|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Do this in remembrance of me.
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
So here I am, all liberal and postmodern and predictably I love strongly formal Anglican cathedral services (St. Paul's, OH! Leicester too) but I'd move to Lambeth to camp at the emerged Oasis. I MUCH prefer my local Anglican services with communion. I feel freer than ever just to enjoy it with gratitude, with uncritical goodwill, a sense of humility. I struggled so much when I started in 2005 once I'd overcome my writhing hostility to what I felt was God pushing me to go to church whilst paradoxically wanting His hand on my shoulder.
Struggle upon struggle:
Then I submitted and felt like a child among giants in large Leamington, Northampton and Leicester evangelical Anglican congregations. I wept in the hymns. First love? That cooled comfortably over five years. In communion I was battered by shame and guilt and intrusive thinking. That has mercifully cooled. With acceptance. Mine. With my being fully cognitive about it with God. Even recently a level has been obtained that wasn't before: when I'm at my most self-loathed, feeling most ashamed, intruded upon by memory, self-disgusted, depraved I open the door and invite Jesus in to dine on that with me.
The giants have become pygmies.
I've been led, fed in this by the postmodern emergence. Above all Rob Bell and Brian McLaren. So I've been purged of all magical thinking. All pre and post Christ claims beyond the first two circles. Jesus has become FULLY human for me, THE man of His time, of all time, the son of man, Son of God, every name.
So less is MORE for me. Is gain. The mystery of the God we have ONLY known in and around Jesus hovering over at least 200,000 years of sapience and 2,000 years of Abrahamic myth is hugely intriguing.
And again, just this year, I've crossed another Rubicon. Endlessness. In time and space. God has NEVER changed. Has ALWAYS created. Has ALWAYS incarnated. That still makes my head reel with the 'heterodoxy' of it. The cognitive dissonance. That HAS to be true.
If the universe is stranger than we can possibly imagine, which it is, God incarnate is more so.
So, I deconstruct the life, DEATH and resurrection of Christ. The death above all. NO atonement theory works for me any more (all do in part). Including Jesus'. For there can be NO question that He IGNORANTLY, fully humanly, believed He had to die for our salvation. This is a Western view I realise and I love the Eastern view, but the Eastern view ISN'T orthodox! To me. Jesus went to His DEATH. His blood was cruelly spilled. By His submission to the Spirit of God hovering over, in the scriptures.
And so ... and yet, on a Sunday morning, the Amish plain bread and no butter pudding ... of Communion, of the Eucharist seems over-egged around with ... a Jesus Dean death cult. With self abnegating, writhing worm in the sun's righteous wrath, grovelling hymns in which we paradoxically offer The Lord our ALL and go out to TRANSFORM THE WORLD!
Sigh. I struggle EVERY time to make the froth work. Even in my early Sovereign God days I was horrified at the damnationism of ALL of the evangelical Anglicans I knew epitomized by a bitter, bitter few and under the surface of ALL. That was initially how the giants became pygmies. With the danger of MY lonely relatively 'elevated' stature.
I suppose it's that that underpins Anglican services, even when it's NEVER said. It's sung.
Jesus' life and DEATH and resurrection are the pivot for this species. Are the sure and certain promise that ALL will be well for ALL. That in ways we cannot possible imagine ALL will be redeemed. All of our nasty, brutish and short lives. All the feckless, innocent guilt, shame, weakness, ignorance, vulnerability, suffering.
BUT, since Sunday, I've been asking Jesus how He wants me to remember Him. Remember His death. Have I turned the wine in to water? Just writing that makes me tear up.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I do often wonder whether we're getting things the wrong way around and we should be remembering every time we eat, not putting on a special ritual for the purpose.
That said, in my weakness I need the forms of liturgy to guide my pattern. I'm not sure I'm strong enough to mix the sacred and the profane.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif) scratch a liberal eh? I'm thinking of how to say 'grace' tonight. Said once last week for the first time in a lonnng time. Need some practice in generous orthodoxy.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Martin60, I do not know if what I'm going to say is helpful.
The Greek word from which Eucharist drives means 'thanksgiving'. We do not need to understand. We don't have to screw our hearts into the right shape or to agonise about these things. All we are being asked to do is to receive and be thankful. Receive with you hands metaphorically open. Be prepared to receive what he gives you. It doesn't depend on us.
