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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Has God Failed Again?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Genesis - God creates a perfect world and puts his pinnacle of creation in it. It goes wrong. He floods it and starts again with a particular tribe.
Exodus - end of OT. Israel and Judah keep on getting it wrong, they want human kings, they turn to other gods. Those who remain faithful to the Torah become exclusivist and elitist and rather than being a light to the gentiles they despise them. God's plan fails again. And that's leaving aside the cockup in the middle that sees them in Babylon.
NT - Jesus inaugarates (can't be arsed to check spelling) a new covenant, the Kingdom of God amongst us here on Earth. But we get centuries years of religious persecution, violence and bloodshed. The new Kingdom of God characterised by love, peace, joy, forgiveness and forbearance seems pretty thin on the ground. God's plan fails again?
Was Leon Rosselson right? Should we rather Stand up, Stand up for Judas
[ 20. May 2016, 08:08: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
To err is human, to forgive Divine?
But I suppose if you believe the reverse is true, then it seems a good idea to forgive God for His perceived errors.
I like this excerpt from the movie "Philomena"
quote:
Philomena: Sister Hildegarde, I want you to know that I forgive you.
Martin Sixsmith: What? Just like that?
Philomena: Its not 'just like that'... it's hard. That's hard for me. But I don't want to hate people. I don't want to be like you... Look at you.
Martin Sixsmith: I'm angry.
Philomena: Must be exhausting.
Sister Hildegarde, so far gone in her bitterness and self-righteousness, seemed very surprised to discover that someone she saw as a sinner understood that she needed forgiveness. Philomena seems to have had a much better understanding of its value and its power than Martin Sixsmith.
So I reckon it's worth a try.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'm curious as to which part of God's plan failed. As i see it, we are the failures and the ones who thwart.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
NT - Jesus inaugarates (can't be arsed to check spelling) a new covenant, the Kingdom of God amongst us here on Earth. But we get centuries years of religious persecution, violence and bloodshed. The new Kingdom of God characterised by love, peace, joy, forgiveness and forbearance seems pretty thin on the ground.
Well, I think the first part of that is a bit of a strawman, at least as far as the New Testament is concerned:
Jesus: I come to bring not peace but a sword.
John: The world is evil and you will all be persecuted and hated.
Paul: The church is full of evil people. Also, have I mentioned how many times I've been thrown in prison?
Acts: Then the evil Jews and pagans picked on the church again.
Revelation: GIANT MANY-HEADED MONSTERS DESTROY THE WORLD!!! (Tea and biscuits will be served afterwards.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I'm curious as to which part of God's plan failed. As i see it, we are the failures and the ones who thwart.
Not the point. God knows that because he's omniscient. But not, apparently, omniscient enough to come up with plans that actually work.
If I have to upgrade everyone's computer at work to IE11, and I do it by advertising the software, but no-one installs it, I still get the blame because I came up with a rubbish plan that didn't allow for users not doing what I want. I'm expected to come up with something that works.
[ 20. May 2016, 09:34: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
What if you install it perfectly and all your co-workers then download a load of malware and it crashes?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Ricardus: quote:
Revelation: GIANT MANY-HEADED MONSTERS DESTROY THE WORLD!!! (Tea and biscuits will be served afterwards.)
Quotes file.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
NT - Jesus inaugarates (can't be arsed to check spelling)
Inaugurates.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What if you install it perfectly and all your co-workers then download a load of malware and it crashes?
My fault again. Their PCs should be patched and have decent AV on them. Because users do this sort of thing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, the idea of God's plan, or the God of history, is an interesting guess. I saw a quote from Oliver Heywood, 'God doth not do as workmen do, that make an artificial engine, and set it a-going and leave it to itself, but his favour preserves our being and well-being'.
It's not so much that people have rejected this idea, as become indifferent to it? It doesn't seem very interesting.
http://tinyurl.com/zs4u5sz
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But not, apparently, omniscient enough to come up with plans that actually work.
Of course we are still early in the game. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
True, Freddy.
Karl, what precisely is it that you think Jesus promised that He has failed to deliver?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What if you install it perfectly and all your co-workers then download a load of malware and it crashes?
