somehow hold them.
What are your thoughts?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I don't know what to think, except that our mainstream churches probably have too little to say about the afterlife.
Or rather, there are plenty of liturgies and sermons for funerals, but you still don't get much of a sense of where your church leaders are coming from when they lead such services. The funeral is a place of pacification, not of theological struggle or engagement.
The result is that we can believe whatever we like, taking a mix and match approach drawn from popular culture as well as personal experience. Some believe the deceased rest until the final judgement; others talk about So-and-so going up to heaven to be with the angels. Yet other Christians even believe in reincarnation. Why not believe that your relatives are right there with you, if it helps? In some (Christian) cultures people still believe that the spirit of the loved-one can return in birds or other small creatures.
We might as well do what feels best to us, because there's little institutional help.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Your church leaders are following the example of Scripture in not speculating re the afterlife. The reason there is such diversity in Christian views of the afterlife is that the Bible tells us precious little about it. From Scripture we know that there is an afterlife-- and that God is there. That's about it.
I think it's appropriate, then, for clergy not to speculate beyond that. Seemingly, that is all we need to know to derive comfort and to order our lives.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Cruel to whom?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Having lost 2 best friends, one in the 1980s and one 5 years ago, both inlaws, one parent, and a host of other friends and rellies, my sense is of my consciousness of them. Both of "<person> would have liked this" and I wonder if I couldn't conjour up some connection. But the latter is hopeful nonsense. The best I can do is think of what they might think and hug the living.
I have thought that I may be too jaded (or damaged/deformed in spirit) to feel presence, whether God, JC, HS or any one else. Just hold to the path and operate 'as if' seems best. Honour the memory and the afterlife, whatever it is/isn't will be just fine at the appropriate time.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
The argument that cemetery owners and funeral directors make, when the family suggests scattering Grandma's ashes in the ocean or whatever, is that you cannot then visit the spot. This is also the argument against burying Gran in the back yard -- suppose your neighborhood is redeveloped in 15 years and the entire district becomes a shopping mall? Whereas cemeteries are usually protected, and (in the US) cannot be built over and turned into a hotel.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Your church leaders are following the example of Scripture in not speculating re the afterlife.
I'm not sure I agree there's no 'speculating' as such. After all, we do sing funeral hymns that make reference to what the afterlife will be like. Our clergy here don't seem to have a problem with that. What they have a problem with, in our country, is when people want to sing along to pop songs during a funeral! And that seems to be more a matter of good taste than anything else!
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Your church leaders are following the example of Scripture in not speculating re the afterlife.
I'm not sure I agree there's no 'speculating' as such. After all, we do sing funeral hymns that make reference to what the afterlife will be like. Our clergy here don't seem to have a problem with that. What they have a problem with, in our country, is when people want to sing along to pop songs during a funeral! And that seems to be more a matter of good taste than anything else!
I'm not sure what you meant by this then:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know what to think, except that our mainstream churches probably have too little to say about the afterlife.
I can't think of any funeral hymns in my tradition that do much speculating about the afterlife-- again, simply referencing what we know from scripture-- that there is an afterlife, and that God is there. Again, I think that's appropriate. The promises found in Scripture provide enough comfort w/o having to speculate about something we can't possibly know.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You might as well ask about the presence of God. All we have are the first two circles in the gospels. The rest is silence that we fill.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
They are there in all our memories.
The myths help in a strange way.
There is a (complete and reasonably recent afaik) myth about pets which 'cross the rainbow bridge' to an afterlife full of fun and frolics. I have no sense whatever that any of it is true, of course. But I find it very comforting all the same. They are there in our memories.
Just this side of heaven.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The argument that cemetery owners and funeral directors make, when the family suggests scattering Grandma's ashes in the ocean or whatever, is that you cannot then visit the spot.
My parents were both scattered at sea in our favourite spot for sailing, near a lighthouse - and so will I be, fish food all.
