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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is power (or its misuse) the essence of sin?
Eutychus
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Over on the Discrimination thread in Dead Horses, I mused as follows:
quote:
I have been wondering, partly as a result of this thread, whether the essence of sin is not actually power (or wrongful use thereof).
That's sparked a bit of debate which I thought could be exported back here.

I'm still quite taken with this idea, although I'm not convinced it applies evenly across all forms of sin.

What do Purg denizens think?

[fixed link]

[ 13. January 2016, 21:50: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Martin60
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You KNOW what I think.

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Raptor Eye
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The link seemed to take me to the anthem thread rather than dead horses....?

I do think that power and status, desire for it and misuse of it, are certainly motivators for sin, but its essence is deception. We are deceived into embracing the temptation to put ourselves in first place rather than to place God first and all humanity second.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The link seemed to take me to the anthem thread rather than dead horses....?

Thanks, I've made the most of the infinite editing time I enjoy as Purgatory host to correct it.

Hopefully that is neither a misuse of power nor a sin...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You KNOW what I think.

No I don't.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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lilBuddha
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Power merely exposes the flaws already within. Unfortunately, very few are free of flaws.

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Sioni Sais
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I've said this before but I sincerely believe the essence of sin to be self-deception. Once you can convince yourself that evil is good, then it is a doddle to deceive others similarly.

If one is in a position of power then I suppose the effect is magnified.

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cliffdweller
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I do tend to think power is at the heart of sin. But it's probably the lust for power, rather than power itself. Power ("privilege") is something some of us are born with, others less. But what we do with that power-- and even more what we do to keep/hold/steal power-- does seem to me to be closely connected to sin in all it's variations. It also seems to be key to the temptations of Jesus. Perhaps that's why so much of Jesus' teachings seem to focus on elevating the powerless.

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simontoad
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No, I don't think power is the essence of sin. The desire for power is perhaps sinful, as is its misuse. Could both be more clearly seen as symptoms of greed? Perhaps I'm unduly limiting power.

I can see greed as not only sinful but as a path to other sinful conduct.

Another path, it seems to me, is addiction. That's certainly been the case in my life - nothing too suss though [Smile] Well, not much anyway.

Surely there are plenty of other pathways. I don't think there's an essence. The notion seems too easy somehow.

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've said this before but I sincerely believe the essence of sin to be self-deception. Once you can convince yourself that evil is good, then it is a doddle to deceive others similarly.

If one is in a position of power then I suppose the effect is magnified.

I agree, but I would go a step further. I believe the essence of sin is a craving that is combined with self-deception. Not all craving is evil, but all evil originates with a craving (e.g. for power, pleasure, riches, or fame) that becomes sin when it's combined with the self-deception that's necessary to give the craving license to put itself above everything else.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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mr cheesy
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I think the problem is that in any given situation there are a range of different outcomes leading to a range of different impacts on different people. So if the "powerful" person is defined as someone who is in a position to decide and make change, then "misuse" (or "correct use") surely depends on perspective.

It might sound like sense to take Aristotle's advice and look for the Golden Mean between the wrong extremes, but how does one in a situation determine what the extremes are, never mind where the Golden Mean lies in the spectrum? Surely nobody wants to believe that they are at the extreme, self-rationalism says that they are in the correct, centre, normal position.

As for power and sin, I think the difficulty is being able to identify sinful actions unambiguously outwith of the personal. How are we defining the "misuse of power"? If it is just that a particular choice is harming someone else, is there not always someone who is harmed by almost any choice? If it is about a considerable number who are harmed, is there no situation where a choice between "sins" is made for the greater good?

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arse

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Barnabas62
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I think I'd vote for pride as the essential ingredient, with lust for, and abuse of, power as two of its many "children".

Which would make humility the virtuous antidote. Humble people do get into positions of leadership and responsibility for exercising power, but IME those who do are genuinely accountable and not given to abuse of power. Regardless of what the constitution may, or may not, say. Checks and balances are far better administered by people conscious of their own fallibility and the need to listen to others.

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anteater

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Why the strong desire to find one element which is the "essence" of sin? Most problems, be they psychological, physical or spiritual, are multi-determined, and I don't think it helps to try and reduce the causes to one "essential" cause.

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Eutychus
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I wasn't thinking so much in terms of reducing all sin to a question of power as in terms of seeing that what makes a lot of instances sinful is an element of power.

