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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill to Meet in Cuba
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
The RC Pope and the Russian Orthodox Patriarch are going to have their first meeting ever, I think. It is only a brief meeting to sign a statement against the persecution of Christians in places like Syria, and the Russian Orthodox Church is going out of its way to signal that what it believes are Vatican efforts to proselytize in Russia and Ukraine are a major obstacle to any other collaboration. But it is still, I think, a big deal. Does anyone think this meeting represents anything other than an exceptional one-time event brought about by the current persecution of Christians?
http://www.religionnews.com/2016/02/05/historic-meeting-between-pope-russian-patriarch/
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
In Orthodox/RC terms, this is very big news and years in the making. There are three sets of politics being overcome here; post-1453, upset about the Ukrainian situation, and overcoming a pretty virulent anti-westernism among some Orthodox. The Cuban setting makes it possible, as neither could make it to the other's home turf.
There will be no instant results, the Orthodox being Orthodox, but contact will have been made and 2d and 3d tier players will be given the green light to continue, and even to do business.
[ 06. February 2016, 22:32: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The Cuban setting makes it possible, as neither could make it to the other's home turf.
Cuba is a hilarious choice for a venue -- a historically Catholic nation that was for decades (perhaps still is) a client state of Russia. Inviting and welcoming to both patriarchs.
ETA: but for very different reasons!
[ 06. February 2016, 22:42: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
It seems ironic to me that a meeting between the Russian Patriarch and the Pope is finally happening when at the same time Russia is causing delays in the upcoming Pan-Orthodox Synod/"Council", has caused it to be moved from Istanbul/Constantinople to Crete, and is downplaying its significance - due largely to the Russian government's spat with Turkey over the downed Russian warplane but perhaps also reflective of broader divisions among the Eastern Orthodox Churches (especially between Russia and Constantinople) and the Russian Church's wariness of any synod that might appear to challenge its influence as the largest Orthodox Church by far.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
What persecution of Christians? For Christ's sake? And what are they going to decide? To unite in Holy War? The Tenth Crusade? Or actually, in every way, declare peace? Something meaningful? Something truly Christian?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I can imagine that they'll smoke a good cigar.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Does it signal that Kyrill is a bigger player in de-facto terms than Bartholomew?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What persecution of Christians? For Christ's sake? And what are they going to decide? To unite in Holy War? The Tenth Crusade? Or actually, in every way, declare peace? Something meaningful? Something truly Christian?
There has been significant persecution of Christians in Syria, among other places. I presume, and certainly hope, that they're not claiming that Christians are being persecuted in Europe or the Americas.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It has been for a thousand years and will be for another.
Until the social gospel, Jesus, breaks in to the church.
Make it ten.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As far as I know, Kyrill took a dim view of the unauthorised air-brushing out of the press photo the Rolex an oligarch had given him ...
But the fact remains he accepted it in the first place.
Mousethief will be able to tell us more but I from the outside it seems to me that there are mixed views towards Kyrill within Orthodoxy ... depending on who you talk to.
Same with RC attitudes towards the Papacy to some extent or Anglican attitudes towards various bishops.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Is this the same Kirill with the watch, the photoshop and the lies? Is that sort of thing survivable in Orthodoxy?
Fairly easily. The Orthies are realistic in their expectations of the higher clergy, understanding that they are very political at that level-- and few jobs are more so than the patriarchal throne in Moscow. At the same time, there is an extraordinary respect for personal saintliness when it happens. Remember that within living memory the Russian bench had KGB appointees sitting beside former inmates of slave labour camps-- one friend told me that they quite understood each other and why they were there together.
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
There has been significant persecution of Christians in Syria, among other places. I presume, and certainly hope, that they're not claiming that Christians are being persecuted in Europe or the Americas.
There is persecution of Christians in Europe, specifically in the Ukraine. Members of the Patriarch's church seek to make his church the official church in the breakaway regions in the East. They've confiscated church buildings and threatened some with death. There have been a few killed in mysterious circumstances. Conversely, in the western part of the country the Patriarch's church is undergoing the same sort of persecution by other Orthodox churches that favor the government in Kiev.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
There is persecution of Christians in Europe, specifically in the Ukraine. Members of the Patriarch's church seek to make his church the official church in the breakaway regions in the East. They've confiscated church buildings and threatened some with death. There have been a few killed in mysterious circumstances. Conversely, in the western part of the country the Patriarch's church is undergoing the same sort of persecution by other Orthodox churches that favor the government in Kiev.