Of course you can visit the spot - I go there often and look out to sea and think of them.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course at the bull's eye is God in the flesh. The assurance of eternal life. That all will be well. The ONLY comfort.
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't think of any funeral hymns in my tradition that do much speculating about the afterlife-- again, simply referencing what we know from scripture-- that there is an afterlife, and that God is there. Again, I think that's appropriate. The promises found in Scripture provide enough comfort w/o having to speculate about something we can't possibly know.
You and I probably sing different funeral hymns, which wouldn't surprise me!
As you say, I'm probably asking for too much. This is my problem with church in general; wanting what it can't give. The problem then is that church begins to seem a bit optional. If vagueness is what the church does best, why do we need the church? For the social side, of course. In which case, perhaps we need a lot less of the pious waffle and more of just hanging around with our church friends!
In response to the OP, I think people just have to grieve in their own way. I often 'talk' to my mother, who died this year. Maybe it doesn't make much sense, but what does?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't think of any funeral hymns in my tradition that do much speculating about the afterlife-- again, simply referencing what we know from scripture-- that there is an afterlife, and that God is there. Again, I think that's appropriate. The promises found in Scripture provide enough comfort w/o having to speculate about something we can't possibly know.
You and I probably sing different funeral hymns, which wouldn't surprise me!
As you say, I'm probably asking for too much. This is my problem with church in general; wanting what it can't give. The problem then is that church begins to seem a bit optional. If vagueness is what the church does best, why do we need the church? For the social side, of course. In which case, perhaps we need a lot less of the pious waffle and more of just hanging around with our church friends!
In response to the OP, I think people just have to grieve in their own way. I often 'talk' to my mother, who died this year. Maybe it doesn't make much sense, but what does?
Not surprisingly, I think the church has far more to offer than just socializing.
But whatever it offers, it should be genuine. Which is why I appreciate what you call "waffling". I appreciate when my fellow clergy don't speculate about something we cannot and do not know-- and am irked when they engage in random rumor-mongering about things they know nothing about (yes, Franklin Graham/ Beth Moore, I'm looking at you). Again, the only thing we know about the afterlife is that there is one, and that God is there. And that's enough: as we say in my tradition, "that'll preach." There's enough in that promise to provide hope and comfort to those who grieve. All the more so IMHO precisely because it is genuine, rather than undermining the whole thing with groundless speculation.
But, as you say, we're different.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know what to think, except that our mainstream churches probably have too little to say about the afterlife.
Or rather, there are plenty of liturgies and sermons for funerals, but you still don't get much of a sense of where your church leaders are coming from when they lead such services. The funeral is a place of pacification, not of theological struggle or engagement.
Well said! I believe the funeral is primarily for the person who has died, for their soul. Those left behind and their grief is a secondary purpose.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why do they need it?
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think it's problematic to say that the funeral is just for the person that's died. Or, at any rate, there also needs to be some forum for the bereaved to explore what death means. If that's not the funeral, then it has to be something else. However, at the moment, there is nothing else. You get the vague, supposedly comforting theological pieties of the funeral sermon and hymns, and that's it.
[ 20. December 2015, 22:29: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know what to think, except that our mainstream churches probably have too little to say about the afterlife.
Or rather, there are plenty of liturgies and sermons for funerals, but you still don't get much of a sense of where your church leaders are coming from when they lead such services. The funeral is a place of pacification, not of theological struggle or engagement.
Well said! I believe the funeral is primarily for the person who has died, for their soul. Those left behind and their grief is a secondary purpose.
Maybe I'm misreading Svitlana, but I heard her as saying the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.
At any rate, I would certainly say the exact opposite. I don't think funerals are "for" the person who died. The person who has died is dead. Either they are in a better place, or they are worm food. Either way, whatever we do or don't do here on earth can't be of much consequence to them one way or the other. Their soul is with God, and God will sort that out with or without anything that happens at the funeral.
