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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A 'locution'
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Without going into too many details - nor sparking, I hope, any old-ground debates - something happened today that caused me to revise some of the more cynical/sceptical ideas I've expressed here about 'prophecy' in the charismatic sense ...
I'm still sufficiently 'charismatic' to believe that God can and does 'speak' to people - but generally these days tend to see 'prophecy' more in terms of speaking truth to power, challenging unjust situations etc etc rather than the somewhat 'jejune' practices that characterise so-called 'prophecy' in many charismatic settings.
However ...
I met an RC layman today who told of a time when he had what, he said, St Theresa of Avila would call a 'locution' - ie. a time when he clearly felt he'd heard the voice of God - not audibly as such but something that was both deep in his gut and somehow external at one and the same time.
The message/content wasn't particularly profound - but it was certainly powerful and fitting for the situation he described. As he spoke about it, his voice choked and his eyes filled up ... there was a sense of authenticity about the whole thing. It wasn't like one of these 'forced' emotional trips ... you got the impression that the guy had experienced something very deep, gritty and life-changing.
Now - I'm not about to become a raving charismatic again (if ever I was one) - but it has given me pause in terms of being overly dismissive of this sort of thing.
I don't know why - perhaps it was because it came from someone within an older and more venerable tradition - but the whole thing 'sat' better with me than so much I've heard (or even delivered) that purports to be 'prophecy' within charismatic evangelical movements of more recent provenance.
The context of the thing was a fairly turgid, business-as-usual kind of event - but all of a sudden it was like being in one of those 'thin places' - where the sense of the divine and the numinous was somehow more apparent.
The whole thing felt very grounded and I have to say, very , very real.
I don't know whether this introduces anything new to discussions there have been on these sort of topics here on Ship - and I don't wish to revisit or rehearse some of the arguments I've had previously.
But I punt this out, for what it's worth ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I wasn't there Gamaliel.
As in the African healings I've been told about by those who were there.
And you weren't there when that dog stopped barking.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
fwiw, I have had a few experiences that sound like that. In my experience, they have been rare-- and precious. Whether that's because of some failing in me (too preoccupied with being in control to slow down and seek God) or whether it's inherent to the nature of divine revelation, who is to say? But I do tend to be skeptical of those who claim to have those sorts of experiences on a regular basis, particularly if it seems like they are able to conjure them up at will. ymmv. Interested to see how others see it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Or whether neither of those and the mind explains it all quite easily. And God joins with us regardless of whether we invoke Him or not with 'awareness'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I would see things like that too, Cliffdweller. Due to circumstances I have a lot of new charismatic friends, and while I can definitely appreciate a more emotional stance than a cessationist one, I'm not keen on the need to spiritualise everything. Sometimes, stuff just happens and it's not God giving you a sign or Satan trying to snare you up.
[tangent]
Gamaliel, do you know of Rev Chris Howson? I think you might like him re the prophesying truth to power thing.
[/tangent]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
you got the impression that the guy had experienced something very deep, gritty and life-changing....
The whole thing felt very grounded and I have to say, very , very real.
Well I have to admit surprise as this is not very theologically argued on your part!
You don't have to go very far at all in charismatic circles to hear people talking like that, or indeed into completely non-Christian circles.
I think your musings indicate you're not really theologically opposed to anything charismatic at all. And I think that where we may be similar is that our ire against charismatics is less that we think it's ALL hokum than that we think it's drowning out something that's real.
In my experience the Spirit is alive, well and active in plenty of less noisy forms of Christian spirituality; you just have to be discerning enough to get past the superficiality.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think your musings indicate you're not really theologically opposed to anything charismatic at all. And I think that where we may be similar is that our ire against charismatics is less that we think it's ALL hokum than that we think it's drowning out something that's real.
Yes. This.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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itsarumdo
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# 18174
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Posted
I also agree with Cliffdweller - and have also had one major and a few slightly lesser "somatic" (whole-body) experience with a similar quality.
