Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: A House of Prayer
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
So much effort is made to make money to maintain and improve church buildings, whatever the denomination, that on a recent trawl around several churches, including one supposedly evangelical and 'on fire', they came across more as cafes than houses of prayer.
I understand that we can reach out to people and get money from them by drawing them in for drinks, and to admire the buildings, but don't we want churches to be seen as houses of prayer first and foremost?
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
Buildings only really have theological significance in the Catholic tradition, though.
-------------------- "Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
Location has a wider Gospel significance though - going somewhere away from your normal routine to listen to God. That needn't be church, but for a London like me, church is one such place.
-------------------- And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
A church which is going to be open for a purpose other than worship, I think certainly needs somewhere set aside for it.
-------------------- "Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
If a church building is being used to run a food bank, provide facilities for AA groups or youth activities, lunches for elderly folk etc ... is that also not worship?
Of course, provision of a place of quiet where people can come and take a break from the rat race is also a valuable service to the community. Whether there's space for both is going to depend upon the size of the building of course. But, these days, you're more likely to find a quiet side chapel in a church that's running other activities than a church that isn't - simply because if there's no particular activity happening the church will probably be locked.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
Related but not the same, no. Of course, it's going to be a somewhere small - often the sanctuary area of the church is glassed off from a multi-use nave.
-------------------- "Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
I'm with those who think a church should be well used 7 days a week, whether it's for food banks, programs for at-risk youth, senior centers, whatever. That is indeed part of our worship.
And yes, there should absolutely be space for prayer. But what would that be? Is that a huge sanctuary with soaring ceilings and stained glass windows? A small, plain chapel with a few Bibles and few distractions? A beautiful garden with benches to pray while observing the beauty of creation? A coffee bar or pub where two Christian friends can share their journey and struggles in a relaxed setting? Or a classroom filled with small children joyfully playing? Any of these could be a "house of prayer."
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Maintaining a beautiful building costs a ton of money and is a major headache. Trust me, I know. A glorified pole barn with a brick facade isn't aesthetically pleasing but it's cheap to buy and maintain.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
While I agree that worship includes service to others, prayer is something else. A place of prayer has an atmosphere all of its own, one which may carry through generations. Istm that a church without this atmosphere is lacking.
I wonder why some have it and some don't. It certainly can't be said that only those of one denomination or style do. It was noticeable to me however that where cafes were set up the atmosphere was not conducive to prayer.
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
As a churchwarden, every time I look at the stump on the south east corner of our the church I am graetful that the Edwardians never got round to raising the money to build the tower. But uses other than overt prayer and worship? Of course, if they are all part off a wider startegy- which needn't be themain aim of any given activvity, BTW- of ensuring that the church is open andknown and that people feel that it is 'their' place. And you do get opportunities for mission and ministry from that.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
Definitely engaged in good community work - 7 days a week, ideally - involving any people of good will, faith or no.
Christians do tend to need regular re-forming in the Lord, though, often through such worship as the daily office & the mass - seems a bit mad to deny them the use of the building for these things.
-------------------- "Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye: While I agree that worship includes service to others, prayer is something else. A place of prayer has an atmosphere all of its own, one which may carry through generations. Istm that a church without this atmosphere is lacking.
I wonder why some have it and some don't. It certainly can't be said that only those of one denomination or style do. It was noticeable to me however that where cafes were set up the atmosphere was not conducive to prayer.
I think you're elevating your own style of prayer above others. In my circles, coffee shops are often a gathering place for small groups or partners who meet to pray for one another. As I said above, a "place of prayer" will look very different for different people-- from a traditional sanctuary to a garden to a small "prayer closet". To assume that other churches don't value prayer the same way you do just because they pray in a different setting is, IMHO presumptuous and just a tad narrow-minded.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Vaticanchic: Definitely engaged in good community work - 7 days a week, ideally - involving any people of good will, faith or no.
Christians do tend to need regular re-forming in the Lord, though, often through such worship as the daily office & the mass - seems a bit mad to deny them the use of the building for these things.
If done properly, the one needs the other.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: I think you're elevating your own style of prayer above others. In my circles, coffee shops are often a gathering place for small groups or partners who meet to pray for one another. As I said above, a "place of prayer" will look very different for different people-- from a traditional sanctuary to a garden to a small "prayer closet". To assume that other churches don't value prayer the same way you do just because they pray in a different setting is, IMHO presumptuous and just a tad narrow-minded.
