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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What price Latin?
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Tibi Omnes
Apprentice
# 18608
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Posted
Are there liberal Catholics (or even schismatics) who use the Latin liturgy? All my experiences with extraordinary rite folks so far have been off-putting .
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...mirate come'l tempo vole
E si come la vita
fugge et la Morte n'e sovra le spalle.
--- Petrarch
Posts: 23 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Somewhere in this wiki article, it states that the Old Catholics(who I believe split off in protest against Infallibility) use the Tridentine Mass. Not sure how you go about finding a parish, I never enountered any of them in twenty odd years of Catholic observance.
[ 22. June 2016, 16:29: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Tibi Omnes, welcome to the Ship. I'm moving this thread to Ecclesiantics, our board to discuss liturgy and worship practices. You'll be able to carry on there.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Tibi Omnes
Apprentice
# 18608
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Somewhere in this wiki article, it states that the Old Catholics(who I believe split off in protest against Infallibility) use the Tridentine Mass. Not sure how you go about finding a parish, I never enountered any of them in twenty odd years of Catholic observance.
Dear Stetson, this was indeed the sort of group I hoped existed.They seem to have an outpost in NYC, which I will explore.
If your avatar is a Klee detail, as it appears, my compliments.
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...mirate come'l tempo vole
E si come la vita
fugge et la Morte n'e sovra le spalle.
--- Petrarch
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tibi Omnes:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Somewhere in this wiki article, it states that the Old Catholics(who I believe split off in protest against Infallibility) use the Tridentine Mass. Not sure how you go about finding a parish, I never enountered any of them in twenty odd years of Catholic observance.
Dear Stetson, this was indeed the sort of group I hoped existed.They seem to have an outpost in NYC, which I will explore.
If your avatar is a Klee detail, as it appears, my compliments.
Thanks for the comps on the avatar! Yes, Park Near L(ucerne), my favorite Klee. Kudos to the Ship for offering it in their gallery.
I can't make any hard claims about the liberalism of the Old Catholics, though wiki seems to indicate that they're more open-minded about certain social issues(eg. abortion) than the official RCC. And I seem to recall that Sinead O'Connor had some involvement with them, but I can't recall the details.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I don't know about American Old Catholics, but Dutch and German ones are in full communion with the Church of England. Their liturgy was based on the Tridentine Mass (though usually in the vernacular); I rather think that they have updated their liturgies somewhat in recent years.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
The Anglicans are in communion with the Old Catholic (Union of Utrecht) church. Other churches are available which use "Old" and "Catholic" in the title who are in communion with neither Rome or Utrecht.
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arse
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Near me there's a church run by the Society of Pius X. They seem to be into Latin... My experience of 'O' level means I have not, thus far, attended - I'm quite sure the phrases I remember 'Da aquam gallina...mensa (voc) - oh table!' - do not appear in OT or NT.
(is 'gallina' the dative plural of a feminine noun for 'hen'? I remember more grammar than I do vocabulary...).
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Tibi Omnes
Apprentice
# 18608
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Posted
It does seem that if I want to hear Tridentine Latin live, I'll have the company of people who consider me (and most of the world) most decidedly damned. Latin is one of those good things people tend to want for bad reasons.
There are also, one should note, many bad things people want for good reasons.
Makes one wonder about the moral weight of intent.
[ 22. June 2016, 18:59: Message edited by: Tibi Omnes ]
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...mirate come'l tempo vole
E si come la vita
fugge et la Morte n'e sovra le spalle.
--- Petrarch
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Da aquam gallina...(is 'gallina' the dative plural of a feminine noun for 'hen'?
Gallinis, dear.
There are two churches in the Phoenix area, one Roman Catholic and the other sede vacante Catholic (although they claim to be Roman Catholic -- perhaps they've reconciled), that use the Tridentine mass in Latin. See here and here.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Gallinis, dear.
Would you...decline it for me? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
This was my dilemma in my pre-Thames days. I belonged to Una Voce, at whose liturgies I had to tune out the homily, and Dignity, where I had to grit my teeth at everything else! I squared it by going Anglican: YMMV.
This is the church where I was confirmed. It uses the 1962 missal exclusively but ordains women and marries same-gender couples.