And as for atonement theories, I don't think I've met one which is actually wrong, but they are all inadequate. What happened, happened. It is not constrained by our theories.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
Thank you for that post, Martin. It resonates.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
MOST helpful, thank you Enoch. And cliffdweller. As ever. And RATS, didn't say grace. Not out of reticence. Out of distraction in the tumbling stream. Trying to convince the wife that my pasta, tomato and garlic bake topped with goat cheese was not a biohazard. Worth a taste to find out. She liked it. There IS a God! And enough for tomorrow night.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I do often wonder whether we're getting things the wrong way around and we should be remembering every time we eat, not putting on a special ritual for the purpose.
That said, in my weakness I need the forms of liturgy to guide my pattern. I'm not sure I'm strong enough to mix the sacred and the profane.
I'm reminded of Percy Dearmer's words:
All our meals and all our living
Make us sacraments of thee,
That by caring, helping, giving,
We may true disciples be.
Alleluia! Alleluia!
We will serve thee faithfully.
But yes, I agree that we need the ritual—not because of problems mixing the sacred and the profane, but to help us see and remember that all is sacred.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The Greek word from which Eucharist drives means 'thanksgiving'. We do not need to understand. We don't have to screw our hearts into the right shape or to agonise about these things. All we are being asked to do is to receive and be thankful. Receive with you hands metaphorically open. Be prepared to receive what he gives you. It doesn't depend on us.
For me, it helps to remember too that the Greek word we translate as "remembrance" has a richer meaning—to remember in such a way as to make a present reality. When we, by eating bread and drinking wine, "proclaim his death until he comes again" (and the coming again part involves resurrection), we aren't just remembering in the English language sense, we are making the paschal event of death and resurrection a present reality we participate in.
Meanwhile, a key for me has always been the end of the Emmaus story—their eyes were open and they recognized who he was when he broke the bread.
FWIW.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
For me, it helps to remember too that the Greek word we translate as "remembrance" has a richer meaning—to remember in such a way as to make a present reality. When we, by eating bread and drinking wine, "proclaim his death until he comes again" (and the coming again part involves resurrection), we aren't just remembering in the English language sense, we are making the paschal event of death and resurrection a present reality we participate in.
Meanwhile, a key for me has always been the end of the Emmaus story—their eyes were open and they recognized who he was when he broke the bread.
FWIW.
For me, that all gets a
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
For me, it helps to remember too that the Greek word we translate as "remembrance" has a richer meaning—to remember in such a way as to make a present reality. When we, by eating bread and drinking wine, "proclaim his death until he comes again" (and the coming again part involves resurrection), we aren't just remembering in the English language sense, we are making the paschal event of death and resurrection a present reality we participate in.
Meanwhile, a key for me has always been the end of the Emmaus story—their eyes were open and they recognized who he was when he broke the bread.
FWIW.
For me, that all gets a
Does anyone have a reference to the Greek word and its meaning?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Does anyone have a reference to the Greek word and its meaning?
Strong's says it is αναμνεσισ: Anamnesis
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Does anyone have a reference to the Greek word and its meaning?
Here you are.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Nobody corrected you there Moo!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I like the New Living Translation of Luke 22:19 ... Do this to remember me.
Simple.
The only gospel to mention commemorating Jesus with UNLEAVENED bread and wine. John doesn't even mention the 'sacrament' of course.
So I'm MORE than happy, privileged to do it in a church service, I just wish the services were either more minimal in the absence of being more inclusive, creative, bigger minded, not underpinned by damnationism and God's thirst for blood.
Ah well. It's the aging, shrinking shoal in which I must be grateful to swim.
For me the simplicity of Christ is that He is living proof that all will be well and I can therefore live in that light.
Happy to commemorate that morning, noon and night.
It seems my fear of not honouring His death enough is assuaged, despite the fact that I NEVER can, just like my necessarily pious peers.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
Thanks, mr cheesy and Moo. I should have specifically mentioned the word anamnesis itself. In addition to what others have said, I have also heard it translated as "reactualization."