No, I'm not elevating any style of prayer, nor am I assuming that some don't value prayer, nor that any particular setting is the right one. It's a shame if a simple observation from a recent experience comes across as a narrow minded presumptuous criticism to you. I wonder why.
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
Part of the problem is when something that starts as a house of prayer becomes a place of cultural heritage. We then get confused and start thinking of the religion as being inherently part of our culture.
I'm very uncomfortable with churches that charge for admittance to the building (Ely and St Paul's cathedral jump to mind) and those who spend a disproportionate amount of their income on building maintenance, though often there is a large amount of overlap between the two.
I sometimes wonder whether it would be worthwhile to do a sale and leaseback to a body like the National Trust, so that worry about the care of the building would pass to a heritage organisation while the church can still have everyday use of the building for church activities, including prayer, sung worship, preaching, food banks, etc. as well as being a community centre for things like jumble sales and dance classes if time permits.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: I think you're elevating your own style of prayer above others. In my circles, coffee shops are often a gathering place for small groups or partners who meet to pray for one another. As I said above, a "place of prayer" will look very different for different people-- from a traditional sanctuary to a garden to a small "prayer closet". To assume that other churches don't value prayer the same way you do just because they pray in a different setting is, IMHO presumptuous and just a tad narrow-minded.
No, I'm not elevating any style of prayer, nor am I assuming that some don't value prayer, nor that any particular setting is the right one. It's a shame if a simple observation from a recent experience comes across as a narrow minded presumptuous criticism to you. I wonder why.
I apologize if I'm misinterpreting your comments. I understood you as saying that because some churches have cafes or coffee shops they don't have a "house of prayer" or don't value that. I understood those comments as suggesting that you envision a certain type or style of environment that is "conducive to prayer" and that because those churches don't have that sort of environment, they don't value prayer. If I misunderstood what you meant, could you clarify please?
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sipech: ... I sometimes wonder whether it would be worthwhile to do a sale and leaseback to a body like the National Trust, so that worry about the care of the building would pass to a heritage organisation while the church can still have everyday use of the building for church activities, including prayer, sung worship, preaching, food banks, etc. as well as being a community centre for things like jumble sales and dance classes if time permits.
Part of me agrees with that, but I'm fairly sure that if we handed over our churches to some historic buildings organisation, they'd stop us from doing anything worthwhile in them ever again. They'd soon even be looking at the services as 'heritage' and telling us we'd got to have all services 1662.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: They'd soon even be looking at the services as 'heritage' and telling us we'd got to have all services 1662.
So little different from the conservative end of Church of England, then!
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I can't see why a church building can't be a place of prayer and a place of cultural heritage at one and the same time, Sipech.
I can think of plenty of examples of church buildings that function as both.
Although I'm with you on a sense of unease about paying for admission to churches and cathedrals.
But as Beeswax Altar has said, beautiful and historic buildings are fiendishly expensive to maintain. I know one 'new church' congregation that has recently moved out of its 'listed' building having found it an encumbrance and trying to sell it for the best part of a decade.
I think that with some imagination it is possible to adapt some historic church buildings - and there's a good example in a village near Leominster in Herefordshire where the village shop and post office has been located at the back of the ancient parish church - without in any way compromising the atmosphere. There is a mezzanine area above for small group meetings and local community use - every one wins.
I understand there are around 12 churches across the UK which also double as post offices.
I'm all in favour of shared use. I'm also a sucker for old church buildings and cathedrals and if there are imaginative ways of conserving them in a way that meets both church, wider community and indeed cultural heritage 'use' then all to the good.
As for the cafe style - I've not seen what Raptor Eye has in mind so I can't comment. I don't find the kind of 'warehouse' look favoured by some charismatic evangelical groups particularly conducive to worship or anything else for that matter ... but agree with Cliffdweller that people are drawn to different things.
People do develop their own habits and 'traditions' though. I like to sit quietly in my garden or looking out at it but when it comes to my daily devotions (if that's the right word) I tend to use the same spot in our spare-room/study where I've got a desk, some icons and prayer books etc.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: I'm fairly sure that if we handed over our churches to some historic buildings organisation, they'd stop us from doing anything worthwhile in them ever again. They'd soon even be looking at the services as 'heritage' and telling us we'd got to have all services 1662.