Thomas Day would seem to imply that the correlation between liturgical traditionalism and reactionary politics that you find in the SSPX (particularly in Europe) is itself a post-conciliar phenomenon:
quote:
Modern Catholics have sometimes forgotten that, as late as 1964, the "fun" High Mass with good choral music and maybe some congregational singing was considered "liberal" and "progressive." "Liberal Catholics" loved chant and lamented that they never heard it done properly or done at all in their parishes. "Liberal Catholics" were somewhat High Church in their preferences. A great example of this "High Church liberalism" was Father George Barry Ford, the controversial pastor of Corpus Christi Church in Manhattan ... Father Ford constantly infuriated his superiors down in the "powerhouse" behind St. Patrick's (then the location of the diocesan chancery) because of his liberal notions on ecumenism and his open exchange of ideas with the atheists at nearby Columbia University. It was considered only natural that someone with his dangerously liberal leanings would be in charge of the only parish for miles around which treated the church's liturgical heritage as if it were "serious fun." The bedrock, faith-of-our-fathers conservatives in the archdiocese did not know what was worse about this radical Father Ford: his too-friendly relations with Protestant ministers, university professors, and other dangerous types or his church, where the choir energetically sang Masses by Mozart and where the congregation sang. . . Gregorian chant!
[ 22. June 2016, 20:32: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know about American Old Catholics, but Dutch and German ones are in full communion with the Church of England. Their liturgy was based on the Tridentine Mass (though usually in the vernacular); I rather think that they have updated their liturgies somewhat in recent years.
The Anglican church in Prague is (or was) classed under Czech law as the English-speaking parish of the Old Catholic Church in the Czech Republic.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Welcome, TO. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) And salve, amicus Latinus. ("Hail, Latin friend"--though my Latin is very rusty.)
--It used to be that some regular RC churches had maybe one Latin mass a month. Maybe you could check with your local (arch)diocese?
-- Maybe the next best thing would be a video? And when I was setting up that search, there was an option for "Tridentine mass locations".
--Are you familiar with Taize prayer services? It wouldn't be a mass, but some of their songs are in Latin.
Bona fortuna (good luck).
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Also, in the interests of liturgical obscurity, it's worth observing there's such a thing as the Latin Book of Common Prayer, intended for use in (inter alia) Oxbridge chapels where Latin would, naturally, be 'understanded of the people'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I suppose it makes a difference whether TO is looking specifically for the "extraordinary form" or is attached to the Latin language in general (whether the EF, the Missal of Paul VI, or any of the various Latin BCPs).
As for the Union of Utrecht, they did indeed used to do this sort of thing - basically a vernacular Tridentine liturgy (not unlike how a few Anglican parishes use the English Missal). Despite their independence from Rome, however, my understanding is that they did partake in the ecumenical Liturgical Movement of the late 20th century and have become "Novus Ordo-ized" if you will. As noted above, the Anglo-American branch of Old Catholicism split from the Union and is not in communion with it or Canterbury (or even in some cases with each other). In North America, these bodies can run the full theological and liturgical spectrum, from sedevacantist to Gnostic.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
You're not really hearing Latin even then. You're usually hearing a bastardised Latin spoken as if it were Italian, which it ain't.
It's a bit like thinking you're hearing Old English if someone started Beowulf with "Wait! We Gar-deena in geer daygum theeod signinger thrim gefroonon" - in Cockney.
/Language geek
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're not really hearing Latin even then. You're usually hearing a bastardised Latin spoken as if it were Italian, which it ain't.
It's a bit like thinking you're hearing Old English if someone started Beowulf with "Wait! We Gar-deena in geer daygum theeod signinger thrim gefroonon" - in Cockney.
/Language geek
As a contra-geek, this has the stellar advantage of Latin being used as a live language. As such, different pronunciations are quite legitimate-- do we not accept even Queensland and Donegal English, let alone the incomprehensible argot of the Estuary?
An acquaintance of mine who has participated in Latin camp tells me that both Ciceronian and ecclesiastical are used by young Latinophones. She feels that Ciceronian is best for the classroom but ecclesiastical when hanging out with one's homies. She tells me that her two Jewish Latinophone friends (intense young wannabee archaeologists from NYC) use ecclesiastical among themselves, but fears that this is not a statistically valid sample (even assuming any statistically valid conclusion can be drawn from the perhaps 2000 Latin-speakers in the US-- she thinks that there are only 300 or so in Canada). She has a delightful tale of a furious teenager lecturing her ex-boyfriend in scathing Latin.
And, as any child can tell you, today's
news broadcast can give you a good picture of Latin as she is spoke.
