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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In what ways does God give us freedom?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
A lot of weight is given to the idea that God gives us total freedom. Freedom to evolve, freedom to choose right from wrong, freedom to love Him or not.
We had this short conversation on another thread -
quote:
Originally posted by Alisdair:
quote:
If we depend on God for everything, why should he 'set us free'? - Boogie
Well, I gues that depends on your understanding of 'freedom' in the context of Love. I have done my best to set my children 'free': I have given them what I know of life, God, love, but I am trying to let them go to make their own choices about these things, rather than be compelled/manipulated into being merely a projection of myself.
Yes, me too - very much so.
But, unlike my kids, my dog could not be brought to independence in that way, yet she is still truly loved. This is also the case for my brother's 35 year old daughter who has never been able to move, speak or communicate in any way. She has Retts syndrome.
And we can never be un-dependent on God (as it's God we rely on for absolutely everything) so I still have the question 'Why set us free?' We are not free. We have something of an illusion of freedom, but that's all it is. If God loves us he does not have to set us free, he just needs to be as kind as it's possible to be to us (not indulgent, kind).
What do you think?
What is this freedom?
Is it real?
Is it necessary?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I think first of all, that we have to make a distinction between freedom of will, and ontological freedom i.e. freedom of being. If God sustains us in existence, then we can never be free to exist without God's sustaining power. So freedom in that sense is nonexistence (interesting side topic regarding freedom from God and hell).
Regarding freedom of will, it is precisely because God sustains our existence and nature that we have the freedom to choose.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Superb all so far. I'll try and spoil it (and I don't have to try hard to dump on a thread ...) Freedom, what freedom? CHOICE? What choice?
We are incredibly, pathetically constrained in our autonomy in God whom we cannot experience except in our stories. As Jack said, we exist by God's choice and the rest is up to Him in us in Him. And that is a species long process. The only thing we didn't make up is Jesus. And He had to make it all up.
I want to be kind. To encourage.
I fail miserably, without even trying (see above) to be nasty. I'm helpless in privilege that I didn't choose.
I failed a guy on the street this morning coming back from my flu shot. I know him well. He just needed to talk inconsequentialities. We passed my door and I didn't invite him in, as I do have man flu (and yeah, flu shots make it EVEN worse!) was my excuse and the missus needed breakfast. He just needed some unconditional love. Some attention. I could abandon a puppy in a box on his doorstep I suppose. Or just hug the bugger. He wouldn't like it.
I used to say something here a lot and I forgot, became distracted and it comes back thanks to this thread. There is no meaningful freedom or choice. There is suffering. How is the best way to live until it's over? Eudaimonism for others? The thing I used to say was that if you're in the creation business, it's going to hurt EVERYONE concerned. No choice.
A group of us are trying to help another guy who cannot be helped and it's not his fault AT ALL. We just can't. I just hope he ends up in a mental care unit rather than a ditch. Where he is already but not dead yet.
I've no idea why God had to do it this way. The alternative is angels. That didn't work out too well. So far. They didn't have choice either. Now they know and there's no way back. So far.
Choice eh? Freedom. Is that something God has?
One thing I KNOW, Kindness NEVER gives up. Ever.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Interesting.
There is a dimension of Christian belief which says we can only be free if we are first captives. As in the hymn "Make me a captive Lord and then I shall be free".
We are free only to choose the chains that will bind us.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Freedom is living on a desert Island with all the food and water you need.
Freedom from war, oppression, neighbour disputes, criminality, having to go to work, general hassle etc. etc.....
Oh my God I'm lonely, I'm trapped, I am not free.
Thus proving that "Freedom" is a relatively silly word.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
God, for me, is the Great Allower. God allows us to do what we will, even as God may well weep over what we do with our wills.
That means bad things happen. Bad things happen all the time. And sometimes things that we at first think are bad turn out to be opportunities for change and growth; if we give those events that power.
My experience is that God is not the Great Micro Manager. God does not hear a prayer and then change the course of the physical universe to accommodate that prayer. God is not some cosmic vending machine.
On the other hand, God is always there, offering hope and guidance if we are willing to take it and only if we are willing to take it.
