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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: When we were young - history written by the survivors
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I recently saw one of those internet memes that says things like "I remember when:
We went out to play and came in when it got dark
We played outside not online
We went on our bikes without cycle helmets, and we were fine.
We went to school to learn, and if we didn't we didn't sit down for a few hours.
That sort of thing. I actually responded to this one, because it was the weekend.
The problem is that yes, we played on our bikes without helmets. We were fine, because we are here to tell the tale. Others are not because they are dead.
We played outside without a problem. Others played outside and cannot tell the trauma they suffered because they are dead. Their parents cannot tell the trauma they suffered because it is too painful.
I watch the Educating programs and wish that there had been the pastoral concern when I was at school, because I might have had treatment for my mental health problems ( which were blindingly apparent, but not the concern of the school).
Of course, it is fine for those who survived. We can look back and say we didn't need all of this. But that ignores the need of those families torn apart by avoidable tragedy. It is revisionist, and dangerous, because it implies that those who need help and support are weak.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
We played outside not online
And when we got flashed by dirty old men, it was in a nice green park, not a sleazy chat room!
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
We're expecting our first child in about a month, and while we not had a lot of people pushing their views about the "right" way to do birth, there are a few who bemoan how medicalised birth is, and say people got on fine having children for thousands of years without doctors. To which my response is: yes, and what were the maternal and infant mortality rates?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
And when we got flashed by dirty old men, it was in a nice green park,
And we just laughed at them, and thought nothing of it.
Real child abuse took place, mostly, in the family and we never knew about it, or if we did, it was none of our business. Or our parents' business, come to that. They tut tutted and that was it.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah yes, the golden age of domestic violence with NEVER a call to the police, what was the point? The ambulance yes. The violence of teachers. That never did us any harm did it? Self harm? HAH! Kid's stuff. Talking to a Bosnia vet last night, PTSD? Dah! Denial is the only way.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
OK, folks, but let's not get smug or assume that our precautionary contemporary world has got all the answers. Remember that in 40 years time people might look at some of the things we're doing now with horror and amazement.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I think that a significant factor influencing our memories is the sheer numbers of children in the 1940s-1970s era.
When you have five, seven or ten children it is harder to keep track of them. Plus, you come to count on them looking after each other.
My own neighborhood in the 1950s and 60s had children my age in every single house on the street, and the next street, and the next. Gathering for spontaneous play was as easy as walking out the door. We spent as much time in other people's homes as we did in our own.
The lack of adult supervision did mean that there were bullies, there was the settling of scores in our own ways, getting hurt, and getting into trouble. And years later we find out that some people we knew were sexually abused, and that some of the household situations were not as happy as we had imagined.
One feature of having many children and few adults is that adult-child interactions were largely confined to management. Adults did not usually speak to you except to correct what you were doing.
So it is a great point that the good memories are recounted by the survivors. Personally I never experienced or witnessed anything especially traumatic.
Now that people where I live have fewer children, the opportunities for masses of them interacting spontaneously without adult supervision are less. The amount of positive interaction between adults and children is greater.
I think that overall it is a better situation now, even though, having survived it, it was fun to freely navigate the world without adults knowing where we were or what we were doing.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
OK, folks, but let's not get smug or assume that our precautionary contemporary world has got all the answers. Remember that in 40 years time people might look at some of the things we're doing now with horror and amazement.
As one who has been around quite a long time, has experienced this but whose prospect of being around in 2056 is as good as zero, I can tell you now that you will not be able to predict what they will be. There are trends that look significant now that will fizzle out. There will be ideas that become big, that you won't imagine or would regard as daft if somebody were to tell you now what they were.
I was already an adult, a parent in fact, 40 years ago. If we're talking about childhood, that's further back. We were warned about gropers etc. but there wasn't the impression there is now that there were that many of them. We were certainly warned repeatedly about the dangers of being run over, but nobody imagined there would ever be so much traffic that children couldn't play in the streets. Nor did it seem to have occurred to anyone that if people had cars and could go everywhere in them, they would need to be able to park them when they got there.
