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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What motivates the left/the right
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
In the 'gay bakery' thread in the 'Dead Horse' section there has been the following exchanges
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I think what people are talking about when they speak about the "illiberal left" is exactly the attitude that you are displaying here.
Okay, well that's probably not surprising, because I'm probably one of the people who constitute the "illiberal left" insofar as that designation makes any sense. I suggest the "moral left" would be a better term, as what drives the "illiberalism" (and the "left" part of it, for that matter) is a strong moral code and strong sense of moral outrage at the evils the religious right has been perpetrating. I'm not prepared to stand by and give evil a free pass, and so in that sense I'm "intolerant" and "illiberal".
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Oh Please! What would the left know about strong moral codes?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
What did you think motivated people on the left?
Pride, envy, wrath, amongst other things
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
The entire concept of human rights, the basic modern political paradigm, utilitarianism, the social gospel, universal healthcare, etc are all products of liberalism or the left.
So various things the left likes are products of the left. Your point being?
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
What did you think motivated people on the left?
Pride, envy, wrath, amongst other things
As Mousethief has pointed out, those things seem to often be what motivates the right.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
The entire concept of human rights, the basic modern political paradigm, utilitarianism, the social gospel, universal healthcare, etc are all products of liberalism or the left.
So various things the left likes are products of the left. Your point being?
You asked "What would the left know about strong moral codes?" So let's take human rights. Over a couple of centuries, liberals basically created the concept of human rights out of nothing, enshrined it into international law, and proceeded to enforce it globally. Does globally enforcing a moral code sound to you like a group that knows nothing "about strong moral codes"?
In reply to the final two points I would say that yes these things are found on the right but more commonly they are found on the left and crucially they are frequently what motivates the left.
On the second point I would say that inventing and enforcing legal codes is not the same thing as living by moral codes, as the entire history of communism demonstrates.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
How do you know what motivates people?
Do you have a window into men's souls?
Why do we have to take a dualistic and binary view of these things? There are jerks on the left and there are jerks on the right.
There are also jerks in the middle.
Being 'on the left' is no more congruent with Communism than being 'on the right' necessarily equates to fascism.
I tend to be reasonably centre left, but it all depends on where you're standing in the first place. I'd probably look very lefty to a lot of right-wing Americans but not very lefty at all to people who are on the 'hard left' as it were.
There are gradations and nuances. Haven't you noticed?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Is there such a thing as 'the left'? I'm not sure how you are going to subsume everybody from Tony Blair to Mao into one big Gladstone bag, but I'm interested in how this can be demonstrated, (rather than speculated).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Can someone please explain what this is doing in Hell. It doesn't currently look Hellish to me.
Your Dead Horses host only directed you here to have it out with people/post diatribes. Are you having it out with people, or discussing general principles? Currently it looks like the latter.
orfeo
Hellhost
[ 11. July 2015, 09:32: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Can someone please explain what this is doing in Hell. It doesn't currently look Hellish to me.
Your Dead Horses host only directed you here to have it out with individuals. Are you having it out with individuals, or discussing general principles? Currently it looks like the latter.
orfeo
Hellhost
I obviously misunderstood the hosting. I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm from the left. What motivates me are communes with lots of weed and free sex. I thought this was obvious.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Left and right really has little meaning. Liberal and conservative has a little more but it's still rather vague. What are you if economically you're fairly socialist but when it comes to morals conservative (the would be me btw)? My motivations are many.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
My local left-wing group usually start off Saturday night robbing a bank, then buy some drugs, then cruise the local villages, terrorizing people, and looking for virgins. Damn, there aren't any.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
[/QB][/QUOTE] I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section. [/QB][/QUOTE]
So, what are you doing here then?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Old-fashioned lefty checking in. Motivation, you ask? Here's a little bit of my motivation, and there's plenty more where it came from:
This:
quote:
Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
This:
quote:
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honours God.
This:
quote:
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people
This:
quote:
Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
This:
quote:
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
This:
quote:
Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
This:
quote:
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts; he has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate; he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty.
This:
quote:
woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
This:
quote:
Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
This:
quote:
The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
This:
quote:
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
And then of course there's a ton of stuff like this:
quote:
How can I make you realize the misery of the poor? How can I make you understand that your wealth comes from their weeping? (Basil of Caesaraea)
The rich are in possession of the goods of the poor, even if they have acquired them honestly or inherited them legally. (John Chrysostom)
The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry man; the coat hanging in your closet belongs to the man who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the man who has no shoes; the money which you put into the bank belongs to the poor. (Basil of Caesaraea)
I haven't provided citations for Bible verses, because of course every Bible-believing Christian will have these texts written on their heart. Non-biblical quotes are from here, but generally available.
