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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: C18th Lecturing and preaching
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I've been reading the early C18th records of my church (rural Church of Scotland i.e, Prebyterian). Most Sundays the records state that the minister lectured on Text A and preached on Text B. However, if the weather was bad, the minister was covering for a neighbouring minister, or if the minister was ill, and a neighbouring minister was covering for him, there was no lecture, but only preaching.
Text B varied, but the lectures appear to have worked systematically through the New Testament.
23 July 1721 - John I 1-6
6 Aug 1721 - John I 6-14
13 Aug 1721 - John I 14-24
By 11 Feb 1722 they had reached John 4. However, it wasn't until 28 Feb 1725 that they reached the end of John and started on Acts. The congregation were hearing lectures on John for almost four years!
What was the difference between a "lecture" on a text and "preaching" on a text? Why did "preaching" happen every week, but "lecturing" only when the weather was reasonable?
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I don't know. But page 19 of this book is interesting as it mentions the Lecture as distinct from the Sermon. The services must have been LONG!
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thank you! The only details of services recorded were the lecture text, the preaching text, and occasional requests for special collections (E.g. 7 Aug 1720 - In regard that George Macky was greatly tormented by ane Cancer and had spent his whole substance, the minister intimated from the pulpit (illegible) for his relief and exhorted the people to extend their charity. 14 Aug 1720 - Collected and delivered to George Macky £4 9 shillings)
How can anyone manage to lecture on John for almost four years? Was there a lot of repetition?
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A lecture is primarily teaching. A sermon is primarily proclamation of the gospel and exhortation to worship in response to the gospel.
It would be appropriate in a lecture to discuss the finer details of what the original Greek says, for example, whereas that level of detail would generally be inappropriate in a sermon (unless the message depends on an understanding of Greek which the translation fails to convey).
A sermon is an act of worship, an essential component within the worship of a church. A lecture is Christian teaching, desirable but of lesser importance than worship (the chief aim of humanity being to worship God, not to know about God). So, if circumstances required that one of those had to be dropped, then the lecture goes.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Was there any heating in Scottish churches in the eighteenth century. If there wasn't, that might explain why there was no second harangue in bad weather. Or would that have been regarded as excessive pandering to the weaknesses of the congregation's total depravity?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are times when I wonder if Scottish churches have heating in the 21st century!
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Would the minister write the lecture himself or were there books of lectures? Or would the minister prepare for a four-year long series of lectures on John by buying perhaps one or two books and drawing heavily on them?
Does anyone know if each church had its own pattern of lectures, or was this strictly chronological series the norm?
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
How can anyone manage to lecture on John for almost four years? Was there a lot of repetition?
Martyn Lloyd-Jones of Westminster Chapel managed to preach series of 185 sermons on John, 232 on Ephesians and 366 on Romans during his time at Westminster Chapel in the 1950s and 60s (mind you, he never quite got to the end of Romans!)
These were hour-long expository sermons, the Romans at least on Friday nights rather than as part of Sunday worship. Crowds flocked!
I heard him twice in later life, and he was certainly a good preacher - but long!
[ 13. May 2016, 07:07: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Interesting points, but I wonder if what we're seeing at the end of the 19 century is the same as that discussed in the 18 century.
It seems like the explosion in non-conformity in the 19 century was often associated with long rhetorical sermons by super-star preachers. I'm thinking these might have been a merging of the previous distinction between sermon and lecture, perhaps as congregations generally became better educated and more culturally conditioned to long expository teaching.
Also I wonder if the 18 century lectures had a specific focus, it'd be interesting to read what was said. I know that fiery lectures were printed in the period from 1800-50 and that these were often directed specifically at the ills of society, the "lies of the doctrine of the Church of Rome", on heresy and that kind of thing. Whether that would have been done from a springboard of a particular scriptural text, I have no idea.
I can imagine a long church service where the minister spoke at length about some socio-political event which was on his mind and later gave a "spiritual" sermon.
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arse
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
On my next trip to the archives I will count up the lectures on John. I'd guess over 100 but less than 185.
Enoch, I don't know about heating, but would guess that body heat kept the church quite cosy when full. But I really have no idea.
