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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is a sermon for?
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I have trouble listening to sermons, I drift away to some extent at the best of them. When I think of how long it might have taken to prepare them, I feel a little ashamed to admit this truth, but there it is.
Is a sermon supposed to make a difference to me, to inspire me into action, to inform me, to make me feel a part of it all, to challenge me, to challenge those outside of the church I'm in (who, after all, cant hear it?), to try to make sense of the scripture reading, to try to make sense of what's happening in the world, to worship and praise God ......?
Perhaps it's all of these things, in general? But what specifically do you think a sermon is for? What impact if any should it have on those hearing it?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I don't think every sermon need have an impact on every listener. I think if a sermon helps one person love God or love their neighbour more, then that's a success. At times that one person can even be the preacher.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Those are not uninteresting questions. I know some ministers and congregations which make a distinction between "teaching" - seen as explaining the Bible and imparting knowledge of the faith - and "preaching", which they regard as more inspirational or devotional. I'm not sure if this is a useful distinction, for surely the preacher hopes to inform their hearers and derive inspiration and challenge from that information.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I have to say, even when I was preaching I was not convinced by the value of traditional preaching (in the sense of a talk delivered in the middle of a service). Even with very good preachers, I am not sure that the process is a good one for either communicating information or encouraging a congregation.
For me, I think churches should consider what they want the "sermon slot" to do - is it teaching, is it inspiration, is it information? Then they need to use that time to perform that task in the most appropriate way.
So if it is inspiration, then forget the depth of theology, it is a time to tell people how important they are. If it is teaching, then talk to people, identify what they need to know and teach in groups to engage with people. If it is information, then maybe a powerpoint presentation, available in printed form later.
Or whatever. The traditional preaching style has become outdated as other teaching styles have taken over. So many people now hold onto the "preaching" style as something distinctly "Christian". It isn't, it is just outdated.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
On my annual trip to church this Christmas Eve I found that the sermon had been replaced by a 'talk' in the order booklet. Is that a trend these days?
I tried to follow the vicar, but when she said that the shepherds were the Facebook of their day I switched off.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
A very good question indeed. And I sometimes wonder if the preacher knows the answer herself or himself.
I have heard excellent sermons. I have heard very poor sermons. But I can think of very few whose point I recall, indeed about which I recall anything (apart from maybe an amusing story) five minutes after it has ended.
That may say more about me than about the sermons I have heard, of course.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I want to be inspired.
Inspired to be a better person. I think the best sermons do this, but they are becoming rare, very rare.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Jenn.
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# 5239
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Posted
I try to lift peoples eyes beyond themselves, so that they glimpse the presence of God among them. I am not sure I ever succeed.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I feel both sympathy and admiration for preachers ... it's a hard call. How do you pitch something that will contain 'something' for everyone there on a Sunday morning or evening ... ?
For people who've been round the block so many times they're sermoned out ... for people who've hardly heard any sermons, for people with a good, basic grasp of the Christian narrative, for those with hardly any grasp at all ...
I'm afraid I'm like Raptor Eye - I tend to 'zone out' in sermons these days - no matter how good, bad or indifferent they are.
In fact, I'm not at all interested in sermons any more. I'd rather have the liturgy and nothing else.
Partly, I think, it's because I'm a contrary so-and-so and as soon as someone says something - anything - I'm immediately thinking of a counter-argument against it or looking for the loopholes ...
Perhaps it's Ship of Fools that has ruined the sermon for me ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I've become Debate Man ...
That said, even though these days I feel 'higher' in my spirituality than the Baptists tend to be, I've long said that the best and most memorable sermons I've heard have tended to be in Baptist settings here in the UK.
That isn't to say that all Baptist preaching is wonderful -- but at its best it manages to be both informative and inspirational at one and the same time. I've known several Baptist ministers who 'wear their learning lightly' - and who are able to present even quite complex theological ideas in an engaging way.
