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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why did God create the universe, and us?
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Was it so that he might become incarnate? Discuss.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The big theology answer to that question is, so that He could have other beings to love.
The small arty answer is, because if you want to tell a story you need characters, and a world for them to move around in. Suddenly you turn around and you are J.R.R. Tolkien with ten volumes of back history, a map the size of a gymnasium floor, and Elvish family trees that twine with the ubiquity of pumpkins.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
Because God is creative and likes making stuff, amazing stuff.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
People have come up with lots of silly answers:
God created the world as a toy.
God, all alone, created the world in the hope of evolving minds that would be worthwhile companions.
God created the world as a 7th grade science project that got a grade of 78%.
The Eskimos have a version I don't want to spell out.
It is the nature of God to create things (so there must be many more universes).
God created the world by mistake.
God simply claimed credit for a universe that already existed.
The universe is a thought in God's mind and we should hope God is not distracted.
As I said, silly.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Because of infinity, omniscience, eternity, and so we're free to be you and me.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I think le roc should post an empty comment to this thread so that we can read his sig.
And perhaps reflect on the idea of tzimtzum.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
If the Trinity is sufficient to itself then why create? No, I think creativity is one of God's core attributes. In Genesis it is almost the first thing we learn about Him -- that He's crazy creative, blitzing through making this and that one right after the other. Was it Agassiz who said that God must have an inordinate fondness for beetles? Such a multiplicity of beetles (and we haven't even gotten to bacteria which apparently form something like 99% of all life on this planet) shows that God is incredibly fecund.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
leo: No it isn't - big theology'says that the love in the Trinity is sufficient to itself and needs nothing more.
The beautiful thing about love is: it isn't about what the one who loves needs.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Why did God create the universe, and us?
Hey, we've all had boring Sunday afternoons that got out of hand.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Then big theology is bunk. As it's obvious that He's always done it like this.
[ 18. April 2016, 17:36: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Why did God create the universe, and us?
Hey, we've all had boring Sunday afternoons that got out of hand.
Quotes file.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
He was showing off.
I think the truth is that creativity is in the nature of God. He created because that is what he does.
Another way of putting the same thing is that the creation is simply the expression of God in our world. Gods existence is demonstrated by his creation.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Was it Agassiz who said that God must have an inordinate fondness for beetles? Such a multiplicity of beetles (and we haven't even gotten to bacteria which apparently form something like 99% of all life on this planet) shows that God is incredibly fecund.
Haldane. Of course, that's still a bit self-centered, assuming God has a special interest in life because we're life. It could even more convincingly be argued that God really likes vast stretches of near-total emptiness.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I wonder if those stretches of empty are not structurally necessary. There is so much empty, there must be a reason. As you know, Bob, the quantum physicists speculate that there may be an infinity of universes. Space-time may be something like foam, or something like cheese -- membranes of real stuff, separated by empty. All the empty may be necessary, to keep the bits separate from each other. Like the air in each little bubble of foam on the top of your beer.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Brenda Clough: quote:
Was it Agassiz who said that God must have an inordinate fondness for beetles? Such a multiplicity of beetles...
Terry Pratchett's creator god really worked hard on beetles. (Although he needed a little explaining on the advantages of sex in populating Discworld with life instead of creating multitudes of one-offs.) He considered the cockroach his masterpiece.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I wonder if those stretches of empty are not structurally necessary.
Begs the question of "necessary for what?" We tend to think along the lines of "necessary for us to exist", which presupposes that our own glorious existence is the whole point of the entire Universe. It's possible that the great empty stretches are the desired bits and sections that clogged up with matter and life are "structurally necessary" for the emptiness.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Terry Pratchett's creator god really worked hard on beetles. (Although he needed a little explaining on the advantages of sex in populating Discworld with life instead of creating multitudes of one-offs.) He considered the cockroach his masterpiece.
A similar take on Adam naming all the animals:
quote:
God: And here’s the next species, one I’m particularly proud of…
Adam: Beetle.
God: Excellent. Now here’s another…
Adam: Beetle.
God: No, you just named the last one “beetle”. This one is quite different — look at the pattern on the wing cases, and the shape of the antennae…
Adam: Beetle.
God: Well, OK, though they certainly look different to Me. Now, the next species is —
Adam: Beetle.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I wonder if those stretches of empty are not structurally necessary. There is so much empty, there must be a reason. As you know, Bob, the quantum physicists speculate that there may be an infinity of universes. Space-time may be something like foam, or something like cheese -- membranes of real stuff, separated by empty. All the empty may be necessary, to keep the bits separate from each other. Like the air in each little bubble of foam on the top of your beer.
