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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Post-ironic hosts?
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
I am relatively new here. Do the hosts always win every argument on the Ship? Hosts in other places used to be really cool in that they let other people win debates. That was the coolness of it all - that it wasn't about brinkmanship or looking good for hosts. The job of the hosts was to make other people look cool and in that deference they became cool too. In getting taken for granted they transcended cool. And people were grateful for it.
Something tells me it is different here.
I await responses with a kind of fearful trepidation. It's not a criticism, it's just an observation.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Most of the time, the volunteers who host these boards post with the same authority as any other Shipmate. In which case they're trying to express their opinions such that others will understand, raise interesting questions, make comments etc , basically to engage in serious discussion (obviously that's for the discussion boards, the emphasis in Heaven, Hell, AS and the Circus is a bit different). If you think their position is crap, then just explain why you think they should re-evaluate their opinions, same as would be the case for anyone else.
These individuals will occasionally have to act in an official manner, to direct threads away from fights or potential legal problems for example. In that case they will clearly indicate that they are posting as a host. If you have a question about a specific hosting decision, then feel free to ask it here in the Styx. The aim of the hosts in taking official action is not to win points over others, it's to stop the Ship descending into chaos with fights all over the place and potential illegal posts abounding.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Most of the time, the volunteers who host these boards post with the same authority as any other Shipmate. In which case they're trying to express their opinions such that others will understand, raise interesting questions, make comments etc , basically to engage in serious discussion (obviously that's for the discussion boards, the emphasis in Heaven, Hell, AS and the Circus is a bit different). If you think their position is crap, then just explain why you think they should re-evaluate their opinions, same as would be the case for anyone else.
These individuals will occasionally have to act in an official manner, to direct threads away from fights or potential legal problems for example. In that case they will clearly indicate that they are posting as a host. If you have a question about a specific hosting decision, then feel free to ask it here in the Styx. The aim of the hosts in taking official action is not to win points over others, it's to stop the Ship descending into chaos with fights all over the place and potential illegal posts abounding.
See? You just can't help yourselves. Over-competitive is what it is.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
In my experience, hosting is fairly light here. If a host intervenes on a thread, it's for a reason* and they will sign off as a host. If anyone wants to challenge a host's post, it can be done (in the Styx) and the hosts will consider other views. Often, a hostly decision has been discussed by several hosts on their own board. These decisions are matters of procedure, not part of the discussion and, yes, the hostly warnings are to be adhered to.
If a host is taking part in a discussion, which they do - they joined the boards for this anyway, they don't sign off as a host and can be argued with like anyone else. If something happens on the thread requiring hostly intervention, a different host will post - so a host won't trump an argument with an official pronouncement.
*Reasons are almost always when posters get close to or step over the lines drawn by the ten commandments (of the board) which are part of the terms and conditions of signing onto these boards.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Well if they're volunteers, they're going to make mistakes or feel aggrieved. Someone pay them.
[ 02. June 2015, 15:17: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It is absolutely impossible to address this accusation without actual evidence.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It is absolutely impossible to address this accusation without actual evidence.
I think my point is made.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Bullshit.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Bullshit.
Bless you too, Sir. Although, maybe you are doing what I asked here?
[ 02. June 2015, 15:24: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Most of the time, the volunteers who host these boards post with the same authority as any other Shipmate. In which case they're trying to express their opinions such that others will understand, raise interesting questions, make comments etc , basically to engage in serious discussion (obviously that's for the discussion boards, the emphasis in Heaven, Hell, AS and the Circus is a bit different). If you think their position is crap, then just explain why you think they should re-evaluate their opinions, same as would be the case for anyone else.
These individuals will occasionally have to act in an official manner, to direct threads away from fights or potential legal problems for example. In that case they will clearly indicate that they are posting as a host. If you have a question about a specific hosting decision, then feel free to ask it here in the Styx. The aim of the hosts in taking official action is not to win points over others, it's to stop the Ship descending into chaos with fights all over the place and potential illegal posts abounding.