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
This lefty is motivated by a desire to see dignity for all people, irrespective of their origins.
The basic necessities of shelter and sustenance come at the top of the list and health and opportunities just behind. These need to be secure provisions too, which are usually achieved through decent jobs or adequate welfare.
I'm not really interested in lining the rich up against a wall and shooting them; they just need to recognise the responsibilities, as well as the rights, that come with economic power in this society.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not really interested in lining the rich up against a wall and shooting them
The stupid, on the other hand, are prime candidates for the wall. Especially people who come and post crap on the internet motivate by pride, envy, wrath, amongst other things
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not really interested in lining the rich up against a wall and shooting them
The stupid, on the other hand, are prime candidates for the wall. Especially people who come and post crap on the internet motivate by pride, envy, wrath, amongst other things
Ignoring the "other things" for a moment, but if one takes away everything motivated by pride, envy and especially wrath doesn't that leave this board empty?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I obviously misunderstood the hosting. I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section.
Coward. No really, you are a coward. Not for wishing to avoid trading insults, but for your posting style on the other boards.
You post in such a manner as to generate ire without ever truly addressing the rejoinders.
It is probably pointless to mention this as you will continue the style down here as well.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not really interested in lining the rich up against a wall and shooting them
The stupid, on the other hand, are prime candidates for the wall. Especially people who come and post crap on the internet motivate by pride, envy, wrath, amongst other things
Ignoring the "other things" for a moment, but if one takes away everything motivated by pride, envy and especially wrath doesn't that leave this board empty?
WTF?! (Including you to, LC) You've no motivation from concern, love, curiosity or pleasure?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is there such a thing as 'the left'? I'm not sure how you are going to subsume everybody from Tony Blair to Mao into one big Gladstone bag, but I'm interested in how this can be demonstrated, (rather than speculated).
Ahhh...the no true pinko fallacy. There is also no such thing as the right. There is only the far right.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
quote:
I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section.
So, what are you doing here then?
Good question. A topic like this is bound to get personal so on reflection I'll leave it, I've said what I've said.
[ 11. July 2015, 16:32: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not sure my point neede underlining, but thank you just the same.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Asking what motivates the left or the right seems to me to be one of those questions that is essentially meaningless and generates more heat than light. Perhaps that's the intent?
Asking what motivates people on the left or the right might be closer to the mark, but then you have to deal with people as individuals and not just assume some monolithic understanding.
I tend to assume that most people on the left, the right and in-between are motivated by what they think will make a better, more just society. I am enough of a Calvinist, though, to expect that even the most noble and well-intentioned of motives will be mixed with self-interest, biases and prejudices, misunderstanding and, of course, ignorance. A wise person questions his or her own motivations for that reason.
To me, the more relevant question is why are so many people, regardless of their position on the political (or theological, or whatever) spectrum, quick to assume that people who occupy a different place on that spectrum are motivated by rejection of all that is good and holy, while those with whom they agree are motivated solely by goodness and light.
[ 11. July 2015, 16:53: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I obviously misunderstood the hosting. I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section.
Coward. No really, you are a coward. Not for wishing to avoid trading insults, but for your posting style on the other boards.
You post in such a manner as to generate ire without ever truly addressing the rejoinders.
It is probably pointless to mention this as you will continue the style down here as well.
The guy is a fucking WUM. He's not here for honest open discussion, but just to needle and provoke, and inflame.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is there such a thing as 'the left'? I'm not sure how you are going to subsume everybody from Tony Blair to Mao into one big Gladstone bag, but I'm interested in how this can be demonstrated, (rather than speculated).
Ahhh...the no true pinko fallacy. There is also no such thing as the right. There is only the far right.
I don't understand what the fallacy is. I'd like someone to describe what 'the left' is, as I can't really see any general description here that would be useful.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I obviously misunderstood the hosting. I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section.
Coward. No really, you are a coward. Not for wishing to avoid trading insults, but for your posting style on the other boards.
You post in such a manner as to generate ire without ever truly addressing the rejoinders.
It is probably pointless to mention this as you will continue the style down here as well.