As far as I can see the congregations (C of S) which worship in the (former) cathedrals in Glasgow and in Dunblane seem to operate just like other congregations, although the buidlings are crown property looked after by Historic Scotland.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Heh heh heh ...
What? You mean that there are churches who don't use 1662?
Seriously, I'm not sure heritage organisations would make such a stipulation. They might object, though, if you tried to install a whopping big multi-media screen or remove some fixtures and fittings.
There is a balance between 'archaelogy' and living tradition, though. I once attended a 17th century style service in the marvellous but redundant St John the Evangelist church in Leeds - with its magnificent Jacobean screen and pews.
It was great - but it felt rather like a 'reconstruction' or re-enactment ... rather like a Sealed Knot or English Civil War Society event - although it wasn't conducted in 17th century dress but in contemporary 'cathedral' style.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Even St Paul's doesn't charge for admission to services though, and I think also one of the side-chapels for private prayer? I don't know what it is like for other cathedrals that charge for entry but I haven't been charged for admission to services at Canterbury cathedral.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
|
Posted
Not all churches meet in church buildings. Many meet in community spaces (e.g. Community centres or schools) that are used for totally different purposes through the week. The building or hall becomes a house of prayer because of how it is used on, say, a Sunday morning. The rest of the week it maybe a cafe, Foodbank, CAB, sports hall, etc. I'm not sure I see the distinction between that and a church with a building that chooses to open it's doors to lots of community activities or services throughout the week?
-------------------- Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: As for the cafe style - I've not seen what Raptor Eye has in mind so I can't comment. I don't find the kind of 'warehouse' look favoured by some charismatic evangelical groups particularly conducive to worship or anything else for that matter ... but agree with Cliffdweller that people are drawn to different things.
We meet in a warehouse because it is practically impossible to find an affordable building in Cambridge which seats 400 people, is fully accessible, provides space for our community activities and has an office. The building is entirely financed and owned by the congregation and I'm sure we'd love to have a beautiful old building in the city but I doubt whether we can get one in our price range.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
My church group (in the Netherlands) has its services in a beautiful old church building. The walls are visibly slanted through age, I like that a lot. It's not ours though, we rent it for our services. I think it belongs to some sort of society for the preservation of old buildings.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist: quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: As for the cafe style - I've not seen what Raptor Eye has in mind so I can't comment. I don't find the kind of 'warehouse' look favoured by some charismatic evangelical groups particularly conducive to worship or anything else for that matter ... but agree with Cliffdweller that people are drawn to different things.
We meet in a warehouse because it is practically impossible to find an affordable building in Cambridge which seats 400 people, is fully accessible, provides space for our community activities and has an office. The building is entirely financed and owned by the congregation and I'm sure we'd love to have a beautiful old building in the city but I doubt whether we can get one in our price range.
To add to this - beautiful old buildings are often not accessible, at least not in the UK. Does a building excluding some people because of this ever take away the 'house of prayer' atmosphere?
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pomona: Even St Paul's doesn't charge for admission to services
It does, actually. I'd heard that rumour and tried to get into an evensong once but they insisted I either pay a set fee to get into the service or leave. I left, shouting a paraphrase of Mark 11:17 at them over my shoulder.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I was part of a church for years which hired halls to meet in and also a member of a Baptist church which met in a school hall. I'm not knocking that. What I'm talking about are those large charismatic churches which can afford to build their own premises and then make them like aircraft hangers.
I'm not saying churches should always have old buildings.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
High Street Church, Isleham, Cambs, have been building a rather lovely looking place using traditional methods for the past few years. Unfortunately, AIUI the USAF is to leave Mildenhall and that will take away quite a lot of their members, so we'll have to see whether it gets completed.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye: No, I'm not elevating any style of prayer, nor am I assuming that some don't value prayer, nor that any particular setting is the right one. It's a shame if a simple observation from a recent experience comes across as a narrow minded presumptuous criticism to you. I wonder why.
I apologize if I'm misinterpreting your comments. I understood you as saying that because some churches have cafes or coffee shops they don't have a "house of prayer" or don't value that. I understood those comments as suggesting that you envision a certain type or style of environment that is "conducive to prayer" and that because those churches don't have that sort of environment, they don't value prayer. If I misunderstood what you meant, could you clarify please?