What I find impossible with the Charismatic approach is that I have consistently found it far harder to detect in myself what is authentic when there is some degree of expectation to feel a WOW! and also to communicate this extraordinarily precious moment to joe/jill bloggs. I ended up talking about some "lesser" (if that means anything in this context) personal experiences yesterday with a work colleague and afterwards had a nauseous feeling that said some of the discussion went to places where there was insufficient respect for the content.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I know some non-Christians who have had experiences like this, although I suppose the interpretation might vary. But presumably many Christians are comfortable with this. What you seek is seeking you, (Rumi).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Fineline
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# 12143
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Posted
I've had experiences like this. Didn't know it was seen as a charismatic thing, nor that it was something I needed to convince others of. I've just seen it as between me and God, and not really directly relevant to anyone else. I see it in terms of God meeting each person where they are at, and speaking to them in a way they understand and can relate to.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes this - too, to Eutychus's post. I'm with Cliffdweller and think Eutychus has nailed it - I'm not opposed to the 'charismatic' dimension per se - simply concerned that the 'over-eggedness' (to use a term Eutychus hates) of so much card-carrying charismatic practice seems to drown out the genuine and promote the superficial.
In framing the OP I deliberately tried to avoid putting it into formally theological terms - it was one of those 'let all mortal flesh keep silence' moments - and I didn't want to 'ruin' that with some kind of cheese-paringly 'Scholastic ' ruminations ...
That's not a call for anti-intellectualism, of course. But there are times and seasons.
I agree that non-Christians can and do report this sort of thing too - and I have no beef about that. The older I get the less I am prone to categorise things ... whereas on the other hand I do find myself warming more to order and process.
Another of these both/and things ...
I think what struck a chord with me yesterday was that the guy's story came up in a context where I wasn't expecting any discussion of matters charismatic - although as there were a number of self-declared 'quiet charismatics' there he clearly felt on safe enough ground to share some of the more 'vatic' of his experiences.
Aside from the 'locution' thing - or what we might call the more 'dramatic' manifestation of the Spirit's activity - the over-riding sense I had was that there was a particular 'unction' or 'charism' to use the RC term - about what this guy was doing and the sort of things he was involved with - both within the RC and beyond. Not in the sense of spectacular gifts and ra-rah-rah so much as a quiet sense of natural and divine wisdom - if I can put it that way - going hand in hand.
As with a lot of deeply spiritual people I've met from all traditions he seemed to have the uncanny ability to give 100% attention to however he was dealing with at any one time and to radiate empathy and the ability to listen and understand.
Sure, I've seen plenty of people who seem able to operate like that in a secular context to - but I dunno ... this seemed to be a case of natural ability plus ... if you know what I mean.
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In response to Pomona - no, I haven't come across Rev Chris Howson's stuff but I've heard the name. I'll look it up.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can certainly understand what you are getting at too, itsarumdo ... I'm tempted to say that the 'nauseous' impression you had was partly a 'pearls before swine' thing - but you'll be a better judge of that I am .
I think the bottom-line is that these things are precious and should not be trivialised. Rather as the oil and the incense/smelly stuff used in the OT ceremonies was restricted for that purpose and not meant to be sold off as 'normal' perfume etc.
For myself, I find myself reluctant to talk about personal experiences of that kind - and I've had some which are akin but not identical to the one the RC guy described - unless it's clear that the other person is 'in a place' to receive and hear them ... that's not always easy to ascertain.
I've certainly been guilty in the past of presenting a rather reductionist 'set of propositions' impression of the Gospel -- and perhaps I've been unnecessarily wary at times of introducing the experiential dimension ... but 'who is equal to these things'?
We can only do what we can do.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
the over-riding sense I had was that there was a particular 'unction' or 'charism' to use the RC term - about what this guy was doing and the sort of things he was involved with - both within the RC and beyond. Not in the sense of spectacular gifts and ra-rah-rah so much as a quiet sense of natural and divine wisdom - if I can put it that way - going hand in hand.
Yeah, but I still think you're just not as used to it as to the charismatic presentation, in much the same way that neophytes to the charismatic scene could have the impression "this is so dynamic, God is really here".
When it coes to discerning "charism", it takes quite a while (or good discernment!) to filter out what's just part of the prevailing spirituality and what's actually God.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know why - perhaps it was because it came from someone within an older and more venerable tradition - but the whole thing 'sat' better with me than so much I've heard (or even delivered) that purports to be 'prophecy' within charismatic evangelical movements of more recent provenance.
