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Source: (consider it) Thread: Should we try to create the kingdom of God on earth ?
moonlitdoor
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In a discussion about the Fall, Curiosity Killed wrote "The problem with focusing on life after death and the resurrection of all things to come is that it can mean that we ignore any need to create the Kingdom on Earth now."

I flippantly wrote "You say that like it was a bad thing." But I didn't have time to expand on my remark before their discussion had moved in a different direction.

So should we be trying to create the kingdom of God on earth ? I would say no. Firstly because we can't agree about what it would look like. People may agree at the level of using words like justice, peace, love etc but as soon as you try to get to what that would mean in detail, there's no sort of agreement.

Secondly because I can't imagine what anyone thinks would be the mechanism for bringing it about. I assume something is meant more than just individual Christians trying to be good people, as that has always been happening without producing anything resembling the kingdom of God.

But I can't imagine many people in the UK voting for a kingdom of God party. Equally I can't see a justification for imposing it on people if they didn't vote for it. I guess that I am not getting what people mean when they talk about creating the kingdom.

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LeRoc

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Yes.

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A Feminine Force
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This is what we pray for every time we utter The Lord's Prayer.

"Thy Kingdom come and Thy Will be done, here on earth as it is in Heaven."

ISTM we should at least give it a good faith effort. God's Grace doesn't just fall out of the sky. Nothing gets done except through us. WE are the agents of Grace.

AFF

[ 07. April 2016, 19:01: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]

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Eutychus
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At one end, you have millenarians of various stripes who want to see the millenial future they foresee for the hereafter being implemented in the here and now, in full.

These range from Reconstructionism (a sort of Christian variation of Sharia law) to the Bethel types seeking to implement healing, miracles and so on, believing they form the literal body of Christ to which he will return as the Head once they have got their act together.

At the other end, you have realised millenialists who don't really think in terms of an afterlife at all.

These range from those who see the Kingdom of God in terms of progress in healthcare and social advances and the like, through to full-blown liberation theologians who see the Kingdom of God as a revolutionary political act.

I, of course, hold to the perfectly balanced middle view [Big Grin] which holds that the Kingdom is both now and not yet.

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Garasu
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Is this the pre-millenialist/post-millenialist thing?

Is the world working towards the point where Christ can return in glory (because it's finally ready for him); or the point where he has to return in glory (because it's the only way to fix it)?

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Enoch
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It's difficult at the moment to add any comment apart from 'I agree with Moonlitdoor and Eutychus'.

People have done some horrible things to each other in the name of bringing in their version of the kingdom.

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SvitlanaV2
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moonlitdoor

Hmmm. You seem to be promoting inertia as the solution to disagreement among Christians...!

Individual Christians as well as groups of Christians who come together because they do share the same doctrines or sense of mission, etc., certainly can and should develop and act upon their own understanding of the Kingdom. Why shouldn't they? In a significant sense, our religion - above all in its Protestant incarnation - is about the individual following the promptings of the Holy Spirit in his or her heart.

Regarding party politics, our values no doubt influence how we vote, but in a liberal democracy there are committed Christians who vote for all parties, no doubt. And those few people in my country who see value in founding a specifically 'Christian' party are at liberty to do so. I presume that the Kingdom of God is not a numbers game.

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LeRoc

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I have the feeling that the people on both sides of this issue aren't even speaking the same language, so big are their conceptual differences.

[ 07. April 2016, 19:43: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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Eutychus
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That's probably why Jesus enjoined us to seek the Kingdom...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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agingjb
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Loving your neighbour as yourself? (Not, BTW, do unto others etc.).

But I've just been told, elsewhere, there my views on this are misplaced here. Silence is golden.

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Nicolemr
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The Lord's Prayer calls for God's Kingdom to come, not for us to create it. Seeking to create it ourselves to me smacks of hubris, and just generally seems a really bad idea.

[ 07. April 2016, 20:15: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:

So should we be trying to create the kingdom of God on earth ?

Sure we should. By conversion of heart. One soul at a time. When everyone has experienced such conversion, the kingdom will have arrived.

You're perhaps confusing that kingdom that is not of this world with the triumph of one's own political or religious views ?

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Martin60
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Why keep Him waiting?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
This is what we pray for every time we utter The Lord's Prayer.

"Thy Kingdom come and Thy Will be done, here on earth as it is in Heaven."