See? You just can't help yourselves. Over-competitive is what it is.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Alan's answer sounded to me like a clear, concise, and polite answer to your question. And why you think that hosts should try to make us "look cool" is beyond me. It reminds me of parenting where you let your five-year-old win at checkers to keep up their self-esteem. None of us is five around here, or so I believe.
[ 02. June 2015, 15:30: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Alyosha: why your post is bullshit: your OP reminds me of people who complain, in a hand-wavey sort of manner, that there "is not enough love in the church". If asked for examples, they don't give any, but just say "and a lot of other people feel that way too".
This is absolutely hopeless in terms of addressing any actual issue.
If you have a complaint about how hosts are acting in their capacity as hosts, then you need to argue your case based on evidence. If you don't have any evidence, don't be surprised if you don't find much support for your views. And if you aren't willing to bring any evidence, don't be surprised if nothing changes.
[ 02. June 2015, 15:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
When I post anywhere but Hell, I post as a shipmate and am subject to the same rules and regulations as you.
When I post in Hell without Host tags, ditto.
When I post in Hell with Host tags, and you disagree with that ruling, you have the option to bring it to Styx where we can discuss matters.
So, in answer to your question, no: hosts don't have to win every argument, nor do they expect to, nor do they even want to - though occasionally would be nice.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It is absolutely impossible to address this accusation without actual evidence.
I think my point is made.
No, it isn't. You have not brought any example of your point.
As far as paying people to eliminate mistakes made; can you name a profession which achieves this?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
@OP
Some things are discussions, some things are arguments, some things are discipline/legalities. From my experience hosts do not win all the arguments nor provide the best discussion. They do win all the situations where the basic rules of the forums are violated and where there are legalities or safety issues. But they don't do it alone. They discuss among the host group, and then consult the administrators. Thus, a collective decision making seems to how it works.
If you wish to see this in power dynamic terms you can, but I don't think it really works that way.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Well if they're volunteers, they're going to make mistakes or feel aggrieved. Someone pay them.
I've yet to meet an employed person who is flawless.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Alyosha - sounds like you need a break.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Well if they're volunteers, they're going to make mistakes or feel aggrieved. Someone pay them.
So, you want the hosts to be paid to let you win an argument kind of like the mafia used to pay boxers to take a dive or the White Sox to throw the world series?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
"Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day."
[ 02. June 2015, 17:34: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Fascinating. The Styx exists, amongst other reasons, precisely to provide a means for any Shipmate to take any Host orAdmin to task for any perceived fault in carrying out their responsibilities. So none of us is above criticism.
Personally, I don't think arguments get won or lost here. Differences of opinion get explored, some folks stick to their ground, some folks move their understanding. Personally, I don't keep any kind of score. Someone can post absolutely terrible arguments here - and get shot down for it - but that's not really my concern as a Host. All that matters when I'm Hosting is whether Shipmates "play nicely" in accordance with the 10Cs and guidelines. Making a terrible argument is not against the guidelines, nor is shooting down a terrible argument.
And in general, when I'm posting as a Shipmmate to the extent that I get engaged in the discussion, I recuse myself from Hosting in that thread while I'm active.
So none of my own behaviour is predicated on the thesis that I have to win any argument. I'd be a pretty terrible Host if that was my primary motivation.
It's certainly true that a lot of H & A argue cogently and well for their respective points of view, but then so do a lot of Shipmates. Bad arguments often get shown up here, basically because the collective nose for bullshit is pretty sensitive. But that's just one of the prices you pay for taking part in the threads.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Do the hosts always win every argument on the Ship?
Simple answer is no. I am speaking as a private board host, a one-time 8th day host and a shipmate.
Hosts - when posting as shipmates - are sometimes wrong, sometimes on the wrong side of arguments and sometimes mistaken.
When posting as a host, they represent the authority of the boards, and are always right by definition - they are defining the rules in a case. The Styx is here for occasions where this needs further clarification and refinement.
However, shipmates tend to get asked to be hosts if they behave in a reasonable way, they understand the way that the ship works. All of which means they are liable to be on the winning side of arguments, because they realise what the winning side is liable to be.
It is sometime difficult to distinguish between people who are always agreed with and people who know what side to be on.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
See? You just can't help yourselves. Over-competitive is what it is.