I don't have the time or the inclination to reply to every single rejoinder that is addressed to me but I do address plenty of them. Please tell me of any rejoinder I've missed that you would particularly like addressed.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not really interested in lining the rich up against a wall and shooting them
The stupid, on the other hand, are prime candidates for the wall. Especially people who come and post crap on the internet motivate by pride, envy, wrath, amongst other things
Ignoring the "other things" for a moment, but if one takes away everything motivated by pride, envy and especially wrath doesn't that leave this board empty?
WTF?! (Including you to, LC) You've no motivation from concern, love, curiosity or pleasure?
I was referring to the Hell board alone.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm from the left. What motivates me are communes with lots of weed and free sex. I thought this was obvious.
That's just life, not left or right politics.
I did a facebook quiz the other day that was this same very bipolar left or right. I came out 97% left, but most of the questions I was nothing like so simple in my answer. OK, this is pop-quiz, but I think it shows that the dichotomy is not that simple.
What motivates the left? Concern for others? A bleeding-heart liberal concern that the state should take care of the poor and unfortunate? A feeling that people abusing others is wrong?
Of late, it has also been that Cameron is a smarmy, privileged, arrogant, deceitful, manipulative piece of shit. Osborne is worse, because blinding incompetence is also added. IDS is all of these, and a loathing, hate-filled bastard as well.
Need I go on? Those who seem to be the leading right-wing politicians, and one would consider the exemplars of right-wing politics, make me want to vomit. So I develop in reaction to them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I was referring to the Hell board alone.
I was referring to SOF in its entirety, but that, IMO, does not exclude Hell. Though I will admit that wrath has been a motivation for many of my OPs down here, that wrath was often born of concern for others. IOW, I became angry at people's treatment of other people.
Not saying that I do not suffer from pride, envy or wrath, just that they are not my sole motivation, even down here. And Hell in general appears to be a mix of leave me be and leave them be.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I don't have the time or the inclination to reply to every single rejoinder that is addressed to me but I do address plenty of them.
Replying to a post is not the same as addressing the comment within.
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Please tell me of any rejoinder I've missed that you would particularly like addressed.
You've been told multiple times on multiple threads. You just dance around it up there, so why would you address anything properly down here?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WTF?! (Including you to, LC) You've no motivation from concern, love, curiosity or pleasure?
Read more carefully. I didn't say "everything," I said "most" actions. Plus there is such a thing as hyperbole!
In all seriousness, though, pride and envy contaminate way more actions than IMHO most people realize.
Or are you just a better person than I?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Or are you just a better person than I?
I hope not, because I am not a good person at all. If I've any saving grace it is that I would like to be.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Don't we all. All of the sane people, anyway. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Which brings us right back to the insane ones who give everybody a bad (bad-der) name...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I obviously misunderstood the hosting. I've really got no interest in trading insults with individuals. If anyone wants to continue this discussion they can start a new thread in the Purgatory section.
Coward. No really, you are a coward. Not for wishing to avoid trading insults, but for your posting style on the other boards.
You post in such a manner as to generate ire without ever truly addressing the rejoinders.
It is probably pointless to mention this as you will continue the style down here as well.
I don't have the time or the inclination to reply to every single rejoinder that is addressed to me but I do address plenty of them. Please tell me of any rejoinder I've missed that you would particularly like addressed.
Adeodatus' excellent list would be a good place for you to start.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Looking at your pathetic little attempt to know exactly what motivates people despite their explanations as to what their real motivations are:
Pride
Funny thing is it's the Right who often quite explicitly see Pride as a virtue. "Have you no pride?" they say as people claim benefits.
envy
...is often the name given to those with little pointing out the injustice of their situation to those with much.
wrath
at injustice is no bad thing. Isn't God meant to be like that as well?
You'll have to do much, much better than that to paint the left as the scum of the earth, chummy.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
envy
...is often the name given to those with little pointing out the injustice of their situation to those with much.
People on the right often refer to the "politics of envy", usually directed at low paid workers on the left complaining about those who earn more than they do. It's the same people in the right who seem to object to working class people like tube drivers and plumbers earning a decent wage.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I'm left wing because I believe that all people have inherent value over and above their ability to economically contribute to society.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
To me, the more relevant question is why are so many people, regardless of their position on the political (or theological, or whatever) spectrum, quick to assume that people who occupy a different place on that spectrum are motivated by rejection of all that is good and holy, while those with whom they agree are motivated solely by goodness and light.
Zing.
And I am so tired of witnessing - more off-Ship than on, it must be said - the mindset that immediately jumps to the conclusion that if a person disagrees with you, they MUST be on the other side of this great big political divide in all things.