What you seem to have read into my comments was never in my mind. I'm very open to prayer of all kinds in environments of all kinds, prayer is always of value.
Having said that, if I call into a church I do have the preconceived idea in my mind that it is a house of God, synonymous with a place of prayer. It may be a foible of mine, but I like to pray when I call into an open church. It is good if I feel as if that's OK.
When calling into a church set up like a cafe, it feels almost rude to go and sit down somewhere and pray. In fact, on one occasion as I felt conspicuous, I quickly left. I started this thread to reflect on this whole idea, and as ever I've been given plenty of food for thought. Yes, it's good to use the buildings in all kinds of ways in service to God, but I think it important that there needs also to be an obvious place for prayer, so that those who call in to pray will feel welcome too.
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
(I just checked, our old church building is accessible to wheelchairs. Glad to know that.)
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Raptor Eye
I think many of us are conditioned to see cafes as secular space, and hence unsuitable for prayer. Some people do willingly pray anywhere, but that's not the cultural norm here.
Unfortunately, I can only see more and more 'traditional' church buildings closing due to lack of money and people lovingly prepared to maintain them. This being the case, Christians of the future who don't live conveniently near to a cathedral or some other solemn and important central church will have to get used to saying their public prayers in the same room as a cafe or a food bank, etc.
It should be said that some Muslims willingly pray in the middle of the street if they have to. I know it's a different religion with different prayer obligations, and that Muslims are often emboldened by numbers when they pray in this way, but Christians will surely be at a disadvantage in future if they only feel able to pray publicly at specific times in buildings or rooms reserved for the purpose. [ 21. July 2015, 20:44: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sipech: quote: Originally posted by Pomona: Even St Paul's doesn't charge for admission to services
It does, actually. I'd heard that rumour and tried to get into an evensong once but they insisted I either pay a set fee to get into the service or leave. I left, shouting a paraphrase of Mark 11:17 at them over my shoulder.
Unless they've changed the policy in the year since I stopped for the working the diocese they don't. (I can't speak for times long past either)
They do make you wait until they are ready to admit people to the service, and if you want to go before that you have to pay. And you can only get to the relevant part of the building for the service (so for Evensong, usually under the Done.)
In fact, they pack away the cash desks each evening between closing and Evensong, so that they can't charge you.
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: Raptor Eye
I think many of us are conditioned to see cafes as secular space, and hence unsuitable for prayer. Some people do willingly pray anywhere, but that's not the cultural norm here.
Unfortunately, I can only see more and more 'traditional' church buildings closing due to lack of money and people lovingly prepared to maintain them. This being the case, Christians of the future who don't live conveniently near to a cathedral or some other solemn and important central church will have to get used to saying their public prayers in the same room as a cafe or a food bank, etc.
It should be said that some Muslims willingly pray in the middle of the street if they have to. I know it's a different religion with different prayer obligations, and that Muslims are often emboldened by numbers when they pray in this way, but Christians will surely be at a disadvantage in future if they only feel able to pray publicly at specific times in buildings or rooms reserved for the purpose.
Again you seem to read into my words ideas that are not there. I can and do pray in many different ways: in the street, in the countryside, while watching TV, whenever and however. I don't only feel able to pray publicly at specific times in buildings or rooms reserved for the purpose. 'Publicly' here not necessarily meaning conspicuously.
Nor was I talking about special cathedral type buildings, the point applies as much in a very plain wooden building called a church as it does in any solemn and important central building. If it is a church, this implies that it is a house of God. If it is open, is it unreasonable to hope that it will be a place where I will feel welcome to call in and to pray?
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by TomM: quote: Originally posted by Sipech: quote: Originally posted by Pomona: Even St Paul's doesn't charge for admission to services
It does, actually. I'd heard that rumour and tried to get into an evensong once but they insisted I either pay a set fee to get into the service or leave. I left, shouting a paraphrase of Mark 11:17 at them over my shoulder.
Unless they've changed the policy in the year since I stopped for the working the diocese they don't. (I can't speak for times long past either)
They do make you wait until they are ready to admit people to the service, and if you want to go before that you have to pay. And you can only get to the relevant part of the building for the service (so for Evensong, usually under the Done.)
In fact, they pack away the cash desks each evening between closing and Evensong, so that they can't charge you.