Alan's answer sounded to me like a clear, concise, and polite answer to your question. And why you think that hosts should try to make us "look cool" is beyond me. It reminds me of parenting where you let your five-year-old win at checkers to keep up their self-esteem. None of us is five around here, or so I believe.
It should be clear to everyone that what this situation calls for is a SoF Official Host Cagematch.
I'm willing to host, but everyone will be responsible for their own travel arrangements.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I am relatively new here.
See, there's your problem, right there. You haven't been here long enough for the conclusions you've leapt to bear up under the weight you're trying to pile on them.
OTOH, if you don't care for the moderation here, you aren't required to tolerate it. As you note, "Hosts in other places used to be really cool in that they let other people win debates. That was the coolness of it all - that it wasn't about brinkmanship or looking good for hosts."
Of course, the Ship is also not particularly about "coolness," either (though a little spontaneous coolity has been know to erupt occasionally), and it certainly isn't a Hostly function to make Shipmates look cool. That's up to Shipmates themselves.
You could try it.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Do the hosts always win every argument on the Ship?
A non-host here! The hosts don't even participate in every argument on the Ship, so they can hardly win them all. Of course, a host may participate, but when they do they do so as a shipmate. Hosting has nothing to do with arguing a point in a discussion. It has to do with making sure the Ship operates within its stated commandments and steers clear of treacherous legal waters that could sink it.
And while I am on the topic, I am amazed that you seem to think that arguments are "won" here, by anybody. How do you define that? I cannot recall any discussion thread (at least, not any vigorous one) that ended with all concerned in complete accord. Discussions are not about "winning" but about discussing. You may be persuaded by what another says, but merely because you agree does not mean that the person making the point "won." Merely because you disagree with the majority does not mean you "lost." It is a discussion. The concept of keeping score and declaring a winner and a loser is not applicable in any sensible way. If you are going to use terms like "win" you really should define the term so that we are all discussing the same thing. It obviously means something different to you than to me.
quote:
Hosts in other places used to be really cool in that they let other people win debates.
What usefulness is that to a discussion? So, if I were a host, and you maintained that turtles were part of the equine family, I as host should agree with you to make you happy? That perverts the point of open discussion.
quote:
That was the coolness of it all - that it wasn't about brinkmanship or looking good for hosts.
Again, perhaps you should define your terms. I don't think "brinksmanship" means what you think it does. "Looking good" for the host or anybody seems to get us back to your (in my opinion) misguided belief that there is such a thing as a "winner" in a discussion. As long as we have free and open discussion to make points and respect the points of others, we are all winners. It does not mean we all bow down to one person's view and declare that all must hold the same opinion.
quote:
The job of the hosts was to make other people look cool and in that deference they became cool too.
Nobody's job on the Ship is to make others "look cool"--indeed, I suspect many Shipmates have never even considered the question of whether they were or were not "cool" when posting. The job of a host is as stated before: make sure everybody stays within the Ship's commandments (and avoid legal liability). Unlike many boards, if you disagree with a host's ruling, the Ship, wonder that it is, actually provides a place for one to air grievances. Here in Styx. That is so cool!
quote:
In getting taken for granted they transcended cool. And people were grateful for it.
Although I don't think we say it enough (and I know I don't) I think many Shipmates are immensely grateful to the hosts and admins for all they do. I try to show my gratefulness each year by making a contribution to the Floating Fund. But, while I have the opportunity, let me say here and now: Thank you all for the job you do. I am grateful to you.
quote:
It's not a criticism, it's just an observation.
Well, that is good to know. I am glad that you are not criticizing them. I, in turn, am not criticizing you, but I do think you are mistaken.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't think I've ever seen a host or admin here do anything for brinkmanship. Except maybe RooK but he's earned it. This Styx thread isn't even worth popping corn for.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Alan's answer sounded to me like a clear, concise, and polite answer to your question.
Well, that was what I was aiming at. I was also aiming at general because I didn't know whether there was any particular example to be addressed.