It's as if swinging voters don't exist any more in the minds of these people.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I am so tired of witnessing - more off-Ship than on, it must be said - the mindset that immediately jumps to the conclusion that if a person disagrees with you, they MUST be on the other side of this great big political divide in all things.
It's as if swinging voters don't exist any more in the minds of these people.
Weeeeell... actually the idea of there being different paradigms has a fair amount of applicability when it comes to morality and politics. If people subscribe to certain key elements within one of those paradigms, then that is going to shape their views on many political issues.
For example, the primary and core value of moral and political paradigm in which I operate is the well-being of all people. Experience tells me that anyone else who espouses that as their primary and core value (as opposed to it being a "nice-to-have" somewhere down their list of values, or simply one value among many to them) is going to hold near-identical positions to me on a whole host of moral, political, and social topics, and on any issues where we do disagree the discussion will be extremely interesting and productive and highly likely to lead to either or both or us shifting our position slightly.
Jonathan Haidt has done some really nifty research (paper / TED talk) showing that the difference between 'conservatives' and 'liberals' comes down to the fact that liberals hold the moral principle of maximizing the well-being of all people at the core of their political views (Haidt splits it into 2 (and in his later work 3): Minimize harm, maximize fairness, (maximize liberty)... I prefer to roll it into one and just say maximize well-being). Whereas conservatives have a much lengthier list of (potentially competing) values that informs their moral and political views (liberals don't tend to particularly approve of any of their additional values).
In a society where basically everyone is agreed over what the core values are, then everyone is essentially sitting at the same table having a discussion about edge-cases, and it means people's personal opinions are not going to fall very clearly down "party" lines and you're going to get a huge number of swing voters. But when there is widespread disagreement over what the core values actually are, you're going to get increasingly polarized political debate and increasingly entrenched party positions because you get competing paradigms in play. I suggest this largely explains why political parties have overlapped in some eras and been poles-apart in others.
The gay marriage debate perfectly highlighted this current liberal/conservative divide and the underlying difference in moral values. From the point of view of liberal morality (ie maximizing well-being for all) the notion of giving equal rights to a minority group is an axiomatic no-brainer. Whereas the conservative position has been all over the place, because they view maximizing well-being as only one consideration among many, and other core values they held were telling them to take the exact opposite view (the bible, tradition, disgust).
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Asking what motivates the left or the right seems to me to be one of those questions that is essentially meaningless and generates more heat than light.
I 100% disagree. I think it's one of the most important political issues of all.
A lot of people who don't follow politics much tend to assume "well, they're all basically good people right, who just disagree over some complicated stuff that I don't really understand?" This sort of approach wrongly assumes that disagreements between political parties are some sort of arcane intellectual differences over complex issues rather than basic and fundamental differences in values and morals and in particular who is being valued and why.
Particularly, to be blunt about it, right-wing politics in most countries in the Western world is currently dominated by politicians who intentionally serve the interests of a tiny minority of big-business-owners in order to line their own pockets and those of their mates, and who write every single law with an eye to how it can help line the pockets of their business mates. Their business mates in turn supplied numerous lobbyists to make sure their friends do the right thing and given financial donations to the party to help it win. To the maximum extent that they feel they can get away with it, the politicians intentionally tilt the employer/employee power-balance in favor of employers in order to make sure their rich mates can screw-over their employees for maximum profit. The right-wing politicians likewise cut taxes on their rich mates, and cut benefits for the poor, and maximize the environmental destruction their rich business mates are allowed to get away with. Basically this corrupt right-wing political machine intentionally favors the few who are already wealthy to the maximum extent possible and this is their major goal, and they do this by intentionally trampling on the less wealthy minority and the environment to the maximum extent they feel they can get away with. To sell all of this they just trot out the various lies that their well-funded PR departments have come up with about them being 'better' at 'the economy', about them upholding religious values, about growth being better for everyone, etc and if they are ever pushed into a corner then they smear everyone else with the same mud by claiming all politicians are dishonest.
So who people are valuing matters greatly in politics. There's a world of difference between the laws a politician will vote for if they're in it to give more money to their rich mates, compared to if they're in it because they're genuinely concerned about the well-being of everyone.
quote:
I am enough of a Calvinist, though,
I hope you've been lucky enough to pre-draw the lucky number in the cosmic lottery. But I guess you can never be sure.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
For example, the primary and core value of moral and political paradigm in which I operate is the well-being of all people. Experience tells me that anyone else who espouses that as their primary and core value (as opposed to it being a "nice-to-have" somewhere down their list of values, or simply one value among many to them) is going to hold near-identical positions to me on a whole host of moral, political, and social topics, and on any issues where we do disagree the discussion will be extremely interesting and productive and highly likely to lead to either or both or us shifting our position slightly.