The funeral is precisely for those left behind. That is it's primary-- it's only-- purpose. To provide comfort, pastoral care, and hope for the ones left behind. To stand with them in their grieving.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I think even the term 'afterlife' needs questioning. It comes, I think, from spiritualism, as do the ideas of having passed or passed over. It identifies the person with an incorporeal 'spirit' that can leave the body and live on on the other side.
My understanding of Chistianity is that it talks of death and resurrection, which is not the same at all.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think even the term 'afterlife' needs questioning. It comes, I think, from spiritualism, as do the ideas of having passed or passed over. It identifies the person with an incorporeal 'spirit' that can leave the body and live on on the other side.
My understanding of Chistianity is that it talks of death and resurrection, which is not the same at all.
The 19th century fad for spiritualism has faded but not the ideas which continue to echo down. But when a friend tells me that he is sure that he felt the presence of his dead wife, to tell him he is mistaken feels the coldest of arrogances. I sometimes find it interesting how counter-intuitive some of the traditional theologies are - death and resurrection, sola gratia.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know what to think, except that our mainstream churches probably have too little to say about the afterlife.
Or rather, there are plenty of liturgies and sermons for funerals, but you still don't get much of a sense of where your church leaders are coming from when they lead such services. The funeral is a place of pacification, not of theological struggle or engagement.
Well said! I believe the funeral is primarily for the person who has died, for their soul. Those left behind and their grief is a secondary purpose.
Maybe I'm misreading Svitlana, but I heard her as saying the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.
At any rate, I would certainly say the exact opposite. I don't think funerals are "for" the person who died. The person who has died is dead. Either they are in a better place, or they are worm food. Either way, whatever we do or don't do here on earth can't be of much consequence to them one way or the other. Their soul is with God, and God will sort that out with or without anything that happens at the funeral.
The funeral is precisely for those left behind. That is it's primary-- it's only-- purpose. To provide comfort, pastoral care, and hope for the ones left behind. To stand with them in their grieving.
I'm agreeing with Svlitlana's opinion that our churches have too little to say about the afterlife, and that funerals tend to be a place of pacification. I'm also stating my own view that the funeral is primarilyfor the person who has died. It is certainly primarily about the person who has died. This idea that funerals are mainly for the bereaved is a fairly recent development - in the past the religious rituals for the dead were focused on the soul of the person who had died and transition of that soul into what lies beyond. To provide comfort and support for the bereaved is also a purpose of a funeral however it is not IMO the primary purpose.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm also stating my own view that the funeral is primarilyfor the person who has died. It is certainly primarily about the person who has died. This idea that funerals are mainly for the bereaved is a fairly recent development - in the past the religious rituals for the dead were focused on the soul of the person who had died and transition of that soul into what lies beyond.
By "in the past" do you mean within Christianity, or are you talking of pre-Christian peoples? Can you point to any sources for that? In the Reformed tradition that view (the some sort of religious ritual is needed to help "transition" the soul to the next life) is explicitly repudiated.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think even the term 'afterlife' needs questioning. It comes, I think, from spiritualism, as do the ideas of having passed or passed over. It identifies the person with an incorporeal 'spirit' that can leave the body and live on on the other side.
My understanding of Chistianity is that it talks of death and resurrection, which is not the same at all.
The 19th century fad for spiritualism has faded but not the ideas which continue to echo down. But when a friend tells me that he is sure that he felt the presence of his dead wife, to tell him he is mistaken feels the coldest of arrogances. I sometimes find it interesting how counter-intuitive some of the traditional theologies are - death and resurrection, sola gratia.
So we must wonder (not necessarily alongside your friend) what the sense of a presence is, and what it means.
This discussion of the afterlife is a funny little theological corner, but perhaps we need to think carefully about smaller things before we have any right to be heard on the bigger ones, like gospel, neighbourliness and justice.
