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Source: (consider it) Thread: Institutional sexism in corporate and political culture
Gwai
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Note: I'd like to start this thread with the assumption that we are all somewhat sexist because of the cultures we have been brought up in. Please take that as a given for the purpose of this thread.

1) We always hear that individualism and aggression are male and cooperation and teamwork are female. Certainly that is a violent simplification, but there may be something to it if you take people in general and not individuals. (Such assumptions are also causes of sexism in themselves, of course.)

2) Corporate culture and political discourse focuses on the MeMeMe. Often the loudest man wins just because he is the loudest. (Anyone ever played Pit?)

3) We have all moved so far to point 2 that Trump, Corbyn, Sanders, and Nigel Farage all seem to style themselves as not part of the system and outsiders in various ways.

4) In fact, working with a group is now being branded manipulative, and listening is now called being fickle. Take Hillary Clinton for instance. She's certainly not a perfect candidate, but the main accusations against her feel like they're attacking her for not fitting in well enough. (I'd really like this to not be about whether Hillary is corrupt. I welcome other examples.)

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

4) In fact, working with a group is now being branded manipulative, and listening is now called being fickle. Take Hillary Clinton for instance.

For the other reasons you mention I think Hillary Clinton is a very bad example to bring into this debate; it is possible to believe in leftist politics, believe that there is too much of the establishment about current politicians, believe that both men and women can make good leaders and believe in listening and still not think that Hillary Clinton as a good representation of ones values.

Also wrt point 3; there are plenty of people who would think of Sturgeon as also a good example of this (UK politics being largely Westminster centric) and a competent leader to boot.

[ 26. July 2016, 08:39: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:


1) We always hear that individualism and aggression are male and cooperation and teamwork are female. Certainly that is a violent simplification, but there may be something to it if you take people in general and not individuals. (Such assumptions are also causes of sexism in themselves, of course.)


I applaud this piece by Stephen Frost for recognising that introverts can be just as much of an out-group as women in modern corporate culture. They suffer from the assumption that aggressive self-promotion is the only or best manifestation of confidence.

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Hiro's Leap

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I'm not convinced that corporate culture is becoming more individualistic and aggressive - not compared to the eras of Mad Men or Gordon Gecko; nor the oil tycoons, railway barons and the British East India Company.

As far as sexism and politics goes, it's been wonderful to see how unimportant gender has been in discussions on Theresa May. IMO it's one of the few bright spots post-Brexit.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
I'm not convinced that corporate culture is becoming more individualistic and aggressive - not compared to the eras of Mad Men or Gordon Gecko; nor the oil tycoons, railway barons and the British East India Company.

I'm not sure the claim is that it's worse than it's ever been, only that it's moving in the wrong direction. Both "It's going south" and "it's still not as bad as the robber baron era" can be true.

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Gramps49
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From what I gather with news reports about Fox News, Mad Men is still alive and well in certain corporations. I am wondering if its conservative bent allowed for the sexism that permeated the corps from the top down.
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Hilda of Whitby
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
From what I gather with news reports about Fox News, Mad Men is still alive and well in certain corporations. I am wondering if its conservative bent allowed for the sexism that permeated the corps from the top down.

I think Fox Noise is vile. But sexism is not just limited to the right wing. Let's not forget Stokley Carmichael's awful remark: "The position of women in the SNCC (Student Non-Violent Cooordinating Committee) is prone." He made that remark in 1964. Some things have gotten better, but I have also read many reports by women active in leftist organizations past and present who have said that sexism is alive and well there.

I'm a leftist myself but I know that sexism shows up all over the political spectrum. I don't think you can say it is solely a conservative world view, although it might well be more openly prevalent in conservative organizations.

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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."

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cliffdweller
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my two cents:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

1) We always hear that individualism and aggression are male and cooperation and teamwork are female. Certainly that is a violent simplification, but there may be something to it if you take people in general and not individuals. (Such assumptions are also causes of sexism in themselves, of course.)

