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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How relevant is Christianity in today's Britain?
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
Is seems to me, having examined the 2011 census, that the observance of Christianity is in a steep decline.
The number of people who have no affiliation to any religious creed is on the increase.
[Title spelling corrected]
[ 14. March 2016, 08:00: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Maybe you'd like to narrow the focus of your question a bit? By "Christianity", do you mean formal worship, or adherence to the Christian moral code, personal identification, or...?
The Canadian province of Quebec has probably the lowest rate of church attendance in the country, but also one of the highest percentages of people identifying as Christian(mostly Catholic) on the census. Higher than places like Alberta, in fact, which is traditionally regarded as the "Bible Belt" of Canada, in terms of religious influence on sociopolitical views.
So, it might make a difference what type of "relevance" you're talking about.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
From my reading of the analyses of the census returns, available on the internet, the numbers who do not identify themselves with religion, is on the increase. I suggest that you goglee this yourself.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
From my reading of the analyses of the census returns, available on the internet, the numbers who do not identify themselves with religion, is on the increase. I suggest that you goglee this yourself.
I'm not doubting that the numbers of non-identified are on the increase. Did you read my post?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
Yes, I did read your post. I am talking about the UK, you are talking about Canada, or so it seems to me.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The decline in the number of individuals who identify as Christian or regularly attend Christian worship is not necessarily the same as a decline in Christian influence. There is still considerable Christian influence in the country - some trivial (eg: that many of our public holidays are Christian festivals, or rugby fans sing hymns) others more significant (eg: that politicians claiming Christian faith are generally considered to be better for it, whereas atheists are somehow considered less worthy of public office). We still have politicians (many of whom would probably struggle to recognise the gospel) claiming the UK is a "Christian Country", although they do so while pursuing policies often diametrically opposed to the teaching of the Bible and Church Tradition.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Yes, I did read your post. I am talking about the UK, you are talking about Canada, or so it seems to me.
It was an EXAMPLE of how census-identification might not give you the best picture of the relevance of religion in peoples' lives.
Moving back to the UK, it sounds like you have a lot of people listing "no religion" on the census, but still pretty widespread support for maintaining an established church. To give you an example of a British discrepancy between statistics and actual practice.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
There are many in the UK who perform "charitable works" but who do not associate themselves with any religious group whatsoever.
The decline of numbers in the pew on a Sunday must be indicative of something.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
There are many in the UK who perform "charitable works" but who do not associate themselves with any religious group whatsoever.
The decline of numbers in the pew on a Sunday must be indicative of something.
Well, I would guess it's either a lack of belief in the religious tenets of Christianity, or at least a lack of belief in the relevance of church attendance.
Are there any surveys about how many Brits believe in God, the divinity of Jesus, etc? If those numbers parallel the number of non-identified on the census, that might be your connection.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The decline in the number of individuals who identify as Christian or regularly attend Christian worship is not necessarily the same as a decline in Christian influence. There is still considerable Christian influence in the country - some trivial (eg: that many of our public holidays are Christian festivals, or rugby fans sing hymns) others more significant (eg: that politicians claiming Christian faith are generally considered to be better for it, whereas atheists are somehow considered less worthy of public office). We still have politicians (many of whom would probably struggle to recognise the gospel) claiming the UK is a "Christian Country", although they do so while pursuing policies often diametrically opposed to the teaching of the Bible and Church Tradition.
And, if you were to ask all the non-believers who are ancestrally Christian "Would you prefer that immigrants to the UK be Christians, or adherents to some other relgiion?", how many would answer "Oh, it doesn't matter, I'm not really Christian anyway"?
My guess is you would have at least some of them opining that it DOES matter, and that they would prefer Christians. Though I suppose, if they're truly secularized, they might be okay with atheist immigrants.
[ 13. March 2016, 13:46: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Yes, I did read your post. I am talking about the UK, you are talking about Canada, or so it seems to me.
It was an EXAMPLE of how census-identification might not give you the best picture of the relevance of religion in peoples' lives.