My fault again. Their PCs should be patched and have decent AV on them. Because users do this sort of thing.
Doesn't this just amount to the free will argument, which I won't insult your intelligence by repeating?
If IE11 is critical for your colleagues to do their jobs, then it's not desirable that they should have a choice about whether or not to install it. But for God, apparently, human choice is important.
You might find the free will argument unconvincing of course.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Karl:
quote:
Not the point. God knows that because he's omniscient. But not, apparently, omniscient enough to come up with plans that actually work.
If I have to upgrade everyone's computer at work to IE11, and I do it by advertising the software, but no-one installs it, I still get the blame because I came up with a rubbish plan that didn't allow for users not doing what I want. I'm expected to come up with something that works.
That plan requires that people do not have the freedom to do the opposite. Similarly, you seem to be suggesting that God's plan should go ahead without our freedom.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What if you install it perfectly and all your co-workers then download a load of malware and it crashes?
My fault again. Their PCs should be patched and have decent AV on them. Because users do this sort of thing.
Doesn't this just amount to the free will argument, which I won't insult your intelligence by repeating?
No, it doesn't. Even if we decide the project has failed because we've not done our bit, the fact remains that the project has failed, like the Genesis 1 project failed, and like the Israel Light to the Gentiles project failed.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Karl:
quote:
Not the point. God knows that because he's omniscient. But not, apparently, omniscient enough to come up with plans that actually work.
If I have to upgrade everyone's computer at work to IE11, and I do it by advertising the software, but no-one installs it, I still get the blame because I came up with a rubbish plan that didn't allow for users not doing what I want. I'm expected to come up with something that works.
That plan requires that people do not have the freedom to do the opposite. Similarly, you seem to be suggesting that God's plan should go ahead without our freedom.
See my response to Ricardus. If the project fails because of our free will it still fails. The problem here is that if God has perfect foreknowledge he knows the project will fail, but goes ahead anyway.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
True, Freddy.
Karl, what precisely is it that you think Jesus promised that He has failed to deliver?
The Kingdom of God amongst us. Instead we have a church shacked in the bloody chains of violent and cruel history, as much a failure as a beacon to all that is good and noble in the human spirit as ancient Israel was.
But it's not so much that Jesus has failed to deliver, but that God's project to deliver this through him does not seem to have borne fruit.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
How are you defining failure on this context?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Plans don't fail. They are merely a baseline against which variations can be measured.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The transformation of "the kingdoms of this world" into "the kingdoms of our God" is an end-time promise, not a present reality. Both historically and in the present, there have been steps in the right direction, steps in the other direction. There is an indication in the scriptures that things might get so bad that even believers will get deceived about the result of the endgame.
I suppose you might argue that the admitted evils, costs, disappointments of the journey so far are themselves a sign of failure. Surely all this suffering has been unnecessary? For those who have suffered, it is hardly surprising that it sometimes seems that way.
I remember at this point an old nonconformist hymn which had the following lines.
"It were a well spent journey, though seven deaths lay between".
I think you either get that, or you don't.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
But it's not so much that Jesus has failed to deliver, but that God's project to deliver this through him does not seem to have borne fruit.
It seems (forgive my presumption) to have borne fruit in you - you're angry that the best we can say is that evidence for the Kingdom is patchy. Me too. If I were any more than a crap bible scholar I could probably pull out some psalms where a bunch of Jews expressed the same feelings about their perception of failure of the earlier covenant - many falling back on 'but you are the God of love and justice, our hope remains in you' for the final chorus, but some not.
Forgive me again, but when people (and I, sometimes) get to expressing 'I'm so angry about God'd underperformance, I can't believe in him any more' ISTM the argument goes up its own a*se. If Truth is bullshit, how can we get angry about it's not being true? Isn't our anger then an expression of our Faith?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What if you install it perfectly and all your co-workers then download a load of malware and it crashes?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My fault again. Their PCs should be patched and have decent AV on them. Because users do this sort of thing.
