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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Perfect surveillance
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
The thread on surveillance (security and freedom) made me ponder how much the crew would tolerate if surveillance were perfectly benign (absolutely no threat). Would it bother you?
When I say benign, I mean that there may be penalties for breaking the law but no more than that. And let's assume that the law is acceptable to the majority.
Again, when I say surveillance, I mean total. Like all the time, everywhere.
We are gradually getting used to street cameras and seem to ignore them for the most part but for the purposes of this discussion let's assume the network is complete with microphones, cameras, chemical sensors etc.
If we were born to it, would we tolerate it? Can we even imagine it?
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
In a sense we have that already, if you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent God.
The difference between what you describe and what we have IMHO is that God has a right to his surveillance, being our maker. Plus, he is incredibly forbearing compared to human beings.
If my fellow human beings were to have even a tenth that much knowledge of me, no, it would be unbearable. And rightly so.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I haven't read whatever thread you refer yo but the idea of strangers watching me take a shower, or have sex, or even just that someone is watching me putter in my house all day, sing to myself, cry about a loss, etc, is creepy.
It's what we do to prisoners and is part of the abusive and intentional depersonalization of prison.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Absolutely not. Even Jesus needed his privacy every now and then (Mark 14:32-36).
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I've posited a form of benign, overall surveillance in fiction, where human lives are watched over by an AI. It's a voluntary arrangement, with mutual benefits.
Where AI and government surveillance diverge is in intent: the AI wants to learn, the government wants to control. And I have much less (read: none whatsoever) faith in governmental intentions than I do my fictional AI.
Of course, where perfect surveillance would be useful is of our banks and politicians. They surely have nothing to hide, so have nothing to fear.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In a sense we have that already, if you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent God.
To quote Msgr. Ronald Knox:
There was a young man who said, "God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad."
REPLY
Dear Sir:
Your astonishment's odd:
I am always about in the Quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by
Yours faithfully,
GOD.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think it was last year that two Dutch journalists did an experiment, where they were constantly filmed for two weeks, and this was streamed life on the internet.
They didn't finish the two weeks. The psychological pressure of constant surveillance was too high.
Interestingly, what they had the most problems with wasn't going to the toilet, but sleeping. I feel the same: sleeping is a very intimate thing, even more so than sex. I think this is one of the reasons why I don't sleep well on a plane.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The theme has been handled in science fiction. One of Robert Heinlein's first short stories was about it. (And in a couple hours my slow brain will oblige with the title...)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: In a sense we have that already, if you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent God.
But the difference is that God does not enforce His laws in this life. I am talking of acceptable majority law now.
quote:
Belle Ringer I haven't read whatever thread you refer to but the idea of strangers watching me take a shower, or have sex, or even just that someone is watching me putter in my house all day, sing to myself, cry about a loss, etc, is creepy.
Would it be, if you had been born in that environment? Perhaps our forbears would have said the same thing about street camcorders.
quote:
Amanda B. Reckondwythe "needed his privacy"
In what sense is privacy needed? I am not saying I am immune to the same feelings, but why?
quote:
Brenda Clough The theme has been handled in science fiction.
I did imagine writing a story with this situation but lack the ability. Would be interested to know when your bell finally rings. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I have a complete non-belief in there being even the remotest possibility that any human beings, yet alone those who happen to have power, could produce a form of surveillance that was anywhere near "perfectly benign (absolutely no threat)", rather than the opposite. So for me it is dangerously foolhardy even to discuss whether the implications of such a delusionary concept would be theoretically anything less than horrifying. The actual result would be. It does not have within itself the capability of meeting the precondition.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I agree, Enoch. But it's a thought-experiment. In practice, of course there could never be any guarantee of benificence if humans were involved.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The concept of privacy for toilets or sex is entirely cultural. It is not at all difficult to find cultures of the past in which expectations were very different. Just go look at the toilets in Roman ruins -- defecation was a group activity there, and the WCs had six or eight holes.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
[[I've shat in several two-holers. It's a little backwoods or on the farm. A certain intimacy among friends.]]
That aside, the threat provokes me to think that problem is the opposite of 'perfect surveillance' and not Orwell's prediction at all. The problem seems to be that people take all these pictures, notes about self and videos and nobody cares to view, or bother with them at all. I think people are often desperate to be noticed and no-one ever clicks a like button.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That aside, the threat provokes me to think that problem is the opposite of 'perfect surveillance' and not Orwell's prediction at all. The problem seems to be that people take all these pictures, notes about self and videos and nobody cares to view, or bother with them at all. I think people are often desperate to be noticed and no-one ever clicks a like button.