I have no problem with Latin in services as long as it is "understood of the congregation" and helps people. Certain texts are frequently set in music where the Latin works best. However, I do not ever see it being more than perhaps one or two churches in a diocese with a university or two being able to use it without it being a potentially ludicrous curiosity.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I was greatly teased for my ecclesiastical accent in my freshman Latin class.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Tibi Omnes
Apprentice
# 18608
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Posted
I had a brief fling with Italianate pronunciation, which I do like the sound of, but when you read enough Latin names transliterated into Greek, as often one does in the NT, the correction is hard to ignore. Caesar with a kappa &c.
Going to mass is as troublesome as going to the opera, and in almost the same ways.Will ancient characters be presented in business suits or combat fatigues? Will the audience fidget and cough through the best bits?
I often wonder why I didn't stay home with a Berlioz Te Deum and coffee I can drink.
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...mirate come'l tempo vole
E si come la vita
fugge et la Morte n'e sovra le spalle.
--- Petrarch
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I was greatly teased for my ecclesiastical accent in my freshman Latin class.
On the other hand, back when I was getting my music degree, it was always the people who had studied classical Latin who had the hardest time with ecclesiastical Latin, which is what's used in (most) musical contexts.
Then there was German ecclesiastical Latin, where kyrie is pronounced KÜ-ree-eh.
[ 23. June 2016, 14:27: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I was greatly teased for my ecclesiastical accent in my freshman Latin class.
On the other hand, back when I was getting my music degree, it was always the people who had studied classical Latin who had the hardest time with ecclesiastical Latin. . . . Then there was German ecclesiastical Latin. . . .
I received my BA from (what was then) a Catholic college, where Latin was taught with the church pronunciation. But I received my MA from a secular university, where of course we used classical pronunciation.
I taught Latin first in a Catholic high school (church) and then in the public schools (classical). I've sung the Mozart Requiem under a conductor who favored church, and then under another conductor who favored Germanic.
Now that in retirement I've been studying Spanish, I tend to speak Latin with a mixture of church and Hispanic pronunciation.
Confused? Hey! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Truth is, we really don't know how the average Roman on the street pronounced the language, let alone how Cicero pronounced it in the Senate or Plautus had his actors pronounce it on the stage.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Also, in the interests of liturgical obscurity, it's worth observing there's such a thing as the Latin Book of Common Prayer, intended for use in (inter alia) Oxbridge chapels where Latin would, naturally, be 'understanded of the people'.
To tangent to the more practical side of the thread, this text might be useful for those classicists who say their offices daily. I've been through both Matins and Vespers, and they're fairly easy to follow. As well, some of the collects work pretty clearly into Latin-- certainly, many of them were taken from Latin work.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suspect that the methods used in the approaches to OP in Shakespeare would work for Latin at least for specified historical dates.
I have seen this approach applied to the hymns of Wesley.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
This was my dilemma in my pre-Thames days. I belonged to Una Voce, at whose liturgies I had to tune out the homily, and Dignity, where I had to grit my teeth at everything else! I squared it by going Anglican: YMMV.
This is the church where I was confirmed. It uses the 1962 missal exclusively but ordains women and marries same-gender couples.
Thomas Day would seem to imply that the correlation between liturgical traditionalism and reactionary politics that you find in the SSPX (particularly in Europe) is itself a post-conciliar phenomenon:
quote:
Modern Catholics have sometimes forgotten that, as late as 1964, the "fun" High Mass with good choral music and maybe some congregational singing was considered "liberal" and "progressive." "Liberal Catholics" loved chant and lamented that they never heard it done properly or done at all in their parishes. "Liberal Catholics" were somewhat High Church in their preferences. A great example of this "High Church liberalism" was Father George Barry Ford, the controversial pastor of Corpus Christi Church in Manhattan ... Father Ford constantly infuriated his superiors down in the "powerhouse" behind St. Patrick's (then the location of the diocesan chancery) because of his liberal notions on ecumenism and his open exchange of ideas with the atheists at nearby Columbia University. It was considered only natural that someone with his dangerously liberal leanings would be in charge of the only parish for miles around which treated the church's liturgical heritage as if it were "serious fun." The bedrock, faith-of-our-fathers conservatives in the archdiocese did not know what was worse about this radical Father Ford: his too-friendly relations with Protestant ministers, university professors, and other dangerous types or his church, where the choir energetically sang Masses by Mozart and where the congregation sang. . . Gregorian chant!