No AV is perfect. Or say the users disable the AV because they find it won't let them download the file-sharing software they want to use? Or do any other number of negligent things. At every point it is still your fault?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I'm curious as to which part of God's plan failed. As i see it, we are the failures and the ones who thwart.
Not the point. God knows that because he's omniscient. But not, apparently, omniscient enough to come up with plans that actually work.
We're not at the end of the story yet.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Doesn't this just amount to the free will argument, which I won't insult your intelligence by repeating?
No, it doesn't. Even if we decide the project has failed because we've not done our bit, the fact remains that the project has failed, like the Genesis 1 project failed, and like the Israel Light to the Gentiles project failed.
Well, it depends what we think the Plan was. If the Plan was that we should have free will, then it succeeded.
If the plan was both that we should have free will and that we should do exactly what God says, then I think we can say the plan fails by definition because the deity has inconsistent goals.
This still seems to me to be a restating of the question 'Does the free will argument work?'
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
mark in manchester wrote:
quote:
Forgive me again, but when people (and I, sometimes) get to expressing 'I'm so angry about God'd underperformance, I can't believe in him any more' ISTM the argument goes up its own a*se. If Truth is bullshit, how can we get angry about it's not being true? Isn't our anger then an expression of our Faith?
That's quite clever, but people get disappointed that something didn't work out, don't they? I know quite a few ex-Christians who feel that. It didn't happen to me, as I just sort of subsumed Christianity into all religions, or something. But the 3-omnis God or 4-omnis, or whatever it is, strikes me as a bust, unless you believe in providence. I can hear cliffdweller breathing heavily, and saying that God isn't like that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But the 3-omnis God or 4-omnis, or whatever it is, strikes me as a bust, unless you believe in providence. I can hear cliffdweller breathing heavily, and saying that God isn't like that.
I've become entirely too predictable.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What if you install it perfectly and all your co-workers then download a load of malware and it crashes?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My fault again. Their PCs should be patched and have decent AV on them. Because users do this sort of thing.
No AV is perfect. Or say the users disable the AV because they find it won't let them download the file-sharing software they want to use? Or do any other number of negligent things. At every point it is still your fault?
The analogy breaks down in that I'm not perfect and nor is AV. God apparently is. Actually, though, I would consider myself negligent if I ran a network where users could disable the AV.
[ 20. May 2016, 14:49: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Doesn't this just amount to the free will argument, which I won't insult your intelligence by repeating?
No, it doesn't. Even if we decide the project has failed because we've not done our bit, the fact remains that the project has failed, like the Genesis 1 project failed, and like the Israel Light to the Gentiles project failed.
Well, it depends what we think the Plan was. If the Plan was that we should have free will, then it succeeded.
If the plan was both that we should have free will and that we should do exactly what God says, then I think we can say the plan fails by definition because the deity has inconsistent goals.
This still seems to me to be a restating of the question 'Does the free will argument work?'
My understanding was that the plan was neither of these things. It was to create in Israel, and then in the Church when the Israel plan went west, a people who would be a foretaste of the Kingdom of God on earth. History does not, to my mind, bear out that promise. The plan has failed. Again.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Never considered Jesus as the Great Anti-Virus?
I've got this vision of God hovering his Divine Cursor over them and clicking "smite". Repeatedly.
But do you really think God would run Windows 10?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
We're not at the end of the story yet. [/QB]
This is key. We're not at the end of the narrative. We don't even know if we're only halfway along, or what. A story is not a story if there is not conflict, excitement, bloodshed and misery in the middle. The Author slipped into the narrative and told us that it'll end okay. That has to be good enough for us, and although the ongoing bloodshed and misery are thoroughly unpleasant we have to trust that the Author's got the reins of the plot firmly in His hands.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I wish my ma was here to hear that, the bit about having the plot in his hands. When she lost two of her sons, she spat in the face of all that, and why not.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
We're not at the end of the story yet.
This is key. We're not at the end of the narrative. We don't even know if we're only halfway along, or what. A story is not a story if there is not conflict, excitement, bloodshed and misery in the middle. The Author slipped into the narrative and told us that it'll end okay. That has to be good enough for us, and although the ongoing bloodshed and misery are thoroughly unpleasant we have to trust that the Author's got the reins of the plot firmly in His hands.