ISTM we should at least give it a good faith effort. God's Grace doesn't just fall out of the sky. Nothing gets done except through us. WE are the agents of Grace.

Well, I have no need to try to formulate a response, since AFF has perfectly done so for me.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
So should we be trying to create the kingdom of God on earth ? I would say no. Firstly because we can't agree about what it would look like. People may agree at the level of using words like justice, peace, love etc but as soon as you try to get to what that would mean in detail, there's no sort of agreement.

Let's turn it the other way around. Should we be trying to make the world more just, more peaceful, and more loving?
Just because we don't agree on what the end goal should look like doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make a start. We might not be able to bring in perfect justice, but we can take on blatant injustices.
Also, just because we don't agree on what justice is in detail doesn't mean we can't debate it.

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Curiosity killed ...

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(Yes, LeRoc - really talking past each other)

So the Lord's Prayer is irrelevant? Those inconvenient words from Jesus' mouth where he says:
quote:
So you should pray like this:
Our Father in heaven,
may your name be held holy,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven Matthew 6: 9-10

don't mean anything? We really shouldn't be praying for the kingdom of God and God's will be done on earth?
(There's another version in Luke 11: 2-4)

And Teresa of Avila got it wrong when she said:
quote:
“Christ has no body now but yours. No hands, no feet on earth but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses all the world. Yours are the hands, yours are the feet, yours are the eyes, you are his body. Christ has no body now on earth but yours.”
A few years ago, I heard the person who set up something called Nightstop describe how they did it. It's a stop gap system of housing teenagers when they become homeless because often it's a row that can be resolved. She then went on to set up two houses to home young people who were permanently homeless, with support to teach them how to look after themselves. She described praying to God about this need she perceived and God telling her it was her job to do it.

Is she wrong in thinking this is about Kingdom values? And that she should be doing this work?

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Gamaliel
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I've said this on these boards before, I think, but the late, great missiologist Lesslie Newbigin once wrote that to attempt to bring Heaven down from above invariably brings Hell up from below ...

He was referring, of course, to attempts to establish some form of Theocracy ... be it in Puritan New England or wherever else.

I would contend that 'thy Kingdom come' doesn't involve trying to enforce some form of 'godly government' of some kind - and for all my disagreements with a certain Anabaptist, I'd share that particular idea with him - but trying by various means and processes to create a more just, loving and considerate society ...

It's a tall order. But I can't see a kind of pietistic withdrawal from the public sphere as holding out any answers either. Not that I'm against monasticism or anything of that kind - base-communities or neo-monastic communities or whatever else ...

But I don't see that we have any option but to try to work towards the kinds of things that A Feminine Force has identified ...

I don't see any way around that.

None of these things operate in a vacuum. The Kingdom requires agents ... we should aspire to become those agents ... in however small a way.

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Doone
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AFF and G sum it up for me. It's similar to feeling so overwhelmed by all the pain and need in the world that it is all too easy to bury our heads in the sand or become paralysed with indecision, rather than just getting on with helping the one person you can or doing whatever small thing is possible in your circumstances.

[ 07. April 2016, 21:18: Message edited by: Doone ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The Lord's Prayer calls for God's Kingdom to come, not for us to create it. Seeking to create it ourselves to me smacks of hubris, and just generally seems a really bad idea.

Well, I don't think anyone thinks we can create it on our own. But those of us in the "inaugurated eschatology" camp think we're called to participate in it. NT Wright says we are "practicing in this life for the life that is to come". I think that's what we're saying when we say the Lord's prayer-- we aren't suggesting we have the power to do it, but we're not just passively sitting back and asking Jesus to zap it done either. We are submitting our wills to his, and entering into what he is doing. I think that's what Jesus' prayer in John 17 is all about-- sending us off to be "in the world but not of the world"-- to be proclaiming and demonstrating the coming Kingdom.

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WearyPilgrim
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It's interesting that I was discussing this very subject with my best friend's son, a United Methodist (USA) minister, earlier today. In that e-conversation, I said that America cannot be both a theocracy and democracy. That was proved as soon as the first generation of New England Puritans and Pilgrims began dying off. The Half-Way Covenant of 1662 was the Massachusetts Bay Colony's first concession to the nascent secularization of American culture.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
It's interesting that I was discussing this very subject with my best friend's son, a United Methodist (USA) minister, earlier today. In that e-conversation, I said that America cannot be both a theocracy and democracy. That was proved as soon as the first generation of New England Puritans and Pilgrims began dying off. The Half-Way Covenant of 1662 was the Massachusetts Bay Colony's first concession to the nascent secularization of American culture.