Moving back to the UK, it sounds like you have a lot of people listing "no religion" on the census, but still pretty widespread support for maintaining an established church.
I don't think it is so much a matter of 'supporting' the established church, I think it is more because it is the cultural background that is just sort of 'there' and can be happily ignored, used when required - especially if people are not aware of, for instance, non-religious funerals - but for which there is no solid, stable, secure, safe, and really strong enough replacement available yet. As soon as there is, then it will become the accepted, cultural background, which, like the CofE now, most people ignore!
I think that people take note of the current advances in knowledge of medicine and of space so this in itself is providing a background where evidence is available and is thus so much more reliable than, for instance, the religious excuses given by terrorists for their acts.
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
There are many in the UK who perform "charitable works" but who do not associate themselves with any religious group whatsoever.
The decline of numbers in the pew on a Sunday must be indicative of something.
Well, I would guess it's either a lack of belief in the religious tenets of Christianity, or at least a lack of belief in the relevance of church attendance.
Are there any surveys about how many Brits believe in God, the divinity of Jesus, etc? If those numbers parallel the number of non-identified on the census, that might be your connection.
I know of no such survey, perhaps you do.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
especially if people are not aware of, for instance, non-religious funerals - but for which there is no solid, stable, secure, safe, and really strong enough replacement available yet.
What does "strength" mean in the context of a funeral? Of course it's possible to have a secular funeral just like it's possible to have a secular wedding.
I wouldn't say there was a "strong" secular alternative to a church wedding - more that there's a vast array of possibilities and people make up their own thing. There are certainly non-religious people who get married in church to please Grandma, and others who do it because the church is an attractive middle-ages stone building, but most non-religious people don't get married in church these days.
Maybe it's because nobody wants to "plan" a funeral the way they plan a wedding, so the pre-made church service is an easier and more comforting option than trying to make decisions?
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I don't think it is so much a matter of 'supporting' the established church, I think it is more because it is the cultural background that is just sort of 'there' and can be happily ignored, used when required - especially if people are not aware of, for instance, non-religious funerals - but for which there is no solid, stable, secure, safe, and really strong enough replacement available yet. As soon as there is, then it will become the accepted, cultural background, which, like the CofE now, most people ignore!
Are there really a significant number of people in the UK who are not aware that it is possible to have a non-religious funeral?
I suspect it's more like people ARE aware that they can get a secular send-off at the funeral parlour, but that the idea of doing it that way just seems somehow strange and foreign to them. Which raises questions about lingering religious identification in the public consciousness.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
There are many in the UK who perform "charitable works" but who do not associate themselves with any religious group whatsoever.
The decline of numbers in the pew on a Sunday must be indicative of something.
Well, I would guess it's either a lack of belief in the religious tenets of Christianity, or at least a lack of belief in the relevance of church attendance.
Are there any surveys about how many Brits believe in God, the divinity of Jesus, etc? If those numbers parallel the number of non-identified on the census, that might be your connection.
I know of no such survey, perhaps you do.
So, basically, the only point you want to make here is that fewer Britons are identifying as religious on the census?
Well, I'm sure that's true. Duly noted.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I would guess it's either a lack of belief in the religious tenets of Christianity, or at least a lack of belief in the relevance of church attendance.
Those are two hugely different concepts. Seems like a lot of people think the Christian concept of God is important but church is pretty much irrelevant.
There is also an increase in atheism but also in "spiritual but not religious" - does the UK census have that category?
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
especially if people are not aware of, for instance, non-religious funerals - but for which there is no solid, stable, secure, safe, and really strong enough replacement available yet.
What does "strength" mean in the context of a funeral? Of course it's possible to have a secular funeral just like it's possible to have a secular wedding.
I wouldn't say there was a "strong" secular alternative to a church wedding - more that there's a vast array of possibilities and people make up their own thing. There are certainly non-religious people who get married in church to please Grandma, and others who do it because the church is an attractive middle-ages stone building, but most non-religious people don't get married in church these days.