Goodness!
That makes us all sound like helpless pawns in a game.
How about God didn't have a plan or story, that God created and creates out of love? Nothing to do with Isreal or Jesus - all that story was/is man appropriating God for his own purposes.
All religion is the effort to make sense of existence I imo, God is above and beyond, in and through all of it ~ no plan.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Whenever you are, you're exactly half way.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
An old tutor of mine used to say, there is no up. And damn and blast, I think he's right, (relatively).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My understanding was that the plan was neither of these things. It was to create in Israel, and then in the Church when the Israel plan went west, a people who would be a foretaste of the Kingdom of God on earth. History does not, to my mind, bear out that promise. The plan has failed. Again.
I don't think that's how I would see the purpose of either the Old or the New Covenants. Partly because I don't think it's what the Bible says, and partly because it leads to exactly the problems you describe in your OP.
If pressed, I suppose I would say that the Old Covenant existed to bear witness that Christ would come, and the New Covenant exists to bear witness that Christ has come.
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The problem with the computer analogy is that I have worked somewhere that took the approach that stopped this, and you could only install things that were properly authorised and approved. The computers were locked down to a stupid degree.
People were turned into automatons. That is not Gods plan - he could have done that from the start, but he didn't, because he is clearly stupid.
I think it depends on what you understand Gods plan to actually be. I think it has always been to provide a way for us to be in a relationship with him. He has done that through Jesus. the fact that pretty much everyone then and since has tried their utmost to fuck this up does not change the fact that this path, this chance is still open.
Maybe - and I am not actually suggesting it - the idea of 144K, or a ridiculously limited number who actually take this up properly, rather than assuming their good life or money given to the church will do them.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
We're not at the end of the story yet.
This is key. We're not at the end of the narrative. We don't even know if we're only halfway along, or what. A story is not a story if there is not conflict, excitement, bloodshed and misery in the middle. The Author slipped into the narrative and told us that it'll end okay. That has to be good enough for us, and although the ongoing bloodshed and misery are thoroughly unpleasant we have to trust that the Author's got the reins of the plot firmly in His hands. [/QB]
I'm sure that's a great comfort to the ones whose blood is being shed, or the ones who love them ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . It's not all OK for them, is it?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
This thread is dovetailing nicely with the cheap grace thread. I haven't figured out how to connect one thread to another, but W Hyatt had an excellent summation there, I think, of how God's plan intersects with our free will and, I think, the purpose of this life and the next.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
But do you really think God would run Windows 10?
I'm quite certain it was invented by the Other Guy.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Actually - and this may or may not be germane - I dislike the language of God having a 'plan', as though God is the great Project Manager in the Sky. I'm not sure the idea that history had a planning phase and then an implementation phase is consistent with the doctrine of God's eternity.
(I suspect the language of planning comes from the church's tendency to recycle old business-speak. My current employer is making a great effort to move away from a 'waterfall planning model' - where you make detailed plans in advance that fall into a black hole when afterwards reality doesn't match your assumptions - to an 'agile model', where you make it up as you go along. In twenty years time, expect to hear sermons describing God's amazing customer journey for your life.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I think it was in The Mind of the Maker that Dorothy L. Sayers pointed out how even at the very minor level of creativity that writers work in, the author's rule is not absolute. The writer writes the book, and in the author the characters live and move and have their being, and without the author nothing is made that is made. All true, clearly and visibly. But it is also true that the creation, properly made, is alive -- the characters in the book have their own nature and will, and the writer defies that nature only with peril. You can't make the characters get married, or convert to Ba'hai, or join the Army. They must fulfill their own nature, or the entire work dies on you. All the author really can do is sit up there on her cloud, fingering the thunderbolts and grumbling.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The analogy breaks down in that I'm not perfect and nor is AV. God apparently is.
The question is whether perfect is a state that over-rides free will. It seems to me that if perfect becomes perfect control to avoid a particular outcome then there isn't free will.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm sure that's a great comfort to the ones whose blood is being shed
Actually there are many who have shed blood who have reported great comfort. Do you speak for them?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The analogy breaks down in that I'm not perfect and nor is AV. God apparently is.