I'm always willing to try and clarify further, but only if I'm told what wasn't clear the first time around.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Well if they're volunteers, they're going to make mistakes or feel aggrieved. Someone pay them.
I don't agree with much else you've posted on this thread, but this right here is a fabulous idea.
How much are you going to chip in? Daddy needs a new DB9.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Why waste money on a posermobile when you can buy a real Porsche?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Why waste money on a posermobile when you can buy a real Porsche?
Tsk. Brinkmanship.
PS: Thank you.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Why waste money on a posermobile when you can buy a real Porsche?
I prefer to buy British.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Why waste money on a posermobile when you can buy a real Porsche?
I prefer real sports cars.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I await responses with a kind of fearful trepidation. It's not a criticism, it's just an observation.
Alyohsa, I am not a host, but I'm very curious about your posts. What sort of responses were you expecting or wanting? Why were you making the observation that this site isn't like the cool sites where people were grateful for their hosts' coolness, and that hosts here can't help themselves and are always over-competitive? As there were not not criticisms, do you see them as neutral observations, like observing that someone has long hair, or brown eyes? Were you wanting a simple 'Oh', or 'Thanks for the observation', rather than hearing people's thoughts on what you said?
Also, did you mean 'brinkmanship' or did you mean 'oneupmanship'? This is confusing me, because the rest of your post seems to be talking about oneupmanship, and the brinkmanship bit doesn't really fit.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Why waste money on a posermobile when you can buy a real Porsche?
I prefer to buy British.
Ah - your lover must be a garage mechanic.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I'd be delighted to be paid in DB9s. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Furreal.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Vehicle fun aside, I think Fineline's thoughtful post asked a good question as well as making a good point. The brinkmanship thing had puzzled me, too.
Aloysha, if you haven't given up on us as incorrigible, maybe you could clarify?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Vehicle fun aside, I think Fineline's thoughtful post asked a good question as well as making a good point. The brinkmanship thing had puzzled me, too.
Aloysha, if you haven't given up on us as incorrigible, maybe you could clarify?
Hi all, I was just listening to your comments and nursing my sore head.
Yes, I got the word wrong, I meant oneupmanship rather than brinkmanship. Doh.
I wasn't deliberately trying to rock the ship and meant no harm in the observation. Where I come from people are allowed to make comments and ask questions and not really feel that it is an awful thing that they have just uttered. But like most of you, I am used to being browbeaten too.
Some of you (in between calling me uncool and childish) were asking for my motives in making the comment. I think (and a person can never be sure with motives) that it was just an idle, good natured observation. I hadn't really intended for it to offend anyone or make anyone feel bad. I thought it would make the hosts think a little more and be a little more considerate. I had intended it as a kind of gentle nudge. Is that allowed?
I understand that the hosts and Admin's roles seem to be voluntary (but, I mean, is that fair on you?).
So, Godfather quotes aside (and worried about receiving a horse's head in my bed) I did feel a little browbeaten by the responses. If you find this response from me a personal fault (a user error) in the face of 'rubust debate' then it does really prove my point. I know you are not stupid and most of you are able to see the irony in such a thread as this.
But I do defer to you all and as a result I apologise for being an arse. I am sorry.
Or maybe I'm just trying to make you all look cool?
[ 04. June 2015, 07:09: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I understand that the hosts and Admin's roles seem to be voluntary (but, I mean, is that fair on you?).
Oh, absolutely unfair, but we do get chocolate once a year.
But seriously, this place is run on a shoestring, by volunteers. Not sure about the others, but over the years I've developed both affection and respect for the value of our idiosyncracies. Doing it for nothing is still a privilege for me.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I understand that the hosts and Admin's roles seem to be voluntary (but, I mean, is that fair on you?).
If you, or anyone else, knows of a place that actually pays a decent wage to forum hosts, please let me know.
Seriously, the economics of web forums - even those operated by relatively large organisations, which SoF isn't - are such that almost all mods everywhere are volunteers.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Alyosha, a lot of groups that are set up for sharing a mutual interest, both online and in real life, are run by volunteers - they don't make profit. I've been a volunteer host on a different site, and volunteered in a local 'real life' group too. In my experience, people volunteer because the group is important to them, and they want to give to it and keep it going.