God allowed me to make a right mess of my life, and that was when I finally allowed the events of my life to give me the power to surrender my ego and my will to reality - to the NOW - to God. When I am actually surrendering my ego I find myself bathed in a serenity and freedom from want (from Dukkha, if you will).
I think much of my suffering was self imposed. As in I could not be happy unless . . . I knew the way things should be so "X" must change for me to be happy.
Well, all that was bullshit. The world is going to be the way it is. We are captives of reality whether we like it or not. What God can do is provide a cessation of the need for the world to be a different way and a concomitant freedom from unhappiness.
Is that freedom? For me it is. It is freedom from the captivity into which I placed myself. It is not freedom from God. That is fine. I do not want freedom from God. I want to see and recognize God in my life because that is where my true serenity lies.
Sorry to go on so.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I don't know what people mean when they say God gives us freedom to choose or reject love. That isn't a good description of reality. Many mothers and fathers love their newborn and their growing child not because they choose love, it's just a common (not universal) automatic part of the whole process of pregnancy and birth.
Adult people fall in love with another without choosing to.
So for love to be the central issue it would have to be an unemotional love, but from the wordings of the prophets, God compares his love for us with a husband longing for his wife, not as unemotional duty.
We have some, but limited, freedom to choose what we do, but we are born with differing talents, different physical and mental limits, born into different circumstances, that severely restrict our range of choice.
I read once the one specific freedom we have is how we choose respond to circumstances. Even that doesn't seem to work universally, can a person with severe Alzheimer's or in a coma choose their responses to anything?
I feel like I'm missing some basic understanding when I read comments like "the reason bad stuff happens is because God gives us freedom, so we can choose love."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
'Freedom' seems to me to be a choice. The image of the prisoner who decides to remain in the 'security' of their cell, although the door is open and they have been told they are free to go, comes to mind.
'Love' seems also to be a choice, it certainly isn't inflicted nor guaranteed, but it is a choice that, like 'freedom' is made real by action.
We can decide we have no genuine autonomy, that it's all programmed through our genes, or by 'God's will'---but such thinking makes a mockery of 'Love'.
Personally, I'm working on the basis that John's assertion that, 'God is Love' is fundamentally true, and trying to work from that foundation.
But then we seem to be 'free' to choose other foundations, and to see where they take us.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
If God sustains us in existence, then we can never be free to exist without God's sustaining power.
Interesting use of if. quote:
So freedom in that sense is nonexistence (interesting side topic regarding freedom from God and hell).
Regarding freedom of will, it is precisely because God sustains our existence and nature that we have the freedom to choose.
Only if the if you mentioned earlier is true. I am not so sure that it is something we can take for granted.
Paul used the term, "In whom we live and move and have our being," but it being incorporated into formal prayers notwithstanding, he was not quoting scripture but Greek poets in order to debate with the philosophers of the Areopogus in Athens.
As this idea does not exist in the rest of Paul's preaching in Acts, or in his letters that we have in the Bible, I don't think we can actually say that if we were free from God then we would not exist. The closest the Old Testament goes is Job 12:10, "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." Which does not go as far as living, moving and having being, and in any case is also part of a debate.
But that is me talking like an Evangelical: If it isn't explicit in the Bible then it isn't true. Which is on philosophical thin ice. But I think we need to explore this idea that if we were free from God we would cease to exist. I don't think the idea is that sound.
But staying with a Pauline theme, the idea is that we are set free to love - something that a set of laws like the Jewish law, or any other set of laws, does not allow us to do. Being freed from the 'do this and don't do that' of law frees us to love. (It's in Galatians 5 around vv 12-15, but you need to read more for context.
So freedom, according to the apostle Paul is not only freedom from stuff, but we are set free in order to do other stuff.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If there's a God and She doesn't think us autonomous, She isn't God.
[ 03. October 2015, 15:19: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
balaam: The closest the Old Testament goes is Job 12:10, "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."
I thought there was something more or less like this in a Psalm too.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This is one of the questions which finally took me away from Christianity. I could never see how God could allow so much freedom, for example, to the Oregon killer, that it produced evil. I mean, stopping his free will is worse that people being killed. Is that right? So this is the best world possible.
Well, it's a ball-breaker for me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Have you seen so little of evil up till then?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
If God sustains us in existence, then we can never be free to exist without God's sustaining power.