Like you, Gamaliel, I am non-cessationist; unimpressed with the jejune banality of alleged prophecies and interpretations of tongues; and fond of order, liturgy and non-febrile worship milieux.
Having said that bro, I also have to say that this comment comes across as mere ecclesiastical snobbery.
There are any number of superficial, even loony, RCs,just as there are plenty of mature and sensible charismatics/evangelicals.
No tradition has a monopoly on sanity.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
My experience has been God speaks to us* in ways that don't always look like what we expect God speaking to us to look like. So that may include things from outside our tradition or even the church, but also it may include stuff we'd initially tend to reject.
One of the most significant ways in which "God spoke to me" was through what outwardly looked like the typical naff and trivial stereotype of the charismatic "word". However unless you'd been in my head you wouldn't know that somehow the person involved hit on an exact form of words that was significant for me. It would have looked to all the world like just a harmless but twee platitude.
Which is why I'm often wary of assuming that we can weed out the chaff simply by looking at the outward form. For myself I wouldn't want to give a "word"** in a triumphalist, emotionally loaded way with "thus saith the Lord!" language - I think those things can be barriers to understanding and problematic in other ways. But as someone trying to discern what God may be saying to me, I try to look past those things to see if there is something that resonates.
Personally I think the answer to a lot of the excesses and errors seen in charismatic circles is not to pre-judge based on style but to actually create a safe environment where people can fail. Which is partly about weighing. So often when this topic comes up it seems like the only choices are to somehow pre-filter out all the wild and wacky or accept anything that comes along. How about actually allowing some wild and wacky but subjecting it to some communal reflection and assessment? In fact I'd argue that some of the wacky is actually a person trying to "amplify the signal", in a setting where they know they'll get heard perhaps they'll learn to tone it down.
I seen this work well - sadly not often enough.
(*used with the usual caveats
**not that I do that much these days)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I've had experiences like this. Didn't know it was seen as a charismatic thing, nor that it was something I needed to convince others of. I've just seen it as between me and God, and not really directly relevant to anyone else. I see it in terms of God meeting each person where they are at, and speaking to them in a way they understand and can relate to.
Same here. Hasn't happened to me very often - perhaps only ever once or twice- but never seen it as anyone else's business!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If it came across as 'mere ecclesiastical snobbery', Kaplan, then I apologise - that wasn't my intention.
Nor, would I suggest, is it even implicit in what I wrote. You clearly overlooked the caveat I included - 'perhaps' ...
I can see what you're getting at and for what it's worth and in deference to your own particular tradition, I would certainly include the Brethren as an 'older' and in some ways more venerable and 'reliable' tradition than certain more recent developments. Likewise some of the traditional Pentecostal denominations over and against some more contemporary off-shoots/developments from that end of things.
I don't know why you appear to be so touchy.
I'm fully aware that there are RC and Orthodox nutters out there just as there are Pentecostal, charismatic and conservative evangelical fruit-cakes.
No-one is claiming otherwise. Also, I'd highlighted one aspect of what this RC chap was saying - to make a point for the OP. I didn't include the full whack of his discourse - nor cite some of the examples he himself gave of whackiness, neglect and spiritual abuse from within his own tradition.
If anything, that made his account of his experience all the more authentic - you're talking about a guy who's had to deal with clerical indifference, a certain degree of hostility and indifference as well as clergy who are 'drying out' as a result of their alcohol problems. He gave an estimate of the proportion of priests in each RC diocese who have a 'drink problem' - and it was frighteningly high ...
You should know by now, Kaplan that I'm a both/and not either/or merchant. Simply because I'm highlighting an impressive facet of praxis in one sector of Christendom doesn't mean I'm overlooking other aspects which give cause for concern.
I'm guilty of all sorts of things, but in this instance I don't believe that ecclesiastical snobbery is one of them.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
FWIW, I agree with Paul that we have to look beyond the 'packaging' and the 'amplification' at times - and that this means that we will sometimes have to accept things that are presented in 'styles' or settings that we might not otherwise approve of ...