Parents feared you might get polio which was still quite prevalent, and consumption which was rapidly declining. The biggest fear, though, was that there would be another war like the one that had just finished, but worse, particularly after 1954.
There's a lot that hasn't been progress, but one surprising thing which I think has been is this. There was a sort of deep seated assumption in those days not just among teachers but even among parents, that all children were much the same. If you were a boy you wore a grey shirt, shorts held up with a snake buckle and long socks. If you were a girl, you wore a dress with smocking. Either way, you chanted your tables in unison. Everyone's aspiration, parents, teachers, you, was that you should be as like everyone else as you could be.
I don't know whether this was something engendered by universal service in two big wars or just a coping mechanism in many, many centuries when life was hard. But I don't think that's as endemic now. I think we probably give too much place to self-expression and individuality, but the culture of those days definitely was too far over on the be-like-everyone-else scale.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Thanks for your interesting post Enoch.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One good thing that has been lost, however, is the opportunity for kids to invent their own games and make up their own rules.
Nowadays adults organize children's games, and the children follow the rules the adults teach them.
I attended a very small elementary school (three grades in each room). During recess, it would have been impossible to find enough kids to play softball if we had followed the standard rules. We adjusted the rules to accommodate the individuals.
The good athletes got three strikes; the average ones got ten strikes; people who were really bad got unlimited strikes. They could be put out only by hitting the ball into fair territory and failing to make it to first base in time.
This system did not produce any great athletes, but it did produce kids who understood the value of making concessions to get as much as possible of what they wanted. This was a very valuable skill.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I wouldn't advocate a wholesale return to the days of my childhood, but I am having a great time pitching LL and cousins outside on Saturdays and leaving them to make up their own activities. They are confined to the large yard (front and back) because of modern traffic, which is nasty around here, and I do of course spy on them through the windows etc. to be sure nobody's managed to find new and exciting uses for the giant bamboo poles and various bodily orifices--but appeals for adult direction ("What should we do?") are meant with an unsympathetic "you figure it out," and a nod toward the door.
This has now turned into the kids' favorite time of the week. I was amused to see them acting out Minecraft scenarios with bamboo "pickaxes" and the like. I never expected to find anything that would be a sufficiently strong draw to get them away from Minecraft on computer.
And it's doing wonders for their socialization as they have to work out minor arguments etc. without an adult around (they think) to appeal to.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I do think some kids today are wrapped in cotton wool and put on a lead. that is also not good. I am not necessarily arguing that we are better today than we were. It is more that there are reasons why things have changed, and in many cases these are good reasons for child safety.
Maybe it is unfortunate that we need to, but that is a different question.
I live opposite a park with a kids playground. The kids there do have fun, play their own games, get messy (occasionally) and scratched. With all the other stuff around, there are often kids climbing the trees too.
OK, the parents often drive them here in 4x4s, but they do get some interaction and outdoor mess. And they have fun. Meanwhile my son is upstairs in his room on the web also having fun.
I suppose life is different now. In some ways better, in some probably not. But we are where we are for reasons, good reasons, and wishing we were somewhere else seems perverse. As AreThoseMyFeet said (congratulations, BTW) less children and mothers die now. Surely that is a good thing.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suppose life is different now. In some ways better, in some probably not. But we are where we are for reasons, good reasons, and wishing we were somewhere else seems perverse.
Couldn't that argument be used by any society to justify its current values though? All societies do things for a mixture of rational and irrational reasons, and I don't see why ours should be any different.
FWIW my instinct is that we've become overly worried about the risk strangers pose to young children, and we've paid a high price in terms of heightened fear, suspicion of adults and loss of freedom and unstructured outdoor activity. I'm happy to be proved wrong on this though, and accept that many social changes are entirely positive.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Hiro's Leap - actually, yes, I think you are right. I wasn't meaning to say that we now have it right. I think we don't, that we keep our children away from the world too much. As you say, we make it a scarier place than it actually is.