Certainly as some say in the thread to which Moo linked, Jesus's Jewish contemporaries would have easily recognized the idea of remembering in a way to that allowed current participation in a past event (with future implications), as that idea is at the heart of Sabbath, Passover and various sacrifices, such as the sacrifice of first fruits with the ritual recitation "A wandering Aramean was my father...."
Philosophy is far from being an area of expertise for me, but my understanding is that Plato and other Greek philosophers used anamnesis to describe the learning process of re-awakening or rediscovering knowledge known before birth (as from a past life or from a divine source) but forgotten. Maybe someone else knows more on this (or can correct me if I'm getting it wrong).
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
What a great OP sparking great responses. I'd do the "I'm not worthy" smilie, but I'm worried about how that might impact upon Martin.
It's the theology in the grime of life that is so damn attractive.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
simontoad, do you honestly think that my bloated ego could go supernova?
And aye, NOTHING works, that's how it works.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
For me, it helps to remember too that the Greek word we translate as "remembrance" has a richer meaning—to remember in such a way as to make a present reality. When we, by eating bread and drinking wine, "proclaim his death until he comes again" (and the coming again part involves resurrection), we aren't just remembering in the English language sense, we are making the paschal event of death and resurrection a present reality we participate in.
In both the Catholic and Orthodox traditions the Eucharist is seen as a re-presentation of the sacrifice Christ made on the cross. Not that it happens again, but that its eternal value is brought into the present. What Nick says here is perfectly compatible with that view. Although various definitions of the "Real Presence" exist in different churches, I see an understanding of proclaiming His presence until He comes again to be a sufficient understanding that could potentially unite all people who participate in the Eucharist. Some churches or individuals who use their definitions of the Eucharist in a divisive way will disagree with me, but we should stop offending Christ by our divisions.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Hmmmm. Doesn't exactly unconditionally reach out does it?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
A number of times Jesus - during a meal, not apparently before the start - took bread gave thanks.
At the last supper did he really do anything different? "This is my body and blood" can't have been a claim at that moment to refer to the still intact human flesh body and the blood still healthy circulating in arteries. Something else that these are a metaphor for, something broader.
Maybe being aware of God in all things, not just for physical food, and not just for a crumb of non-nutritious food in a ritualized event open only to those with the transportation and health to get to the right place and living in a community where that specific ritual is allowed.
Something bigger and more universally accessible than that.
Which can be mirrored in a meal, or in a weekly-or-monthly ritual, but not limited to those.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A number of times Jesus - during a meal, not apparently before the start - took bread gave thanks.
At the last supper did he really do anything different?...
I think the answer is yes. This was not an ordinary meal. Jesus made it clear that he wanted to eat the Passover with his disciples. They knew it was significant, and not just because it was the last one he ate with them.
I can recognise the 'cuddly' appeal of the idea that this was 'any meal ' and that therefore all meals are significant. They are - or can be - but the Last Supper then and Holy Communion/The Mass/The Holy Liturgy/The Eucharist/The Lord's Supper/The Breaking of Bread Service (depending on which term your ecclesial household normally use) are both different.
[ 30. June 2016, 21:10: Message edited by: Enoch ]
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A number of times Jesus - during a meal, not apparently before the start - took bread gave thanks.
At the last supper did he really do anything different?...
I think the answer is yes. This was not an ordinary meal. Jesus made it clear that he wanted to eat the Passover with his disciples. They knew it was significant, and not just because it was the last one he ate with them.
And the impact of His words about His body and blood were about to get as real as it gets.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A number of times Jesus - during a meal, not apparently before the start - took bread gave thanks.
At the last supper did he really do anything different? "This is my body and blood" can't have been a claim at that moment to refer to the still intact human flesh body and the blood still healthy circulating in arteries.
Being an observant Jew, Jesus presumably never ate or drank without saying the appropriate blessings.
But as Enoch and Martin say, yes, this time was different because of what else he said and because of what followed. Sure, he was standing before them still intact, but he clearly linked the bread and wine to his body that would be broken and his blood that would be shed on the cross later that day. (In Jewish reckoning, the day goes from sundown to sundown, so the Last Supper and the crucifixion happened the same day.) On top of that he linked the bread and cup, and his body and blood to the Passover and to a "new covenant," and he instructed his disciples to eat the bread and drink the cup as his memorial.