In my experience, too, people can feel very resentful of hosts, because they are seen as having a position of 'power' - on the site where I was a host, we hosts had all kinds of bizarre accusations hurled at us. The one thing people seemed to resent the most was that we were friends - that we were a 'clique' as they saw it, and we stood up for each other, and we laughed at some of the silly accusations (as well as doing our hostly duties to assist people when they had a genuine problem with the site). But then hosts on a site often are people who have been on the site a while and have got to know each other and started to form a rapport. And of course that rapport is strengthened when working together, especially if you are all receiving a lot of weird accusations!
What I find here on the Ship, as someone who does not post regularly and has never been one of the 'cool' ones (or even the coolly uncool ones!), is that there are a lot of people (not all hosts) who have been here ages and have formed a good rapport, and they banter a lot, and sometimes refer to in-jokes. I find this is common on online groups where a core of people have formed a good rapport, and it can of course make newcomers feel like an outsider, especially when the rapport is a bit of a 'one-upmanship' rapport. I do see one-upmanship here, not particularly in hosts, but in general, but I think it's largely a banter thing, that everyone knows they are doing. Like a kind of fun game. At the same time, I think sometimes people do show off, and try to show how clever they are. Or how tough they are. But there are always people who show off, or try extra hard to be accepted, in any group, and they generally look to display whatever qualities the group seems to value.
As for your intentions with your posts, well, if I were a host, I think I would find it odd to be compared to hosts from other sites, who, unlike me, were so cool that they didn't need to make themselves look cool, and that they thus 'transcended cool' - and then to be told that was not a criticism but just an observation. It would be quite hard to read that as anything other than a criticism! And if I, as a host who in your judgement clearly didn't transcend cool, were to try to engage with you and explain to you the intentions of the hosts, and you were to reply with 'See? You just can't help yourselves. Over-competitive is what it is.' I would find that a bit hostile, and a bit competitive in itself (the 'See?' suggests 'I'm right! You've proved it!' rather than a genuine desire for discussion and to understand the values of the ship).
See how I quoted you and gave some specific examples there, of how your posts might come across a bit rude. If you could do that with the posts you are referring to in your original post, then the hosts would better be able to address your concerns. It's hard to know how to address a vague accusation. When Eutychus said 'It is absolutely impossible to address this accusation without actual evidence' I understood where he was coming from and I genuinely didn't understand your reply of 'I think my point is made.'
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I love to knit. Would I knit you a woollie for money. No way. a) you wouldn't pay me the real value of my time and skill ( That much? But I could buy one for that!) b) I wouldn't enjoy doing it because it would no longer be a free choice.
Same thing with The Ship. What we give to it - as either Shippies or Crew - is not for sale.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I understand that the hosts and Admin's roles seem to be voluntary (but, I mean, is that fair on you?).
Of course it is. It's not as if we didn't know beforehand.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I want to look cool. Just once ever. Please, nice hosts, can one of you make me look cool? Please?
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
(though a little spontaneous coolity has been know to erupt occasionally)
Where? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Can you provide links to back up that assertion?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
How about trying The ice bucket challenge
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
luvanddaisies, we are not equipt with magic wands.
Alyosha, that was banter.
All kidding aside, Fineline once again sums it up with her excellent post, particularly this:
quote:
As for your intentions with your posts, well, if I were a host, I think I would find it odd to be compared to hosts from other sites, who, unlike me, were so cool that they didn't need to make themselves look cool, and that they thus 'transcended cool' - and then to be told that was not a criticism but just an observation. It would be quite hard to read that as anything other than a criticism! And if I, as a host who in your judgement clearly didn't transcend cool, were to try to engage with you and explain to you the intentions of the hosts, and you were to reply with 'See? You just can't help yourselves. Over-competitive is what it is.' I would find that a bit hostile, and a bit competitive in itself (the 'See?' suggests 'I'm right! You've proved it!' rather than a genuine desire for discussion and to understand the values of the ship).