Maybe it's because nobody wants to "plan" a funeral the way they plan a wedding, so the pre-made church service is an easier and more comforting option than trying to make decisions?
Many people like to have a church wedding (if they bother to get married) because it looks nice in the photos.
As for funerals, 15 minutes in the crematorium with a rendition of some pop song.
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Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I would guess it's either a lack of belief in the religious tenets of Christianity, or at least a lack of belief in the relevance of church attendance.
Those are two hugely different concepts. Seems like a lot of people think the Christian concept of God is important but church is pretty much irrelevant.
There is also an increase in atheism but also in "spiritual but not religious" - does the UK census have that category?
You have access to the internet, so you too can inspect the data.
If church is being seen as irrelevant, what is being done to address it?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Quantifiably 1% of 3%, about 0.03% of the population's time.
As I wrote elsewhere this morning: "Just watched The Big Questions on BBC1. This time ALL the Abrahamic faiths disappointed. Usually beautifully humane Muslims and Jews knock the always bitter, fearful damnationist Christians in to a cocked hat. The Christians were the worst as usual, INCLUDING Professor Linda Woodhead, but they ALL failed spectacularly up against a humanist and 95% of the audience. ..."
It looked like a 100% actually.
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Love wins
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It is not the observance of Christianity that is decreasing - in many areas it is on the increase.
What has happened is that whereas the default for forms used to be 'c of e', even though people were not practicing Christians in the sense of worship and identification, now they are more ready to be more specific. I know someone who calls himself Christian as he sees it as a sign of his moral compass.
As for non-religious funerals, those secular celebrants I have spoken to are often asked to include the Lord's prayer. Afaik it is only 'humanists' who refuse to mention God at all.
It seems that secular celebrants have freed up religious ministers for more outreach, and so churches are growing rather than decreasing.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Frankenstein
You do know don't you that the 2011 census was designed to have a drop in numbers because the 2001 survey was felt to overstate the level of commitment in the UK to Christianity. I have this from Abby Day who advised the census people on this issue.
Only someone who is naive about the interpretative quality of statistics would believe that the decline is as steep as indicated by the survey. For an actual comparison, you might like BRIN (British Religion in Numbers) prefer to use the British Social Attitudes Survey which is conducted annual and has been asking about Religious affiliation since 1983.
Happy exploring of those sites.
Jengie
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Frankenstein
You do know don't you that the 2011 census was designed to have a drop in numbers because the 2001 survey was felt to overstate the level of commitment in the UK to Christianity. I have this from Abby Day who advised the census people on this issue.
Only someone who is naive about the interpretative quality of statistics would believe that the decline is as steep as indicated by the survey. For an actual comparison, you might like BRIN (British Religion in Numbers) prefer to use the British Social Attitudes Survey which is conducted annual and has been asking about Religious affiliation since 1983.
Happy exploring of those sites.
Jengie
So the 2011 census was rigged. Perhaps you will tell me that the last election was also rigged?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Oh, just for the record, I made a Hell call.
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Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It depends on who you mix with, or what kind of Britain you are thinking of. In terms of my family and friends, Christianity is highly irrelevant, but of course, that is anecdotal.
But my grandparents were atheists, so I trace the decline of religion back to then. Maybe back to 1800 or so, when the plebs seemed to stop going to church.
It seems refreshing to me. God is still here, unencumbered by the 'mind forg'd manacles' of religion.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
With the decline going at the rate it is, one wonders how the Royals will deal with it in 20 to 30 years time. It'll be just pagent with no substance I suppose, that is presuming a different religion hasn't come to fill the vacuum demanding such observances are no longer carried out.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
With the decline going at the rate it is, one wonders how the Royals will deal with it in 20 to 30 years time. It'll be just pagent with no substance I suppose, that is presuming a different religion hasn't come to fill the vacuum demanding such observances are no longer carried out.
The Prince of Wales who might become King, has said that he felt he should become defender of faiths.