I think that people are present to us, living people, in complex ways. Ultimate reality is not about atoms, but relationships, and the personhood of people is found in their interactions and relationships. I think we are extraordinarily sensitive to the intentions of those around us, which is something I find hard to unpack, but which I believe has unexplored significance.
Cutting to the chase, people live in our heads (or at least, our little models of them do), they live in our histories and memory, and they inhabit the many overlapping networks within which we each have our own fullest being. So when they die, how much changes?
It turns out that not so much does. We may (I think it depends in part on us, so I say may) continue to feel their warmth, their nurturing, their understanding, their pride, their hopes, even their guidance, and certainly their comfort, closeness and presence.
But I think we need a better vocabulary to talk about this. Relationship, network, conversation, communion, Word, abiding, polyphony, Trinity are the ones I know best. They can help steer us away from looking at the thing, the individual (has there ever been an individual, but it's such a common synonym for person) the fascinating focus, and help us concentrate more on the spaces in between, which is where we have our being, where our dead flourish, and where God lives; the natural terrain of love, and the most real of all realities.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That's a fine and thought-provoking piece of writing. I'm trying to work out how it fits with the blog in your sig., which I dip into from time to time. You appear to have a fascination with gravestones, and some of the more notable, um, individuals buried in their local cemetery - individuals with whom you had no relational connection that I can tell and after whom your blog appears to be named.
quote:
A hug in letters carved in stone
is, you seem to think, quote:
still better than no hug.
Afterlife might be the wrong word, resurrection a better one - but what's going on here, d'you think?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Resurrection as a language understands absence even if it doesn't understand continued presence. And it is i think more communal. We face what is next together, it is not a journey taken alone.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The argument that cemetery owners and funeral directors make, when the family suggests scattering Grandma's ashes in the ocean or whatever, is that you cannot then visit the spot.
Having been involved in a few burials at sea/scatterings of ashes in my naval days I have to say it's not something I'd want myself - the nadir was the time we managed to scatter the ashes to windward; the last sighting of the poor chap's mortal remains were when they were hosed off the side of the superstructure with a high pressure jet wash back in the dockyard....*
OTOH, my mother didn't want to be buried so we spent much of the first year after her death trying to work out where to scatter her ashes. We eventually settled on the beach at Bamburgh in May this year precisely *because* it was somewhere we could go back to. They're most unlikely to build on it!
*he didn't have any surviving family, there was no one involved except the chaplain and the ship's company, and it was rationalised to the spirit of the deceased with the old saw, "if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined..."
[ 21. December 2015, 08:28: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
They are there in all our memories.
The myths help in a strange way.
There is a (complete and reasonably recent afaik) myth about pets which 'cross the rainbow bridge' to an afterlife full of fun and frolics. I have no sense whatever that any of it is true, of course. But I find it very comforting all the same. They are there in our memories.
Just this side of heaven.
I don't get this at all. How is this "Rainbow Bridge" thing comforting if you know it isn't actually true? If anything it makes things worse that the only form of comfort we can get is by making shit up.
[ 21. December 2015, 08:47: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's a fine and thought-provoking piece of writing. I'm trying to work out how it fits with the blog in your sig., which I dip into from time to time. You appear to have a fascination with gravestones, and some of the more notable, um, individuals buried in their local cemetery - individuals with whom you had no relational connection that I can tell and after whom your blog appears to be named.
quote:
A hug in letters carved in stone
is, you seem to think, quote:
still better than no hug.
Afterlife might be the wrong word, resurrection a better one - but what's going on here, d'you think?
Maybe it is one of the big questions. Death is no part of life, but it and our fear of it lurk at the edge of everything.
I suppose I live a this-worldly interpretation of Christianity. I reject all talk of the miraculous and supernatural as incoherent. Other realms and worlds likewise. I think they are bad theology, influenced by immature science - often largely Nineteenth Century.
Death is a problem, though, because it undermines our response to life, all that this-worldly loving and redeeming and peace-making. It threatens relationships by breaking them.