I would agree, but don't think that's really what "participating in the Kingdom means"-- although I admit a bunch of my co-evangelicals have attempted to do precisely that. I would agree with Gamaliel:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've said this on these boards before, I think, but the late, great missiologist Lesslie Newbigin once wrote that to attempt to bring Heaven down from above invariably brings Hell up from below ...

He was referring, of course, to attempts to establish some form of Theocracy ... be it in Puritan New England or wherever else.

I would contend that 'thy Kingdom come' doesn't involve trying to enforce some form of 'godly government' of some kind - and for all my disagreements with a certain Anabaptist, I'd share that particular idea with him - but trying by various means and processes to create a more just, loving and considerate society ...

It's a tall order. But I can't see a kind of pietistic withdrawal from the public sphere as holding out any answers either. Not that I'm against monasticism or anything of that kind - base-communities or neo-monastic communities or whatever else ...

But I don't see that we have any option but to try to work towards the kinds of things that A Feminine Force has identified ...

I don't see any way around that.

None of these things operate in a vacuum. The Kingdom requires agents ... we should aspire to become those agents ... in however small a way.

The real problem with trying to enforce a theocracy in American or anywhere else is that it gets the "ways" of the Kingdom all wrong. The "weapons of the Spirit" are not coercion, manipulation, and force-- whether violent or legislative. The ways of the Kingdom are prayer, non-violence, demonstrating love and compassion. We cannot demonstrate the Kingdom by acting in a way that is contrary to the Kingdom-- something we've seen by (again, my co-evangelicals) insisting they "love gays" all the while doing some pretty unloving things. We can only demonstrate the Kingdom by acting like the Kingdom-- and trusting God's Spirit to work in and thru that even if it seems counter-intuitive.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The Lord's Prayer calls for God's Kingdom to come, not for us to create it. Seeking to create it ourselves to me smacks of hubris, and just generally seems a really bad idea.

This reminds me of a movie I saw in which a bunch of people are arguing about whether to evangelize/do missions. The basic idea was that it was hubris to do God's job for him. God is perfectly capable of calling the heathens to himself.

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Nicolemr
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quote:
This reminds me of a movie I saw in which a bunch of people are arguing about whether to evangelize/do missions. The basic idea was that it was hubris to do God's job for him. God is perfectly capable of calling the heathens to himself.
I would agree with this, personally.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The Lord's Prayer calls for God's Kingdom to come, not for us to create it. Seeking to create it ourselves to me smacks of hubris, and just generally seems a really bad idea.

This reminds me of a movie I saw in which a bunch of people are arguing about whether to evangelize/do missions. The basic idea was that it was hubris to do God's job for him. God is perfectly capable of calling the heathens to himself.
So Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:9-- just kidding?

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mousethief

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We are God's arms and legs and mouths and ears and eyes and stuff on earth. It's pretty blatant in the New Testament that we are limbs ("members" originally meant "body parts" not "participants in a group"). God is not in the habit of doing by magic things that we should be doing by the sweat of our brows or the coin of our realm. We are how God acts in the world.

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LeRoc

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I'd need to ask the Kerygmaniacs, but I don't think that "Thy will be done" means "Do Thy Thou will Thyself". To me, it very much carries the implication "Thy will be done … by us".

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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A Feminine Force
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The Lord's Prayer calls for God's Kingdom to come, not for us to create it. Seeking to create it ourselves to me smacks of hubris, and just generally seems a really bad idea.

Experiments in utopian theories of society have a history of ending badly for reasons you state here.

So what does it mean to try to create the Kingdom here on earth?

For the only answer that doesn't seek to impose on others my idea of the Kingdom, I refer to the sayings gospel of Thomas - (GTh 3) -

quote:

"If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."



For me personally, I take it to be true that the Kingdom is already here, but for the beam in my eye, I can't see it.

For me personally, to create the Kingdom here on earth means to remove every last obstacle within me (sin) that prevents me from experiencing what it feels like to be a child of the Living Father.