I suppose I would rather we (as a whole, including myself) listened to our children, and believed them more, and equipped them to tackle the world, not run away from it.
But I don't want us to go back to a time that is seen as so much better by those who survived it and did well out of it. I don't think someone as damaged as I was would get through most schools without being identified and treated properly.
And yes, I hated my school time, because I varied between being depressed and being suicidally depressed. I would not want anyone to go through that. I don't think it is a positive way to get through school.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I don't think someone as damaged as I was would get through most schools without being identified and treated properly.
Good to hear - sounds like you had a horrible time.
[SEMI-TANGENT]
Not sure if this was part of the issue for you, but I think that one of the most devastating social problems is bullying. I've got friends who were badly bullied at school, and even 30 years later the damage hasn't fully healed.
Society nowadays is far better at dealing with some forms of bullying - e.g. from homophobia. I don't know if we're much better at dealing with the problem overall, or if bullies just find new targets. I don't think we acknowledge the impact enough though.
[/SEMI-TANGENT]
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
It also should not be forgotten that in time past, especially during the 60s and 70s, sexual molestation and abuse of minors was rife (in all contexts, religious or secular). Thankfully, we have come quite a ways from the typical responses of this earlier era of trivializing incidents and cultures of silence, and have a much better understanding of the long-term, psychological trauma borne by victims of such exploitation.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But does it happen significantly less? Are things significantly better? Quite possibly, but only time will tell.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Yes re bullying. The approach seemed to be that children should sort it all out themselves. It was different when the teachers were the source of the violence. The use of corporal punishment was liberal.
The level of sexual abuse - it is not clear to me if the levels are the same as today's, more, or less. Certainly we did not have pornography, and sexual practices did not include some behaviour that seems de rigueur today according to what people learn from pornography (in the sense of expected and pretty much required).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
...I think that one of the most devastating social problems is bullying. I've got friends who were badly bullied at school, and even 30 years later the damage hasn't fully healed.
I think it was better when I was in elementary school in the 1940s. The teachers considered it part of their job to teach us ethics, including how we should treat each other.
There was some teasing, but it didn't last long. Sometimes one kid would get picked on, but it usually lasted only through one recess, or at worst one day. I was picked on that way, and I picked on others. This was before the days of the theory that if a child is mistreated by other children, it's his fault. He is supposed to adjust to the group no matter what his interests are or what the other kids are up to.
One of my daughters had to start wearing contact lenses when she was nine years old. They made her eyes extremely light-sensitive, and she had to wear very dark glasses outdoors. She was teased unmercifully. I asked the guidance counselor to help, and she said the child must learn to handle her problems by herself.
I am glad people are becoming aware of the bad effects of bullying. I think it was better, though, when the teachers simply told us, "You don't treat people that way."
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Yes re bullying. The approach seemed to be that children should sort it all out themselves. It was different when the teachers were the source of the violence. The use of corporal punishment was liberal.
The level of sexual abuse - it is not clear to me if the levels are the same as today's, more, or less. Certainly we did not have pornography, and sexual practices did not include some behaviour that seems de rigueur today according to what people learn from pornography (in the sense of expected and pretty much required).
And one does hear that sexual abuse or coercion of children/young people by their peers (especially of girls by boys) is now something of a problem in places, and often attributed to the widespread availability of pornography.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think it was better when I was in elementary school in the 1940s. The teachers considered it part of their job to teach us ethics, including how we should treat each other.
One difficulty with this discussion is how do we know if our childhood experiences were typical? There was a fair bit of bullying at my school in the 1980s, but I have a friend who went to a (superficially) very similar school in the same year and there was almost none. So whose school was more representative of the period? Maybe both were pretty decent, and most others were worse. How far can I generalise? And this is before I start to wonder if my recollections themselves are accurate.