Get some puppies ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Seriously, in my line of work (teacher) I have often wished there were constant CCTV in classrooms. It would then be easy to show parents how their little darlings actually behave!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
Enoch So for me it is dangerously foolhardy even to discuss..............
But one of the points I am making is that the world is already heading along that road with only a few weak voices of protest. So what exactly are the "horrifying results"?
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
shadeson: But one of the points I am making is that the world is already heading along that road with only a few weak voices of protest. So what exactly are the "horrifying results"?
I think the way credit ratings work is pretty horrifying.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I travelled last week by plane, train and bus. I saw the sign repeatedly saying things like "see it, report it!". Which is largely stupid, except when it comes to math equations: Flight delayed after passenger becomes suspicious of equation (I thought it was a joke, but it isn't)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
There is presumably a point at which massive surveillance becomes self-defeating, in that the watchers are flooded with so much irrelevant information that it's impossible for them to pick out 'Ricardus called Mr Cameron a bad egg' from all the boring stuff they have recorded him doing.
(There are stories of former East German dissidents getting access to their Stasi files and finding they consist almost entirely of 'Comrade Rikardus put the bins out' and 'Comrade Rikardus bought a new ironing board'.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The amount of effort going into that level of surveillance must have been a significant extra drag on a national economy which already didn't have much going for it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
LeRoc I think the way credit ratings work is pretty horrifying.
I think that reply is a bit flippant
quote:
Ricardus There is presumably a point at which massive surveillance becomes self-defeating, in that the watchers are flooded with so much irrelevant information that it's impossible for them to pick out 'Ricardus called Mr Cameron a bad egg' from all the boring stuff they have recorded him doing
quote:
Enoch The amount of effort going into that level of surveillance must have been a significant extra drag on a national economy
Both these replies ignore the fact that surveillance will be done mostly by large computers. I believe that even at the present time street cams can select irregular movements and flag it up. Not to mention your words being already flagged on Mr Cameron's protection file.
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It must have represented a very high overhead cost historically. Though of course we now have data-mining and keyword recognition techniques, and the like, so high volumes of data can be pre-sorted. Also they can be held and reviewed historically.
(ETA - crosspost with shadeson who makes much the same point)
[ 11. May 2016, 08:47: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
As a slight aside, I think it was mooted some time ago that everyone’s DNA should be recorded at birth thus making detection of the involvement of someone in an event easier to detect. The reaction was one of horror and instant protest. I am not sure I remember what reasons were put forward apart from the obvious use for decoys at crime scenes.
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The DNA issue only becomes evil if you do not have universal health care. In the current wacky US system you can immediately see how it could be abused. They analyze your DNA and see that you have a tendency, inherited from your grandfather, for colon cancer. (This is quite common and doesn't mean that you will get it.) Nevertheless the insurer seizes this as an opportunity to toss you out. After all, sometime in the next 50 years you may well get colon cancer, and it will be expensive to treat you. Suddenly you have no health insurance at all.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
quote:
LeRoc I think the way credit ratings work is pretty horrifying.
I think that reply is a bit flippant
I'm very serious.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
DNA issues include more than that. Suppose you turn up with a predisposition to psychosis or dementia. Wouldn't you just love to have every potential employer googling THAT and declining to put you in a position of responsibility, based on something that might well never come to pass? Or potential romantic partners, or landlords...
There's also the fact that what the scientists so delicately call "non-paternity events" would become public knowledge. And people being what they are, everyone would assume adultery rather than (say) sperm donation, or even rape.
I just don't wanna go there. (because people are assholes...)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The assholery of the human race is, by and large, the reason why we cannot have nice things.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
.......surveillance will be done mostly by large computers. I believe that even at the present time street cams can select irregular movements and flag it up. Not to mention your words being already flagged on Mr Cameron's protection file.
AIUI, the listening technology America used on Bin Laden's compound is also becoming available for civil use. So somebody sat in a pub, or standing on a street corner, discussing the quality of mr C's egginess could also become a prime suspect were some dastardly deed to befall the poor fellow.
But as has been said the sheer bulk of data will itself become an incumberance in situations where it isn't possible to find them that dunnit using, for the main, more traditional methods.
