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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Chess
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Anyone following the 2016 Candidates Tournament?
Who will earn the right to challenge Magnus Carlsen? I reckon Fabiano Caruano after an impressive takedown of Vishy Anand in round 10.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
e2–e4
(Sorry, when I saw a Circus thread about chess, this is what I was expecting ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nf6
3. ...?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am very confused by this thread. When you post a move please specify wheher you are moving black or white. Also please give the full name of the piece.
Thanks
Doublethink
Circus Host
[ 28. March 2016, 00:36: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I belive the moves so far are:
1) White: pawn e2-e4
2) Black: knight g8-f6
If I have mind read correctly ...
(I am assuming this starting board viewed from the white player's perspective, and that the second move was intended to be the black queen's knight: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chess_board_blank.svg )
[ 28. March 2016, 09:04: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
1) White: pawn e2-e4
2) Black: knight g8-f6
3) White: pawn g2-g3
[ 28. March 2016, 09:05: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I think there have been four moves so far:
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
Doublethink's move is still legitimate, so
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3
Standard notation can be found here
although if it makes it clearer we can spell out the moves in full as I have done above.
Current rules seem to be - anyone can contribute the next move! Maybe we should add: "please pick a side, Black or White, and only contribute moves for that side..."
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I responded to LeRoc's opening move in a spirit of whimsy rather than with any particular set of rules in mind! If we actually play out a full game, great, but that wasn't necessarily my (or LeRoc's) intention. As TT suggests, I was posting in standard modern notation, but if writing in expanded notation will help people participate it's very little skin off my nose. I think I've only contributed black moves so far, so I'm happy to continue in that vein too, as we play this variation on Petrov's defense.
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
[ 28. March 2016, 13:05: Message edited by: Adam. ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(LOL, I think I'd prefer to be Black with this opening.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
(Don't like White; pawn g2-g3.)
4. White; Pawn d2-d3. If you intend to fianchetto the white Kings Bishop, that looks logical.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Barnabas62: (Don't like White; pawn g2-g3.)
Neither do I. It seems that in all official matches where White did this, they ended up losing
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It might transpose into some kind of reverse Kings Indian. If White is lucky ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on on f8 - c5.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight on f6 - g4
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
(I don't think you have to play a specific colour but you must do the best for the side whose move you make. In my defence g2-g3 was me not understanding the notation and responding to a different board state. Following along with my travel chess board now.)
[ 04. April 2016, 20:56: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Great minds think alike If anyone has any doubts, Nf6-g4 it is.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Lol, my chess credentials are resurrected !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Doublethink.: Lol, my chess credentials are resurrected !
It may still turn out to be a stupid move I played competition chess in secondary school but that was, erm, a couple of years ago.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside)
(Haven't played this down here before. Any limits on consecutive moves by same player?)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I was afraid you were going to do that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(Haven't played this down here before. Any limits on consecutive moves by same player?)
Pretty sure none of us have, so no limits yet!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3
(No idea about this variation! Beware of too many pawn moves?)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think that so long as you don't do two moves one after the other I we're fine. Playing with yourself is frowned upon in public ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 04. April 2016, 22:35: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
8. White: Rook f1-f2, taking Knight
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
(lots of options for black, here, some leading to very complicated positions)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Nah, I realise now that my move was daft. I always want to do knight-bishop attacks too early, which can be easily defended by moving a pawn forward, leading to a loss in tempo.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Honestly not sure. Rook and Pawn in exchange for bishop and knight and a disrupted kingside for white? That's not necessarily a bad deal, nor does black have to take the rook immediately. There is, potentially, a lot going on.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
A Knight and a Bishop are worth much more to me than a Rook and a pawn.
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
8. White: Rook f1-f2, taking Knight; Black: Bishop from c5 - f2, taking Rook
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
8. White: Rook f1-f2, taking Knight; Black: Bishop from c5 - f2, taking Rook
9. White: Kg1-f2, taking Bishop
[On the usual valuation scale, pawn = 1 point, Bishop or Knight = 3 points, Rook = 5 points. So the exchanges are of about equal value.]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Barnabas62: [On the usual valuation scale, pawn = 1 point, Bishop or Knight = 3 points, Rook = 5 points. So the exchanges are of about equal value.]