Father Ford was the priest who welcomed Thomas Merton into the Catholic Church. He was clearly a powerful influence.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Tibi Omnes
Apprentice
# 18608
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Posted
For someone like myself, who had rather perform devotions alone than be beset by doggerel hymns, or fellow believers who think the Girl Scouts have a pernicious liberal agenda, praying in the original languages is, I find, key. When I read Ambrose or Jerome in Latin, it's as though I hear their voices. They seem present. Though the NT in Greek absolutely flashes and crackles, Jerome's Latin has a King James fullness and Resonance about it. If I were confined to English, I'd use the un-modernized 1611 KJV and the marvellous old Anglican liturgy.
For people in the modern world, many of our most profound and and spiritual experiences come from reading. I don't think this means we fall short of the spirituality of previous generations: ours is just different. A literary experience may be merely aesthetic, but in need not be only that.
Tolle, lege! Augustine was in this as in much else far far ahead of his time.
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...mirate come'l tempo vole
E si come la vita
fugge et la Morte n'e sovra le spalle.
--- Petrarch
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Certainly many European countries had their own pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin. The pronunciation of 'kyrie' in the Greek fashion is typically Germanic, but so also ,and this is typical also in Slavic countries is the 'g' pronounced always a 'g' in 'girl' (gratias agamus and gratias agimus have the same 'g' sound) and 'c' is pronounced as English 'ts'.
In the 'cheat card' for altar servers in Austrian churches pre Vatican 2 'coeli et terra' would have been written as 'zaeli et terra' (In German 'z' is pronounced as 'ts'.)
One of the peculiarities of Spanish pronunciation
which Pope Francis still uses (and there are others) is to pronounce the 'qu' of requiem like 'k'.If you listen to the weekly Angelus you will notice this every week when he says Requiem aeternam dona eis,Domine.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Well, quite. Once at a parish coffee hour, an Austrian gentleman told me a story about visiting an abbey there: the monks answered the door with "Benedicite" pronounced in the German-Latin fashion. And of course in that video of the SSPX church in Paris that makes the rounds online, the celebrant employs a distinctly French pronunciation of Latin. (The Acadian priest from whom I learned to serve the TLM used a more conventional Italianate accent, and that's what I picked up).
One of the francophone priests at my current parish does pronounce Kyrie as Nick Tamen and leo describe.
[ 30. June 2016, 16:01: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know about American Old Catholics, but Dutch and German ones are in full communion with the Church of England. Their liturgy was based on the Tridentine Mass (though usually in the vernacular); I rather think that they have updated their liturgies somewhat in recent years.
The Anglican church in Prague is (or was) classed under Czech law as the English-speaking parish of the Old Catholic Church in the Czech Republic.
Thanks - David Holeton used to be dean of my seminary until he left
rather unpleasantly. He now serves on the Anglican-Old Catholic International Commission - as a representative on the Old Catholic side. Now I understand why.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
As a general rule, in Europe until sometime about 1900, Latin was pronounced as if it were the normal language of the country of the speaker. In the UK, this was overtaken by the "new" way of pronouncing Latin, and in music some time later by church pronunciation.
The rule in English was that, very roughly, you pronounced a wrod as if it were in English. I recall Harold MacMillan conferring degrees at Oxford in 1970 using the pronunciation he's learned a school in the 1890s -- not at all like church or italian Latin. The phrase in question was "Ad-meye-to tee ad gray-dum", not "Ad-mit-to tay ad grah-dum".
Thus, the canticles at Morning Prayer included the Ven-eye-ty (not the wen-eet-ay), the Tee Dee-um (not the Tay Day-um) and the Ben-e-deye-si-tee (not the ben-edi-chi (or Ki)-tay).
If German and Spanish have retained their historic pronunciations, more power to them.
John
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
the Tee Dee-um (not the Tay Day-um)
That explains why I once saw it listed as "The Tedium" in a service leaflet -- and believe me, the way the choir sang it, "tedium" was an understatement!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
... Thus, the canticles at Morning Prayer included the Ven-eye-ty (not the wen-eet-ay), the Tee Dee-um (not the Tay Day-um) and the Ben-e-deye-si-tee (not the ben-edi-chi (or Ki)-tay). ...
As far as I'm concerned, that is - or was until people stopped having BCP Morning Prayer all that often - how they are still pronounced. However they may be pronounced anywhere else, I'd still regard pronouncing them the way they are in the brackets as incredibly affected.