If you follow kabbalah, in the great withdrawal of God (tzimtzum), space is left, so that stuff can occur, well, maybe more space. So absence becomes one of the hallmarks of God. Well, the atheists go to town on this one.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I wonder if those stretches of empty are not structurally necessary. There is so much empty, there must be a reason...
blank canvasses awaiting his next project?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If the Trinity is sufficient to itself then why create? No, I think creativity is one of God's core attributes.
The two ideas aren't incompatible. Indeed, the point of saying that the Trinity is sufficient is precisely to say that God creates.
Neoplatonists philosophers believed that the universe emanates from God/ the One by necessity. Early Christian theologians rejected that and believed that God creates the world freely. Thus, they rejected any kind of idea that God is subject to any sort of need to bring the world about.
(This is difficult to talk about because any attempt to express reasons for a free action imply that the reasons necessitate or compel the action. If we say God creates out of God's goodness the structure of our language makes that imply that God's goodness requires God to create, which is what we're trying not to say.)
The upshot is the creation is an expression of freedom, not of compulsion. An artist might say they 'had to' paint or write or compose or play, but the sense of 'had to' is not the same as that in which someone might be subject to compulsive disorder. You can't reduce the content of a work of art to the creator's psychological anxieties.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
"It is the nature of God to create things (so there must be many more universes)."
What's silly about that?
It's the only rationally faithful answer.
An understatement admittedly. There HAS to have been at least an infinite string of universes that have been transcended.
Or, as Haldane said, the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose: If there has only ever been this universe, what was immutable God doing forever?
Of course even if there were only this one, we cannot be unique by a factor of at least a trillion.
And neither can incarnations.
[ 18. April 2016, 21:38: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Clearly it is far far more -fun- for there to be a universe, than for there not to be a universe. God, being infinite, was going to do something with His infiniteness. Creation may not have been necessary, in the sense that breathing is necessary for us. But He was not going to pass this chance up, to do some keen stuff.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Why does an artist paint? Why does a novelist write? Why does a composer write a symphony? Why does a scientist peer down a microscope and marvel at the variety of bacteria in a milligram of soil?
Ultimately it's the same reason why a mountaineer scales a mountain. Because it's there. Because they can, because it's what they enjoy.
God creates because He wants to, because it's one of the ways He expresses who He is.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
But He was not going to pass this chance up, to do some keen stuff.
But being omniscient he already knew it how it was going to turn out. Personally I'd have stopped right there (except of course I'd know I wasn't going to).
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
God creates because He wants to, because it's one of the ways He expresses who He is.
For my money, he could have skipped over Boko Haram and ISIS.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Why does an artist paint? Why does a novelist write? Why does a composer write a symphony? Why does a scientist peer down a microscope and marvel at the variety of bacteria in a milligram of soil?
Ultimately it's the same reason why a mountaineer scales a mountain.
Naturally I'm going to use this as an excuse to quote Deathtrap:
quote:
Sidney Bruhl: Why make it anywhere? Why make it?
Clifford Anderson: Hahaha, because it's there, Sidney!
Sidney Bruhl: That's mountains, not plays! Plays are not there until some asshole writes them!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
que sais-je: But being omniscient he already knew it how it was going to turn out. Personally I'd have stopped right there
One way I like to fantasise about it is that perhaps there isn't a whole lot of difference between God thinking about creating the Universe, and Him actually doing it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
For my money, he could have skipped over Boko Haram and ISIS.
Well, we need to get to people like them before they get all evil, murdery and mean, and also more than a few presidents, generals and those who make their bombs and drones and shit. We need to poison their souls and minds with humanity, Jesus love, music, and flowers. Or something like that.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Then you wander over to the large question of why there is evil. And if you want stuff to happen in your creation, then you need conflict. We can't just all lie around on beached holding drinks with paper umbrellas in them, can we? If you want interest, excitement, thrills -- you might well leave room for evil.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I've long pondered this question and have come to think of it another way.
Would you rather exist or not exist?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If you want interest, excitement, thrills -- you might well leave room for evil.
I'd settle for reciting the Gloria during Lent, or wearing brown after sunset. We don't need gangs of young men kidnapping whole schools full of girls for rape and slave service, or mass beheadings of innocents.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The small arty answer is, because if you want to tell a story you need characters, and a world for them to move around in. Suddenly you turn around and you are J.R.R. Tolkien with ten volumes of back history, a map the size of a gymnasium floor, and Elvish family trees that twine with the ubiquity of pumpkins.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
God creates because He wants to, because it's one of the ways He expresses who He is.
For my money, he could have skipped over Boko Haram and ISIS.