Interesting use of if. quote:
So freedom in that sense is nonexistence (interesting side topic regarding freedom from God and hell).
Regarding freedom of will, it is precisely because God sustains our existence and nature that we have the freedom to choose.
Only if the if you mentioned earlier is true. I am not so sure that it is something we can take for granted.
Paul used the term, "In whom we live and move and have our being," but it being incorporated into formal prayers notwithstanding, he was not quoting scripture but Greek poets in order to debate with the philosophers of the Areopogus in Athens.
As this idea does not exist in the rest of Paul's preaching in Acts, or in his letters that we have in the Bible, I don't think we can actually say that if we were free from God then we would not exist. The closest the Old Testament goes is Job 12:10, "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." Which does not go as far as living, moving and having being, and in any case is also part of a debate.
But that is me talking like an Evangelical: If it isn't explicit in the Bible then it isn't true. Which is on philosophical thin ice. But I think we need to explore this idea that if we were free from God we would cease to exist. I don't think the idea is that sound.
That would more or less mean that once created, we are self existing in some albeit limited way. The idea of our dependence on God for our existence has been argued by scholastic philosophers when looking at the distinction between necessary and contingent existence as well as preached by Christian mystics like Meister Eckhart.
I don't think the rarity of Paul's reference to God sustaining us has much force unless it can be shown that it was especially relevant to topics in his Epistles but didn't get mentioned.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I believe that all "freedom" is limited and constrained. I don't think I've ever seen a human being in a state of perfect freedom. Surely the discovery of the subconscious tells us this? - we're all influenced by how we've interacted with the world since the day we were born, or even before. And not only our subconscious, but our genes constrain us, in ways we neither realise nor understand.
We are tied to a thousand and one things by invisible elastic bands which, however long they are, will soon begin to tug at us when we try to assert ourselves against them. That, I believe, is one of the essential features of human life.
The best we can ever hope for in life, I think, is to recognise these limits, and perhaps sever or stretch a few.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Belle Ringer:
quote:
I don't know what people mean when they say God gives us freedom to choose or reject love.
I agree with everything you say, and I would go further and say quote:
I don't know what people mean when they say God ( . . insert platitude here . . ).
if we make God so fundamental that he is everything to us, then he sort of becomes nothing to us. We surely can't end up believing that Hitler could only kill 6 million Jews with the help and support of God, and couldn't have done a thing without him. But some seem to be heading there.
We do have limited freedom. What does it add to say that God gives it?
Incidentally, one of my heroes (Richard Holloway) more or less believed that it was pointless to remain a christian once he lost the ability to say anything meaningful about God. I don't. It seems fairly natural. The proponents of the via negativa have been doing it for years.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Excellent OP. I have encountered (especially in my dark years spent in Evangelical circles) many people who are theological determinists. These same people use the kind of language that Boogie is querying:' freedom in Christ Jesus', etc. Of course many of them don't say that they are determinists, but in the next breath say things like 'God has always known about you and had a (good?) plan for you'. In which case, there is no freedom whatsoever. You are merely a witness to the unfolding of God's plan which not only has he planned, but already knows its conclusion. It's a nonsensical approach, but it is common. Whatever it is, it isn't any kind of 'freedom'.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
if we make God so fundamental that he is everything to us, then he sort of becomes nothing to us. We surely can't end up believing that Hitler could only kill 6 million Jews with the help and support of God, and couldn't have done a thing without him. But some seem to be heading there.
It depends on what you mean by 'help and support of God'. If you mean God wanted it to happen, or it was God’s moral will, then absolutely not. However, if you mean that everything which exists only does so because of God’s sustaining power, then yes. Hitler required God's ontological support as a contingent reality.
There are a number of passages in the Hebrew Bible which would support the idea that God is in some sense responsible for evil.
Whether the universe requires God’s sustaining power or not, if he created it ex nihilo or shaped pre-existing matter, he made Hitler possible. I don’t think you could argue moral responsibility or implications for God with one model but not the others.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, He's FULLY responsible all right. And will therefore make it ALL right.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think we're more like people than like dogs. Sorry, Boogie.
God allows us to make choices that go against Her will. This is what "freedom" in the context of this thread means. It is quite clear we have it. The example of Hitler should make that clear (not the only example of course but doubtless the most common example of "God allows evil" in these kinds of discussions, as already seen).