As you said, a "violent simplification" (good term-- I'll borrow that) because, of course, there are significant exceptions on both sides. But I think observation/ experience shows us that, in the broad strokes, the generalization holds. The question, of course, is to what degree are those broadly gender-based distinctions based on innate differences and to what degree they're based on socialization/ expectations? I think it's clear we reward different behaviors among girls than we do with boys, along these very cooperative/competitive lines. That's changing with title 9 and the greater involvement of girls in competitive sports, but is still very much a factor. It would appear that both biology and environment are involved to some degree in the distinctions, but not in a definitive way.


quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

2) Corporate culture and political discourse focuses on the MeMeMe. Often the loudest man wins just because he is the loudest. (Anyone ever played Pit?)

Definitely true in the US at least. "Mansplaining" would be just one example. Most of our institutions, both public and private, seem to be based on competition rather than cooperation. I think this is more true of the US than most other cultures. Just contrasting US and Canada-- with similar histories, similar cultures, similar populations-- yet strikingly different on the cooperation/ competition scale which impacts all sorts of aspects of their culture-- things like gun control, health care, etc., where Americans emphasize "individual rights" over the Canadian value of "community benefit".


quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
3) We have all moved so far to point 2 that Trump, Corbyn, Sanders, and Nigel Farage all seem to style themselves as not part of the system and outsiders in various ways.

4) In fact, working with a group is now being branded manipulative, and listening is now called being fickle. Take Hillary Clinton for instance. She's certainly not a perfect candidate, but the main accusations against her feel like they're attacking her for not fitting in well enough. (I'd really like this to not be about whether Hillary is corrupt. I welcome other examples.)

Not sure I'd agree with all your examples here, although my own political blinders may be interfering.

I would say Sanders is more of a counter-example of cooperation. Certainly his policies-- moving toward a more socialist system-- reflect that Canadian ideal of "community good" over American individualism. And for the most part the way he's pursued his career over the last several decades (working in a bipartisan way to achieve cooperation) and the way he's handled this election seem to reflect cooperation more than competition. The most striking example would be this week when, despite evidence of "rigging" the primary against him, he set aside personal ambition to give an enthusiastic and unqualified endorsement of Hillary.

I would agree that the accusations of Clinton are unfair, and reflect the precise sexism you're identifying. Clinton, too, is a counter-example, being more competitive than our society usually allows for a woman. All the criticisms of her being "shrill" or "loud" or "combative" are things that are turned into accolades when directed toward a male candidate (another example of an "irregular verb"). And yet, like Sanders, her policies and past political experience emphasize "corporate good"/cooperation more than "individual rights"?competition. Not as far to the left as Sanders (or me) but certainly in that direction. So she is managing an uncomfortable but perhaps admirable compromise between competition and cooperation-- and being slapped down for it.

Trump, otoh, is the epitome-- almost a gross caricature-- of alpha-male aggressive competitor. The fact that he has garnered so much support is worrisome evidence of a possible backlash against a more cooperative tone to our social progress, again, at least in the US.

[ 27. July 2016, 15:09: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Penny S
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I had a bit of an epiphany about men and cooperation when watching a film about the making of a telescope and the fitting of it into a club-built observatory by Croydon Astonomical Society. I have seen similar stuff since. Not a trace of wannabe alphas, and team spirit very evident. This, I thought, is men being good at what men are good at.
Rather like the bunch who appeared when my Hillman Imp went inadvertently off road round the lanes, got me out, and restored it to the tarmac before vanishing back to wherever they came from.
I think the wannabes have totally misunderstood what being human is about - and the person who developed the idea of alphas doesn't even like it now with the regard to animals.