Sadly, I find Anglican sermons generally disappointing. I've heard some good cathedral sermons though ...
At the 'higher' end of things you at least know that all you're going to get is a very short homily. Some of the best preachers I've heard at that end of the candle are able to pack a lot in to a short space ... but by and large all you get are short musings that you could have easily mused for yourself at home ...
There's no easy answer, I don't think.
There is, I believe, a great need for good, solid, well-rounded preaching.
Step forward the preachers ...
We need you.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
Maybe it's important that we don't know and can't say what a sermon is for.
There are lots of good things it might be doing, most of which could be done better in other ways. I would describe it as an attempt at honesty in the presence of God's people and in relation to the liturgical calendar, scripture, news, and life of the congregation that provides a context.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
To my mind, a sermon exists primarily as a unifying symbol of tradition in any given (Protestant) church. There's been increasing doubt about the sermon for a while now, but I think the force of tradition is such that little can be done, regardless of the content or quality of modern preaching.
Unfortunately, the alternatives are problematic. The 'talk', as someone has said above, can be very lightweight. More controversially, I think relatively few British Christians are now receiving spiritual instruction from other sources. Some Christians have their small groups and Bible studies, and intellectual types read challenging books, have spiritual directors and go on retreats, but these represent a minority. For the rest of the churchgoing public, the loss of the sermon would probably represent yet more spiritual impoverishment.
(I realise that RCs and Orthodox Christians have other priorities in worship, so presumably this topic wouldn't be very meaningful to them.)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
There are some preachers who seem to spend ages presenting some thought which they think is profound but which is patently obvious and banal; there are others who seem to finish their sermons just as they're getting to the interesting bit and so leave one unsatisfied ....
I would hope that - at the very least - the preacher would present me with something that made me think a bit about some aspect of my faith. And (vide Gamaliel) the very best of them seem to have a way of communicating on several different levels at once.
[ 30. December 2015, 13:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I like what both hatless and Baptist Trainfan have said here ...
Context is everything.
I would suggest that the 'best' sermons occur when the particular conditions that both hatless and Baptist Trainfan have identified are in play ...
Namely, it 'fits' with the tenor and context of the particular congregation - whether they are following some kind of liturgical calendar or are passing on 'news' or addressing something topical and pertinent to them ...
And when, by some special alchemy, the sermon (and response?) is somehow greater than the individual sum of its constituent parts ...
Great preaching is like great poetry in that respect.
That doesn't mean that we should expect The Four Quartets or Paradise Lost every week ... nor that we couldn't benefit from Pam Ayres every now and again ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Sermoned-out, hymned-out and prayered-out me. What's left?
Apart from Communion of course.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I wouldn't like to think I'd ever get 'communioned' out ... but then, there'd still be the Quaker silence even if I did ...
Nor do I think that there is no longer a place for sermons. Baptist Trainfan's are very good. I've read one on-line and I'm sure the others are equally as good.
I do believe there is a role for preaching and it's the sort of thing you 'recognise' when you see it ... as hatless says, you can't easily define and 'distil' these things ...
We can't put a magic bottle on a shelf with a label on which says, 'Drink twice a day and your sermons will be fine ...'
On a tangent for a moment -- whilst I agree with SvitlanaV2 that RC and Orthodox sermons seem to operate in a different kind of way to Protestant ones ... I've found that whenever I've heard RC or Orthodox clergy speaking at inter-church conferences they don't sound in any way dissimilar to Protestant speakers at those same conferences ...
They even use Power-Point slides, crack jokes, use anecdotes etc.
Some do 'preach like Protestants' in their own services to a certain extent ...
What I've found from those particular traditions isn't so much pithy or thought-provoking things said in set-piece sermons as such - but some pithy and memorable remarks when introducing a Bible study or lectio-divina or something of that kind ...