I should have been clearer, I was referring to persecution by non-Christians, not sectarian persecution, but point taken.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... Russia is causing delays in the upcoming Pan-Orthodox Synod/"Council", has caused it to be moved from Istanbul/Constantinople to Crete, and is downplaying its significance ... perhaps also reflective of broader divisions among the Eastern Orthodox Churches (especially between Russia and Constantinople) and the Russian Church's wariness of any synod that might appear to challenge its influence as the largest Orthodox Church by far.
Bingo. Also its unholy alliance with Putin has something to do with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Does it signal that Kyrill is a bigger player in de-facto terms than Bartholomew?
Certainly in de facto terms. Only in Kyrill's fevered mind in de jure terms.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Is this the same Kirill with the watch, the photoshop and the lies? Is that sort of thing survivable in Orthodoxy?
Consider the adjective "byzantine."
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Mousethief will be able to tell us more but I from the outside it seems to me that there are mixed views towards Kyrill within Orthodoxy ... depending on who you talk to.
Ohhhhh yes.
quote:
Same with RC attitudes towards the Papacy to some extent or Anglican attitudes towards various bishops.
The chief difference being that Kyrill is not MY bishop. But the pope is every Catholic's pontiff.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The Orthies are realistic in their expectations of the higher clergy, understanding that they are very political at that level
As shown in the old adage, "The road to Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops."
quote:
At the same time, there is an extraordinary respect for personal saintliness when it happens.
In those all-too-rare instances, yes, very much so. You're far more likely to find your Orfie-on-the-street praising monastics than hierarchs.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
There is persecution of Christians in Europe, specifically in the Ukraine. Members of the Patriarch's church seek to make his church the official church in the breakaway regions in the East. They've confiscated church buildings and threatened some with death. There have been a few killed in mysterious circumstances. Conversely, in the western part of the country the Patriarch's church is undergoing the same sort of persecution by other Orthodox churches that favor the government in Kiev.
I should have been clearer, I was referring to persecution by non-Christians, not sectarian persecution, but point taken.
What about the non-Christians being persecuted by the same people persecuting the Christians? Oh, right. They aren't Samaritan, but Syrian so they can be safely ignored.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Which, BTW, left me with the impression that Orthodox pace could make a glacier impatient.
Yep. It's a tremendous blessing and an obnoxious curse. Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris, one of our 20th century saints, wrote a very good essay on the subject, saying that the Orthodox Church has been in lock-down-circle-the-wagons mode for so long (not exactly in those words) that it has forgotten that's not the only mode.
In protecting itself from first the Ottomans and then the Soviets (interesting how the end of the one is so very close in time to the beginning of the other), it has been holding tightly to every last bit of tradition and practice, to where it has come to see holding tightly to the point of immobility as essential, rather than as something necessary under certain circumstances but not a universal and thus not necessary when those circumstances pass.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Interesting that the BBC is reporting that the/an issue between the Russian Orthodox and the RCC is about territory and that hardline groups in Russia are decrying the Patriarch for meeting a heretic.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Interesting that the BBC is reporting that the/an issue between the Russian Orthodox and the RCC is about territory and that hardline groups in Russia are decrying the Patriarch for meeting a heretic.
That last part is hardly interesting, as it is to be expected and hardly wondered at. Would would be interesting would be if hardline Russian groups did NOT decry Kyrill for meeting a heretic.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
http://www.local10.com/news/joint-declaration-of-pope-francis-patriarch-kirill
Here's their joint declaration. As I suspected, it not only talks about praying for Christian unity and the persecution of Christians (and other faiths) in Syria and elsewhere, but also touches on the Dead Horses of SSM and abortion (and on related issues like euthanasia and reproductive technology). While hoping to avoid going into the Dead Horse issues themselves, I do want to remark that I found it curious that this meeting materialized just as the Italian parliament is debating a bill on civil unions for same sex-couples. Of course, by being able to (however loosely) connect his crackdown on LGBT issues in the public sphere to the Pope, Putin has yet one more way he can spin this meeting as a PR victory.