(Cross posted. The was in response to BT)
[ 13. May 2016, 07:54: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
How can anyone manage to lecture on John for almost four years? Was there a lot of repetition?
Martyn Lloyd-Jones of Westminster Chapel managed to preach series of 185 sermons on John, 232 on Ephesians and 366 on Romans during his time at Westminster Chapel in the 1950s and 60s (mind you, he never quite got to the end of Romans!)
These were hour-long expository sermons, the Romans at least on Friday nights rather than as part of Sunday worship. Crowds flocked!
I heard him twice in later life, and he was certainly a good preacher - but long!
I know he was a very famous preacher, but for the regular congregation rather than visitors, unless they were getting fed by someone else as well who preached on the rest of scripture, that is a very restricted diet.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am beginning to see where the American Sunday School Class originated. If you had a service with a lecture and a sermon, it would come quite naturally to want a break between them. So you get Lecture, tea break, Worship as a pattern. As the change of instruction pattern occurs the lecture changes to the class.
In England, it happened differently. The lecture was moved to a Wednesday night and became Bible Study and then onto house groups.
The Sunday School movement in England was originally educational, aimed at children who worked during the week. When the state took on education generally it changed to be a religious education offered to children, largely non-church on a Sunday afternoon. It has only slowly been integrated into the Sunday Worship meeting.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Just to say that I wasn't defending the good Doctor ... I agree, it seems to be a limited diet.
Of course, many other ministers emulated him and - not realising his specific Central London situation - only succeeded in frustrating their congregations!
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The Sunday School movement in England was originally educational, aimed at children who worked during the week. When the state took on education generally it changed to be a religious education offered to children, largely non-church on a Sunday afternoon. It has only slowly been integrated into the Sunday Worship meeting.
Jengie
Well yes.. although there wasn't considered to be much of a difference between what was educational and what was religious. Robert Raikes' original Sunday Schools in Gloucester involved learning to read and write from the bible and catechism. There various other Ragged schools in Gloucester from the 17 century, and it isn't entirely clear what was different or unique about the provision offered by Raikes. It might be that these other schools provided an education Monday-Friday, but I've never been able to establish if this was the case.
As the Grammar and "Public" schools developed into something more approaching a full education for the Upper and then the growing Middle classes into the 19 century, it seems to me that the Working classes were usually considered not to need educating, however from reading Government reports about child labour in the South Wales coal mines, attendance at Sunday School was considered a mark of their ethical and social education (and those lacking this provision were clearly considered particularly uncouth. I've not looked into other industrial areas, but I'm guessing something similar was going on.
Which in a roundabout way does come back to this topic - in that there was a strong motive amongst non-conformists to encourage education so that people could read the bible and believe for themselves.
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arse
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
NEQ, do you know
Religious Life in Seventeenth-Century Scotland by G D Henderson?
What is described in your post and the session records as "lecture" sounds to me the same as a minister "preaching upon his ordinary" . [Did I first read this in Annals of the Parish? -- can't remember, alas.]
Henderson has this at page 196:
Ordinary
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Not really America Piskie, that might be the terminology of the time, but systematic preaching through a book of the Bible taking as few or many verses as you can deal with at a time is standard Reformed expository preaching practice.My father did it when he was in pastoral ministry and I know of at least one more recent URC minister who has tried it (I am not sure whether he has stuck with it). The only thing that is slightly unusual is taking so long. More normally a preacher would probably tackle a gospel in less than a year.
To have this as well as a second sermon is what is unusual.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thank you. No, I don't know that book. I'm pretty sketchy on anything before the C19th, and appreciate being able to tap into the collective knowledge of the Ship! I intend to read all the Kirk Session records from 1713 on over the next year or so.
Educationally, there was a school in the parish, as per the Education Act 1696. The schoolmaster usually doubled as the Session Clerk; in 1720 the schoolmaster had been "a student in Philosophy" at Aberdeen University. In 1718 there was a complaint that the church payment to the schoolmaster for teaching poor scholars was overdue, so clearly education wasn't confined to the middle / upper classes, but was functioning more or less as per the intention of the First Book of Discipline.