Yes, that is how they do it (as does Canterbury cathedral). It is most definitely free to attend services and the website makes this very clear. I'm often in London in places where St Paul's is en-route, so regularly attend free services there.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[...] If it is a church, this implies that it is a house of God. If it is open, is it unreasonable to hope that it will be a place where I will feel welcome to call in and to pray?
Can you say precisely what it is that makes you feel welcome to pray in a particular place or not?
I'm aware that some churches can diffuse the sort of atmosphere in which public prayer outside of church services can seem excessively pious and unnatural. And when you consider that the fees and subsidies of non-Christians are helping to keep many church doors open then I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some church folk are a bit nervous of anything that might risk frightening non-religious visitors away.
If that's the vibe you get then you'll just have to time your visits differently, or go to some other church for your out-of-hours personal prayers.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Ely charge for admission (not to services) but, to their credit, state explicitly that no-one will ever be refused admission because they acnnot afford the price of entry. I get especially cross with places that charge and then claim that they have some kind of minsitry to their paying visitors (Canterbury, I'm looking at you, unless you've changed since I last walked past the Christ Church Gate.) If you have a ministry to visitors, open up to all comers. If you are charging, your paying visitors have a right to treat the place as if it were a museum. They are there to see the misericords and the tombs and the stained glass and your job is to ensure that they can do so- no less, no more. But to claim to offer some kind of ministry (as opposed to the performance of a specific rite or ceremony) only to those who can pay seems to me to be a species of simony.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Further note: only a minority of cathedrals and gerater churches charge- I think 9 in all in 2013, and that included St George's, Windsor, which is within the castle which you have to pay to enter.So how do the places that do charge justify it? Are the 30-something cathedrals that don't charge peculiarly fortunate in their endowments or in having small and easily maintained buildings? Chester got rid of its admission charges; while Winchester charges 9and says that in this it is 'like many other cathedralss', which is more or less a lie unless you think that six or seven is 'many') Salisbury strongly recommends a donation but doesn't actually charge (and lets you take your dog in!); York charges but Durham doesn't.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[...] If it is a church, this implies that it is a house of God. If it is open, is it unreasonable to hope that it will be a place where I will feel welcome to call in and to pray?
Can you say precisely what it is that makes you feel welcome to pray in a particular place or not?
I'm aware that some churches can diffuse the sort of atmosphere in which public prayer outside of church services can seem excessively pious and unnatural. And when you consider that the fees and subsidies of non-Christians are helping to keep many church doors open then I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some church folk are a bit nervous of anything that might risk frightening non-religious visitors away.
If that's the vibe you get then you'll just have to time your visits differently, or go to some other church for your out-of-hours personal prayers.
It's not easy to say precisely what makes us feel welcome or unwelcome anywhere, is it? There's an atmosphere. There is a place for us, or there isn't.
Is it an extraordinary desire, to be able to call into an open church when passing and to pray, without feeling as if I am intruding? Might it really be true, that I may frighten people away from a church by praying in it? That would imply that non- believers are more welcome than believers in some churches!
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: Further note: only a minority of cathedrals and gerater churches charge- I think 9 in all in 2013, and that included St George's, Windsor, which is within the castle which you have to pay to enter.So how do the places that do charge justify it? Are the 30-something cathedrals that don't charge peculiarly fortunate in their endowments or in having small and easily maintained buildings? Chester got rid of its admission charges; while Winchester charges 9and says that in this it is 'like many other cathedralss', which is more or less a lie unless you think that six or seven is 'many') Salisbury strongly recommends a donation but doesn't actually charge (and lets you take your dog in!); York charges but Durham doesn't.
Coventry used to strongly recommend donations but now charges - I don't know whether upkeep of the old cathedral is run by the new cathedral's staff or whether it is separate, and whether that plays a part in Coventry charging.
Westminster Cathedral is high in my estimation for many reasons but their refusal to charge admission is one of them.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote: Originally posted by Raptor Eye: No, I'm not elevating any style of prayer, nor am I assuming that some don't value prayer, nor that any particular setting is the right one. It's a shame if a simple observation from a recent experience comes across as a narrow minded presumptuous criticism to you. I wonder why.
I apologize if I'm misinterpreting your comments. I understood you as saying that because some churches have cafes or coffee shops they don't have a "house of prayer" or don't value that. I understood those comments as suggesting that you envision a certain type or style of environment that is "conducive to prayer" and that because those churches don't have that sort of environment, they don't value prayer. If I misunderstood what you meant, could you clarify please?