Incidentally, I understand similar arguments exist about how to pronounce Ancient Greek. There is also quite a pronounced opinion that how Greek was pronounced changed a lot between the classical era (e.g. 400 BC) and the time when the NT was written. After that, it is alleged, pronunciation changed more slowly.
I am fairly sure, that that in Greece now, this is ignored and all Greek of whatever period, is read as though it is ordinary modern Greek. Does any shipmate actually know?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
. . . law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) . . . .
Or bona fide
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However they may be pronounced anywhere else, I'd still regard pronouncing them the way they are in the brackets as incredibly affected.
When I learned Latin in school, which was considerably more recent than 1900, I learned "be-ne-di-ki-tay" and so on. So that's where I naturally start for nay kind of Latin.
Except that, rather ironically, I am unable to say anything other than "Sissero".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
. . . law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) . . . .
Or bona fide
Or even basic subpoena, these days usually this one word.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Or even basic subpoena, these days usually this one word. [/QB]
In Scotland, when it mattered, bona fide was also one word: on Sundays, to obtain alcoholic refreshment, one had to be "a bonafied [sic] traveller". Five miles or so established one's good faith, and need of recruitment.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
I'd pronounce it Kehrteeohrahree.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Tibi Omnes
Apprentice
# 18608
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Posted
As regards "authenticity," regards these consonantal fine points are put in the shade by Latin's being a quantitative language, so English and German speakers will butcher it however they say their V's and C's by giving one syllable a stress.
It is however very interesting and much fun to hear how differently everyone pronounces. I learned the academic style, and never feel my papers are not in order, except when confronted with certain place names, like Cilicia, which sound a bit off, even though I've seen it in Greek and know from the kappas that the hard C's are historically sound. Kill-icky-ya still sounds awful to me.
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...mirate come'l tempo vole
E si come la vita
fugge et la Morte n'e sovra le spalle.
--- Petrarch
Posts: 23 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
I'd pronounce it Kehrteeohrahree.
The pronunciation (at least here) is sursherairai. Sorry, don't know how to do do phonetic script on this keyboard, but that e is the indefinite one. The change from old to new pronunciation, still being talked about when I did Latin in senior school, was substantial. Like others, I'd still pronounce Cicero in English as sisserow.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with Gee D.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
I'd pronounce it Kehrteeohrahree.
The pronunciation (at least here) is sursherairai. Sorry, don't know how to do do phonetic script on this keyboard, but that e is the indefinite one. The change from old to new pronunciation, still being talked about when I did Latin in senior school, was substantial. Like others, I'd still pronounce Cicero in English as sisserow.
I would if I was discussing him in History. If I were reading a piece of Latin that mentioned him, it would be Keekehro.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The pronunciation (at least here) is sursherairai.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I agree with Gee D.
That's the standard pronunciation in the States, too.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I had the occasion yesterday to be snorting my espresso in the company of a minor justice of the provincial bench and asked him about Latin pronunciation in his court. He said he has encountered three schools; legal Latin, which is as spoken in rural Ontario (e.g., sertiorarry), then the occasional classicist (sub yudiké), and ecclesiastical, which is most common with francophone lawyers (chertori-arri). He really didn't care as long as they knew what they were talking about. He had done years as an altar boy and was schooled by brothers, then Jesuits, so really preferred the ecclesiastical pronunciation-- he regretted that he could no longer do an impromptu presentation in Latin, as he could in his younger days.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Since Italian directly evolved from Latin, ISTM that the most sensible (as well as euphonious) pronunciation is that closer to Italian. (Or I suppose to any other Romance language like Spanish or French, although the latter has evolved further). English 'school Latin' seems like an archaeological reconstruction, and old-style anglo pronunciation is just risible.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I'd say that some words - eg subpoena - have now ceased being Latin and in this format have become English. So the right plural is now subpoenas, not subpoenae. All this ignores the widespread abolition of the word from rules of court and the replacement with summons.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I'd say that some words - eg subpoena - have now ceased being Latin and in this format have become English. So the right plural is now subpoenas, not subpoenae. All this ignores the widespread abolition of the word from rules of court and the replacement with summons.
Properly speaking, it would I think be "writs subpoena". It could never be "subpoenae", given that it is not a Latin word. (And, while "poena" is a Latin word, it is in fact ablative here and the plural would be "poenis".)
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Agree. My Latin's now over 50 yrs old and I should have checked.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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