Again, this happens in all traditions too ... I know plenty of RCs, for instance, who deplore some of the more tattier elements of their ecclesiastical tat. Not all RC's have had an aestheticism by-pass operation ... although one could be forgiven a contrary impression by visiting some RC churches I know ...
They have learned how to 'look beyond' the tat ... in the same way as those of us from Protestant evangelical charismatic backgrounds have learned to look beyond the way things can be packaged in our own tradition.
I've mentioned elsewhere on these boards a recent conversation with a chap I work with occasionally. He'd been clearly 'blown away' and quite shaken in fact - perhaps even indelibly - by an experience at his very evangelical cousin's funeral.
One side of his family is a long-standing evangelical/missionary dynasty - in a very 1950s conservative evangelical kind of way. He's always been put off by that and has recounted tales to me in the past taking the mickey about this, that or the other aspect of their attitude and antics.
Yet, when his cousin died suddenly at a relatively young age, he was bowled over by the raw authenticity of his relatives' faith - as demonstrated at the funeral. It wasn't trite, it wasn't jejune, it was raw, blood and guts, nitty-gritty faith - their grief was genuine and profound but so was their faith in the God who has the power to save.
Ok - so he'd felt uncomfortable when his 80-odd year old uncle tried to get him to pray the 'sinner's prayer' and the whole presentation would have struck many of us here on the Ship as uneasily naff and crass.
Yet for all that, he could see something very deep and very real there. He was visibly shaken. It was very evident in his voice and his demeanour. It'd clearly made a profound impression on him that transcended the way the whole thing was handled and presented. He could see the reality behind it.
In it's own way, I'd suggest that this - for my colleague - was his equivalent of what the RC chap I met yesterday was trying to describe.
So, no, I'm not singling out any particular traditions for praise or blame. 'The wind bloweth where it listeth ...' and windows will open to heaven from within 1950s style conservative evangelicalism as well as within Roman Catholicism or anything else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
C. S. Lewis, who was certainly not charismatic, told the following story.
He had planned to go somewhere to carry out a specific errand. Then he learned that it was unnecessary. However, a nagging voice inside his head kept saying, "Go anyway."
He went and encountered a man he had helped in the past who needed his help right then, which he gladly gave.
Then he knew why he was told to go.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Is that "charismatic"?
I though that was "just" being in tune
Though I have seen people stuck in that who I was't 100% sure whether they were delusional or not - I guess if you keep it to yourself and don't make a big deal of it other than gratitude, then it's not delusional. This is what puts me off all the song and dance and waving hands around. That inner quiet voice becomes harder to hear and then random thoughts are lumped in with Grace as if they'e all part of the same mulligatawny soup.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A lot of that 'presentiment' stuff can be explained away by the mind rationalising things in retrospect - but there are certainly plenty of similar stories from well-known and less well-known Christians down the ages -- and I don't doubt that it happens with people of other faiths or none too ...
I'm not sure where to draw the line on these things or even if one needs to be drawn in the first place.
I agree with itsarumdo that making more of a song and dance and noise about these things makes it more difficult to discern the 'still small voice' - or lends itself towards a form of super-spirituality and over-spiritualisation of everything that happens.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When it comes to discerning "charism", it takes quite a while (or good discernment!) to filter out what's just part of the prevailing spirituality and what's actually God.
Exactly, thank you you've said it far better than I could have done. And despite the challenges, I do think it's worth the effort to work through the dross and find the gems.
My understanding is that God speaking (in whatever form that takes) is about the message being both conveyed and received. I too have heard exactly what I needed to hear when someone spoke to me and the words landed with far more significance than the speaker had intended. Because of the spiritual impact the words had on me, I received them as from God.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I've had experiences like this. Didn't know it was seen as a charismatic thing, nor that it was something I needed to convince others of. I've just seen it as between me and God, and not really directly relevant to anyone else. I see it in terms of God meeting each person where they are at, and speaking to them in a way they understand and can relate to.
Same here. Hasn't happened to me very often - perhaps only ever once or twice- but never seen it as anyone else's business!