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
mousethief, I was using dogs as an example of total dependence. Over millennia we have made what was a wild animal complexity dependant on us, to our mutual benefit.
If we can't live or breathe or have our being without God, how are we free?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
mousethief, I was using dogs as an example of total dependence. Over millennia we have made what was a wild animal complexity dependant on us, to our mutual benefit.
If we can't live or breathe or have our being without God, how are we free?
Free enough to kill 6 million Jews.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Free enough to do all sorts of stuff. But, as many kids say at some stage "I didn't choose to be born".
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Free enough to do all sorts of stuff. But, as many kids say at some stage "I didn't choose to be born".
Totally irrelevant -- we are free in some ways and not in others. The question is "in what ways does God give us freedom?" I have answered that. Freedom to make decisions for good or for evil. That we are not free to choose not to be born does not negate that. It's an area where we are not free. That doesn't mean there are no areas where we are.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
-- we are free in some ways and not in others. The question is "in what ways does God give us freedom?" I have answered that. Freedom to make decisions for good or for evil. That we are not free to choose not to be born does not negate that. It's an area where we are not free. That doesn't mean there are no areas where we are.
How free are we even then? Some people are brought up in a happy homes with good parents - it's so much easier for them to chose good pathways. What of those abused and thrown into evil company at a young age, they may have choice - but it's a totally unfair playing field for them.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Isn't this what Heidegger talked about, the difference between Geworfenheit and Entwerfen of our Dasein?
(I'm totally out of my league here ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Sorry Hosts, I know I need to translate these words and I would if I could. I think Geworfenheit means something like "thrownness", Entwerfen something like "design" and Dasein something like "being there". I think this refers to the fact that some things in life just come over us, and in some things we can choose. But undoubtedly a philosopher will come along shortly to say that I'm completely and utterly wrong.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What choice, what freedom did Hitler have?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
Surely if we are essentially nothing more than 'automata' then 'love' has no useful meaning, so the whole 'Gospel' becomes pointless, as does any idea of 'God', regardless of whether God is or is not.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
-- we are free in some ways and not in others. The question is "in what ways does God give us freedom?" I have answered that. Freedom to make decisions for good or for evil. That we are not free to choose not to be born does not negate that. It's an area where we are not free. That doesn't mean there are no areas where we are.
How free are we even then? Some people are brought up in a happy homes with good parents - it's so much easier for them to chose good pathways. What of those abused and thrown into evil company at a young age, they may have choice - but it's a totally unfair playing field for them.
Are you saying we're automatons, completely molded by our environments, so that at no point do we ever make a decision that is morally culpable, or indeed is not completely predetermined by every event leading up to it? If you are, then that's an understandable philosophical position, and we just disagree. If you are not, then you admit we do have some freedom, within the circumstances we find ourselves.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Doesn't this discussion bring up the 3 omnis, or coulda, shoulda, woulda?
It seems that under the 3 omnis, the free will of the evil person is more important than almost anything, certainly more important than the victims.
A Christian acquaintance of mine keeps telling me how God often reminds him where his car is parked (as he forgets), so I asked him, couldn't he have also have warned the Orgeon victims?
Ah, that's different. That would impugn their free will also. There's something morally bizarre about this.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you are not, then you admit we do have some freedom, within the circumstances we find ourselves.
Yes, we have some freedom to choose our reactions to our circumstances. But how is that related to love?
If God were kinder to us, would he not nudge things here or there to prevent atrocities and cause us to suffer less? We don't have much freedom, so a little less wouldn't hurt us and would alleviate so much pain.
Once again, I'm not talking about God indulging us - just being a little kinder. If God were kind he would have nudged things so that my Mum died two years before she did. There was nothing good which came out of her suffering. Much suffering is like this - pointless in the extreme.
As I said in the OP, we can never be un-dependent on God (as it's God we rely on for absolutely everything) so I still have the question 'Why set us free?' We are not free.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
mousethief, I was using dogs as an example of total dependence. Over millennia we have made what was a wild animal complexity dependant on us, to our mutual benefit.
{TANGENT}Dogs are totally dependant?
So no domesticated dogs ever go feral and survive?