One oft-quoted example is that of rape being first and foremost about exercising power and not sexual gratification.

On the other hand, a lot of "white-collar" sins (such as the type of behaviour KLB referred to on the Bacon Butties thread as microagression) seem to go unrecognised because they don't tick the more sordid boxes; they are however all about power.

Perhaps I mean that power factors might be a good yardstick for discerning (some) sin.

[ 14. January 2016, 07:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

On the other hand, a lot of "white-collar" sins (such as the type of behaviour KLB referred to on the Bacon Butties thread as microagression) seem to go unrecognised because they don't tick the more sordid boxes; they are however all about power.


I don't know. I'd have thought that the person who erred by forgetting to provide for vegetarians or the person who wilfully decided not to purchase vegetarian sausages was rather more at fault than the pastor who made a crass joke about it. Of course, that might easily be the same person.

As we're trading anacdotes:

When I was temporarily in a Baptist church many years ago, the minister had a habit of trying to "ram through" changes. On one occasion he asked members to stay behind after a Sunday service for an unscheduled member's meeting, where he asked everyone just to "go with it" so we could all go home quickly and avoid spoiling our Sunday dinner.

Which has all kinds of moral and possibly legal implications.

To me this is an example of a wilful abuse of power.

Together with an experience of seeing a Minister hounded out of a job/house/income by a spiteful elder with no recourse to any kind of complaints procedure or proper process was one of the major reasons why I have avoided churches arranged in this way since.

Of course I appreciate that there are other problems in other kinds of church model.

[ 14. January 2016, 08:07: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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LeRoc

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I've been reading about theologies that think in terms of Love vs Power. What I like about them is the way they include my neighbour. It isn't just about what power does to me, it's much more about what my power does to someone else.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:

I don't think it helps to try and reduce the causes to one "essential" cause.

Agreed. Which doesn't invalidate consideration of primary or secondary causes. That's not, or not necessarily, a reductionist process, nor does it rule out multiple causation.

[ 14. January 2016, 09:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... Once you can convince yourself that evil is good, then it is a doddle to deceive others similarly.

A variant on this perhaps. Power enables us to act upon decisions and we can easily justify our decisions. To take a very old example, Aeschylus' Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter to get wind to take the fleet to Troy. In Greek terms he made the right decision, but the Chorus criticize him for assuming that he is therefore excused the guilt of murdering his daughter.

Even the best choice can have bad consequences. Ignoring the bad consequences because you made the right decision is an insidious danger of power. Soon the end justifies the means.

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itsarumdo
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In the Taoist tradition, all emotions come in lower and higher forms, the higher forms being all expressions of Love. Anger can transform into a feeling of ability to act - empowerment, which is a necessary aspect of any Love. Love that is not given physical expression through action has rather limited use. I think there are other ways that love can express in action than through alchemised anger, but they are not usually experienced as "power".

Most criticisms of power are focussed on the way that it is mis-used to express reptile/hindbrain urges (sex, food/money, territory) rather than something a bit more human (or even mammalian).

I'm still getting to grips with this. But at the moment my understanding of sin is that it arises when our thoughts or actions are not according to divine order - they are not an expression of our best possible potential in this specific moment. As such, we sin all the time through not loving/believing in ourselves enough and not loving/believing in God enough. Most of that for most people is due to an expression of powerlessNESS rather than being a positive abuse of power. The very next moment, the sin is forgiven (by God) and we start again with the same opportunity. So do the seconds of the day tick by.

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mark_in_manchester

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quote:
quote:

anteater:

I don't think it helps to try and reduce the causes to one "essential" cause.

B62:

Agreed. Which doesn't invalidate consideration of primary or secondary causes. That's not, or not necessarily, a reductionist process, nor does it rule out multiple causation.


One of the useful things about the '7 deadlies' (or, if you want to go back in time a little further, the '8 thoughts') is that they provide a kind of decomposition of our faults into separate axes of 'sin space'.

Unlike Cartesian (3D xyz) space, colour (rgb), taste (sweet, sour etc) and Fourier (!) decomposition, sin space does not seem to have very orthogonal axes - there seems to be some overlap or redundancy between them. But still, it can be useful to consider what proportions of rgb comprise your personal shade of brown, without needing to think that red (for example) somehow caused green and blue - which would be reductionism, not simply useful decomposition.