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Gwai
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Sorry to start this and then not post. Work has gone nuts. Some very interesting things said here, and I have wanted to answer for days. Have to step off the ship for 48 hours or so more.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Penny S
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I did once have an experience which might have been identified as a classic corporate institutional sexism case, with features that matched people's descriptions of it.
I was working through various Earth Sciences courses with the OU, and, despite that being a classically male environment, had met nothing of the sort through the years, until I was at summer school the year I was doing the course which covered oil deposits.
I, the only woman, was put in a group with a number of six foot tall oil men - not rig workers, more thinkers than heavers about of heavy gear. We gazed at a long strip of seismic survey data, looking for the evidence of oil. "Is that a reflector?" I asked, bowing to their probably greater experience of seeing darker flat marks among the wiggly lines. Answer came there none. "That one?" I pointed it out. Ignored again. Then, a short while later, one of them identified the same indication, and his suggestion was picked up, and was indeed evidence of oil.
After thinking about the situation a bit more, I came to the conclusion that in this case it was not exactly sexism. It was people talking to other people the same height, and not noticing someone only 5 foot 6. (What they would do in a normal mix of males, I don't know. I'm taller than the lower end of male height.)

[ 29. July 2016, 16:04: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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cliffdweller
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As a 5'0" woman I'm infuriated on your behalf either way

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Penny S
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What infuriated me wasn't so much them - it was an interesting thing to observe - as the reaction of the tutor I pointed it out to. Someone I'd known for a while, so it wasn't quite like going up the chain to make sure that groups were more diverse, which is what I wanted. (No solitary women, more height variation.) I was quite light-hearted about my comment, but he made a joke of it and did nothing. Now that was the sexism.
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cliffdweller
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Agh [brick wall]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gwai
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I hope title IX changes something re our expectations of girls in competitiveness etc. but I'm not holding my breath. Even when girls are allowed to compete, everyone knows boys sports matter more. I've seen towns empty for boys football games. Needless to say when the girls volleyball team (the match to the football team under title IX) did well, the town was not but mildly interested.

I'm not saying Sanders doesn't cooperate. He is certainly pitching in for Clinton now. But he ran as the outsider socialist who wasn't just like everyone else. He stood alone.

Good point re Clinton and competitive. I was rather persuaded by an article I read about Hillary as a listener, which I recommend to anyone who hasn't read it. Certainly it's not how she's thought of though. In fact, when I was trying to find the article just now and googled "clinton secret skill listening" I got articles about Bill's "superpower" and how you can have it too. If Hillary really is the person described in that article, she switches positions sometimes because she believes its what her constituents want--a good thing. Her listening tour may have been ridiculed--I remember that--and I don't know that the Republicans will be willing to build coalitions with her. But I'll be glad to have a president who will try. In fact, if that article is right, I would say Hillary is being denied those traits of cooperative listener because she is competitive. She's lost her woman card or something.

Either way, part of what gets me is how one can do. If Penny had said something loudly enough to be noticed as a short woman, they would probably have thought her pushy. In so many situations to make yourself heard is to be a shrill bitch. And yet I'm not willing to live in a world where my daughter will be not heard. So I guess be a shrill bitch?

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Brenda Clough
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Title IX isn't about audiences. It's about money. Schools have to support girls's sports even if nobody is in the stands. And that makes girl athletes valuable, more valuable than boys.
My daughter was captain of her high school crew team. (My God, what a bunch of terrifying Amazons they were.) There were athletic scholarships from colleges all over, because colleges needed female athletes to balance all those popular male football and basketball teams. I don't think anyone in her squad had to pay full freight for college; my daughter got a four-year ride at Stanford.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Title IX isn't about audiences. It's about money. Schools have to support girls's sports even if nobody is in the stands. And that makes girl athletes valuable, more valuable than boys.
My daughter was captain of her high school crew team. (My God, what a bunch of terrifying Amazons they were.) There were athletic scholarships from colleges all over, because colleges needed female athletes to balance all those popular male football and basketball teams. I don't think anyone in her squad had to pay full freight for college; my daughter got a four-year ride at Stanford.

Yes, it's complex. Title IX has certainly been a boon for women athletes. Most young girls today participate in some sort of competitive team sport, whereas it was unheard of back in my pre-title IX school days. And for those who excel that can bring financial benefits in the form of scholarships.

But it hasn't brought the wider benefits we'd like to see-- greater acceptance of female competitiveness and a more balanced approach to gender roles off the athletic field. Social change is always the harder nut (no pun intended) to crack.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Penny S
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5ft6 isn't short - it's average! And my voice is always well projected.
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