Or something that resembles a scene in a Dostoyevsky novel ... 'It was said of St Zosimas, you know, that whenever he ...' etc etc
In fact, I've heard the same kind of points made in Orthodox sermons as I've heard in Protestant ones - only with examples/illustrations from hagiography or the Desert Fathers, say, rather than Moses, Samson, King David or some other OT character ... which would have been more likely in a Protestant setting.
It wasn't a sermon as such, but I was once blown away by a Bible study on the Transfiguration led by Bishop Kallistos Ware which he used to 'model' the Orthodox approach. He used an icon of the Transfiguration alongside the NT accounts - which he compared and contrasted in the sort of way Protestants would be familiar with ...
I can't quite put my finger on it, but 'that happened' if you know what I mean. We've all been there when 'that happens'.
Well, 'that' happened for me on that particular occasion.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Years ago I decided to try to discuss the sermon with friends at coffee, opening the conversation with "which point in the sermon do you think most important?"
Answer 1: I don't listen to sermons, I use that time to look around the hall and pick out people I think need prayer, and pray right then.
Answer 2: I don't listen to sermons, that's the time I plan my coming week.
Answer 3: I don't listen to sermons, I just sort of veg or daydream until it's over.
OTOH some Non-D friends choose a church by the sermon, wanting to be "fed" by a "meaty" 45 minute Bible-based sermon.
And I've visited a Black church where the preacher's sermon was well over an hour and I could have stayed for more, captivating sing-song
encouragement that tells the story and insists God loves YOU and punctuated with frequent "amen, brother!"
So it appears what a sermon is for depends on the culture of the specific church.
In mainline, I'm not sure it has a purpose that wouldn't be better served with ten minutes of silence, or of praying for the people near you in the pews.
I occasionally ask someone at lunch after church (when I don't go to church) "what was the sermon about?" and usually get some variation of "I don't know." But they can tell you the hymns.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Our sermons tend to be a meditation on the readings for the day, and encourage the listener to think more about certain topics in the coming week. If the reading contains ideas that the congregation might be uncomfortable with (Jesus talking about divorce, for instance,) the sermon will usually address that topic head on, and explain why our church teaches something different from what we heard in the reading.
Often, the tone of the sermon is changed by who is giving the sermon, and what their particular position is in the church. The Rector is far more likely to give a sermon about how our members might respond to a reading in the spirit of our mission statement. The Deacon is likely to show how a social issue addressed by Jesus is still a problem today in our neighborhood, or to highlight invisible social issues in the neighborhood. Our Curate is still learning how to deliver a great sermon, and part of our job, I think, is to be patient as she works through the commentaries and thoughts and themes that don't always tie together smoothly.
My brother, my parents, and I all attend different Episcopal churches, and part of our Sunday afternoon or Monday morning routine is telling each other about the sermon we heard. It's a good way to make sure that you pay attention, although there is no judgment if anyone admits that they can't remember a word of it.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sermoned-out, hymned-out and prayered-out me. What's left?
Apart from Communion of course.
Re-define "church." A walk in the woods, an art canvas and brush, sitting down with a homeless person and listening appreciatively to what he or she says; these can be church.
Or find/form a group that encourages its participants to actively fulfill who God made them each to be by bringing a song, a poem, a story or drawing or new-to-you understanding God finally got through your thick skull. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Get away from the traditional "conform, sit, do as you are told, avoid revealing any personality or creativity" style of church. It may work for some but it's spiritually deadly for others.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
A sermon is an act of worship. a meditation and a reflection on how the day's readings apply to daily living. More thoughts here.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sadly, I find Anglican sermons generally disappointing. I've heard some good cathedral sermons though ...
At the 'higher' end of things you at least know that all you're going to get is a very short homily. Some of the best preachers I've heard at that end of the candle are able to pack a lot in to a short space ... but by and large all you get are short musings that you could have easily mused for yourself at home ...
There's no easy answer, I don't think.
There is, I believe, a great need for good, solid, well-rounded preaching.