I think there's a big temptation to either be nostalgic for the past, or to discount previous eras as backwards and ignorant based on our own preconceptions. We're trapped in our limited frame of reference, and it makes it very hard to assess the past objectively.
(This isn't aimed at you Moo btw.)
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
It also should not be forgotten that in time past, especially during the 60s and 70s, sexual molestation and abuse of minors was rife (in all contexts, religious or secular). Thankfully, we have come quite a ways from the typical responses of this earlier era of trivializing incidents and cultures of silence, and have a much better understanding of the long-term, psychological trauma borne by victims of such exploitation.
Are you speaking from experience or from hearsay? Perhaps I was just fortunate. For all that it has become part of the mythology of how things were, I only heard of two instances in my entire childhood. Neither was in a school, religious or secular institution or family.
[ 02. May 2016, 22:38: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
It also should not be forgotten that in time past, especially during the 60s and 70s, sexual molestation and abuse of minors was rife (in all contexts, religious or secular). Thankfully, we have come quite a ways from the typical responses of this earlier era of trivializing incidents and cultures of silence, and have a much better understanding of the long-term, psychological trauma borne by victims of such exploitation.
Are you speaking from experience or from hearsay? Perhaps I was just fortunate. For all that it has become part of the mythology of how things were, I only heard of two instances in my entire childhood. Neither was in a school, religious or secular institution or family.
I did not mean to imply that sexual abuse was universal or ubiquitous. There were, of course, certain environments conducive to a greater prevalence of such incidents (boarding schools, summer camps, Boy Scout troops, etc.). Society both lacked general awareness of the issue and established avenues for dealing with abuse when it occurred. In a great many cases, only now is the truth coming out as victims long-grown are beginning to speak out. These attitudes became especially toxic once mixed with the flagrant permissiveness and promiscuity of the 60s and 70s (see, e.g., Jimmy Savile).
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
I posted on Facebook two photos of my father and his twin siblings. One was taken in the late 1920s, the other in the 1980s. This was for my American cousins so they could see some of the old photos I have.
What irked me was all the sentimental comments, not from my cousins, about how much simpler life was back then.
By the time the first photo was taken, my grandfather had abandoned the family and was living in a home for soldiers with shellshock, my father had spent a year in hospital with a tubercular ulcer on his leg, my grandmother was giving the children daily hidings, and they were trying to live on the smell of an oily rag that was the earnings of a piano teacher in a small rural town.
None of that is simple, nor is it fun. Dad and his brother and sister lived with the aftermath of that upbringing all their lives. The thing that got Dad and his sister through was music, my uncle, engines (they lived on the main trunk line).
[ 03. May 2016, 04:09: Message edited by: Arabella Purity Winterbottom ]
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think it was better when I was in elementary school in the 1940s. The teachers considered it part of their job to teach us ethics, including how we should treat each other.
One difficulty with this discussion is how do we know if our childhood experiences were typical? There was a fair bit of bullying at my school in the 1980s, but I have a friend who went to a (superficially) very similar school in the same year and there was almost none. So whose school was more representative of the period? Maybe both were pretty decent, and most others were worse. How far can I generalise? And this is before I start to wonder if my recollections themselves are accurate.
I think there's a big temptation to either be nostalgic for the past, or to discount previous eras as backwards and ignorant based on our own preconceptions. We're trapped in our limited frame of reference, and it makes it very hard to assess the past objectively.
(This isn't aimed at you Moo btw.)