But experience tells me that a lot of the time, the difference between "left" and "right" is about how you believe the most well-being can be achieved.
I rather like the final paragraph of the Wikipedia article on left-right politics. I think this guy is onto something:
quote:
Libertarian writer David Boaz argued that terms left and right are used to spin a particular point of view rather than as simple descriptors, with those on the "left" typically emphasizing their support for working people and accusing the right of supporting the interests of the upper class, and those on the "right" usually emphasizing their support for individualism and accusing the Left of supporting collectivism. Boaz asserts that arguments about the way the words should be used often displaces arguments about policy by raising emotional prejudice against a preconceived notion of what the terms mean.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But experience tells me that a lot of the time, the difference between "left" and "right" is about how you believe the most well-being can be achieved.
That certainly does happen. It's particularly aided and abetted by the ongoing PR campaign sponsored by big-business to try to convince people that giving them more money is the best way to make everyone happiest / improve the economy / create growth, so the well-intentioned vote gets divided through deception.
quote:
I think this guy is onto something:
Libertarian writer David Boaz argued
Ah Libertarians... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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that terms left and right are used to spin a particular point of view rather than as simple descriptors,
False in my experience. They are extremely useful terms that help understand and categorize views.
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with those on the "left" typically emphasizing their support for working people and accusing the right of supporting the interests of the upper class,
Obviously.
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and those on the "right" usually emphasizing their support for individualism and accusing the Left of supporting collectivism.
That barely even makes sense, and isn't really at all true. The only example I can at all think of to support this, is various crazies on the right in the US get wound up about what they perceive as "socialism" (which is a bad word to them). But when he says that the right is far "individualism" in a way the left isn't, that's code for "not giving a fuck about other people and being happy for the government to let the poor die in the gutter if it means being able to make more profit and pay less taxes yourself".
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Ah Libertarians...
Ugh. Way to prove the point. This is the whole fucking problem with politics today, that it matters more where an idea comes from than whether the idea has merit.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But experience tells me that a lot of the time, the difference between "left" and "right" is about how you believe the most well-being can be achieved.
That certainly does happen. It's particularly aided and abetted by the ongoing PR campaign sponsored by big-business to try to convince people that giving them more money is the best way to make everyone happiest / improve the economy / create growth, so the well-intentioned vote gets divided through deception.
Without wanting to get back into personal remarks about what motivates lefties/righties I would make this point. Don't be naive to think that big business sponsored PR is just happening on the right of the political spectrum. For example big business is often portrayed as being against government regulation but the reality is it often loves such regulation as those regulations are used to protect it. However how to sell such regulations to the public? Saying that such regulations are designed to be protectionist to certain businesses wouldn't sell well. The right can't be used because the right is supposed to be against government regulation. However the left can be used to sell such regulation as a 'curb on big business' when in reality its meant to help them.
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Ah Libertarians...
Ugh. Way to prove the point. This is the whole fucking problem with politics today, that it matters more where an idea comes from than whether the idea has merit.
Well not exactly, because Libertarians are a special case. Replace "Libertarians" with "IngoB" to understand my attitude...
Let's just say, after years of engaging with a certain type of person, you know exactly how they'll go wrong and in exactly what ways they'll spout complete nonsense. Libertarians are the IngoBs of the political world: They bask in what they perceive to be their own rigorous and perfect logic, which doubtless would make sense to someone who's had a lobotomy and refrains from testing anything they say against the real world.
Just as IngoB's not your normal religious defender, and is instead super-rational in a utterly bizarre and totally demented way, so too libertarians are not part of the normal political spectrum and have the same type of severe brain malfunction as IngoB.
I never discard ideas out of hand based on their source though. And especially within the mainstream political spectrum itself I definitely listen to all sides. I have however, learned from experience, that the general questions to ask whenever the Right suggests something is "how is that going to make rich people even richer? And which group of poor people will it screw over to achieve that?"
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Don't be naive to think that big business sponsored PR is just happening on the right of the political spectrum.
Certainly in the US corruption has reached even to the left end of the political spectrum, and sure it's an order of magnitude less strong at that end than it is on the right end of the spectrum, but it's still significant. However the US is a lot more corrupt than other Western countries in this regard.
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For example big business is often portrayed as being against government regulation but the reality is it often loves such regulation as those regulations are used to protect it.