I usually take a Rook to be around 4.5. What's more, most of White's pawns are on white spaces, rendering Black's remaining Bishop almost useless. Instead of the Knight-Bishop attack, I feel that Black should have developed its Queen side more.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Hmm, I had a lot of adventures for Black in mind, but I think it's better to play it safe here.
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
8. White: Rook f1-f2, taking Knight; Black: Bishop from c5 - f2, taking Rook
9. White: Kg1-f2, taking Bishop; Black: pawn d7 - d6
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
8. White: Rook f1-f2, taking Knight; Black: Bishop from c5 - f2, taking Rook
9. White: Kg1-f2, taking Bishop; Black: pawn d7 - d6
10. White: Knight b1-c3
Travelling all day tomorrow, happy for someone else to play white moves.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
FYI I am considering this an experimental game thread, working out how to do crowd source circus chess - hopefully we'll end up being able to draw up a guidance post for future games.
DT, Circus Host
(People wanting to participate may find this tool useful: https://www.chess.com/analysis-board-editor )
[ 06. April 2016, 20:07: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
1. White: pawn on e2 - e4; Black: pawn on e7-e5
2. White: Knight on g1 - f3; Black; Knight on g8 - f6
3. White: pawn on g2 - g3; Black: Knight on b8 - c6.
4. White: Pawn d2-d3; Black: Bishop on f8 - c5.
5. White: Bishop f1-g2; Black: Knight f6 - g4
6. White: Castles (Kingside); Black: Castles (Kingside)
7. White: Pawn h2-h3; Black: Knight from g4 - f2, taking pawn.
8. White: Rook f1-f2, taking Knight; Black: Bishop from c5 - f2, taking Rook
9. White: Kg1-f2, taking Bishop; Black: pawn d7 - d6
10. White: Knight b1-c3; Black: Bishop from c8 - e6
(Realised I had set up my board with king and queen reversed, no wonder I was confused !)
[ 06. April 2016, 20:16: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Hosting point? Posts are going to get pretty long if we always post the complete game. I'm wondering if we could do it in 10 move chunks and just link to the previous 10?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think this is the current set-up. Maybe we could share that from time to time?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Unfortunately your link comes up blank for me, I am happy with the suggestion of 10 turn chunks linking back to the past position. But I suggest that the link is back to the previous post.
So post begining move 11 will start as follows:
quote:
Gamestate: Moves 1 to 10
11. Colour; Piece: k1-k3
Later on in the game, if it lasts, it will look like this:
quote:
Gamestate: Moves 1 to 10
Gamestate: Moves 11 to 20
21. Colour; Piece: q1-q3
[ 07. April 2016, 15:50: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Gamestate; moves 1-19
11. White: King f2-g1
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Gamestate; moves 1-10
11. White: King f2-g1; Black: Queen d8-d7
[Edited to change the 19 into a 10; I didn't change anything in my move]
[ 07. April 2016, 17:39: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Whoops, sorry
Gamestate; moves 1-10
11. White: King f2-g1; Black: Queen d8-d7
12. White: King g1-h2
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Gamestate: moves 1-10
11. White: King f2-g1; Black: Queen d8-d7
12. White: King g1-h2; Black: Knight c6 - b4
(I am enjoying following this along on my tiny travel chess set, like souped up postal chess )
[ 07. April 2016, 18:18: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Gamestate: moves 1-10
11. White: King f2-g1; Black: Queen d8-d7
12. White: King g1-h2; Black: Knight c6 - b4
13. White: Bishop c1-e3;
{This isn't an easy position)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Gamestate: moves 1-10
11. White: King f2-g1; Black: Queen d8-d7
12. White: King g1-h2; Black: Knight c6 - b4
13. White: Bishop c1-e3; Black: pawn f7-f5
I feel I need to open things up a bit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Gamestate: moves 1-10
11. White: King f2-g1; Black: Queen d8-d7
12. White: King g1-h2; Black: Knight c6 - b4
13. White: Bishop c1-e3; Black: pawn f7-f5
14. White: Pawn e4xf5
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
DT
I'll be occupied all day Friday. It's my grandson's 8th birthday celebrations and we're doing lots of things.
Could you play White today (Friday)? Adam appears to have disappeared(!) so it's only you, LeRoc and me moving the wood around. Interesting position, now.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK, though anyone is welcome to make a move, providing they don't make two in a row.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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