[ 13. May 2016, 17:45: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
There is a book by Henry Grey Graham entitled 'The social Life of Scotland in the Eighteenth Century'
He deals extensively with church life,including in great detail religious worship of Presbyterians (and Episcopalians ) at that time.
I think Henry Grey Graham was also a minister.His brother was the minister of Maxton in the Scottish borders.
Do not confuse Henry Grey Graham, the author,
with his nephew of the same name, who became in 1917 titular bishop of Tipasa and auxiliary to the Catholic Archbishop of Saint Andrews and Edinburgh.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Thank you. No, I don't know that book. I'm pretty sketchy on anything before the C19th, and appreciate being able to tap into the collective knowledge of the Ship! I intend to read all the Kirk Session records from 1713 on over the next year or so.
Educationally, there was a school in the parish, as per the Education Act 1696. The schoolmaster usually doubled as the Session Clerk; in 1720 the schoolmaster had been "a student in Philosophy" at Aberdeen University. In 1718 there was a complaint that the church payment to the schoolmaster for teaching poor scholars was overdue, so clearly education wasn't confined to the middle / upper classes, but was functioning more or less as per the intention of the First Book of Discipline.
Yes, Scottish education was way above English at the time. Another source for information is Christ's Churches Purely Reformed by Philip Benedict. It will give information on the Education system in Reformed countries.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
// tangent// The parish schoolhouse is also mentioned in another regard - in 1721 when the body of a baby was discovered, the unmarried women of the parish had to convene at the schoolhouse, so that the Kirk Session could examine their breasts.... //end tangent//
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Not really America Piskie, that might be the terminology of the time, but systematic preaching through a book of the Bible taking as few or many verses as you can deal with at a time is standard Reformed expository preaching practice.My father did it when he was in pastoral ministry and I know of at least one more recent URC minister who has tried it (I am not sure whether he has stuck with it). The only thing that is slightly unusual is taking so long. More normally a preacher would probably tackle a gospel in less than a year.
To have this as well as a second sermon is what is unusual.
Jengie
I don't think it is unusual at all, at least in Angus/Kincardine/Aberdeenshire. The last parish registers I tried to decipher (silly family history) had in mid 17cent weekly entries like "Aprill 6,
Lect: Timothie 2:1
Sermond James 3.6
Afternoon Matthew 24 30.31.32.33 "
then the following week "Lect Timothie 2:2" and so on.
This I took to be in sort of conformity with the Directory, where there's a reading (lecture) which the reader may expound, although he's not meant to do so in a way that will curtail the sermon and prayers.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Even in the 20th century William Barclay, in his daily bible studies, could write several pages on each verse of John's gospel, chapter one – I didn't read any further.
Samuel Johnson, observing the strange and savage Scots in 1773, found them on the whole uneducated except that the minister was invariably a scholarly man, though he was very critical of the shortcomings of the Scottish universities. Though even then I believe that every effort was made to send promising youngsters to be educated.
[ 14. May 2016, 10:20: Message edited by: Galloping Granny ]
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
While it was written describing the period of the Napoleonic wars, an excellent source for daily kirk life is Donald Sage's Recollections of a Highland Parish, which I recall from his account of how a crofter tried to prevent his catechizing children in the north end of the parish. After some fisticuffs, the crofter was knocked to the ground and thereafter embraced the principles of the kirk. Then there was the occasion when a crowd of parishioners came to "assist the presbytery of Dornoch in selecting a minister," even if it took removing their neck-cloths and wielding their cudgels.
There are several entries about preaching, texts chosen, and length of sermon-- many were delivered in both English and Gaelic. There is also much description of the level of education in the Highlands, how he found spoonmakers whose Latin was the equal of any of the local clergy, and how villagers clubbed together to send the brightest of their (male) children off to university.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
To have this as well as a second sermon is what is unusual.
Where I served in West Africa (church founded on an interdenominational evangelical basis but with a bit of a Lutheran influence) it was quite common to have a second sermon preached at the Communion Table.
Fortunately this was only once a month as the weather was very hot, the benches backless and very hard, and the sermons (translated into at least one other language) lengthy. Perhaps we got divine Brownie points for sheer endurance.
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