Thirded - it has happened to me precisely twice, and each time it was specific to what I was pondering on at the time. The words were quite loud (not audibly, but loud in my head as it were) and met my need. I've not forgotten either time, and am thankful for them both.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As far as I know, I've never heard a 'voice'. I'm also very wary of someone who says 'This is the word of the Lord' or 'God has told me ... '. It's taking risks with one's soul to claim that sort of authority. But bearing in mind the witness of scripture, I think it's far more dangerous to say this cannot happen. It's tantamount to saying that God doesn't, or more arrogantly can't, engage with us or the world we live in.
That said, whether we think this is the work of demons or the seduction waywardness of our psyches, we need to be very wary of beguilement/prelest. We aren't rejecting God by being cautious.
I don't, though, Gamaliel agree with you on this.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... - but generally these days tend to see 'prophecy' more in terms of speaking truth to power, challenging unjust situations etc etc. ...
It's become fashionable to use 'prophecy' and 'prophetic' that way, but IMHO it's a serious misuse of language. It's clear that in scripture, prophecy whether true or false, involves speaking a specific message of God into a situation. To be prophetic, there must be some vatic, supernatural element.
Just being controversial or speaking challengingly about politics in a loud, shouty voice, important though that may sometimes be, doesn't make a person prophetic.
Also, since I suspect true prophecy is rather rare, saying things that quite a lot of people have already been able to work out, even if they are true and need saying, doesn't become prophetic by having a pulpit to proclaim them from.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I can see what you are saying Enoch and share your concerns to an extent ...
However, I would certainly maintain that challenges to power and so on can be 'prophetic' and not necessarily have a 'vatic' or supernatural quality.
Take the famous story of the Russian monk who challenged Ivan The Terrible as he was about to wreak havoc on a rebel city - having put a neighbouring town to fire and sword.
The story goes that as the Tsar approached, the monk went out to meet him carrying a raw and dripping steak in his hands ... when Ivan reined his horse to a halt, the monk unclasped his hands to show the dripping, bloody meat.
Nothing was said but the significance was obvious. The Tsar turned round and rode away with his army. The city was saved.
To use another example I know of. I once worked with some local poets on a poetry/music event based around some sculptures that depict the various stages of grief. They are used in bereavement counselling and so on.
The artist had one of the most harrowing tales to tell that I'd ever heard. She'd been through a very messy and acrimonious divorce and as part of coming to terms and working through that had taken up a place on a sculpture class. Shortly afterwards, she was diagnosed with breast cancer and lost all her hair through the radiotherapy. As she was recovering from that she received a phone call - one of her sons and his wife - both experienced climbers - had been killed in a freak climbing accident in the Rockies. Their bodies were not recovered for some time. When they were finally recovered and taken to the morgue the medics discovered that her daughter-in-law had been pregnant ... there was an unborn child.
Reeling from all of this, the artist went on her customary annual retreat to an RC convent. It was an enclosed order. When she arrived, the abbess greeted her in silence and instead of the customary Bible notes and readings she handed her ... a ball of clay.
That ball of clay became the maquettes for the sculpture series on the theme of grief, acceptance and resignation ...
Now - was that prophetic or was that prophetic?
No 'thus saith the Lord', not even a 'voice' - nothing was said in either case.
I'm not dismissing the idea of vatic, supernatural prophecy in the sense that charismatics stress and emphasise - but I think the whole thing is broader and deeper than that.
Indeed, I'd be very wary of anything prefixed with claims to be the 'word of the Lord' in a 'prelest' sense.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I can't comment on the Ivan the Terrible story because I've not heard it before. It was very courageous. It may or may have been prophetic in the true sense of the word. It sounds, though, as if the abbess did have some sort of prophetic or charismatic gift.
Gestures, illustrative demonstrations etc are certainly part of the prophetic tradition in the scriptural record. An example is Jer 19 but there are plenty of others.
[ 04. June 2015, 21:30: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Time and chance and disposition explain it ALL. Including to auditory and visual hallucination. Waking, hypnopompic dreams. I ALWAYS tell my paranoid schizophrene friends to talk to the voices. To themselves. We greatly underestimate the capabilities of our ineffable minds to express themselves.
We certainly are haunted looms of a billion flying shuttles.
With no requirement for anything transpersonal.
If anyone speaks to me now - and they incipiently intrusively do, it is me. I embrace that.