You may think dogs are totally dependant, but the evidence is against you.[/TANGENT]
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
We are not free.
What would you do differently if you were free?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
We are not free.
What would you do differently if you were free?
I'm not asking to be free, I'm asking that we are less free and God intervenes more.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
mousethief, I was using dogs as an example of total dependence. Over millennia we have made what was a wild animal completely dependent on us, to our mutual benefit.
{TANGENT}Dogs are totally dependant?
So no domesticated dogs ever go feral and survive?
You may think dogs are totally dependant, but the evidence is against you.[/TANGENT]
Feral is not wild - they still depend on us being careless with our leftovers. In Russia feral dogs have learned to use public transport to come into the cities to scavenge and beg.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
We are not free.
What would you do differently if you were free?
I'm not asking to be free, I'm asking that we are less free and God intervenes more.
Yes, that's it. There is supposed to be a good reason why God does not intervene to stop evil. Free will is one possible reason.
But you end up with a strange moral state of affairs, whereby the Oregon killing (as an example), is for the best. God could stop it, but has a good reason not to.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm not asking to be free, I'm asking that we are less free and God intervenes more.
What would that look like?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
quote:
What would that look like?
Exactly, where should God draw the line? Me stubbing my toe on the uneven paving slab; the kid running out into the oncoming car; the flu?
From our point of view, at least, it seems to be an all or nothing situation, and if God does 'intervene' perhaps it's not generally in the way we tend to think. Our point of view is hardly objective by any stretch of the imagination.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alisdair:
quote:
What would that look like?
Exactly, where should God draw the line? Me stubbing my toe on the uneven paving slab; the kid running out into the oncoming car; the flu?
From our point of view, at least, it seems to be an all or nothing situation, and if God does 'intervene' perhaps it's not generally in the way we tend to think. Our point of view is hardly objective by any stretch of the imagination.
That almost seems to be saying that because God could always intervene, he never does. It makes me wonder how an omni God operates then? By allowing evil so that a greater good flows? Hmm.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Apart from in the first circle around Jesus, there is no evidence that God intervenes at all, apart from in the big three: matter, life and mind. In decreasing order of probability.
If She could do better She would.
And where was Hitler's (internal) moral failure? Where is IS'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
The question is what do we think God should do about the choices we make? On the face of it it's a man nailed to a cross, i.e. 'I'm not going to stand back and turn my back, and I'm not going to stand back and wave a magic wand, especially not to suit your idea of who I am, but I will join you---all glory cast aside'.
What is it that we want from God? Isn't that issue exactly what Jesus faced: those who turned away from him because he didn't do what they wanted, wasn't what they expected; those who set out to destroy him because he so offended their view of 'God', 'justice', 'holiness', and 'forgiveness'?
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
How free are we even then? Some people are brought up in a happy homes with good parents - it's so much easier for them to chose good pathways.
No doubt. But if there is no freedom then there is no praiseworthiness in those brought up in crappy circumstances choosing good pathways. It's just a quirk in their genes or situation, is all.
quote:
What of those abused and thrown into evil company at a young age, they may have choice - but it's a totally unfair playing field for them.
Doubtless it is unfair. Horribly unfair. The question in this thread is freedom, however, not fairness. Although the latter is a good and important question, it's not the topic at hand. Lack of fairness does not prove lack of freedom.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you are not, then you admit we do have some freedom, within the circumstances we find ourselves.
Yes, we have some freedom to choose our reactions to our circumstances. But how is that related to love?
I am answering the question, "In what ways does God give us freedom?" The title of the thread, and all.
How that's related to love is another, much harder question. But it was not the one I was answering. I have given my answer to the question "In what ways does God give us freedom?" I did not claim that answer also answers the love question. I think we must just agree to disagree. I believe there is freedom amid admittedly (subjectively) crappy circumstances. You believe there is not.
It seems you want the thread to be about theodicy, not freedom.
[ 04. October 2015, 17:52: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
And I would ask, if God steps in and prevents people from doing evil, in what way does that make us more free?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alisdair:
quote:
What would that look like?
Exactly, where should God draw the line? Me stubbing my toe on the uneven paving slab; the kid running out into the oncoming car; the flu?
It would look kinder, more loving.