ISTM that there's not much point in inhabiting the Kingdom if I can't feel what that feels like. And I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to labour towards that every day - every hour a little closer to feeling that way of being within. "To see Thee more clearly, love Thee more dearly, follow Thee more nearly day by day".

I hope if I finally get there, then I will meet others in a similar place, and then I hope it will be a truly free association of individuals in full submission to the Christ.

AFF

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LeRoc

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quote:
Curiosity killed ...: (Yes, LeRoc - really talking past each other)
It almost appears to me that when some people hear the phrase "create the Kingdom of God on Earth", they see people with red flags burning down cities. I'm exaggerating a bit here, but this came as a bit of a surprise to me. I think it will be difficult to have a conversation when there is such a large conceptual gap.

FWIW, I don't normally use the term "create the Kingdom of God on Earth"; I prefer to phrase it as "making God's Kingdom more visible on Earth." I'm not sure if that makes a difference.


(PS I'm still rooting for the guys with the red flags of course [Smile] )

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
FWIW, I don't normally use the term "create the Kingdom of God on Earth"; I prefer to phrase it as "making God's Kingdom more visible on Earth." I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

To me it does. While I largely agree with all that AFF, Gamaliel, mousethief and others have said, I'm not quite comfortable with the word "create." I'm not sure it even fits when we're talking about the kingdom (reign/realm/whatever) of God. But to the degree it does, God creates it, though we are indeed invited to participate.

I tend to think in terms of "heralding" or "announcing" the Kingdom, "exhibiting" the Kingdom, or as you say making the Kingdom more visible on Earth. I am reminded from a line from the liturgy that always resonates with me—"As this bread is Christ's body for us, send us out to be the body of Christ in the world." That, I think, is making the Kingdom of God more visible.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Secondly because I can't imagine what anyone thinks would be the mechanism for bringing it about. I assume something is meant more than just individual Christians trying to be good people, as that has always been happening without producing anything resembling the kingdom of God.

I do think that this is the issue. What would the mechanism be for bringing this about?

My view is that the mechanism is the most obvious and intuitive one, and that it is proceeding exactly as expected, despite the appearance.

Most people think that the solutions to the world's problems are to be found in long term world-wide advances in knowledge, technology, education, science, economics and understanding, and the resulting modifications of our behavior, interactions, and impact on the planet.

I think that this is it exactly.

The part that people miss, I think, is that whereas Christians often assume that this process involves abandoning religion, the opposite may actually be the case. Christians assume this because this is the way that things have gone in the West. But this is not necessarily the way that things will go world-wide. The evidence is actually that from a global perspective Christianity is growing faster than ever.

So the key to creating the kingdom of God on earth, or the key to the way that God is creating His kingdom on earth, is the explosive expansion of knowledge and understanding - and this includes an informed, literate, and sophisticated comprehension of Christianity.

The point is that nothing is of greater importance to society's long term development, and the creation of the kingdom of God on earth, than knowing what the truth is.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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How about, We ARE the Kingdom of God on earth. Let's act like it in how we treat each other, all people, and the planet.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, We ARE the Kingdom of God on earth. Let's act like it in how we treat each other, all people, and the planet.

That would never work. [Two face]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, We ARE the Kingdom of God on earth. Let's act like it in how we treat each other, all people, and the planet.

I think there's a bit more-- when we act like it (fwiw, I like the term "participate in") demonstrating the reality of the Kingdom, we are part of expanding the Kingdom-- taking back territory from the enemy-- i.e. abolishing slavery, child abuse, war, hatred, etc.

I think this is what Jesus is getting at in Matt. 16:18 when he says:
quote:
on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.


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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Secondly because I can't imagine what anyone thinks would be the mechanism for bringing it about. I assume something is meant more than just individual Christians trying to be good people, as that has always been happening without producing anything resembling the kingdom of God.

I do think that this is the issue. What would the mechanism be for bringing this about?

Loving God. Loving neighbor as self. Feeding the poor. Clothing the naked. Comforting the sick. Loving our enemies. Returning no one evil for evil.

Seems like that's a start.

I do think that's more simply than "trying to live as good people." It's being the Body of Christ in the world.

It seems to me that some are getting hung up on the idea that the Kingdom of God is some sort of political arrangement. That, I think, is a distortion of what Jesus was saying—in fact, I think it's the opposite of what he was saying.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, We ARE the Kingdom of God on earth. Let's act like it in how we treat each other, all people, and the planet.

