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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Do not put us to the test?
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Doing my lay preacher thing at my home church, after making all the arrangements from a distance while on holiday, I had my first experience of a service followed entirely on a screen facing forward from alongside the worship leader, who accordingly can’t read from it.
I didn’t bother to pick up the copy of the print-out of the slides, thinking I was okay with the print out I had of my part (I haven’t quite got the hang of my iPad yet).
The problem came when I found the congregation had a different modern version of the Lord’s Prayer, and I was leading it with pauses as I sometimes do – have you ever got to the end of the prayer and realised you didn’t remember saying it?
My question is for those who are happy to use a widely accepted modern form of the prayer. Do you go with ‘Do not put/bring us to the test’ or with ‘Save us in the time of trial’?
The first I avoid when possible because I cannot accept the theology of God’s putting us to the test.
(A somewhat similar problem several years ago in a country church when I realised that they used the ‘original’ version which I hadn’t spoken for decades, and I had a blank at the first line – but they carried on okay.)
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It's hard to go back to the 1662 BCP (and earlier) now, and I don't think you're the only one who stumbles. We went to a 1662 BCP funeral service not long ago - really a combination of the Communion and funeral rites - and what had been so familiar sounded very odd.
AAPB uses a sort of half-way house, and again we stumble at it. APBA takes the "Save us from the time of trial" and like you, I prefer the theology. But He can test us and does, never to the point of death though. I don't know what OT you read yesterday, but we had bits of Job 1 and 2 where Satan is given permission to test Job, but not to the limit. Does that help?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
"Do not bring us to the time of trial" is the SEC version, carefully straddling the two.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I'm not really comfortable with 'Do not bring us...' As I see it, the trial may come from any earthly source, but God is always with us in that trial.
I didn't use the Job passage, which was in the lectionary alongside Mark 10 and Hebrews 1 & 2. I think that there too you could say that God was with Job, though Job didn't hear God till later. (Among other things, Job fascinates me because he was a man of Uz (ie not a Jew) and ' there is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil'. Like Jonah, a salutary lesson for the Jews who thought God was exclusively theirs.)
My conviction was sparked originally by a discussion (argument?) with an acquaintance who saw every trial she encountered in life as being sent by God to strengthen her. So God made her only child mentally defective in order to strengthen her faith, or bring her closer to God?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
"Do not bring us to the time of trial" is the SEC version, carefully straddling the two.
I really don't like that. It doesn't sound like a prayer, it sounds as though we're ordering God what to do.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
'Time of trial' was in some of the various transitional forms, but the CofE dropped it in Common Worship. The modern form is
quote:
"Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. "
. That is the same as the 1662 words except in 1662 it is preceded by 'And'.
The 1662 Lord's Prayer is still quite widely used in England, particularly at weddings, funerals and civic occasions, though usually with two small grammatical changes which I think derive from the 1920s.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
'Time of trial' was in some of the various transitional forms, but the CofE dropped it in Common Worship. The modern form is
quote:
"Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. "
. That is the same as the 1662 words except in 1662 it is preceded by 'And'.
The 1662 Lord's Prayer is still quite widely used in England, particularly at weddings, funerals and civic occasions, though usually with two small grammatical changes which I think derive from the 1920s.
That form is common here in similar situations, as being the one non-churchgoers have encountered in their youth.
I think that 'do not put us to the test' has the same connotation: that it is God who visits trials upon us, rather than strengthening us when Bad Things Happen, or when we are faced with moral dilemmas.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
That form is common here in similar situations, as being the one non-churchgoers have encountered in their youth.
I think that 'do not put us to the test' has the same connotation: that it is God who visits trials upon us, rather than strengthening us when Bad Things Happen, or when we are faced with moral dilemmas. ...
I suppose the real question is what is the best translation from the Greek. We aren't entitled to adjust it to reflect which interpretation we'd prefer.
My knowledge of Greek is pretty limited. It needs the assistance of a computer. But it looks as though the original phrase means 'and do not lead (imperative) us into' ... a word which in Septuagint Greek means temptation/test. It seems to occupy a piece of lexical territory which isn't definitively one or the other. But it is definitely associated with God testing our mettle. It's also the word used to describe what happens when Jesus is led into the wilderness.
So I'd be inclined to think, keep it simple. If the end result is slightly ambiguous, that ambiguity is in the original.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
One of the problems is taking that statement (whichever translation is used) and interpreting it on its own.
The whole prayer is a series of balanced psalm-like parallelisms around a central petition with (as used in public worship) a concluding doxology.