Pain is necessary. Stubbing your toe helps you to learn to be more careful, kids need to learn road safety from us. Microbes are necessary and there are as many which are 'friendly' to us as 'unfriendly'.
Death is necessary, I completely agree. But long drawn out, awful painful death which is like torture? No. A kinder God would make sure the dying died days or weeks sooner than they do.
Why allow psychopaths and sociopaths? Why not intervene in those horribly catastrophic neural pathways.
If s/he could then I can't see any reason on Earth why s/he wouldn't.
Martin60 - why do you think God can't intervene?
[ 04. October 2015, 18:01: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And I would ask, if God steps in and prevents people from doing evil, in what way does that make us more free?
It doesn't, it makes us more protected, more dependent. But as we are dependent anyway (for everything) why not?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And I would ask, if God steps in and prevents people from doing evil, in what way does that make us more free?
It doesn't, it makes us more protected, more dependent.
More coddled, less image-bearers of God, more dog-like, less human.
quote:
But as we are dependent anyway (for everything) why not?
Because we believe that God, for whatever reason, wants us to love him as humans, not as dogs.
Even you want your children to be less like dogs and more like independent humans. You seem to want for them a freedom you think God should not want for us.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Alisdair wrote;
The question is what do we think God should do about the choices we make? On the face of it it's a man nailed to a cross, i.e. 'I'm not going to stand back and turn my back, and I'm not going to stand back and wave a magic wand, especially not to suit your idea of who I am, but I will join you---all glory cast aside'.
I like this. It offers me a God of weakness, and not of strength, and isn't this part of the magnificence of the Christian story, that it isn't magnificent, but a ruin?
But as to waving a magic wand, God would do that if it was good, no? Ditto casting aside glory, this must lead to a greater good.
But maybe only then can I exist. With a magic wand, and great glory, I would not.
Isn't this one of the solutions to divine hiddenness, that God not hidden, would disintegrate me?
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
quote:
Death is necessary, I completely agree. But long drawn out, awful painful death which is like torture? No. A kinder God would make sure the dying died days or weeks sooner than they do. - Boogie
Doesn't that lead to a very dangerous and terrible situation where effectively we are oppressed by God's presence, and deprived of the essential freedom as to whether we even believe God is, let alone trust God?
It's the 'big brother' scenario, and still doesn't address your concern, and my question: @Where should God draw the line?' The line if it's drawn must always be arbitrary. If suffering/death is ended today, why not the day before, or the day after; if this injury/disease, why not that one, and so on, ad infinitum. it's a horrendous prospect, and we would always be blaming God, which we do anyway, but now we would have good grounds. And, of course we would take even less responsibility for our actions because, of course, God will step in and smooth out the bumps.
My father has just died a 'long drawn out death' (several months), it wasn't pleasant, although pain did not, I think, feature largely in the unpleasantness. Perhaps he wished it would have all been over quickly, and we may have wished the same, but was that all it was---unpleasant? I don't know, it was my father's death, and his alone. I see death regularly in my work, almost daily. I see some people making a real bitter angry meal out of apparently relatively little suffering, I see others demonstrating inspiring grace and even humour in the face of horrible symptoms, and I see everything in between. All I can say is that I think I am learning from others; I hope it will serve me well when my time comes. I will be very disappointed (I guess figuratively) if death turns out to have the final say, but I do think I have a choice, and that the freedom to choose is dependant on real and profound Love.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Great stuff, although I can hear my atheist friends saying, that if God is so careful not to intervene, so as not to oppress us, it's almost as if he didn't exist!
It also seems to offer an omni God who isn't really omni in practice. I can make this sacrifice, so that you can live (that's not me speaking).
[ 04. October 2015, 19:53: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Great stuff, although I can hear my atheist friends saying, that if God is so careful not to intervene, so as not to oppress us, it's almost as if he didn't exist!
It also seems to offer an omni God who isn't really omni in practice. I can make this sacrifice, so that you can live (that's not me speaking).
I think that's exactly right. God sacrificing her Omnipotence to allow us space to (a) exist, and (b) operate as (relatively) independent deciders. The divine condescension, which reached its apex (or nadir) with the Incarnation. There's a word for it that starts with a "K" but I"m not coming up with it.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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