The question is whether perfect is a state that over-rides free will. It seems to me that if perfect becomes perfect control to avoid a particular outcome then there isn't free will.
That's right.
At the same time this doesn't necessarily mean that it is not guaranteed to work out right in the end. Of course it may or may not work out, but I am betting that it will.
As messed up as the world is, it is not that difficult to see a game plan in place, and to see that it is working and will work.
First of all, the "be fruitful and multiply" aspect of it is going great guns. No species, except maybe ants, has been as successful. Of all the species humans are perhaps the only one that has never suffered a population decline - and if it did, say in the black death, it was small by comparison to the variations found in other species.
But far more important is that "the plan" depends, according to the gospels, on the spread of the gospel. This is an enterprise that has so far been more successful than any other, ever. Only the music video "Gangnam Style" has more views.
This makes it obvious that "the plan" involves worldwide education followed by intelligently worked out reforms.
I think that it is impossible to deny that this is what is happening, and that it will continue to happen.
The fact that it all comes about through our free will makes it all the more miraculous. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
Everything and anything can be interpreted as God's Plan if we try hard enough.
What if a catastrophic asteroid explosion happened next week combined with a Super volcano eruption? Those of us remaining who want to believe in God's Plan will no doubt stand there dumbstruck at God's Power and sudden change of heart as to the fortunes of Mankind.
I don't see God's plan as having failed but more as something ever evolving.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I think it makes more sense to talk about God's plans rather than Plan. If our freedom is real and not just illusionary, then God cannot have one unswerving Plan. And if He did, that would mean that God must be the author of all the evil we see/experience.
It makes more sense to think of plans. God's plans are contingent upon our free choices. These are not unanticipated-- being omniscient means not that he has comprehensive knowledge of all our future free choices, but it means he has comprehensive knowledge of of all our future potential free choices. Being able to anticipate each (and the implications/consequences of each), he is able to have a plan (or rather, multiple plans) to accomplish his ultimate purposes in any contingency. But since we are free he cannot know or control which path we will choose, only his response to each.
[ 20. May 2016, 21:28: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
God's plans are contingent upon our free choices. These are not unanticipated-- being omniscient means not that he has comprehensive knowledge of all our future free choices, but it means he has comprehensive knowledge of of all our future potential free choices.
This is certainly reasonable.
In the end only one of those plans will happen. In my view God not only knows all the options, He also knows which one will actually take place. I understand that many people would see this as a lack of freedom, but I do not.
In any case, it doesn't matter. I am happy to go with the idea of many plans. The underlying truth is that He does not interfere with human freedom, because it is essential to the very definition of love. So as far as we are concerned there may be no plan at all - we have no way of knowing.
But I am very attached to the idea that this is all headed somewhere, that a better future is not only possible but virtually certain, and that all the unpleasantness that makes us think that God has failed will not be in vain.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
I regularly wonder why God puts up with us humans (including specifically with me). There is none righteous, no not one. Does God ever regret the rainbow promise?
Hey, it started before our time if the theory is right that a third of the angels rebelled and started a civil war in heaven.
And yet God keeps trying.
I think there is not a plan exactly, but confidence of totally winning voluntary admiration and resulting trust and cooperation from all created beings, even if we never become capable of perfect devotion or perfect behavior and attitudes towards each other.
Love is foolish, ask the poets. Love values the loved one, even though the loved one is deeply flawed.
I don't understand how we are all going to get along "in heaven" if we can't get along with our own families and neighbors here. Maybe we won't? Maybe somehow it won't matter because to God there is something far more important?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Why are we so down on ourselves? On being 'failures'?
web page Mole he is burrowing, his way to the sunlight.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
He knows there's someone there so strong.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't understand how we are all going to get along "in heaven" if we can't get along with our own families and neighbors here. Maybe we won't? Maybe somehow it won't matter because to God there is something far more important?
I don't think there is something more important. We won't get along in heaven if we don't get along here.
What I think is that we are learning how to get along here. So increasingly we are getting along in heaven.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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