Yes!

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, We ARE the Kingdom of God on earth. Let's act like it in how we treat each other, all people, and the planet.

Amen. Now what?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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I think we can pray that we may be enabled to nudge the world in ther direction of kingdom values but we live in the in between times so the world will not be perfect until the eschaton.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Secondly because I can't imagine what anyone thinks would be the mechanism for bringing it about. I assume something is meant more than just individual Christians trying to be good people, as that has always been happening without producing anything resembling the kingdom of God.

I do think that this is the issue. What would the mechanism be for bringing this about?

Loving God. Loving neighbor as self. Feeding the poor. Clothing the naked. Comforting the sick. Loving our enemies. Returning no one evil for evil.

Seems like that's a start.

I do think that's more simply than "trying to live as good people." It's being the Body of Christ in the world.

It seems to me that some are getting hung up on the idea that the Kingdom of God is some sort of political arrangement. That, I think, is a distortion of what Jesus was saying—in fact, I think it's the opposite of what he was saying.

Agree with all of the above, with the exception of the last para-- I think the Kingdom of God is political. I think it is breaking down political systems of violence, oppression and marginalization (which of course are not limited to any single political party or system). But, again, the weapons of the Spirit are not the weapons of this world. So we don't demonstrate the Kingdom of God in the political realm through manipulation and coercion-- e.g. legislating morality. We demonstrate the Kingdom of God thru the means of the Kingdom. See para 1.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I am going to go with Tommy Douglas on this (editted by me, not actually a formal quotation, but preserves the meaning of what he said in an interview in the 1950s):

quote:
... when I moved a resolution along this line [about poverty], I was attacked by a minister of a very prominent city church, who said in all seriousness that the Bible told us that the poor we will always have with us and that God had made two classes of people, the rich and the poor. He made the rich so that they would learn the lesson of benevolence and charity. He made the poor so they would learn the lesson of gratitude, and that we were interfering with the will of God when we tried to abolish poverty. To me, this was sheer blasphemy.... my idea of the Kingdom is that there is righteousness and justice for every person in it. Every person in the Kingdom has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In this Kingdom we are members of one another, and the strong must help to carry the burdens of the weak. I'm not a fit member of the Kingdom if someone else is undergoing misery or carrying burdens and I don't attempt to help that person.
He was a Baptist minister who became the socialist premier of Saskatchewan (brought medicare modelled on the NHS, nationalized house and auto insurance, electric, phone, natural gas systems, various other industries). Very much social gospel. Something that is really lost today. -- I am also dismayed that his party lost the Saskatchewan election on April 4th, but also pleased that it won in Alberta a few months ago.

I hold that the loss of the social gospel and the rise of the greed gospel is the reason we could even have questions like that posed in this topic's title.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, We ARE the Kingdom of God on earth. Let's act like it in how we treat each other, all people, and the planet.

Amen. Now what?
Although I can't argue with urging Christians to act like it, I don't think that is how it will happen. That is, I don't have much of an expectation that Christians will finally wise up and act like Christians.

Instead, I think that there is a process going on. The wheels are grinding away, and nothing any of us do can stop it. It involves everyone on earth, and the long term, painstaking process of cultural change in response to the assimilation of information.

If we Christians change our ways and "be the change" that we wish for our planet, all the better. But I think the driver - which is the continuing explosion of knowledge, with all that this implies - will move forward regardless.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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(Not because of anything, but I just imagined standing in front of the mirror in the morning and saying: "I'm the socialist premier of Saskatchewan". Seriously, that must be cool.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Al Eluia

Inquisitor
# 864

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The Lord's Prayer calls for God's Kingdom to come, not for us to create it. Seeking to create it ourselves to me smacks of hubris, and just generally seems a really bad idea.

I guess it's partly a question of whether to put a period or a comma between "Thy Kingdom come" and "Thy Will be done." The manuscripts aren't helpful in this regard.

Human attempts at theocracy having a pretty poor track record historically, my sense is that we should seek God's kingdom, look for signs of it in our world, and participate in bringing aspects of it into the world around us. But its absolute fulfillment is in the eschatological future. That's the most we can realistically hope for. In the meantime we seek to embody Kingdom values.