Sure, we see that today in the various free-trade agreements. For the most part, protectionist regulations went the way of the Dodo about 30 years ago. But they're being reintroduced today under the rubric of "free trade" agreements, that basically boil down to entrenched multinationals telling the governments of the world (via the thoroughly corrupted US officials) what the multinationals would like the laws to be.
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However how to sell such regulations to the public? Saying that such regulations are designed to be protectionist to certain businesses wouldn't sell well. The right can't be used because the right is supposed to be against government regulation. However the left can be used to sell such regulation as a 'curb on big business' when in reality its meant to help them.
No, they get sold as "free trade agreements", which the left pretty consistently opposes and the right pretty consistently endorses. The current Transpacific Partnership Agreement is a pertinent example.
I can't think of a single recent case that matches the process you describe of the left being misused to create fake-regulation. That's just not really a thing that happens. Instead the right says "trade is good!" and signs an agreement they claim is about trade but which conveniently entrenches into law a combination of every multinational corporation's wet dream.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I had a bit of an illumination on the road to - no, not Damascus, Sarf Lunnon - last night. I have, as most of us here have, been interpreting "left" as the sort of people we are, following those Bible teachings, seeking to maximise well-being. I had forgotten Militant, Rank and File, and certain cadres of the London Wildlife Trust at the time when Nature Conservation was renamed and taken over.
For non-UK people, Militant was a hard-left group seeking to influence Labour into more extreme positions. Rank and File was its sister organisation within the National Union of Teachers. The divisions of the Wildlife lot which were problematical were active in the same boroughs as those which, in the NUT, were hotbeds of R&F, and had some of the same personnel.
These groups were driven by I know not what. They may have claimed to be wanting to maximise well-being for all, I suppose, but they were marked by pride, which led them to believe they were absolutely correct in their beliefs, and that those who opposed them knew that they were correct, and were only opposing them for personal gain. Envy - I'm not sure about. They didn't seem to want much for themselves. Wrath - they certainly got wound up into states at demonstrations, and in speeches when opposing those people who disagreed with them - see above. But they also had a deep ingrained deviousness and cunning, honed in meetings held in pubs before the meetings they planned to disrupt.
If Bibliophile has come across that sort of lefty, I can quite understand his interpretation. He would obviously discount all our careful arguments as being evidence for the deviousness of lefty behaviour. It doesn't make him correct, of course.
Fairness - not a helpful word when dealing with the issue of left/right. Each side uses it, each feels its meaning is obvious. To the right, it means that each person has the right to hold on to what is theirs, regardless of how they obtained it, or how much the guy on the street has.
Something else struck me on the Sarf Circular last night, but I can't remember it now!
I'm still on the left.
[ 12. July 2015, 09:22: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I have to add a disclaimer. The Wildlife Trusts as currently constituted do not have anything dubious going on, and the people involved back in the day have moved to other places. Lovely people now.
[ 12. July 2015, 09:31: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I remember some ghastly left-wing groups, ranting, lack of compassion, dogmatic, totally in their heads. So what? Does that become a generalization about 'the left'? Bad logic.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are, and have been, some very nasty groups on the right as well. Anyone come across any nasty groups in the centre? (I'm assuming it's axiomatic that there are nasty and unpleasant individuals in each and every group of people - human nature being what it is)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Extremism tends to be unpleasant when viewed from the outside. Extreme evangelicals/Liberals/ACs in the church are unpleasant, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same, or that their take on faith is automatically wrong. Just because WBC and Don Cuppitt both talk garbage doesn't mean that their generic expressions of faith (evangelical and liberal) are wrong, just that an extremist position tends to be, erm, extreme.
So just because both the left and the right wings of politics have had their more hateful extreme views, doesn't mean that either side is definitively wrong. It does mean that, if you see a party moving to the more extreme end, you should be worried.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There are, and have been, some very nasty groups on the right as well. Anyone come across any nasty groups in the centre? (I'm assuming it's axiomatic that there are nasty and unpleasant individuals in each and every group of people - human nature being what it is)
Rather depends where you place the centre, but there's the Conservative and Unionist Party. And, in fairness, the SNP have some fellow travellers who can be a little caustic.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I remember some ghastly left-wing groups, ranting, lack of compassion, dogmatic, totally in their heads. So what? Does that become a generalization about 'the left'? Bad logic.
All I was saying was that if Bibliophile had only come across that sort of group on the left, that would explain his attitude.
And of course there have been horrendous right wing groups.
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