And God is.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't, though, Gamaliel agree with you on this.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... - but generally these days tend to see 'prophecy' more in terms of speaking truth to power, challenging unjust situations etc etc. ...
It's become fashionable to use 'prophecy' and 'prophetic' that way, but IMHO it's a serious misuse of language. It's clear that in scripture, prophecy whether true or false, involves speaking a specific message of God into a situation. To be prophetic, there must be some vatic, supernatural element.
Just being controversial or speaking challengingly about politics in a loud, shouty voice, important though that may sometimes be, doesn't make a person prophetic.
Also, since I suspect true prophecy is rather rare, saying things that quite a lot of people have already been able to work out, even if they are true and need saying, doesn't become prophetic by having a pulpit to proclaim them from.
I agree with your definition, but I'm a bit more open to the possibility that "prophetic" is being correctly used in this sense. I think of someone like MLK who is significantly moving the agenda forward, brining significant social change in a way that we can all agree is "Godward". I think the message he brought was, in fact, God-given-- i.e. prophesy, The fact that he didn't claim the "prophetic" mantle himself but that the word is given by others only affirms that IMHO- often "prophesy" is better understood by those the hearers rather than the speakers.
otoh, to your point, there is always that tendency to label what we want to hear/agree with as "prophetic"-- a tendency we indulge to our peril.
[ 05. June 2015, 15:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
To play devil's advocate:
Could it be there is a bit of confirmation bias going on here? Hundreds of people may have such feelings, but very very few of them pan out. Odds are, even if just by coincidence, once in a while one of them is going to come out the way the feeling led you to believe.
There's an xkcd comic strip where a guy says he's psychic. The woman he's with is skeptical, so he asks her to think of a number from 1 to 100. He confidently tells her it's a 43. It was. She's of course blown away. The legend says, "This only works 1% of the time, but when it does, it's worth it."
Perhaps so with these premonitions or whatever you may call them. You may hear of an amazing example, but perhaps only because the 99 other people who had them didn't have such a great result, and didn't tell you about them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
To further mt's post when I was ~ 16, I awoke in the night with the certain, clear knowledge that I would not live to morning. No fear, no preceding nightmare, no concurrent anxiety. Just the calm realisation that I would die before the sun rose.
It is difficult to properly relate the clarity of that revelation, the peace which accompanied it or the certainty of its reality.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Yes, my family is full of people who had premonitions, with varying degrees of accuracy. Never picked the Grand National.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I am sure confirmation bias comes into this.
In the abbess and the sculptor story, I have no idea whether the nun knew the sculptor's circumstances beforehand or not - to be that's not the issue. Either way - it was a pretty 'inspired' thing to do. Same as the monk with Ivan The Terrible. Same with MLK.
In the case of the RC guy in the OP there wasn't anything 'predictive' about the 'locution' - if that's what it was - but it was certainly instructional and directional ' as well as confirming.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In total darkness, a single candle is visible form 10 miles away. No matter how much darkness there is, a bit of - statistically INSIGNIFICANT - light goes a LONG way. There were Nazis who made sure the trains DIDN'T run on time.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Blast you, mousethief! It's past midnight already. How many pages are there in that d*** comic?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
To play devil's advocate:
Could it be there is a bit of confirmation bias going on here? Hundreds of people may have such feelings, but very very few of them pan out. Odds are, even if just by coincidence, once in a while one of them is going to come out the way the feeling led you to believe.
There's an xkcd comic strip where a guy says he's psychic. The woman he's with is skeptical, so he asks her to think of a number from 1 to 100. He confidently tells her it's a 43. It was. She's of course blown away. The legend says, "This only works 1% of the time, but when it does, it's worth it."
Perhaps so with these premonitions or whatever you may call them. You may hear of an amazing example, but perhaps only because the 99 other people who had them didn't have such a great result, and didn't tell you about them.
All too true.
I still think it is about both the speaker and the hearer in these situations. Things have been said to me which I thought were complete rubbish much to the disappointment of the speaker.There have been other times when I have been battling with something and someone else has felt a nudge (for want of a better word) to write/call to tell me something without knowing my circumstances. Their words were just what I needed to hear. So something said by a kind human being, because of my own approach to spirituality became God's voice to me. It may well be confirmation bias but its fruit was that I was drawn to God and received peace. That's fine by me!