I have a connection with Lucia Joyce in Kingsthorpe cemetery, because she was once a patient at the hospital where I am now a chaplain. I feel a connection and a pastoral responsibility towards her, to remember, honour and understand her. And a fulfilment in doing that, in accepting our connectedness. Our salvation is always intertwined.
I see a cemetery as a place of holding onto those relationships despite death. It's a workshop more than a repository.
Faith tries to say how the natural is super, how life is beautiful, the world good, and hope possible. How we handle death is very revealing. I want to say that death is the great enemy and bringer of despair, and at the same time that it is nothing at all.
I'm not sure I've addressed the question, but I'm not a man full of answers.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
There are no cemeteries within walking distance of my home. There is a crematorium with an attached cemetery a moderate drive away. It feels very artificial. My grandparents ashes are there but I have never had a sense that they were. It is not a church cemetery, life and death bound together. It's a nice clean modern facility with pretty well kept gardens.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm also stating my own view that the funeral is primarilyfor the person who has died. It is certainly primarily about the person who has died. This idea that funerals are mainly for the bereaved is a fairly recent development - in the past the religious rituals for the dead were focused on the soul of the person who had died and transition of that soul into what lies beyond.
By "in the past" do you mean within Christianity, or are you talking of pre-Christian peoples? Can you point to any sources for that? In the Reformed tradition that view (the some sort of religious ritual is needed to help "transition" the soul to the next life) is explicitly repudiated.
Prayer for the dead in
Judaism
quote:
O G-d, full of compassion, Who dwells on high, grant true rest upon the wings of the Shechinah (Divine Presence), in the exalted spheres of the holy and pure, who shine as the resplendence of the firmament, to the soul of
(mention his Hebrew name and that of his father)
who has gone to his [supernal] world, for charity has been donated in remembrance of his soul; may his place of rest be in Gan Eden. Therefore, may the All-Merciful One shelter him with the cover of His wings forever, and bind his soul in the bond of life. The Lord is his heritage; may he rest in his resting-place in peace; and let us say: Amen.
Christian practice of praying for the dead, including praying to the saints, is well documented and continues in many traditions, including those within the Church of England. Prayers of Commendation which can be said for the dying can also be used at the funeral e.g.
quote:
, go forth upon your journey from this world,
in the name of God the Father almighty who created you;
in the name of Jesus Christ who suffered death for you;
in the name of the Holy Spirit who strengthens you;
in communion with the blessed saints,
and aided by angels and archangels,
and all the armies of the heavenly host.
May your portion this day be in peace,
and your dwelling the heavenly Jerusalem.
Catholic practice of praying for the dead is linked to belief in purgatory and souls in purgatory are understood as being within the 'Communion of Saints' as expressed in the creeds.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I want to say that death is the great enemy and bringer of despair, and at the same time that it is nothing at all.
I'd like to quote CS Lewis again, he says that death is quote:
the eternal Surd in the universal mathematic
You say elsewhere on your blog that it's an "abomination". The Bible says it's the last enemy, and does so in 1 Corinthians 15 in the context of resurrection.
Nineteenth-century concepts of the afterlife may be unhelpful and this-worldly concepts of Christianity a useful corrective, but that surd isn't going to be resolved - and thus allow for concepts like "super", "beautiful", "good", and "hope" - Christianly at least, without something after death, is it?
[ 21. December 2015, 09:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I reject all talk of the miraculous and supernatural as incoherent. Other realms and worlds likewise. I think they are bad theology, influenced by immature science - often largely Nineteenth Century.
Yet the idea of multiverses is very much up-to-date science.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
'After' death I have problems with. Beyond or even through death seem better. You have to die to be resurrected, and I think the death of Christ has to be a catastrophe.
Much talk of the afterlife seems to be a denial of death. They have just slipped away, passed on, to awaken at once amid flowers and smiles. I think the agony in the garden is required.