What you seem to have read into my comments was never in my mind. I'm very open to prayer of all kinds in environments of all kinds, prayer is always of value.
Having said that, if I call into a church I do have the preconceived idea in my mind that it is a house of God, synonymous with a place of prayer. It may be a foible of mine, but I like to pray when I call into an open church. It is good if I feel as if that's OK.
When calling into a church set up like a cafe, it feels almost rude to go and sit down somewhere and pray. In fact, on one occasion as I felt conspicuous, I quickly left. I started this thread to reflect on this whole idea, and as ever I've been given plenty of food for thought. Yes, it's good to use the buildings in all kinds of ways in service to God, but I think it important that there needs also to be an obvious place for prayer, so that those who call in to pray will feel welcome too.
I agree. I'm just not agreeing that churches that aren't set up in a way that feels comfortable to you-- or me-- for prayer are uncomfortable for everyone, and therefore are not committed to being a place for prayer. I'm not suggesting that you should pray in a place where you feel awkward or uncomfortable, just that we shouldn't assume that those places aren't committed to prayer, and that there aren't others who would like to pray in those places. I know plenty of people who are uncomfortable praying in quiet traditional cathedrals but will pray easily in a cafe or garden setting. And vice-versa as well, of course.
And of course, I can't comment on the particular church you visited that felt uncomfortable. It may be their priorities are different. As has been noted upthread, this is particularly a problem when the sanctuary is also a tourist destination. Here in California, we have that problem with our historic missions (most of which have now been decommissioned for that reason).
And again, apologies for any misrepresentation on my part. As other shipmates will no doubt attest, it isn't the first time I've misread a thread. [ 21. July 2015, 22:45: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Raptor Eye
Not all churches will be 'welcoming' places, unfortunately. Just like not all Christians are welcoming people.
IME there is indeed something of a clash between churches in their spiritual mode and churches in their need to rent out space to raise funds. Ideally, the renting of space will serve as good PR for the church's mission, but in many cases I think the need for money takes priority.
Plus, I imagine that churches that are taking funding from the state to run social programmes also have to be careful not to cause offense. [ 21. July 2015, 23:04: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: Not all churches will be 'welcoming' places, unfortunately.
That's unfortunately true. But, much more common is that not all churches will be welcoming places for all people. As said above, there are some people for whom a quiet space for personal prayer is something that is not what they need. A place to talk with others, over a coffee perhaps while the children play loudly in the corner, would be a more spiritual experience. I don't know about others, but for me when I pray on my own I don't feel any strong sense of connection with anyone (though I do find it a benefit to just stop for a while), whereas when I pray with others I feel connected to them and beyond them to God. On my own I don't hear God, I sometimes hear God speak back to me through the prayers and words of others.
If all churches offered was a quiet place for personal prayer there will be people who find that it's easier and more spiritual to meet to pray in the Starbucks across the road. Which is as much a problem as churches having no quiet space.
It seems a bit much to expect all churches to be able to provide the services that you would find beneficial for you, especially if in so doing they are unable to provide services for others.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I think it all depends on context and the ethos of the particular church community and tradition which uses the building.
I would guess that the church with the 'cafe style' arrangement wants to emphasise a sense of fellowship and community. Hence the lay-out. Rightly or wrongly, it may not have occured to them that there are people -like Raptor Eye or myself - who might quite like to sir awhile in quiet prayer and contemplation.
Equally, St Saviour's across the road may be great for that but not create space for more communal interaction - of the kind Alan Cresswell describes. It's another of these both/and rather than either/or things.
I also think it depends on where we are 'at' ourselves. At one time I would have relished the kind of small-group interaction Alan describes but now I avoid it like the plague - at least in the form it is available locally. You'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to a prayer meeting at our local parish. I'd far rather join the RCs for their lectio divina or stay at home and say the daily office and allow God to speak to be through the set prayer and lectionary readings - which I find he still does - albeit in subtly different ways than in my more full on evangelical days - not that I'm knocking that.
I wouldn't be too harsh on the cafe-style church for they know not what they do ...
Meanwhile, coming back to the 1662 - a lot of liberal places still use it - so it is hardly the province of conservative Anglicans. I don't often use it in my personal devotions but I did so yesterday, funnily enough and found it helpful.