I was in primary (elementary) school in the 1980s and I was repeatedly bullied, over long periods of time, by a number of different individuals. I look back on it now, and I think, the teachers must have known. There's no way they couldn't have. And they opted to do nothing. So as a small child, you come to this gradual realisation that literally nobody is on your side. The adults won't do anything - which the bullies take as permission to continue. There may be other children who don't join in, but they're not going to stick their necks out for you - and why would they, having observed both what you're experiencing, and the fact that no-one would rescue them from the situation. As someone upthread said, it stays with your for many years afterwards. And honestly, I doubt it's really any better now. There's noise about it now. Schools have 'policies' and 'programmes' in place with regard to bullying now. But I doubt it looks or feels any different at all for joe or jane not-quite-average-enough, who is the latest target of the mob.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
anoesis - I hear you. I was bullied similarly. The bullying was known about but my bully wasn't taken care of as no-one wanted to upset their confidence. I was at a small school so these things were obvious. The problems associated linger on for me and I'm typically afraid of my shadow.
I don't know if better or worse, but when I was a kid, if my mom was chatting to a friend, I was so not allowed to interrupt until given permission. Now, when I talk to my friends, if their kids want to talk, I'm told to be quiet so Tarquin can have his say. I always think that is a shame but that's my POV. I don't have kids, I don't know if things are better or worse, I just think a different set of issues.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And one does hear that sexual abuse or coercion of children/young people by their peers (especially of girls by boys) is now something of a problem in places, and often attributed to the widespread availability of pornography.
I witnessed a number of sexual assaults during my school days. It wasn't taken seriously by anyone.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And one does hear that sexual abuse or coercion of children/young people by their peers (especially of girls by boys) is now something of a problem in places, and often attributed to the widespread availability of pornography.
Yes, mostly by aged prudes citing biased studies using questionable "research".
Sexual abuse/assault has always been a problem. But it has not always been reported and seriously addressed.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I don't know. It seems to be a concern that is being raised by responsible educators, especially those who are concerned about the effect on the autonmoy and status of girls and women. It may be that although, as you and others have said, peer-on-peer sexual abuse has always happened, t this is different in kind and perhaps extent. I don't think it should be dismissed lightly: imagine, for example, what would happen if you had a number of young men getting behind the wheels of cars on the public roads with an image of what it means to drive a car that had been substantially shaped by watching Top Gear and with little proper driver education to counter that.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I don't think either of us are arguing for a light dismissal of sexual abuse, rather that we dismiss the rosy record of the past as possible under-reporting.
It is an interesting fact though that we regard recently-evolved badness as more in need of urgent action than stable badness. I know I have that tendency myself, but there's no logical reason why it should be any worse that peer-on-peer sexual abuse rates have gone up compared with ongoing high levels of sexual abuse.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh, I'm not suggesting that it is necessarily any worse- just that it isn't necessarily any better nowadays- maybe just different. Fewer scoutmasters with wandering hands, perhaps; but perhaps more 14 year old girls feeling they have to perform fellatio on their boyfriends. I think we often only really understand these things in retrospect.
[ 03. May 2016, 08:49: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You are comparing two different things. One is very definitely coercive abuse and the other is not so definite.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think we need to know a bit more about it. I suspect there is a spectrum of coercion in both cases. But my suggestion is that social, technical, and cultural changes have altered the conditions under which abuse can take place- the perhaps excessive deference to authority figures of the 1950s/60s, the rather naive view of sexual expression as generally a pretty unmitigated good thing that some people held in the 70s, the acceptance and more importantly easy electronic availability of very explicit pornography today- all created different opportunities and constraints. It seems to me to be naive and hubristic to point to, say, the kind of things that some schoolmasters used to do fifty years ago, or to the mores of the era that allowed people like Jimmy Savile and Stuart Hall to flourish, and say 'thank goodness things are better than that today'. In some respects they may well be better: but we need to look out for others in which they are not.
[ 03. May 2016, 09:07: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Sex between an adult and a child is always abuse and sex between teens might or might not be.
The prevalence of teen sex is not an indication that things are as bad, just different.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
He that hath ears, let him hear. Going to cut my losses and do something more fruitful than try to discuss this, or pretty much anything else, with you.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
From the OP:
quote:
We went on our bikes without cycle helmets, and we were fine.