Step forward the preachers ...
We need you.
One advantage of Evensong is that the sermons are almost always very short, which means that my expectations are not too high. My problem in other settings has been to expect too much from the sermon. There's a high risk of disappointment afterwards.
Someone like yourself who gets around bit no doubt enjoys the opportunity to hear good sermons from many quarters. The problem is that most of us only attend our own church plus a few others in the ordinary church year (bar weddings and funerals). We're unlikely to get inspiring preaching from our pulpit regulars unless that's what they're known for.
Regarding the Methodists, it used to be said that the preaching plan encouraged some members to skip the weeks when an indifferent preacher was known to be coming. Perhaps this still happens. But despite the increasing size of Methodist circuits and the number of lay preachers who pass though, the quality of Methodist sermons is remarkably consistent. It would be unfair to say that Methodist preaching is somehow inadequate when the end result so obviously replicates an approved pattern in terms of style, form and content.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I think if a sermon helps one person love God or love their neighbour more, then that's a success. At times that one person can even be the preacher.
I'm sorry, but I think this is trite nonsense. I'm not saying it isn't a good thing if a sermon helps one person love God or their neighbor more. That's a very good thing, in fact. But in a sermon, you are addressing a specific gathering of the people of God, and your job is to say something that is relevant, inspiring, or challenging to that gathering. This is different from one-on-one pastoral care or private meditation. If the entire congregation is left wondering "what on earth was that about?" but you feel better at the end of the sermon, you missed the mark.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On a tangent for a moment -- whilst I agree with SvitlanaV2 that RC and Orthodox sermons seem to operate in a different kind of way to Protestant ones ...
I once read that there was a "sacramental" aspect to Protestant Nonconformist preaching which is quite different to what you'd expect in an Anglican or RC church. In other words, the "spiritual trajectory" of the service is different.
In (say) a Baptist church the sermon is the "high point" of the service. Even if there is Communion to follow (and there may well not be), you come "down" into that. Conversely in an Anglican church (unless they're are snake-belly Low) you are still going "up" through the sermon and climaxing with the Eucharist, assuming that it is a Eucharistic service.
This may have something to do with views of how people encounter God. In the Reformed tradition one predominantly seems to encounter Him through his Word, especially if the Lord's Table is primarily memorialist (and infrequent). In the Anglican or RC tradition you are more expectant of meeting God through some kind of "Presence" at the Eucharist.
Or so it seems to me ...
[ 30. December 2015, 15:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Perhaps it's Ship of Fools that has ruined the sermon for me ...
I've become Debate Man ...
For me, it is not debate I want, it is discussion. I want to be listened to, and, if someone is going to tell me what they believe, I want to know why, and I want to be able to challenge this and be responded to.
I don't want someone "encouraging" me, unless they have first heard why I am discouraged. I don't want someone trying to explain how I should live my faith out in the 21st century when they have no idea how I already live in the 21st Century. Or, as so often, they have no idea how to live in the 21st Century, because they are completely stuck in a 19th century version of their faith.
I do find a problem with other peoples sermons, because they are not the message I would preach from them. So I tend to spend my time thinking about what I would preach from the same starting point. So I have my own internal discussion.
So yes, sermoned out, churched out.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Very interesting thread. I haven't attended church for a long time of course and therefore haven't heard a sermon! However, I wonder whether they have lost out to all the other means of obtaining advice, help and encouragement, etc. In earlier times - and that includes my early years - the church service was part of the week's entertainment! There must be fewer and fewer people who, needing some help and personal advice, would choose to go to the local priest, as there are other services available on the phone, on line, etc.
I go to Humanist group meetings when there will be a speaker whose talk I believe will be interesting and informative. I think if vicars announced the subject of the next sermon, quite a few would check it out on various forms of communication , so that they might well decide to miss the sermon, plus the service. I try to go out for a longer walk on Sunday mornings, which I am sure is much better for all-round health and wel-being.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
I don't think that all sermons can be summed up as being "for" a specific purpose and, IMO, that is a good thing.