As for constant surveillance, many of us seem to feel reassured by the ever present watching eye. In fact since the age of computer photography many seem all the more ready to make an exhibition of themselves.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
As for constant surveillance, many of us seem to feel reassured by the ever present watching eye.
It was when I saw this poster - from 2002 - and realised it was serious that I decided 1984 had truly arrived in the UK.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
(There are stories of former East German dissidents getting access to their Stasi files and finding they consist almost entirely of 'Comrade Rikardus put the bins out' and 'Comrade Rikardus bought a new ironing board'.)
I am reminded of William Shirer's account of being visited by the FBI in the late 1950s after he had lunch with the daughter of the pre-WW2 American ambassador to Germany. He was asked what they did, and he told them they talked and drank wine, and how carefully they noted it was a French wine.
Shirer was the Berlin CBS correspondent until the fall of France, and the author of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. He was scathing in his autobiography (vol.3, A Native's Return - I recommend all 3 volumes) of Ed Murrow who went along with his McCarthy blacklisting. The redemption and sainthood for Murrow (cf. the 2005 movie Good Night and Good Luck) later shows that people are intimidated and restrained in their conduct by surveillance and spying motivated by not wanting to be targeted themselves. -- I raise this in part to make the point that what we are dealing with now is not brandnew, just updated with technology.
This article seems useful: "the mere existence of a surveillance state breeds fear and conformity and stifles free expression". And goes on to report a "a 20 percent decline in page views on Wikipedia articles related to terrorism, including those that mentioned ‘al Qaeda,’ ‘car bomb’ or ‘Taliban.'" after Snowden told us what the spies were collecting about all us. --But of course only the guilty really have something to hide, right?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Right. Provided we are still living in a society whereby we are innocent until proven guilty.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
no prophet:- people are intimidated and restrained in their conduct by surveillance and spying motivated by not wanting to be targeted themselves.
"There are also numerous psychological studies demonstrating that people who believe they are being watched engage in behavior far more compliant, conformist and submissive than those who believe they are acting without monitoring."
Strange - I thought this was what it was all about when people thought twice about driving dangerously?
Are you saying that the fear of being associated with 'the wrong side' will stifle initiative? If so its a pretty vague assertion.
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
But as has been said the sheer bulk of data will itself become an incumberance in situations where it isn't possible to find them that dunnit using, for the main, more traditional methods.
But it still can be used for post-facto digging and justification of actions against a particular individual, which in fact is what is done at the moment. The last few shootings by the Met have seen the Met's media team (around 70 strong) leak a mix of truths, half-truths and conjecture about the victim to the press prior to any kind of investigation. I expect it is the same elsewhere.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
As for constant surveillance, many of us seem to feel reassured by the ever present watching eye.
It was when I saw this poster - from 2002 - and realised it was serious that I decided 1984 had truly arrived in the UK.
Ha ha! Very good. But it looks more like something out of time, from Scarfolk, maybe.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The assholery of the human race is, by and large, the reason why we cannot have nice things.
Quotesfile!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Right. Provided we are still living in a society whereby we are innocent until proven guilty.
And you think we are???
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The last few shootings by the Met have seen the Met's media team (around 70 strong) leak a mix of truths, half-truths and conjecture about the victim to the press prior to any kind of investigation. I expect it is the same elsewhere.
The New York Metropolitan Opera shoots people?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
I anticipated Brenda Clough's succinct description (post of 11th May) of humanity's anal problems when I said benign surveillance.
There were two underlying reasons for my OP (which produced interesting replies in its own right).
One was related to CS Lewis's ideas quote:
Such a world would be one in which wrong actions were impossible, and in which, therefore, freedom of the will would be void
The other related to Christian theology about the 'life to come'.
I presume most agree with St Paul that "If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied." However, 'the life to come' is in 'The Kingdom of God' where by its nature (i.e. as opposed to the kingdom of humanity) there can be no evil.
Assuming that the freedom to risk pain and be creative was still possible in the "new creation" would we be losing an essential part of our human nature? And is that the underliying reason for our suspicion of any suveillance?
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The theme has been handled in science fiction. One of Robert Heinlein's first short stories was about it. (And in a couple hours my slow brain will oblige with the title...)