The Queen remains the head of the Church of England.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
especially if people are not aware of, for instance, non-religious funerals - but for which there is no solid, stable, secure, safe, and really strong enough replacement available yet.
What does "strength" mean in the context of a funeral?
Ah, I see I should have put the clause 'especially ....
funerals' in brackets because the next part relates to what came before..
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
With the decline going at the rate it is, one wonders how the Royals will deal with it in 20 to 30 years time. It'll be just pagent with no substance I suppose, that is presuming a different religion hasn't come to fill the vacuum demanding such observances are no longer carried out.
I think you're probably right, but the traditions of Trooping the Colour, changing guard, occasions such as coronations, etc will have to change, but I bet there will always be enough creative theatrical minds to come up with something which will quickly be accepted as being just right.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
The Prince of Wales who might become King, has said that he felt he should become defender of faiths.
The Queen remains the head of the Church of England.
How exactly do you defend a faith that that no longer has followers or patrons .
There is such a thing as revival but the Cof never has had much time for these kind of movements.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
s will deal with it in 20 to 30 years time. It'll be just pagent with no substance I suppose, that is presuming a different religion hasn't come to fill the vacuum demanding such observances are no longer carried out.
The Prince of Wales who might become King, has said that he felt he should become defender of faiths.
The Queen remains the head of the Church of England. [/QB][/QUOTE]
No she doesn't - that's Jesus.
She is its 'supreme governor'.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Frankenstein
You do know don't you that the 2011 census was designed to have a drop in numbers because the 2001 survey was felt to overstate the level of commitment in the UK to Christianity. I have this from Abby Day who advised the census people on this issue.
Only someone who is naive about the interpretative quality of statistics would believe that the decline is as steep as indicated by the survey. For an actual comparison, you might like BRIN (British Religion in Numbers) prefer to use the British Social Attitudes Survey which is conducted annual and has been asking about Religious affiliation since 1983.
Happy exploring of those sites.
Jengie
So the 2011 census was rigged. Perhaps you will tell me that the last election was also rigged?
Not really according to how you ask a question you can get very different results. If anything, it was felt that the way the 2001 question had been asked had led to results that were an over-optimistic view on how much Christianity prevailed in society. Even the Christian commentators at the time were surprised at the percentage. Thus, it could be argued that the 2011 census was a better presentation of the actual way the public believes. What is really the case is the absolute figures mean little, provided a consistent manner of questioning is carried out the relative figures are indicators of change but only if consistent and the two censuses are not consistent.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
s will deal with it in 20 to 30 years time. It'll be just pagent with no substance I suppose, that is presuming a different religion hasn't come to fill the vacuum demanding such observances are no longer carried out.
The Prince of Wales who might become King, has said that he felt he should become defender of faiths.
The Queen remains the head of the Church of England.
No she doesn't - that's Jesus.e
She is its 'supreme governor'. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I thought she was defender of the faith.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
s will deal with it in 20 to 30 years time. It'll be just pagent with no substance I suppose, that is presuming a different religion hasn't come to fill the vacuum demanding such observances are no longer carried out.
The Prince of Wales who might become King, has said that he felt he should become defender of faiths.
The Queen remains the head of the Church of England.
No she doesn't - that's Jesus.e
She is its 'supreme governor'.
I thought she was defender of the faith. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Apparently Henry 8 saw himself as supreme head.
This title was also given to his son Edward.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I'm not a language pedant (I hope) but there seems to be a shift in meaning of the word relevant, as illustrated by the OP, where a thing is only relevant if people think it is. So relevant = "recognised as relevant". I prefer to say that relevant means something like "impacts on" or "influences a point of view".
So to me, Christianity is relevant to the extent that it is true. You could even weaken this to say something is relevant if it would have significant impact if it is true. So whilst I am a skeptic as regards androgenic climate change as currently pushed by received opinion, I would admit that it is relevant, since I should not dismiss it lightly, given that if it is true then there are consequences. and it's not obviously barmy.