I also have problems with the idea of continuity and consciousness after death. I've just been writing Christmas cards for my mum, who has dementia. She is in some senses already leaving us. She is less alive than she was. So probably am I. Mum is, though, being held in a net of relationships. Friends she can no longer name doggedly remember her. There is a life beyond her brain, somewhere she has always lived.
When we love we entrust ourselves quite literally to the keeping of others, and if we grow old and forgetful, that aspect of our being becomes more important than the so-called autonomous self. That's a resurrection.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I reject all talk of the miraculous and supernatural as incoherent. Other realms and worlds likewise. I think they are bad theology, influenced by immature science - often largely Nineteenth Century.
Yet the idea of multiverses is very much up-to-date science.
Yes. I can't begin to understand it though. Is it just a game for mathematicians?
I think I'm more interested in quantum ideas about infinitely extended particles and entanglement. They suggest richer ideas of relationship.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The multiverse is the only possible, next level, 'linear', continuous explanation, context of our universe. Whether God 'is' or not. If God 'is' and there is only 1 universe, God is even stranger than He is if there's an eternal, infinite multiverse He encompasses.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Yes, how ironic that an infinite multiverse presumably predicts my near-resurrection, in the sense that infinite copies of me, with slight differences maybe, are expected to arise. How appalling, but there we are, we are servants of gravity!
On the other hand, some ravishing discovery in mathematics or physics may reduce this to something more parochial. But still, the fact that we don't know is highly pleasurable. Live, and live again (maybe).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
When we love we entrust ourselves quite literally to the keeping of others, and if we grow old and forgetful, that aspect of our being becomes more important than the so-called autonomous self. That's a resurrection.
Yes, I'm struck by the idea that we die twice, once when we die and once when the last person who remembers us dies.
But are you saying Christians are doing nothing more than "doggedly remembering" Jesus? If so, what happens to "till he comes"?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How is this "Rainbow Bridge" thing comforting if you know it isn't actually true? If anything it makes things worse that the only form of comfort we can get is by making shit up.
There are many who would level the "made-up comfort" accusation at Christianity.
Who knows? Give this "Rainbow Bridge" stuff a few centuries and it may be as viable a religion with as many true believers as any we currently know.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
When we love we entrust ourselves quite literally to the keeping of others, and if we grow old and forgetful, that aspect of our being becomes more important than the so-called autonomous self. That's a resurrection.
Yes, I'm struck by the idea that we die twice, once when we die and once when the last person who remembers us dies.
But are you saying Christians are doing nothing more than "doggedly remembering" Jesus? If so, what happens to "till he comes"?
Yes, why not? All those Eucharists are faithful rememberings. All those sermons (some of them), prayers, hymns we sing. And remembered, Jesus guides us, inspires and strengthens us.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
"till he comes"?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How is this "Rainbow Bridge" thing comforting if you know it isn't actually true? If anything it makes things worse that the only form of comfort we can get is by making shit up.
There are many who would level the "made-up comfort" accusation at Christianity.
Who knows? Give this "Rainbow Bridge" stuff a few centuries and it may be as viable a religion with as many true believers as any we currently know.
Yeah, but the difference is that Boogie has said she knows that the Rainbow Bridge guff is made up. I can't understand how a story you know is made up can give you comfort.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, but the difference is that Boogie has said she knows that the Rainbow Bridge guff is made up. I can't understand how a story you know is made up can give you comfort.
I can't either. But it does, it really does.
Clearly my subconscious mind/imagination is more gullible than I am!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, but the difference is that Boogie has said she knows that the Rainbow Bridge guff is made up. I can't understand how a story you know is made up can give you comfort.
I can't either. But it does, it really does.
Clearly my subconscious mind/imagination is more gullible than I am!