You must be thinking of The Murderer . Though I saw that not as a scrutiny by a Big Brother, but as a constant interaction with other people – The psychiatrist's wrist radio buzzes 'This is Lee, Dad. Don't forget about my allowance,' the subject's wife calls 'Where are you now dear?' And music pours from every quarter. So he murders all the machines –telephone, television, stoves that say 'I'm prime roast beef, so baste me'. Beds that rock you to sleep and shake you awake...
Whenever I see people focussed on their smart-phone, I think 'Ray Bradbury saw it all in 1953'.
Yes, I have the book at hand. Time I re-read it.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
No, it was another one. Heinlein was writing during the period of the Cold War, so it was much on his mind. The story I'm thinking of involved a viewer, that would let you see anything, past or present. Naturally everyone pops over to see the Crucifixtion or the Resurrection, but the main traffic rapidly grew to take in sex -- everybody who ever rogered anybody. Either the inventor or somebody else destroys the machine at the end, lest Society Be Destroyed.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Although I have not read it myself, John Brunner's Times Without End (1969) also involves time-travel controlled by the Jesuits (the horror...). Each new pope on his election is allowed one visit to the Crucifixion. It is set in 1988 - but a 1988 which follows a 1588 in which the Spanish Armada won.
I've rather talked myself into getting a copy now...
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, it was another one. Heinlein was writing during the period of the Cold War, so it was much on his mind. The story I'm thinking of involved a viewer, that would let you see anything, past or present. Naturally everyone pops over to see the Crucifixtion or the Resurrection, but the main traffic rapidly grew to take in sex -- everybody who ever rogered anybody. Either the inventor or somebody else destroys the machine at the end, lest Society Be Destroyed.
Perhaps you're thinking of Asimov's The Dead Past. A historian is frustrated by the government in his attempt to gain access to tightly-controlled chronoscope technology in order to vindicate ancient Carthage against charges of child sacrifice. When he defiantly publicizes his discovery that the government has suppressed the fact that it can look back no farther than 120 years along with simple plans enabling anyone to make their own chronoscope, it is revealed that purpose for suppressing the technology had actually been to avert the nightmare scenario of universal surveillance of all by all (since, after all, the past begins just an instant ago.)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:- It was when I saw this poster - from 2002 - and realised it was serious that I decided 1984 had truly arrived in the UK.
To labour the point. I can see that at the time the poster must have caused visions of 1984, but probably now all buses are fitted with CCTV to check on the passengers and no one cries foul.
So what is the thing that is worrying about a growth in benign surveillance? I am interested to see if anyone can spell it out.
Suppose, for instance, that the government decided that the whereabouts of everyone should be known at all times and insisted on transponders being worn - would that cause a riot?
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The New York Metropolitan Opera shoots people?
Yes, but they don't die until they've sung a solo.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The problem with benign surveillance is that there is no guarantee it continues to be so.
Most obvious example of mission creep would be a government using information gained from transport cctv to shut down civil protest.
Secondly, as any sociologist will tell you, everybody in the course of their life engages in actions that can be interpreted as a breacj of civil or criminal law. Mostly, this does not come to the attention of the state. Total surveillance would allow the state to differentially sanction inconvenient people virtually at will.
[ 14. May 2016, 19:35: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:- It was when I saw this poster - from 2002 - and realised it was serious that I decided 1984 had truly arrived in the UK.
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So what is the thing that is worrying about a growth in benign surveillance? I am interested to see if anyone can spell it out.
I already have. There is no such thing. quote:
Suppose, for instance, that the government decided that the whereabouts of everyone should be known at all times and insisted on transponders being worn - would that cause a riot?
Can't comment on the riot part of the question. Perhaps we'd all be too polite. But, sorry to be blunt about this (and I'm not really sorry). If a person were to tell me they can't see anything wrong with this, I'd regard that as unequivocal evidence that they were a moral defective.
I don't see any ethical wriggle room on this, or anything to discuss.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
By Enoch
I don't see any ethical wriggle room on this, or anything to discuss
The wriggle room is that many reasonably moral people would object to the removal of CCTV in a lot of situations.
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
quote:
By Enoch
I don't see any ethical wriggle room on this, or anything to discuss
The wriggle room is that many reasonably moral people would object to the removal of CCTV in a lot of situations.
But that wasn't the point in question; rather, transponders that let the authorities know everybody's location at all times.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Enoch, there being zero expectation of privacy in public, on what grounds are surveillance cameras immoral?
The horror of the telescreen lies not in state surveillance, but in the routine intrusion of the state into the home.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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