Sermons or homilies at a Parish Eucharist are likely to be short (maximum 10 minutes) and generally seek to highlight the kernel of the Gospel reading, perhaps giving a pointer to a lesson for everyday life.
Sermons at Matins or Evensong can be longer, though I'd suggest that 15 minutes is an absolute maximum; and since the readings at these services tend to be longer, and certainly to include something from the Old Testament (which often isn't read at any other time) it can go into greater detail.
By contrast sermons at occasional offices are more likely to focus on the actual event. I think it is a great pity that many clergy don't preach at funerals but instead give over the "slot" to tributes from relatives.
A good sermon should leave one (a) feeling that something new about a perhaps well-known passage has been shown to the listener; (b) not looking at their watch; and (c) be suitable for a wide range of ages from, the youngest chorister to people perhaps 80-90 years older.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
A sermon has never had any impact on my spirituality or my understanding of the faith. I've come to the conclusion that they're mainly there for the benefit of the person delivering them.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I think if a sermon helps one person love God or love their neighbour more, then that's a success. At times that one person can even be the preacher.
I'm sorry, but I think this is trite nonsense. I'm not saying it isn't a good thing if a sermon helps one person love God or their neighbor more... But in a sermon, you are addressing a specific gathering of the people of God, and your job is to say something that is relevant, inspiring, or challenging to that gathering...
The "if it helps one person" argument is brought out when we don't know that it helped anyone at all. "Maybe it helped one" is supported with "it's not about numbers" which is true but turning a gathering of many into a service for one hypothetical person is disrespectful of the value (and needs) of those gathered -- unless they are intentionally part of the team serving the needy one. "Let's all pray for Marcia" is a team act, "my sermon is/was for a hypothetical person who may not even be present" is not.
Anyone in the public spotlight is going to have an occasional bad day. We pew sitters shouldn't expect every sermon to be great. Mistakes happen, bad days happen, poor communication happens, attempts to explain something or to inspire that flop happen.
But there's a huge difference between an apologetic hope that someone got something out of it anyway vs and an arrogant assumption "God uses my words thoughts no matter how good or bad they are."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I'm sorry, but I think this is trite nonsense. I'm not saying it isn't a good thing if a sermon helps one person love God or their neighbor more. That's a very good thing, in fact. But in a sermon, you are addressing a specific gathering of the people of God, and your job is to say something that is relevant, inspiring, or challenging to that gathering. This is different from one-on-one pastoral care or private meditation. If the entire congregation is left wondering "what on earth was that about?" but you feel better at the end of the sermon, you missed the mark.
I would say that there are times when the preacher is the one who needs it most, and I would count it as a success in comparison with no-one benefitting from it. Of course it would be even better if it impacted more people in a positive way, and that will always be the goal, but I don't think it should be considered a complete failure if it brings the preacher to a place where they can better offer pastoral care, or better share the Gospel in the rest of the week.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
To me, a sermon in the context of the eucharist is a way of responding to the commandment to love God with our mind as well as other aspects of our personhood. Love is about more than sentiment, so I find a sermon with no intellectual content completely disappointing, indeed pointless. Likewise, however, if it just tells me about something without considering how that interacts with life and the daily process of living, that too seems to me to be an opportunity needlessly squandered. Sacraments are a means of embodying and living through things which are difficult to render physical otherwise, and the sermon has its place in that process.
It's also part of the gathering of the congregation in that place - this is where we are this week, what we are hearing this week (in the readings). How do we respond? How do we live it out? Before we carry on to be nourished in the eucharistic feast, our minds are nourished, and our needs considered. Clearly, this part can take a bit of a back seat if the preacher is not the pastoral head of the congregation, but I would think it would be there at least for the hearers in any case.