That all said, I found the use of what seems like relatively strong ecumenical language on a statement signed by the Patriarch of the ROC (given just how resistant that church has been to ecumenism) surprising. There is definitely more ecumenism going on here than just trying to call attention to the persecution of Christians. I'm not sure to what extent the ROC has ever formally recognized that the RCC is a real "Church" or has real clergy, sacraments, etc. - whatever I have read has used much more hedging language that what I have read from Greek Orthodox sources. Of course East and West talk about such issues which completely different language but the ROC has tended to use language even more dubious than the Greeks when discussing it. All that makes this statement seem like a big deal to me.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
It is only a brief meeting to sign a statement against the persecution of Christians in places like Syria, and the Russian Orthodox Church is going out of its way to signal that what it believes are Vatican efforts to proselytize in Russia and Ukraine are a major obstacle to any other collaboration.
In light of this, I found Paragraph 24 to be of significance:
quote:
24. Orthodox and Catholics are united not only by the shared Tradition of the Church of the first millennium, but also by the mission to preach the Gospel of Christ in the world today. This mission entails mutual respect for members of the Christian communities and excludes any form of proselytism.
We are not competitors but brothers, and this concept must guide all our mutual actions as well as those directed to the outside world. We urge Catholics and Orthodox in all countries to learn to live together in peace and love, and to be “in harmony with one another” (Rm 15:5). Consequently, it cannot be accepted that disloyal means be used to incite believers to pass from one Church to another, denying them their religious freedom and their traditions. We are called upon to put into practice the precept of the apostle Paul: “Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another's foundation” (Rm 15:20).
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm with the Athonite monks on this.
[ 15. February 2016, 20:51: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
It is only a brief meeting to sign a statement against the persecution of Christians in places like Syria, and the Russian Orthodox Church is going out of its way to signal that what it believes are Vatican efforts to proselytize in Russia and Ukraine are a major obstacle to any other collaboration.
In light of this, I found Paragraph 24 to be of significance:
quote:
24. Orthodox and Catholics are united not only by the shared Tradition of the Church of the first millennium, but also by the mission to preach the Gospel of Christ in the world today. This mission entails mutual respect for members of the Christian communities and excludes any form of proselytism.
We are not competitors but brothers, and this concept must guide all our mutual actions as well as those directed to the outside world. We urge Catholics and Orthodox in all countries to learn to live together in peace and love, and to be “in harmony with one another” (Rm 15:5). Consequently, it cannot be accepted that disloyal means be used to incite believers to pass from one Church to another, denying them their religious freedom and their traditions. We are called upon to put into practice the precept of the apostle Paul: “Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another's foundation” (Rm 15:20).
Can this be interpreted as the Pope and the Patriarch agreeing (although you can argue that that does not mean that their churches actually teach this now) that RC's should not try to convert the Orthodox and the Orthodox should not try to convert RC's? Maybe Popes and Russian or other Orthodox Patriarchs have said this before and I just don't know.
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
Well, the Orthodox church has taught for a long while (not sure how long) that it's not proper to proselytize either Catholic or Protestant believers.
As far as I know there is pretty recent history of Catholic attempts to convert orthodox.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Does it signal that Kyrill is a bigger player in de-facto terms than Bartholomew?
Hard to say, for me. Bartholomew has met with Pope Francis quite a few times, as well as many other world leaders; and technically he is still "first amongst equals". Kyrill seems to be throwing some weight around, but isn't IMO as ecumenically or diplomatically active or authoritative as Bartholomew.
Personally, it's hard to tell if Kyrill is more concerned with making a power-play within Orthodoxy, or expanding Russian world diplomacy.
I can't see Pope Francis giving his blessing to Russian aggression in Syria, but I can see Putin sending Kyrill to ask for it, nonetheless.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Of course for a Church which has been around for centuries the early 1800s is 'pretty recent'
I certainly would not agree with what the Spanish priest is said to have done - and not just on religious grounds, but general humanitarian grounds.
I recently heard of a Russian city called Magadan away in the frozen North. Surprisingly it has a Roman Catholic church (which is dependent on the RC archdiocese of Anchorage across the Straits in the USA).
The RC priest said that there were a number of Polish former prisoners from work camps still resident there and this justified the construction of an RC church which is now, apparently, a tourist attraction of this little known city.
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