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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tory tensions on the EU
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
How did the Conservative party become so divided on the European question?
In 1973 it was the Conservatives that brought us into the EEC.
In the 1975 referendum most of the Conservatives were in favour of remaining in the EEC. Party leader Margaret Thatcher campaigned in a jumper with the EEC countries flags on it.
By 1988 Thatcher was less keen on Europe, having more in common with the policies of US President George HW Bush than with the European leaders.
But it was never go it alone. It was about being stronger in an alliance.
Now the Conservatives are split on Europe. But there was campaigning that Britain was strong on its own within the Conservatives in the leave campaign.
Where did this split on Europe come from in what was a pro European party, and especially where did the idea that we could go it alone come from. That would have been unheard of 30 years ago.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
As far as I'm aware, Tory tensions over Europe didn't exist when it was merely a trade deal. The Tories, being pro-business were of course in favour because it facilitated trade and didn't bring into question national sovereignty. The likes of Tony Benn were opposed for precisely the same reason: he was a hard-left socialist and accordingly did not trust the free market.
It all kicked off in the 80s, as I recollect, when Jacques Delors as EC President, made it clear that he saw the EC's role as being integrationist, and then became far more acute with the Maastricht Treaty.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
The alternative was still a deal. Back when they were last in power it meant snuggling up to the US.
Now any talk of deals is non specific. There are no deals on the horizon.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I don't agree. I think just about every Tory would prefer a free trade deal with the EU or any country in it.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I don't agree. I think just about every Tory would prefer a free trade deal with the EU or any country in it.
That's irrelevant if they can't have it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I don't agree. I think just about every Tory would prefer a free trade deal with the EU or any country in it.
That's irrelevant if they can't have it.
This is why they want access to the single market after leaving. It was a British idea anyway.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Tory tensions started when the emphasis changed from a "free trade area" to a "single market". While neither have tariff controls the "single market" sought to level things between the different countries. Amongst other things that required free movement and equalisation of working conditions, neither of which appeal to many Conservatives be they representatives or supporters.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
How did the Conservative party become so divided on the European question?
<snip>
Where did this split on Europe come from in what was a pro European party, and especially where did the idea that we could go it alone come from. That would have been unheard of 30 years ago.
It was an ideological split which was inevitable from a Party, under Thatcher, that acceded to power in 1979 with the slogan of putting the Lion's Heart back into Britain. A Britain which at that time was blighted by low productivity and continual strife between worker and management.
After early unpopularity Thatcher covered herself in glory as a result of the Falklands war, and subsequent electoral success put a massive amount of lead in the Tory pencil culminating with the defeat of scargill's miners.
But then, with a changing EU, the beast and viagra of the Tories eventually came to be it's destroyer. The Lions Heart could not reconcile itself with ever closer European integration.
Time went on however and everyone thought the problem had gone away under Cameron, but oh no, the crack was merely papered over. And now after all this time.....Riii---ppp.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Once upon a time the Tory Party was a mass movement. Remember the joke on Hancock's Half-Hour about not joining the Young Conservatives: "I can't play table tennis and I'm not looking for a wife". Over time normal people stopped joining and left behind a kind of Powellite rump. Hence the farcical scenario in 2001 when, given a choice between Ken Clarke, who had served capably at the Home Office and the Exchequer, and is widely acknowledged to be an all round good bloke, on the one hand and Mr Iain Duncan Smith, a copper bottomed shit who had never held high office they plumped, unerringly for IDS. Now multiply that across six hundred and something constituencies and you get people elected because they are 'sound' on Europe rather than because they are able or have a sound grasp on real life.
Hence, the failure of Mr Cameron, elected in a moment of weakness when enough of them woke up for a moment to notice the aroma of coffee, and hence the terrifying prospect of Mr Boris Johnson becoming leader of our nation at a time when rather more substantial qualifications will be needed than a gift for PR and the ability to quote Latin tags.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
It seems as though it signifies something that this thread has so many fewer posts on it than the Corbyn thread. Does it just indicate the Labour leanings of Shippies or is it that the Conservatives are (astonishingly) less divided at the moment than Labour are?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
It seems as though it signifies something that this thread has so many fewer posts on it than the Corbyn thread. Does it just indicate the Labour leanings of Shippies or is it that the Conservatives are (astonishingly) less divided at the moment than Labour are?
No, it just reflects the prejudices of the press in this country, who magnify one story and diminish the other, ably helped by a bunch of Labour MPs who can most charitably be described as idiotic.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
It seems as though it signifies something that this thread has so many fewer posts on it than the Corbyn thread. Does it just indicate the Labour leanings of Shippies or is it that the Conservatives are (astonishingly) less divided at the moment than Labour are?
No, I think it's just that the Tory divisions are clearer. As has been said upthread, and in other places, the Tory rot really set in with Maastricht, and got worse with every treaty since.
The Tories are all keen on free trade, but are mostly not keen on the social (or socialist?) obligations that the EU wants to impose with it. There are a few (like Ken Clarke, which is why he never got chosen as leader) who remain pro-EU on more or less any terms, but as the EU grew in scope, their numbers reduced.
And then there's the whole sovereignty thing - the average Tory knows instinctively that the English are best, and doesn't want to take instructions from a bunch of Johnny Foreigners. They know that the bulk of Europe is well to their left politically, and so naturally oppose integration as creeping leftism.
This, I think, is basically true of all Tories. The division is between those who think that, but nevertheless think that the EU is the best deal on offer, and so are playing the EU game whilst securing as many derogations and special benefits as they can, and those who think that the EU is a deal too far, and that they'd be better off out.
It's a difference in the degree with which they hold two opinions, rather than a major chasm.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Feels right.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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