I also see them as being part of the preacher's generosity of self-giving - showing how they go through the process of thinking through the readings and applying them to their own understanding of God and life. This is a process that we all need to go through, so it is good for us to see it done and hear its proceeds week by week.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I would say that there are times when the preacher is the one who needs it most, and I would count it as a success in comparison with no-one benefitting from it. Of course it would be even better if it impacted more people in a positive way, and that will always be the goal, but I don't think it should be considered a complete failure if it brings the preacher to a place where they can better offer pastoral care, or better share the Gospel in the rest of the week.
I've heard it said that the preacher is almost always the one who benefits the most from a sermon. The thinking is that the preparation required means that the preacher is far more engaged with the topic than the listeners are.
IMO, the main problem with sermons is the passivity they engender in listeners. The so-called interactive sermon attempts to counter this, but in most cases I've seen, the interaction is fairly superficial.
Black preaching styles involving call and response, coupled with the Pentecostal custom of taking notes, and the old Anabaptist practice of inviting questions at the end of a sermon, would create more engagement and more alert listeners. But it would require meatier sermons, clergy who were willing to make themselves vulnerable to public disagreement, and churchgoers who were committed to putting in some work, not just sitting back and waiting to be 'fed'.
I know of a Baptist church which at certain times of the year organises worship to involve discussion groups after the sermon. Not everyone was keen initially, but I understand that the process has largely been accepted now. It was brought in as a way of making up for the lack of attendance at small group meetings, and as such I think it's a very good response to a common problem.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
In the roman Catholic Church the sermon, I understand, is supposed to be an expounding of the Gospel of the Mass. That's not a bad thing.
When the Orthodox Church in Russia operated under Soviet restrictions, pretty much all it could do was liturgy - all its schools were closed, it wasn't permitted catechism classes, etc. The sermon became very important, as it was the only way of teaching the faith. Maybe we should be glad that we can be so dismissive of sermons as many of us (well, me, actually) are.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Those who write and give the sermons are at a slight disadvantage nowadays, I imagine, since they can no longer thunder about the fires of hell and damnation for sinners, can they?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Those who write and give the sermons are at a slight disadvantage nowadays, I imagine, since they can no longer thunder about the fires of hell and damnation for sinners, can they?
I'm sure there are plenty of churches out there where they do thunder about hell and damnation on most Sundays.
And if hell and damnation isn't part of what you believe, explaining why it isn't part of what you believe can be an endless source of material.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Those who write and give the sermons are at a slight disadvantage nowadays, I imagine, since they can no longer thunder about the fires of hell and damnation for sinners, can they?
Lots of "conservative" non-denominational churches teach that most people are going to hell because they have not been born again (by that church's definition).
It's no longer the dominant official theology of mainline churches, that's all. And who knows what the dominant theology will be in the future.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Those who write and give the sermons are at a slight disadvantage nowadays, I imagine, since they can no longer thunder about the fires of hell and damnation for sinners, can they?
You're probably not completely wrong with that remark.
I do think it must be more challenging to be an inspiring preacher in a context of mainstream denominational doubt. Doctrinal certainty is harder to promote in a moderate church, except in the fields of social justice and struggles against poverty; and those topics, just like hell fire and damnation, can become clichés.
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
If hell and damnation isn't part of what you believe, explaining why it isn't part of what you believe can be an endless source of material.
Interestingly, I don't think moderate mainstream British clergy spend much time critiquing hell fire and damnation preaching from the pulpit. Not IME, anyway. I think this is because hell isn't a discourse that dominates the public face of Christianity here. Even evangelical clergy spend less time on it, so I understand.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Og and Belle Ringer
thank you for your replies
I have just googled 'Sermons hell damnation' and I see there are quite a few links! I'll have a look tomorrow.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I might suggest this is another time where taking a longer walk would be better for your well-being...
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
leo. Accepted! An inclusive, deconstructed, best case, postmodern presentation all-embracing of all tradition on anything that pops up in the calendar. Fair dos. Or best still, just Taizé it.