See how I quoted you and gave some specific examples there, of how your posts might come across a bit rude. If you could do that with the posts you are referring to in your original post, then the hosts would better be able to address your concerns. It's hard to know how to address a vague accusation. When Eutychus said 'It is absolutely impossible to address this accusation without actual evidence' I understood where he was coming from and I genuinely didn't understand your reply of 'I think my point is made.'
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Where I come from people are allowed to make comments and ask questions and not really feel that it is an awful thing that they have just uttered. But like most of you, I am used to being browbeaten too.
Alright, this is too provocative to pass.
Where are you coming from, if you please?
This very board is one to allow questioning of hosting, so how do you reconcile this with the statement we're not allowed to question?
The browbeaten bit has me scratching my head. Genuinely so.
I've a few sensitive spots, and bullying is one of them. So I tend to notice.
Again , I am genuinely curious to see what you think qualifies as the behaviour you describe.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I want to look cool. Just once ever. Please, nice hosts, can one of you make me look cool? Please?
I'm deeply uncool, so come and have your photograph taken with me, L-and-D, and you'll look cooler than an iceberg.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Anyone who thinks the authorities here post to "win arguments" has not posted much on any other hosted discussion forum.
On the hosting: try posting this shit on the Guardian's CIF and see what happens: instant deletion of post, sometimes instant deletion of account, no discussion or appeal.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Eutychus:If you have a complaint about how hosts are acting in their capacity as hosts, then you need to argue your case based on evidence.
As it happens I do have a problem.
After a reasoned discussion IMV in Kerg, between Steve Langton and others on canonicity,
eg Steve over several posts writes:
"Extant copies of most of the New Testament", if I remember rightly, would be the Chester-Beatty papyrus collection dated to the mid-200s. I'm not sure, mind, how relevant 'extant copies' are to the argument. I believe until the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery there were no known 'extant copies' of the Hebrew OT prior to 1000CE; and the same also applied to most Western literature such as Caesar's writings. Clearly the NT documents existed by mid-2C (mid-100s) at latest even on a cynical view of their origin.
You may recall that one of the causes of the 'Donatist' dispute was the unwillingness of the Donatists to forgive, and accept as bishops, the 'traditors' who had too readily surrendered scriptures. This argues again that at least the main outline of what was 'scripture' was known at the time of the persecutions shortly before Constantine's time.
Again, "you can easily get access to other scriptures by traveling long distances (and convincing your friend who can read to come with you)" is not what I said, is it? I simply reminded you of the obvious that there was considerable contact between early churches and they were not necessarily limited by their immediate resources. I don't even begin to be interested in a discussion you carry on in this way.
And BTW I have been thinking about your list of possible resources for an early church and wondering how likely it is that of all the possible OT books they might have, they'd have Esther !!
I made a modest statement based on what I had read of Anabaptist practice and suggested a similarity to the possibilities in the early church; limited literacy, limited physical copies, but great concern to be biblical, in essence. End of; not interested in your further nit-picking....
Mousethief then posts this.
quote:
Mousethief
Dismantling stupid comparisons is not nitpicking. It's discussion or if you like debate. Statements that cannot stand scrutiny have no business in this kind of discussion, and "la la la la la" is not a viable defense of an otherwise indefensible claim.
Now how, with the use of pejorative terms such as 'stupid', and 'indefensible'is that not an implied ad hominem comment? Steve is clearly neither ill informed nor stupid. Nor does he engage in any refusal to respond to counter argumenmts or 'lalala' behaviour. His view of a historical situation contained the kind of evidence one could present in a historical argument Why is it then acceptable to allow a comment like Mousethief's?
Is he not for want of as better term 'being a jerk', simply because he has a contrary view but fails to defend it himself?
Now you can say as I expect you will, 'Call him to Hell if you have an issue'. However, I have no problem with him only with the rather grey borders of where disagreement deteriorates into abuse. I know all the hosts are volunteers but I personally have been the subject of plenty of vitriolic comments from people here outside Hell and find hostly intervention slow and mostly ineffectual and usually backing a majority view.
What you are doing as hosts has the net effect of driving contrary views off the ship leaving a majority of members to pee in each others pockets.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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