[ 08. April 2016, 17:32: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

And Teresa of Avila got it wrong when she said:
quote:
“Christ has no body now but yours. No hands, no feet on earth but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses all the world. Yours are the hands, yours are the feet, yours are the eyes, you are his body. Christ has no body now on earth but yours.”

Just a pedantic point, but Teresa never actually said that (or at least there is no evidence that she said it).

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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moonlitdoor
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# 11707

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quote:

It almost appears to me that when some people hear the phrase "create the Kingdom of God on Earth", they see people with red flags burning down cities.

Whatever our conceptual differences are, I certainly wasn't thinking about people burning down cities, with or without flags. I must be a bit slow on the uptake as I am not sure what the flags mean in this reference. Is it red communist flags ? If so, I wasn't thinking about people of any particular political persuasion either.

Let me start with the Lord's prayer as people wondered what I make of that. If I think about what it means for God's will to be done on earth as in heaven, I suppose that in heaven God's will is readily understood, and that it is acted on because it's God's will, not just coincidentally.

On earth we find it difficult to know God's will, we have other motivations which are often at least as strong, and many people don't believe in God so for them the question of doing his will is moot, though of course they would sometimes do it for other reasons.

So I find it hard to see how it could be on earth as it is in heaven except by a supernatural act. For that reason I always tentatively interpreted that part of the Lord's prayer as being about the second coming of Christ.

Of course though things on earth could be better than they are, so if the question is only whether we should try to make things better rather than worse, according to our own understanding of what would be better, then certainly I agree.

But I would not be likely to call that building the kingdom of God, both because I think it overstates what can be hoped for, and because it encourages us to overestimate the probability that God's will coincides with our own understanding of what would be better.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Clearly, if we could agree on what the Kingdom of God on earth would look like, we could work towards it. Christians, notoriously, do not agree on any such thing, except in the largest and loosest generalities. Peace on earth, yeah, but the moment we try to deal with, oh, Jerusalem, or immigrants, it all falls apart.
We cannot sing from the same page. And so harmony is impossible.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Doone
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# 18470

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Clearly, if we could agree on what the Kingdom of God on earth would look like, we could work towards it. Christians, notoriously, do not agree on any such thing, except in the largest and loosest generalities. Peace on earth, yeah, but the moment we try to deal with, oh, Jerusalem, or immigrants, it all falls apart.
We cannot sing from the same page. And so harmony is impossible.

Yes, the nub of the problem [Tear]
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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think we can pray that we may be enabled to nudge the world in ther direction of kingdom values but we live in the in between times so the world will not be perfect until the eschaton.

leo. When will that be?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Clearly, if we could agree on what the Kingdom of God on earth would look like, we could work towards it. Christians, notoriously, do not agree on any such thing, except in the largest and loosest generalities. Peace on earth, yeah, but the moment we try to deal with, oh, Jerusalem, or immigrants, it all falls apart.
We cannot sing from the same page. And so harmony is impossible.

Yes, the nub of the problem [Tear]
Well CAN we bomb SCIS or NOT?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
So what does it mean to try to create the Kingdom here on earth?

I think the clue is in the Lord's Prayer itself where it say, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." We can only assist the coming of the kingdom by doing His will, which is to love one another. This also serves as a reminder of just how Jewish is the Lord's Prayer. The idea of personal salvation was quite meaningless in Jesus' culture. All we can ever do is seek to do God's will in the present moment. That is our part in bringing His kingdom to earth.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Agree with all of the above, with the exception of the last para-- I think the Kingdom of God is political. I think it is breaking down political systems of violence, oppression and marginalization (which of course are not limited to any single political party or system). But, again, the weapons of the Spirit are not the weapons of this world. So we don't demonstrate the Kingdom of God in the political realm through manipulation and coercion-- e.g. legislating morality. We demonstrate the Kingdom of God thru the means of the Kingdom. See para 1.

Yes, that was what I was thinking when I said "political arrangement"—trying to create a political entity that seeks to impose a Kingdom of God through legislation, etc. A theocracy of some kind, in other words. But I definitely agree that participating in the Kingdom has political implications.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
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# 13472

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Jesus is himself the basileia, come in the flesh.

We extend that kingdom to others through acts of disinterested love, when we do good for others without the expectation of getting something back. An act as small as going without a caramel frappucino from Starbucks in order to get an indigent person some food has profound consequences.

Working for social reform and the like is fine, but it doesn't bring the kingdom of God any nearer.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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