And Belle Ringer, yep. As Gamaliel would say, not either/or: and.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A few quick observations/responses:
@Baptist Trainfan - yes, I agree. The sermon does play a more 'sacramental' role within non-conformist churches ... although it does play that kind of role too in very low-church Anglican settings where one can get the impression that the communion is some kind of bolt-on extra ...
@Belle Ringer. I know you have a thing about creativity - but if I want to be creative I get involved in arty activities - that way I also meet non-churchy people. I may try to inject a bit of creativity into the things I do in church services from time to time - but that's a secondary aspect ... YMMV.
@SvitlanaV2 - I don't get around that much these days ... most of my observations are based on past experience where I got around a lot more than I do now.
On the Methodist thing ... I've heard some very good Methodist sermons. Intriguingly, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law are enjoying church life in a Methodist church in Yorkshire - after years out in fairly 'out-there' charismatic land. They particularly appreciate the sermons - and also the social-justice emphasis.
The other week my brother-in-law felt moved to join Amnesty International after one such sermon. He told me that it made a change from dipping into his pocket to found a health/wealth pastor's next 5-Series BMW ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
On a rough calculation, I must have heard tens of thousands of sermons during my lifetime, but I could count on one hand the ones I remember.
Whether all the others have penetrated and affected me to varying degrees by some process of spiritual osmosis, only God knows.
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
I would miss a sermon if I went to a service that didn't have one. I think that it gives my intellect something to exercise it, even if it then goes off on a tangent.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I would miss a sermon if I went to a service that didn't have one. I think that it gives my intellect something to exercise it, even if it then goes off on a tangent.
The specific purpose of a sermon, for you, is to give you something to think about - regardless of whether it relates to the gospel, the outside world, your own faith, etc?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder whether they have lost out to all the other means of obtaining advice, help and encouragement, etc. In earlier times - and that includes my early years - the church service was part of the week's entertainment! There must be fewer and fewer people who, needing some help and personal advice, would choose to go to the local priest, as there are other services available on the phone, on line, etc.
I think this touches on a very important point, which is the incalculable amount of information with which we are continuously saturated through print and electronic media, making the spoken, logocentric sermon a relatively tiny part of the input, and swamped by the rest.
Compare this with the place of the sermon in past centuries, particularly for poor, semi-literate congregations, for whom it had the potential to play a major weekly role, in terms of entertainment and emotional impact, as well as information and exhortation.
This ties in with your further comment on hellfire sermons, because a critical, information-sophisticated audience of today would be unlikely to react with the frenzy that Jonathan Edwards's hearers reportedly did when listening to his Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God.
And to return to electronic media, I am suspicious of those who whip out their smart phones at the beginning of sermons, allegedly to look up, and follow, the Bible reading.
I suspect that they use the opportunity to look up other things, and am jealous that I, with my ordinary phone, have to struggle to stay awake and concentrate on the sermon, while they are enjoying following the football scores.
[ 30. December 2015, 21:03: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Kaplan Corday
I've heard it said that sermons are like dinners - you don't remember every one, but they've nourished you all the same. I'm not sure if I like this analogy. But I'm sure that sermons do help to create the theological temperature of our churches, regardless of what we remember about them.
You sometimes get the impression that not all sermons are designed to be remembered, though. Several years ago I went through a phase of trying to take notes of the sermons I heard, and it was interesting how much padding there was that didn't seem worth writing down. What was left was sometimes quite basic.
[ 30. December 2015, 21:10: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I would miss a sermon if I went to a service that didn't have one. I think that it gives my intellect something to exercise it, even if it then goes off on a tangent.
The thing is, if this was the purpose, I would do a set of questions for the congregation, and explore some of them, not a sermon, which is supposed to have a structure and lead people in a direction.