[ 06. June 2015, 07:03: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think it might be helpful to distinguish between things which are directly 'vatic' in what might be a 'supernatural' sense and things that we do 'naturally' as it were but which God 'owns' and uses.
So, for instance, a cheery smile or offering someone a cup of coffee after a church service may not be explicitly 'prophetic' yet it can, in the right circumstances, have a profound effect on a visitor or someone needing encouragement or support.
I once heard a story of a very rugged and hard-bitten mining guy on Zambia's copper-belt who had come to faith after he'd seen a visiting evangelist brushing his teeth ...
This guy's wife was a Christian and often hosted visiting ministers and speakers. The mining engineer was happy for to do so but remained completely unimpressed and unmoved by their company or conversations over the years.
One day, an elderly missionary came to stay. The next morning, completely unaware that he was being observed, he started singing an old Sunday school song as he was brushing his teeth. In between the verses he started waving the toothbrush around as if beating time to the music.
The words were so trite and childish but the old guy's joy so evident that the mining engineer was struck to the quick. If a grown man could act so unselfconsciously and demonstrate such authentic joy, then there must be something in this Christianity business after all ...
Soon afterwards, he was converted and, I'm told, there was a demonstrable change in is attitude, behaviour and demeanour - the way he treated his fellow workers and so on.
The old missionary didn't 'set out' consciously to have this effect - but it simply flowed from his 'normal' way of life.
To me, that is just as 'prophetic' as the apparent 'locution' in the OP - or the more conscious attempts at 'prophecy' and forth-telling that we get in charismatic circles.
Also - what Mrs Beaky said - and I can think of similar examples I've heard right across the spectrum - for very conservative evangelical settings through to more sacramental and 'High Church' ones.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We are brilliant at reading each other on a bad day. I met a former high profile MP recently and I, who have a zero EQ, can't read body language, or rather bulldoze along regardless of the fact I'm boring somebody's hind leg off, looked him in the eye in the first 5 minutes or less and said, "You've suffered.". Not because everyone has, but because it was obvious. We got on great over a curry.
The Holy Spirit was fully present even though neither of us noticed as we were so absorbed in the interaction, to the annoyance of my wife who had to deal with a very marginalized person.
No strings were pulled. NOTHING was supernaturally micromanaged. I'm EXTREMELY grateful for God's fullest possible provision in all things at all times including of Himself. That I can invoke Him. Even though I can't now as I'm a bloke writing this. There, stopped and a tad sheepishly, momentarily closed my eyes, bobbed my head and whispered 'Lord' and gave a thin lipped smile.
And if I hear Him call my name, for real, no doubt is possible even though I'd prefer it, accompanied by a full on Gideon's sodden fleece, Earth rotation reversal and I go out and commit genocide in His name, because that's what I do, the two are connected how?
[ 06. June 2015, 10:22: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmmm ... I'm not sure I'm saying that because these things can and do happen that God is necessarily 'micro-managing' the whole thing ...
We aren't sock-puppets.
The whole, 'men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God' thing doesn't imply a form of automatic writing or anything of that kind.
If we think and act 'biblically' - in accordance with the overall thrust of the 'Grand Tradition' as it were then I don't see why this shouldn't 'spill over' every now and then into more vatic or supernatural/supranatural events and insights at times ...
The question is one of degree, I think.
And also of 'walking softly' as the old-time Puritans put it.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
as Bill Clinton could tell you, apparently
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I take the point, but I still think that saying that giving someone a cheery smile can be prophetic is emptying prophecy of any real meaning. It may be good to give someone a cheery smile. It may be good to sing while we're brushing our teeth, It may even do something remarkable for someone else. But I don't think that makes it prophecy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I take the point, but I still think that saying that giving someone a cheery smile can be prophetic is emptying prophecy of any real meaning. It may be good to give someone a cheery smile. It may be good to sing while we're brushing our teeth, It may even do something remarkable for someone else. But I don't think that makes it prophecy.