The problem here with Christianity is that it is not part of the accepted intellectual framework that is reflected by the media. And lets face it, most people are influenced by what's on the media agenda.
I admit that you can push the weaker definition too far. You can't end up pushing any half-arsed idea as relevant just because "you never know".
So I accept that a declining number view christianity as relevant to their lives or society, but that doesn't make them right. Nor do I decide relevance by a show of hands.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I'm not a language pedant (I hope) but there seems to be a shift in meaning of the word relevant, as illustrated by the OP, where a thing is only relevant if people think it is. So relevant = "recognised as relevant". I prefer to say that relevant means something like "impacts on" or "influences a point of view".
So to me, Christianity is relevant to the extent that it is true. You could even weaken this to say something is relevant if it would have significant impact if it is true. So whilst I am a skeptic as regards androgenic climate change as currently pushed by received opinion, I would admit that it is relevant, since I should not dismiss it lightly, given that if it is true then there are consequences. and it's not obviously barmy.
The problem here with Christianity is that it is not part of the accepted intellectual framework that is reflected by the media. And lets face it, most people are influenced by what's on the media agenda.
I admit that you can push the weaker definition too far. You can't end up pushing any half-arsed idea as relevant just because "you never know".
So I accept that a declining number view christianity as relevant to their lives or society, but that doesn't make them right. Nor do I decide relevance by a show of hands.
So as not to give you a sleepless night..
Instead of relevant, would you accept applies to me or is applicable to me?
May be the question should be:
To what extent do people attempt to live life according to the teachings of Christ?
Or to what extent are people aware of Christ?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
To what extent do people attempt to live life according to the teachings of Christ?
Or to what extent are people aware of Christ?
Are those interchangeable? If someone tries to live by Christ's basic moral teachings (which are far from unique with him, let's face it), but don't realize that they are associated with Christ, then they are indeed attempting to live life according to his teachings, but may be completely unaware that they are doing so. Think of Emeth in The Last Battle.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Frankenstein--
ISTM that most of your comments on this thread come down to "Things aren't the way they used to be, and that's bad". Is that what you mean?
And charitable works are good things, no matter who does them.
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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Frankenstein--
ISTM that most of your comments on this thread come down to "Things aren't the way they used to be, and that's bad". Is that what you mean?
And charitable works are good things, no matter who does them.
No and no
How can charitable works be bad?
Assuming the motavation to be good..
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
To me, the difficulty is that the discussion so far has failed to address the question in the thread title.
We have evidence that proportion of the population regularly attending Christian worship, who choose to have their weddings or funerals in church, or who self-identify as Christian is steadily falling. Those are figures that I don't think anyone would disagree with, especially if we look at trends over the last 50 years or so (I'm aware that some are suggesting that over the last decade there may have been a halt, even a small reversal, in those trends).
But, is that the same as saying that Christianity is less relevant than 50 years ago? It would only be the same if relevance is measured by a numbers game, of the numbers of people who explicitly identify with the Christian faith in some way. But, I think the relevance of the Christian faith is greater than that.
As an example, I would say that the vast majority of the British population would consider the moral teachings of Christ to be something to aspire to. They may not know what those teachings are beyond a general "help those in need, do no harm to others", but they would like to think that those principles underlie much of British society - from the NHS and welfare state, through to celebrating those who put themselves out to help others whether directly like voluntary rescue services or indirectly by running a marathon in a rabbit suit for charity. That means that when church representatives make statements on what Jesus would say in response to current issues (eg: would he turn away refugees) then those pronouncements are reported and listened to.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
And charitable works are good regardless of who does them.
The good Samaritan in Christ's parable makes this point.
The Samaritan were despised by the Jews but Christ shows him as doing good work.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As an example, I would say that the vast majority of the British population would consider the moral teachings of Christ to be something to aspire to. They may not know what those teachings are beyond a general "help those in need, do no harm to others", but they would like to think that those principles underlie much of British society - from the NHS and welfare state, through to celebrating those who put themselves out to help others whether directly like voluntary rescue services or indirectly by running a marathon in a rabbit suit for charity. That means that when church representatives make statements on what Jesus would say in response to current issues (eg: would he turn away refugees) then those pronouncements are reported and listened to.