Yes, this meal can help us see the sacredness of all meals. But I agree that it is different.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
While there is no doubt at the Last Supper was unleavened bread the Gospels and even Paul in his recounting Lord's Supper used the term for common bread. To me, that means you can use unleavened or leavened bread, depending on what you have. Heck, you can even use tortillas, though I would prefer flour tortillas.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
|
Posted
If you are in a bread-free culture you can use whatever is the staple food. I have celebrated using sweet potato (though not in my current location, where that would be pretty exotic)!
--------------------
"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
[Tangent]
Perhaps Judas had Celiac/Coeliac disease. The bread caused an autoimmune intestinal crisis, and in one of the versions, his guts spilled on to the ground. Mad he was at Jesus for making him so sick with gluten.
If you have Celiac, so a family member tells me, that generally taking communion is always skipped, even if gluten free hosts are offered. If and only if in a plastic wrap, and unwrapped by the communicant provides enough peace of mind. All it takes is a crumb of wheat, either in the hand or in the cup.
[/Tangent]
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I do often wonder whether we're getting things the wrong way around and we should be remembering every time we eat, not putting on a special ritual for the purpose.
That said, in my weakness I need the forms of liturgy to guide my pattern. I'm not sure I'm strong enough to mix the sacred and the profane.
I'm reminded of Percy Dearmer's words:
All our meals and all our living
Make us sacraments of thee,
That by caring, helping, giving,
We may true disciples be.
Alleluia! Alleluia!
We will serve thee faithfully.
But yes, I agree that we need the ritual—not because of problems mixing the sacred and the profane, but to help us see and remember that all is sacred.
This is exactly what The Salvation Army believes and is why we do not celebrate the ritual sacraments.
My life must be Christ's broken bread,
My love his outpoured wine;
a cup o'erfilled, a table spread
beneath his name and sign,
That other souls, refreshed and fed,
May share his life through mine.
This is what we would say to the Church:
A STATEMENT ON HOLY COMMUNION
After full and careful consideration of The Salvation Army's understanding of, and approach to, the sacrament of Holy Communion, the International Spiritual Life Commission sets out the following points:
1.God's grace is freely and readily accessible to all people at all times and in all places.
2.No particular outward observance is necessary to inward grace.
3.The Salvation Army believes that unity of the Spirit exists within diversity and rejoices in the freedom of the Spirit in expressions of worship.
4.When Salvationists attend other Christian gatherings in which a form of Holy Communion is included, they may partake if they choose to do so and if the host Church allows.
5.Christ is the one true Sacrament, and sacramental living - Christ living in us and through us- is at the heart of Christian holiness and discipleship.
6.Throughout its history The Salvation Army has kept Christ's atoning sacrifice at the centre of its corporate worship.
7.The Salvation Army rejoices in its freedom to celebrate Christ's real presence at all meals and in all meetings, and in its opportunity to explore in life together the significance of the simple meals shared by Jesus and his friends and by the first Christians.
8.Salvationists are encouraged to use the love feast and develop creative means of hallowing meals in home and corps with remembrance of the Lord's sacrificial love.
9.The Salvation Army encourages the development of resources for fellowship meals, which will vary according to culture, without ritualizing particular words or actions.
10.In accordance with normal Salvation Army practice, such remembrances and celebrations, where observed, will not become established rituals, nor will frequency be prescribed.
Does this help?
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[Tangent]
If you have Celiac, so a family member tells me, that generally taking communion is always skipped, even if gluten free hosts are offered. If and only if in a plastic wrap, and unwrapped by the communicant provides enough peace of mind. All it takes is a crumb of wheat, either in the hand or in the cup.
[/Tangent]
We have quite a few people in the congregation with varying levels of gluten intolerance, and with a couple of them the problem is very severe. The protocol is a separate paten for the gluten free wafers, which are taken out of their plastic wrap by those preparing the elements in the vestry beforehand, and placed on the paten without touching the wafer. That paten remains on the altar after consecration while the bread is being distributed. When the next in line to receive is one of those needing gluten free, the priest is given that paten and presents it without touching the wafer. Just as pure and much less tacky than handing the plastic-wrapped Host, this practice was developed in consultation with those who need it.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Apologies for double post. Could a kind Host (is there any other variety? And no pun intended with Host) please delete one.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Many thanks
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