I'd also suggest that with little outlay and some imagination even a warehouse or a school hall can temporarily be made slightly more 'atmospheric' if that's the right word.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
That's helpful, Gamaliel.
May I just make one point which, ISTM, some posters haven't quite recognised: that there are two kinds of church café.
One is basically an operation which exists to make money for the Church and, indeed, "keep the show on the road". At the extreme, this may mean an agreement with a commercial operator or catering company who rents the space or runs the café; or it may be largely run "in-house" with volunteers.
The other way of doing café is basically evangelistic and/or community building. This is not a commercial operation; it may be run exclusively by volunteers and even make a financial loss for the Church. However it aims to be a touching-point between church and world and may also be an important community resource.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pomona: Coventry used to strongly recommend donations but now charges - I don't know whether upkeep of the old cathedral is run by the new cathedral's staff or whether it is separate, and whether that plays a part in Coventry charging.
Westminster Cathedral is high in my estimation for many reasons but their refusal to charge admission is one of them.
Coventry has surprisingly high bills given how new the building is and donations were not covering the costs. I think the ruins are a lower cost, and there are monies coming in from Heritage and City funds to part cover it.
Canterbury - I think - has the highest income from entrance fees, but then must also have very high ongoing costs.
I don't really understand the objections to charging an entrance fee - particularly given that you don't have to pay to attend services (I think you might not even have to pay if you want to sit and pray in the Coventry nave, you certainly don't in the ruins) and much of Canterbury is free on Sunday afternoon.
How else are you expecting the costs to be covered?
-------------------- arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: That's helpful, Gamaliel.
May I just make one point which, ISTM, some posters haven't quite recognised: that there are two kinds of church café.
One is basically an operation which exists to make money for the Church and, indeed, "keep the show on the road". At the extreme, this may mean an agreement with a commercial operator or catering company who rents the space or runs the café; or it may be largely run "in-house" with volunteers.
The other way of doing café is basically evangelistic and/or community building. This is not a commercial operation; it may be run exclusively by volunteers and even make a financial loss for the Church. However it aims to be a touching-point between church and world and may also be an important community resource.
There is also something called "café church" which is a style of very informal church in the Baptist tradition, and possibly elsewhere. I'm not entirely clear which of these is being discussed above.
-------------------- arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure - and if it is the kind of informal church service you describe in the Baptist or any other tradition then that's fair enough -- I wouldn't 'complain' that such a service didn't allow space for individual, contemplative prayer as such -- because it's got a different purpose to it.
I'd no more complain about the absence of a 'dedicated space' in that context than I would complain that they weren't using incense say, or that there wasn't a priest or minister in robes or what-have-you -- because those wouldn't be right for that kind of style of service.
Just as, were I to attend High Mass at some spikey Gothic pile, I wouldn't complain at the absence of sofas, comfy seats and bean-bags ...
I suspect, from what Raptor Eye has written, though, that he's not describing a context where 'cafe-style' seating arrangements have been laid out for a particular informal style of service - but one where these are 'left out' as it were as a permanent fixture - and he finds that a distraction.
Would that be correct, Raptor Eye?
Meanwhile, as a good example of multi-style and flexible worship space, the Chapel at Keele University is a good example. It has hydraulic partitions and screens that can be raised or lowered to create different spaces or to facilitate different styles.
It also has - or used to have - a wonderful space in one of the projecting drum towers that you could use for private prayer and meditation -- and it had comfy cushions or a hard bench according to taste and you could 'bring your own' knick-knacks and material - meditation aids, books or whatever ...
It's also one of the least used buildings on campus ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Just a comment about "Café Church" - which, as Gamaliel implies, doesn't fall into either of my categories. I was thinking more of "church-run cafes".
"Café church", as it happens, doesn't have to take place in church buildings ... it can take place in cafes (I think Costa actively encourage it, as it gives them business at slack times).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure - which is one way of doing it ... it would certainly save on maintenance bills ... but it doesn't make a great deal of provision for the kind of quiet, contemplative prayer alluded to in the OP - but one could argue we've got houses and hillsides and parks and gardens for that.
Fair enough. It's the reductionism that bothers me to some extent. 'Let's hone everything down to the bearest minimum we can get away with ... no need for special buildings or clergy - let's go down to Costa and fellowship with our mates and that's sufficient ...'
Yeah, well, ok ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|