Your arguement would hold if there were no other faiths. Charitable works are not restricted to Christians.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As an example, I would say that the vast majority of the British population would consider the moral teachings of Christ to be something to aspire to. They may not know what those teachings are beyond a general "help those in need, do no harm to others", but they would like to think that those principles underlie much of British society - from the NHS and welfare state, through to celebrating those who put themselves out to help others whether directly like voluntary rescue services or indirectly by running a marathon in a rabbit suit for charity. That means that when church representatives make statements on what Jesus would say in response to current issues (eg: would he turn away refugees) then those pronouncements are reported and listened to.
Your arguement would hold if there were no other faiths. Charitable works are not restricted to Christians.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Of course charitable works are not restricted to Christians. But, the question isn't about the relevance of non-Christian faiths.
Besides, in the UK if you were to ask people about the basis for assessing questions of morality, ethics or justice the top two answers would be
- Some variation on "it's common sense" (including arguments about natural law, how we help others because we might need help someday etc)
- The teaching of Jesus
I'm not going to hazard a guess on which of those would be most dominant. But, "the teaching of Jesus" answer would be given by a larger group of people than regular church goers.
The teaching of Mohammed, Buddha etc would be way down the list of responses.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
So to me, Christianity is relevant to the extent that it is true.
This is odd. I think I can fairly say you do not think animistic religions are "true", but it would be foolish to deny that they had no influence in their time.
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
The problem here with Christianity is that it is not part of the accepted intellectual framework that is reflected by the media.
ISTM, this is not quite accurate. Whilst the media have varying degrees of treatment of religion, at its core, Britain is a Christian culture. Culture is pervasive in one's views even when rejecting or ignoring elements of it.
If disestablishment occurred and every Christian citizen converted or became atheist, Britain would still be a Christian culture for a long time.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Alan
OP says dramatic decline, that is different from steady decline. Actually, let me deal with the difference between the two. The first is that there is no doubt that decline in practice or active affiliation at any level. What is not clear is the disassociation with Christianity and being British is happening. Indeed, trends in society I dislike may well be reinforcing it.
This is what caused the high level in 2001 where the Census managed to actual pole the idea that people thought they were Christian because they were Christian. The intention was to measure the level of affiliation. So people who accept none of the doctrines of the Church and never make contact with the Church still identified themselves as Christian. They are saying "I am a British native".
Yes there is decline; I would suggest stemming from the 1950s. The Roman Catholics and the Presbyterians in England still increased for a while (Presbyterians peaking in 1970s and the Roman Catholics I think 1980s). With mainstream Nonconformity (Congregational, Methodist and Baptists) in England were in decline from 1890s.
Is the institutional church declining? An interesting question, it is certainly reshaping. Goodhew argue that there is a huge growth outside the traditional Church. What is in decline are the historic denominations. There is thus a privatisations, due to the theology of the growing parts of the Church.
So on one level "Christianity" as a flag to wave is pretty high and "Christianity" as private practice is not doing that badly but Christianity as a participating voice in public debate is in severe decline.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
OP says dramatic decline, that is different from steady decline.
And, I said "steady decline" because I'm not convinced the evidence exists to support a "dramatic decline". Though, of course, one should really define "steady" and "dramatic".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
OK, look it seems to me we can all agree that there is quite a large decline in the numbers of people attending all kinds of church today than there was 50 years ago. Indeed, there are far fewer church congregations than there were 50 years ago, even with the emergence of various movements outwith of the traditional denominations.
But I agree with the other comments, the "relevancy" and "influence" of Christianity on British society is a much more difficult thing to unpick. The residual effect of much higher levels of religiosity will take many generations to be completely washed from society (if it ever happens).
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