I went out on my bike circa 1972 without a cycle helmet and ended up in A&E for a quick fix, then a couple of follow up outpatient apointments, with surgery three years later. Nothing major - perhaps a week off school in total? But still, not something I'd want to risk my own kids experiencing. Hence my insistence that they never went out on their bikes without helmets.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think we often only really understand these things in retrospect.
If at all.
#1. It's very hard to assess the values our own culture because we're so close.
#2. It's very hard to assess past cultures because our view of them is clouded by forgetfulness, and filtered through our current values (see point #1).
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But my suggestion is that social, technical, and cultural changes have altered the conditions under which abuse can take place
Absolutely, but I think it's even broader than that: social, technological and cultural changes alter our entire concept of abuse, and morality in general.
One example is our attitudes towards premarital sex. If you live in a society with lots of resources to support children, a welfare system, low mortality for women giving birth, effective treatments for STDs, and (vitally) cheap effective contraception, then you can afford to be fairly chill about premarital sex. If you have none of those things then you can't. Both societies will tend to consider the other immoral, but both are shaped by pragmatic concerns.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I did not mean to imply that sexual abuse was universal or ubiquitous. There were, of course, certain environments conducive to a greater prevalence of such incidents (boarding schools, summer camps, Boy Scout troops, etc.). Society both lacked general awareness of the issue and established avenues for dealing with abuse when it occurred. In a great many cases, only now is the truth coming out as victims long-grown are beginning to speak out. These attitudes became especially toxic once mixed with the flagrant permissiveness and promiscuity of the 60s and 70s (see, e.g., Jimmy Savile).
You haven't answered a key part of my question, which was whether you were speaking from experience or hearsay.
There was a time lag about this. For a lot of us becoming young adults then, the sixties were still quite old fashioned. Outside the West End of London, they weren't as luridly permissive as modern mythology would assume. It was well into the seventies before the big changes in social mores really leached out into ordinary peoples' live. And when I was talking about childhood, that's really the fifties world anyway.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
... One example is our attitudes towards premarital sex. If you live in a society with lots of resources to support children, a welfare system, low mortality for women giving birth, effective treatments for STDs, and (vitally) cheap effective contraception, then you can afford to be fairly chill about premarital sex. If you have none of those things then you can't. Both societies will tend to consider the other immoral, but both are shaped by pragmatic concerns.
Sorry. How can any society consider another society that is less lax than it is and discourages premarital sex 'immoral'? That really would be calling black, white.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
One difficulty with this discussion is how do we know if our childhood experiences were typical? There was a fair bit of bullying at my school in the 1980s, but I have a friend who went to a (superficially) very similar school in the same year and there was almost none. So whose school was more representative of the period?
Yes, it is very hard to know.
Sometimes people have experiences with several different schools and can compare the atmospheres, which are often quite different.
A few have the chance to compare what they experienced in different countries. I don't know how different an English childhood is from an American one.
I lived in West Africa for two years in the 1970s and taught in schools in small rural villages. I was very struck, as you would expect, by how different their social experience was from my own. In some ways African teens' live were quite idyllic, but in other ways much worse than what I grew up with. It certainly taught me what "cultural difference" meant, although in most ways kids are kids the world over.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Sorry. How can any society consider another society that is less lax than it is and discourages premarital sex 'immoral'? That really would be calling black, white.
We call the less lax society oppressive, judgemental and repressed. We say it controls people's sexuality. What we mean is "they are wrong and immoral; we are right and good".
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I was a child in the 80s. I have many happy memories of my friends and I running wild over the hills, fields and woods near our homes, roaming for miles and spending whole days without any adult interaction at all (barring the occasional need to escape an irate farmer).