So:code:
Our father in heaven || hallowed be your name
Your kingdom come || your will be done on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread
Forgive us our sins || as we forgive those who sin against us
Lead us not into temptation* || but deliver us from evil
[* or Do not put us to the test or Do not bring us to the time of trial]
Each pair of parallel statements encapsulates a single idea: God's holiness; a desire that his rule will be made real; a plea for forgiveness; and a plea for protection.
The first three pairs of parallel statements all use synonymous or synthetical parallelism where the second element either restates or builds and develops what is stated in the first. The fourth pair of parallel statements uses antithetical parallelism, in which the statement is reinforced by having the parallel members express opposite sides of the same thought.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Following on from BroJames's excellent post, I think the parallelism of the second half of the prayer involves firstly what we do, and secondly what others do to us.
So:
Forgive us our debts* = Forgive us the wrong things we have done;
as we forgive our debtors = as we forgive others the wrong things they have done to us.
Then:
And lead us not into temptation = keep us from doing wrong;
but deliver us from evil = and stop other people from doing wrong to us.
*formulation most commonly used in the Church of Scotland.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I really don't like that. It doesn't sound like a prayer, it sounds as though we're ordering God what to do.
It does appear to be an accurate translation. It's certainly how the NRSV renders it.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
We could almost run a poll on this in the circus! My biblical-analytic instincts suggest "save us from the time of trial" is far closer to Jesus' original intention, but I was in a group just this morning that agreed the prayer has in 2,000 years gather its own meaning far beyond that which the Incarnate Jesus probably expected. I sometimes invite congregants to pray it in whatever form and or language they prefer - which of course in our pad includes te reo Māori
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We could almost run a poll on this in the circus! My biblical-analytic instincts suggest "save us from the time of trial" is far closer to Jesus' original intention, but I was in a group just this morning that agreed the prayer has in 2,000 years gather its own meaning far beyond that which the Incarnate Jesus probably expected. I sometimes invite congregants to pray it in whatever form and or language they prefer - which of course in our pad includes te reo Māori
Sounds like my kind of group.
(I guess I gave divorce in Mark 10 that kind of treatment.)
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We could almost run a poll on this in the circus! My biblical-analytic instincts suggest "save us from the time of trial" is far closer to Jesus' original intention, but I was in a group just this morning that agreed the prayer has in 2,000 years gather its own meaning far beyond that which the Incarnate Jesus probably expected. I sometimes invite congregants to pray it in whatever form and or language they prefer - which of course in our pad includes te reo Māori
Yes. There's been a semantic shift in the word "temptation" since the Lord's prayer was translated into English.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We could almost run a poll on this in the circus! My biblical-analytic instincts suggest "save us from the time of trial" is far closer to Jesus' original intention, but I was in a group just this morning that agreed the prayer has in 2,000 years gather its own meaning far beyond that which the Incarnate Jesus probably expected. I sometimes invite congregants to pray it in whatever form and or language they prefer - which of course in our pad includes te reo Māori
Yes. There's been a semantic shift in the word "temptation" since the Lord's prayer was translated into English.
Thank you, BroJames; I've found some interesting reading on the internet about temptation (into evil) and testing or trying (for good ends) by – or on behalf of – God.
Which doesn't alter my gut feeling that what I need to ask is for God's saving presence when I am threatened.
And, like Spike, I don't want to tell God what to do. But isn't that the case in other prayers? Even 'Give us this day our daily bread'? Perhaps we imply a more prayerful 'May you give us...' But that's a whole other issue.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Following on from BroJames's excellent post, I think the parallelism of the second half of the prayer involves firstly what we do, and secondly what others do to us.
So:
Forgive us our debts* = Forgive us the wrong things we have done;
as we forgive our debtors = as we forgive others the wrong things they have done to us.
Then:
And lead us not into temptation = keep us from doing wrong;
but deliver us from evil = and stop other people from doing wrong to us.
*formulation most commonly used in the Church of Scotland.
I really like this. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Also I'm pretty sure there was a lengthy Keryg thread a whiles back on the meaning of "lead us not into temptation" I guess it will be Oblivionised now.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The 1662 Lord's Prayer is still quite widely used in England, particularly at weddings, funerals and civic occasions, though usually with two small grammatical changes which I think derive from the 1920s.
My experience in Anglican churches in Europe is that either the CW version is used during a CW service, or that the old version (with "who" instead of "which") is used even if the service is CW. I put this down to the fact that people were socialised into different liturgies across the Communion. I really have to concentrate to say the old version myself.
The German version has "Versuchung", which means temptation.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
<snip>The German version has "Versuchung", which means temptation.
Hmm. Interesting. I wonder if Versuchung has had a semantic shift/narrowing like 'temptation' in English.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Followed Zappa's procedure and firmly said 'be with us in he time of trial' on Sunday when my neighbour was like 'Do not put us to the test'.
Very liberating.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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