Then He'd have had to skip their infinite chain of causation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Why does an artist paint? Why does a novelist write? Why does a composer write a symphony? Why does a scientist peer down a microscope and marvel at the variety of bacteria in a milligram of soil?
Ultimately it's the same reason why a mountaineer scales a mountain.
To deface something at the top with their initials? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Golden Key: To deface something at the top with their initials?
Proof of God being guilty of that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LOL. Or like Slartibartfast, in the H2G2 books, carving his name when he made the fiddly bits around the fjords.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Maybe God wanted to keep us as pets in His private zoo.
He had to create everything including all knowledge.
It didn't occur to Him that if he created these cute little critters in His own image they were bound to be curious, adventurous, creative and so on because that's what He was like.
Warning them to stay away from the tree of Knowledge was a last minute thought but it was too late, wasn't it.
* Can anyone remember the name of the figure of speech that uses two opposites to mean 'everything', ie everything is either good or evil therefore the knowledge of good and evil is the knowledge of everything.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
It’s kind of flippant, but I’ve always had a certain fondness for a position called voluntarism, which essentially sums up the answers to “Why did God…” (create the world, create us, redeem us, etc.) as “because he felt like it”.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Why does an artist paint? Why does a novelist write? Why does a composer write a symphony? Why does a scientist peer down a microscope and marvel at the variety of bacteria in a milligram of soil?
Ultimately it's the same reason why a mountaineer scales a mountain. Because it's there. Because they can, because it's what they enjoy.
God creates because He wants to, because it's one of the ways He expresses who He is.
I think it must be this.
But, as Schroedinger's cat says, there must be an element of 'showing off' too - or rather of sharing.
Artists, novelists, composers etc do so to share what they have created, not to hide it away.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
LOL. Or like Slartibartfast, in the H2G2 books, carving his name when he made the fiddly bits around the fjords.
Maybe he just had a bit of a bender and when he awoke had accidentally created all things. Since then has been trying to make things right and apologise.
[trying to make the literary reference without destroying part of "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" for anyone who hasn't read it]
[ 19. April 2016, 09:50: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
It’s kind of flippant, but I’ve always had a certain fondness for a position called voluntarism, which essentially sums up the answers to “Why did God…” (create the world, create us, redeem us, etc.) as “because he felt like it”.
As opposed to voluntourism which is the act of seeking pleasure under the guise of doing good.
Which, arguably, could also be appropriate.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The big theology answer to that question is, so that He could have other beings to love. <snip>
So if God needed these other things, was he in some way incomplete or imperfect?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
It’s kind of flippant, but I’ve always had a certain fondness for a position called voluntarism, which essentially sums up the answers to “Why did God…” (create the world, create us, redeem us, etc.) as “because he felt like it”.
As opposed to voluntourism which is the act of seeking pleasure under the guise of doing good.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying doing good. In fact, you will do it with a much better attitude if you love your voluntary work.
I'm sure God loves all her voluntary work ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There's nothing wrong with enjoying doing good. In fact, you will do it with a much better attitude if you love your voluntary work.
I'm sure God loves all her voluntary work
There is everything wrong with voluntourism. But I digress and apologise for it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
I think it's like being a writer.
You can write about all manner of things, make things up in your head, imagine what they look and feel and act like, but you have no idea of what it actually feels like to be any of those things until you ARE one of those things.
I think God got tired of making up shit and decided to actually create it in order to experience what it feels like to BE it.
LAFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The big theology answer to that question is, so that He could have other beings to love.
Just to expand on Brenda's answer given near the beginning of this thread:
God created because God is love and love has three qualities: - Love wishes to have something outside of itself to love.
- Love wishes to have a close reciprocal and voluntary connection with what it loves.
- Love wishes to make the object of its love happy.
So God created because He is love, and the path that creation has taken is a function of what love actually is, or of these three qualities of love.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And if you want stuff to happen in your creation, then you need conflict. We can't just all lie around on beached holding drinks with paper umbrellas in them, can we? If you want interest, excitement, thrills -- you might well leave room for evil.
A major problem with justifying evil in this way I feel is that it's a bit tough on the people who get cast as villains. (The Judas problem.) Calvinists obviously hold something of the sort. But to the rest of us it doesn't work as well. If we're free to not be evil, then it seems plausible that for each person it's better for them not to be evil than for them to be evil. From which it seems hard not to think that it's better for everyone not to be evil than for some people to be evil.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The big theology answer to that question is, so that He could have other beings to love. <snip>
So if God needed these other things, was he in some way incomplete or imperfect?
K.
Always.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The big theology answer to that question is, so that He could have other beings to love. <snip>
So if God needed these other things, was he in some way incomplete or imperfect?
K.
Always.
Yes.
Love is always the servant, as Jesus pointed out.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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