We used to ride bikes without any protective gear, and yes we used to fall off them and get hurt. We used to climb trees, and occasionally fall out. We'd catch cold from rolling around in the mud or snow, or get sunburnt from being out in the sun too long. And every one of those pains, every one of those injuries, every bit of blood spilt or skin torn was a lesson we learned a damn sight better than the dozens of times our parents had tried to get us to learn it from them while sat on the nice, safe, comfortable sofa back home.
But. I also remember the kid who was out playing unsupervised and ended up under a lorry. I remember the teacher who was quietly removed from the school amid rumours (only half-understood) of him touching another boy. I remember a game one of the other lads introduced to the playground when we were about 7, the aim of which was to grab someone else's penis and pull it - and only now, as I read this thread, am I wondering where in the hell a 7-year-old gets that kind of idea.
I think we've gone too far in protecting our children, and I wish society could get back to a place where parents feel able to let their kids play unsupervised like I used to. But that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't have gone any distance at all in protecting them. Bike helmets are not an unreasonable imposition, for example. And while frenzied witch-hunts are not the answer, being far more aware of abuse and willing to challenge and prevent it at all times is a very good thing indeed.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
When I was a kid in the late 60s and early 70s, we did have a fair amount of freedom. However, parents still had their own specific fears, and these were shaped by their own upbringing and experiences. In my neighborhood there was a "woods"--a fairly wide steep wooded area, with a river at the bottom. the area on both sides was heavily developed with single family homes, and the Beltway (major highway) crossed over this wooded area on a tall bridge (tall from the river.. from the road you barely knew you were on a bridge at all). We also had a shopping area at a crossroad of two fairly large roads within walking distance.
Becasue of their own childhood experiences, most of my friends parents allowed them to go to the shopping center un-supervised at a younger age than I was allowed to do so. Conversely, I was allowed free range in the woods long before my friends were allowed to do so. Of course, in reality, we all did both, but the parental fears were very obviously different. in my mother's eyes, danger lurked in populated areas..cars could run you over, strangers were there and could do things to you, whereas the woods were relatively safe. for other parents, the woods were scary and empty.. who knows what lurked there. the shopping are was full of other adults, and thus assumed to be safe for kids.
Interestingly, I had one experience as a child (older by then, so allowed to go to the town). There was a library in the shopping center, and as an avid reader I was a frequent visitor. Once I was in the "kids" section of the library, when I saw an older man sitting there, with his legs spread wide, wearing very loose shorts.. and displaying everything he had for anyone to see (particularly anyone with a lower eye-level. In retrospect of course it's obvious that this was entirely deliberate. at the time I sensed something was not quite right about it, but still though it most likely that he didn't realize that I could see his junk, and was too embarrassed to tell him. I didn't report him to anyone, because, well, I didn't think he was doing something on purpose (I think it crossed my mind that he might be, but it seemed so preposterous to me, that I rejected the idea).
A story from my kids younger days: my son had a friend, who was the kid of kid most parents do not want their child to associate with. He was one of my cub-scouts, so saw him at his best, but even so I knew there was something not quite right. He would bring very racy
CDs to school to share with the other boys, he told me he would stay up all night playing video games (the kind I wouldn't let my kid even look at at that age). He generally was un-monitored at home in terms of the media he was exposed to. Anyhow, on one occasion his mother brought him over for a "play date" with my son. while she and I were chatting, the boys ran off to play. After a few minutes my son came over to ask if they could go to the park. this park is in a gated neighborhood, within shouting distance of my house, and no need to cross any streets (walk along a bike-lane on a residential road to get to the park). The mother was HORRIFIED that I would let my son go to this park unsupervised. They were, I think, 8 years old at the time. I'd been letting him go there since he was.. well, not sure. probably 5 or so. This mom, who let her kid to all sorts of things most people would never allow a kid that age to do, was horrified by the thought of a park without supervision. Apparently, as long as he was in her house, he was safe (no matter what he was exposed to online).