The Rainbow Bridge thing makes me yak, but it does serve a useful purposes as it always comes back with the pet's ashes and induces such a fit of towering ire at the shit-awful whimsy of it that most of my grief is consumed in railing against the sub-Hallmark lackwit who wrote it, and the cringing arsehole who thinks it's a good idea to send it out to people ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, but the difference is that Boogie has said she knows that the Rainbow Bridge guff is made up. I can't understand how a story you know is made up can give you comfort.
I can't either. But it does, it really does.
Clearly my subconscious mind/imagination is more gullible than I am!
I thought that the function of many stories is to give people comfort. Children like their bedtime story every night, and I don't think adults are all that different, although the stories are a bit more sophisticated. In fact, maybe they're not very different, if you believe in archetypal themes.
For example, Cinderella is a comforting story, because the rejected misunderstood person finally comes good - but many Hollywood films have this theme. 'While You Were Sleeping' being one wondrous example.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
... shit-awful whimsy of it that most of my grief is consumed in railing against the sub-Hallmark lackwit who wrote it ...
It is, it is indeed. Badly written crap.
But the story is a gentle, kind one - and there lies the comfort.
(of course, anger is a part of the grieving process)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, but the difference is that Boogie has said she knows that the Rainbow Bridge guff is made up. I can't understand how a story you know is made up can give you comfort.
I can't either. But it does, it really does.
Clearly my subconscious mind/imagination is more gullible than I am!
I thought that the function of many stories is to give people comfort. Children like their bedtime story every night, and I don't think adults are all that different, although the stories are a bit more sophisticated. In fact, maybe they're not very different, if you believe in archetypal themes.
For example, Cinderella is a comforting story, because the rejected misunderstood person finally comes good - but many Hollywood films have this theme. 'While You Were Sleeping' being one wondrous example.
Yeah, but you're not comforted directly by the thought that Cinderella lived happily ever after; rather by the more abstract concept that things work our alright and the bad people get their comeuppance (whether that's actually true or not is not the point here, to the child it is).
This is a different kind of thing. This is "This is crap but I'll tell a story of the shit that smelt of roses and somehow that makes this shit smell less bad". To put it another way, what's the archetypal theme that the fiction is referencing? I don't get it.
[ 21. December 2015, 15:44: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, but the difference is that Boogie has said she knows that the Rainbow Bridge guff is made up. I can't understand how a story you know is made up can give you comfort.
I can't either. But it does, it really does.
Clearly my subconscious mind/imagination is more gullible than I am!
The Rainbow Bridge thing makes me yak, but it does serve a useful purposes as it always comes back with the pet's ashes and induces such a fit of towering ire at the shit-awful whimsy of it that most of my grief is consumed in railing against the sub-Hallmark lackwit who wrote it, and the cringing arsehole who thinks it's a good idea to send it out to people
Ah, at least someone understands.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Resurrection as a language understands absence even if it doesn't understand continued presence. And it is i think more communal. We face what is next together, it is not a journey taken alone.
Yes. I find "resurrection" to better explain the grief we feel at death, and even the innate drive to fight death, often even when suffering. It corresponds well to our experience of loss, even as it offers hope.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This is "This is crap but I'll tell a story of the shit that smelt of roses and somehow that makes this shit smell less bad". To put it another way, what's the archetypal theme that the fiction is referencing? I don't get it.
Well, firstly it isn't shit. It's death and death is perfectly natural and necessary. But when the one you have lost dies you are filled with grief, even with pets. To imagine that they 'carry on' somehow and you will one day somehow see them again is a comforting imagining. To picture them running free from pain etc is too. It helps bring back the memories of times when they did.
How is this any different from the Christian hope of life eternal?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, yes, I don't get the objection to the ideas of animals surviving. Well, one might object that it's a naff story, or sentimental, but then some people think that Christian stories are also naff. Just personal taste.
I was just commenting on the idea that something being made up made it unsympathetic. That seems odd to me, since large chunks of art, music, and literature are made up, yet comfort people deeply, or superficially, or whatever.
I recall that some atheists say accusingly that religion is designed to comfort people. And?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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