For my money, the 'body' ones (lust, gluttony) sit a little apart, but could be considered as types of bodily greed (itself often reserved for issues of wealth). And I agree with B62 - pride makes me angry, greedy, vain, and even slothful - 'why *should* I do ** when my talents are so woefully unappreciated?'.

I'm making prayer for humility a big thing - I really need it. Most of this post was me exercising a bit of redundant-engineer pride. B62 said it first.

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(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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LeRoc

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I'd like to see a Fourier transform of my sins. I'm sure it would look interesting [Smile]

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mark_in_manchester

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Just take the stuff you do, multiply it by e^j(fuckery_n *t) where 0<n<8, and integrate dt from the dawn of time to the end of all ages. Or truncate at your birth and death if you prefer, or estimate over one waking day if you tend to do the same old shit.

Try to avoid being mid-sin as you wake or go to sleep; truncation errors may be improved by using a window function, at the cost of explicit spiritual guidance smearing across sin space and giving only generalised impressions of undifferentiated wankery.

[Smile]

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
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LeRoc

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quote:
mark_in_manchester: Try to avoid being mid-sin as you wake or go to sleep
This is going to be difficult.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Joesaphat
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Not power, I'm with the Fathers and the Buddha: ignorance and greed. There's an element of greed and ignorance in every other sin, always, but not necessarily a power dimension. How does power cause or help pride for instance? You can even feel proud of your humility. Or despair? Or laziness?
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Lamb Chopped
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Mark, you're going in the Quotesfile!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... Once you can convince yourself that evil is good, then it is a doddle to deceive others similarly.

A variant on this perhaps. Power enables us to act upon decisions and we can easily justify our decisions. To take a very old example, Aeschylus' Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter to get wind to take the fleet to Troy. In Greek terms he made the right decision, but the Chorus criticize him for assuming that he is therefore excused the guilt of murdering his daughter.

Even the best choice can have bad consequences. Ignoring the bad consequences because you made the right decision is an insidious danger of power. Soon the end justifies the means.

Pride is the root of that problem, not an unintended result of a "best" choice.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've been reading about theologies that think in terms of Love vs Power. What I like about them is the way they include my neighbour. It isn't just about what power does to me, it's much more about what my power does to someone else.

I like that. I relates to the (better) conversations we're having these days re "privilege". If you're born white, or male you have disproportionate power compared to some of your neighbors-- but it's not power you chose and it's not power you can shed. But we can become more conscious of these aspects of hidden privilege/ power and be more thoughtful re how we use that power, and to use it in aid of those with less privilege/power.

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mark_in_manchester

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quote:
If you're born white, or male you have disproportionate power compared to some of your neighbors-- but it's not power you chose and it's not power you can shed.
Oooh, I don't know about that last bit. I've gone from being a white male lecturer to a white (well, vaguely-oil-coloured) male lab technician, and many of the brown-ish students treat me with mighty distain [Big Grin]

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Adeodatus
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Certainly within the Church, the misuse of power is a great source of - or opportunity for - sin. Some of the wisest words ever given to me on priestly ministry were "Realise the power you have - and don't use it."

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Martin60
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Eutychus.

I completely agree with the proposition. Sin is always about abuse of power. I can't think of an exception. I've been sinning like a good 'un this evening. And it's all been about power; responsibility, control, grace under fire. And not coping. The root of which means to strike back. Which one way or another I HAVE been doing. And not with grace and peace and understanding and acceptance.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Eutychus.

I completely agree with the proposition. Sin is always about abuse of power. I can't think of an exception.

Then you imagination is limited.
If sin is deed, then you would have a point. But don't your own scriptures speak of sinning in one's heart?
I can assure you that the powerless and the fearful are not automatically pure in heart.
Power and adversity are the forged by which our mettle is tested. With no test, you virtue is undemonstrated.
By you definition, the weak are automatically saints, the timid are angels.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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Indeed it is. Is that a sin? Is weakness and ignorance sin? I have no idea at what point finding women unfathomably attractive crosses over in to lust. But I do know what helpless lust is. And it doesn't take even a look. The power of it, like anger, is phenomenal. Fantasizing; planning to act and beginning to act on lust and anger are obviously 'sin'. Abuses of power. Of freedom. They do harm.

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Love wins

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Russ
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Seems to me that if sinning is knowingly choosing wrongdoing, and we have the power of freewill, then there is a sense in which sin is always an abuse of that power.