Prophesy is hearing and speaking God's word. So if God told them to smile or sing, then yeah, it would be prophesy. And I believe God does sometimes work thru just such mundane things. The thing is, though, it's not testable. You certainly can't prove that the missionary's singing was prophetic. And that's OK-- as long as you're not trying to make it prove something or leaning on others to accept it as prophetic and therefore authoritative.
The few times I have felt God's speaking to me, it was such a unique and powerful experience there was no doubt in my mind what was happening. It didn't need to be proven, I
knew with a deep and abiding confidence. Indeed, that's what made it so precious to me-- I was able to move forward w/o the self-doubt and second-guessing that consumes so much of the rest of my daily life. At the same time, there was nothing in any of those circumstances that would be proveable to someone outside my head/heart. Nothing in those instances that would convince anyone else of it's prophetic nature. So I wouldn't ask anyone else to stake anything on it's validity.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think you misunderstood the point I was making - most certainly because I didn't explain myself properly.
I'm not reducing prophecy to a cheery smile or to someone waving a toothbrush around ... what I am saying is that God and does work through these simple, everyday things and cause them to have some kind of impact that may indeed be 'prophetic' at times ...
It's the same with the bread and wine of the eucharist - unless we're very Catholic, they remain bread and wine - but they are also 'more than' that ...
As the Anglican eucharistic prayer has it - 'may they be to us the Body and Blood of your Son Jesus Christ ...'
I don't think that something has to be intended as a prophecy in order to - or to become - prophetic.
Indeed, you can see this in the NT itself. Take the example of Caiaphas in John 11:51 - we're told that as High Priest that year he did not speak 'on his own' but - unwittingly it seems - 'prophesied' that Christ would 'die for the Jewish nation.'
I appreciate that this is a complicated passage and not one that can be reduced to simplistic formularies ... but whatever else it might be telling us it suggests that utterances intended in one way, perhaps, can be accompanied by another 'voice' and a higher purpose ...
In one way, yes, I am broadening out the definition of 'prophecy' as charismatics have traditionally seen it. I s'pose my 'work in progress' definition would include what charismatics understand by it - but would not stop there.
Also, I'd be fairly selective as to which apparent 'prophecies' from charismatic circles to take on board ...
FWIW I think the bloke waving the toothbrush around is a far better candidate for 'prophecy' than a whole shed-load of things I've heard in charismatic circles that purport to be prophetic ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
- Cross posted with Cliffdweller - I'm not sure that people have to be 'told' to smile or sing in order for it to have some kind of 'prophetic' impact in the broader sense.
Nobody 'told' that missionary to wave his toothbrush around - he was simply doing it as a spontaneous expression of his joy in the Lord.
Yet it had a tremendous impact on the guy who saw him doing it.
The proof is in the pudding.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How are men moved by the Spirit of God in any way other than as a figure of speech meaning that they were moved? With God Zen nodding like crazy beyond the sense proof veil, yelling 'YES!', 'YESSS!!!', 'GO ON MY SON!!!'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The proof is in the pudding.
Grumpy old man exasperated pedantry alert!
THE PROOF OF THE PUDDING IS IN THE EATING.
Your misquote is common here in Australia, but I didn't realise it had gone global.
Ichabod, Ichabod....O tempora, O mores.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
With God Zen nodding like crazy beyond the sense proof veil, yelling 'YES!', 'YESSS!!!', 'GO ON MY SON!!!'?
I've heard this voice many times. Usually, it isn't the God Zen.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I posted in haste, Kaplan
I will repent at leisure. I do, of course know how the saying should be.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Even corrected for accuracy, I don't think your saying is right.
You are concluding the identity of the chef by the taste of the pudding.
Ignoring that similar scenarios could be attributed to other religions, it could be just part of the old missionary's personality.
He could be a naturally carefree person, could have become so with experience and age or could be beginning to slide into mental decline.
All are at least as likely as the miner's conclusion.
Not trying to harsh your mellow, brah, not trying to convince you that you are wrong. Just saying.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
But that's part of the point I'm trying or struggling to make. What I'm suggesting doesn't obviate similar things happening in other contexts - nor does it validate everything was spot-on or hunky-dory in the particular setting in which the incident took place.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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