I think there were permissive parents and restrictive parents always, and the things parents fear are shaped not by real risks, but by familiarity. if you are familiar with something, it's less scary, and thus you are more willing to allow your child to do it. we are now aware of many dangers that we didn't really think about in the past.. the dangers are no grater than they were, but we fear them because we know about them (and conversely, we are less familiar with the places where we encounter the dangers). if we spent relatively little time in the woods as kids, then hear about the dangers of being in the woods, we tend to feel those risks are higher than they really are. if we hear abut the dangers of something we are familiar with, we tend to minimize those threats (oh, I did that and nothing bad happened).
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I remember that we Could.Not.Leave.The.Neighborhood, "the neighborhood" being defined by certain streets that were its boundaries.
I remember the first day I dared to venture outside the boundaries -- I rode my bike downtown and visited the city's leading department store. Wouldn't you know it -- one of my relatives was there and, of course, told my mother all about having encountered me.
While there, I had need of the facilities. I thought it odd that so many men felt the urge to use the men's room at the same time I did. Only much, much later did I come to realize that the men's room in that particular department store was the place where gay men went for a "quickie".
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
but perhaps more 14 year old girls feeling they have to perform fellatio on their boyfriends. I think we often only really understand these things in retrospect.
I have heard a fair few worried parents talking about this. There are cultural memes of the time and teenage oral sex does seem to be one of ours. Colleagues in community health care have noted a number of teenage girls attending for STD screens who have clearly been pressured into doing something they felt uncomfortable about, and very distressed about the boy bragging to the rest of the school.
On the other hand I don't think one can talk about a spectrum of coercion regarding sex between adults and children without taking great care to point out that "absence of coercion" or "little coercion" aren't going to be acceptable ways of talking about child abuse. Once one has determined that one is dealing with a minor who cannot give consent then degrees of coercion become an irrelevant matter.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I think that's a better way of putting it. What I suppose I had in mind was the spectrum between, at one extreme, direct and violent physical coercion, and at the other, a child or young person responding willingly to an older person's sexual overtures, on the basis of an imbalance of experience, maturity, and indeed perhaps covert power which is to the advantage of the older person. I'd say that the latter is less coercive- but not the less abusive. Which suggests, as you say, that coercion as such is not really relevant here.
[ 03. May 2016, 14:32: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
From the OP:
quote:
We went on our bikes without cycle helmets, and we were fine.
I went out on my bike circa 1972 without a cycle helmet and ended up in A&E for a quick fix, then a couple of follow up outpatient apointments, with surgery three years later. Nothing major - perhaps a week off school in total? But still, not something I'd want to risk my own kids experiencing. Hence my insistence that they never went out on their bikes without helmets.
This is one of those things where what seems to be the wisest decision is more complicated. Where safety combines with other factors. Cycle helmets, encouragement to wear them and in some places, laws, have made the perception of cycling as a particularly dangerous activity. It reduces participation in cycling, and results in the usual query after car versus bicycle "was the cyclist wearing a helmet?". Automobiles create far more head injuries and is far more dangerous.
People who take risks while riding bicycles should wear helmets, e.g., aggressive 12 year olds. So what I want is that there is a proper discussion of who should be helmeted and when. This is an extension of the logical problem solving we want independent, nonanxious and confident children to use.
FWIW I don't recall cycling helmets being available in 1972.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Colleagues in community health care have noted a number of teenage girls attending for STD screens who have clearly been pressured into doing something they felt uncomfortable about, and very distressed about the boy bragging to the rest of the school.
I suspect that the public aspect (bragging, shaming, bullying) is usually more damaging than the sexual activity itself.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, I think that's a better way of putting it. What I suppose I had in mind was the spectrum between, at one extreme, direct and violent physical coercion,
Sexual encounters between teens run the gamut between completely willing and mutual to rape. In between there is quite a bit of ground. Psychological pressure is far more common than physical force. And in varying degrees. Not that this makes it OK, it does not. But it is far from the picture you appear paint.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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