But that's a true-by-definition thing that doesn't tell us anything about what actions are sinful and why. If you believe that sin is painting your face blue and dancing widdershins around the fire (*) then choosing to do that is an abuse of your power of freewill...

To make a case that it is true in the stronger sense - that something is sinful precisely to the extent that it is an abuse of power - then I guess we need to be a bit clearer about what power is and what the right and wrong uses of power are.

The sin of Satan was to choose power rather than love. I tend to agree that those who look at a situation and ask whether those involved have power, rather than whether those involved are loved, have the wrong end of the stick.

But that's a long way short of a coherent theory...

(*) rather than painting your face white and dancing clockwise...

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Indeed it is. Is that a sin? Is weakness and ignorance sin? I have no idea at what point finding women unfathomably attractive crosses over in to lust. But I do know what helpless lust is. And it doesn't take even a look. The power of it, like anger, is phenomenal. Fantasizing; planning to act and beginning to act on lust and anger are obviously 'sin'. Abuses of power. Of freedom. They do harm.

There is no such thing as helpless lust. That is an excuse.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Then you've never experienced it.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Bullshit. Lust isn't spontaneous. One simply doesn't wander around with a virtuous heart and suddenly lust uncontrollably when the right combination of body parts walks by.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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# 368

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Nobody walked by. I know a man ... who dreads visiting his stepson, whom he loves dearly and who positively wants to see him, because he lives in the same complex as the man's ex-wife. The man dreads encountering his ex-wife. Because he never stopped loving her. Nor she him. Because life is complicated beyond mere belief including merest rationalization.

He dreads her vulnerability. And his own.

This same man has an above board but complex relationship with his former minister and his wife. These are all people in their 60's. When the former minister was stricken, his wife reached out broadly for support. She had reached out to support our man in his troubles and share some of her own some years before. Always on neutral ground. Although it was once at a hotel restaurant after a mutual close friend's funeral with our man's ex-wife present.

Do you know what unspoken question was going through the man's mind?

Subtle, restrained, British nitro-glycerine. Nothing EVER happened. But it would have taken NOTHING. It should be in the novel. There's more of course.

Along with another extra-ordinary encounter with a woman desperately looking for her dangerously missing son.

If it were in a novel, nobody would believe it. Apart from Woody Allan. This is a man who avoids porn like the plague yet occasionally finds himself transfixed with gay hypnopompic reveries.

One just can't legislate for the human heart can one?

So who's talking about looking?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I know a man ...

Is that... are you... being... Pauline?

... to ask it delicately.

And do I want to know? Maybe not. I must be mellowing, as I find myself thinking... perhaps it's best to be... cryptic.

Just... oh.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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We so need a slow-clap smilie, if only for your posts, Martin60.

You've not only moved the goalposts, but put a puppy in between them as well. Nice. I'll address your examples when I get to a proper computer, but I can bend the shot round the cute wee beast.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812

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I'm inclined to think that identity is the source of sin.

Somehow, identity is inextricably entwined with some painful experience or narrative, giving rise to the belief that there was some kind of "lesson to be learned" that's only imperfectly learned and the pain of which is never discharged.

Pain and the lesson imperfectly learned, all balled up together to create some kind of eternally recurring impulse to repeat a painful experience, and to derive a sense of identity from the role one plays in the drama.

Bleh. An impossible tangle in a hall of mirrors. Until the id-entity is sent to Christ for healing.

LAFF

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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?

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Martin60
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# 368

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You can only curve that stone, lilBuddha, if you can show me how you overcame helpless longing, desire, lust, without sin.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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And Cliffdweller, I'm Martine at the weekend. Not Paulene.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You can only curve that stone, lilBuddha, if you can show me how you overcame helpless longing, desire, lust, without sin.

[Roll Eyes]
Attraction is natural. What we do with it is our responsibility. You follow the road on your own volition.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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# 368

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Whatever you say lilBuddha.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And Cliffdweller, I'm Martine at the weekend. Not Paulene.

[Killing me]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Whatever you say lilBuddha.

This is cute, Martin60. But as you present only hazy scenarios and fail to actually build an argument, not much to really say.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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Whatever you say lilBuddha.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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The Lutheran position is AFAIK that all sin is at heart idolatry-a putting of someone or something else in the place where God should be. If you like, screwed up priorities.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Martin60
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# 368

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Hmmm. I don't know what that means. And I don't think I can know. Does it mean anything to anyone here?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
W Hyatt
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# 14250

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It makes a lot of sense to me.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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