The problems I have is what the usual sermon is for, and I am not sure there is any answer to this yet. Most of the reasons are better served in other ways.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I am suspicious of those who whip out their smart phones at the beginning of sermons, allegedly to look up, and follow, the Bible reading.
I suspect that they use the opportunity to look up other things, and am jealous that I, with my ordinary phone, have to struggle to stay awake and concentrate on the sermon, while they are enjoying following the football scores.
I've only become aware of this fairly recently, because the churches I usually go to are mostly attended by old people who don't have flashy phones, but do have a fairly high boredom threshold.
How, I wonder, do the rarer churches with middle aged and younger congregations deal with the ubiquitous smart phones? Is this something that church leaders are starting to get concerned about?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
(c) be suitable for a wide range of ages from, the youngest chorister to people perhaps 80-90 years older.
... which is something I have found missing in almost all the sermons I have listened to. Having been fortunate to have grown up in a parish where the preaching was superb (I still remember sermons I heard when I was under 10, over 40 years ago now) its all been downhill from there.
My most recent experience was of a minister who liked to show off her erudition. I have a wide vocabulary and a degree in theology. When I can't understand what's being said, then God help the rest of the congregation. I did an excellent course in public speaking about 20 years ago, and the advice I got then is what I've followed ever since - write and speak for an intelligent 12-year-old and your audience should be able to follow you.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's a Oldsmobile.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On a tangent for a moment -- whilst I agree with SvitlanaV2 that RC and Orthodox sermons seem to operate in a different kind of way to Protestant ones ...
I once read that there was a "sacramental" aspect to Protestant Nonconformist preaching which is quite different to what you'd expect in an Anglican or RC church. In other words, the "spiritual trajectory" of the service is different.
I come from a tradition where preaching and the sermon are taken Very Seriously. When I was a child, discussion of the sermon, including anything we may have disagreed with, was a standard topic of conversation at the family's Sunday dinner. When I recently served on the search committee for a new pastor and we did a survey (and further exploration) on what qualities the congregation was most looking for, strong preaching was easily the most frequent response, ahead of pastoral presence or leadership skills. Most people assumed it to be a given.
I think we do tend to view the sermon somewhat "sacramentally," even if we might not usually phrase it that way. I don't mean that in the sense of it being where the service leads, though. For us, the sermon comes in the same spot that it would in an RC Mass or Anglican Eucharist. (Though historically we have certainly been guilty of making the sermon "the event.")
I mean it in the sense of an encounter with Christ. I like and tend to agree with the way the Directory for Worship of the PC(USA) puts it:
quote:
The preached Word or sermon is to be based upon the written Word. It is a proclamation of Scripture in the conviction that through the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ is present to the gathered people, offering grace and calling for obedience.
No, I don't specifically remember every good sermon I've heard, just as I don't specifically every good conversation I've had with my wife. But I believe I can say that I have regularly encountered Christ through the Word proclaimed. Sometimes, it had been a comfort, sometime a challenge, sometimes a new insight, etc. Sometimes, I have experienced one of these while those around me have heard something different. But my experience is that if I do my part listening, there will be something I can take as what God wanted me to hear that day, and something that we can take as what God wanted us as a community of faith to hear. (And sometimes, neither are what the preacher would have predicted.)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
I preach in my church about 6 or 7 times a year. When I give it the time, energy and enthusiasm that it deserves, a good sermon aims to be many things. Primarily I hope it connects with people on a spiritual and emotional level, that people feel the content relates to their personal circumstances and helps them to find space to think about their lives and how it connects with the bigger picture. I hope it also has some theological content for them to take away, so that over the months and years of hearing sermons they will gradually build up more knowledge about theology, the Bible, Christian history, etc. I also hope that the sermon will help some people to lift their eyes towards heaven. Most people have heard the sort of things I am going to be saying, but they also need to be reminded, and often we need to preach to the soul, not the intellect. A sermon should sometimes seek to challenge people, sometimes offer comfort, sometimes just be a pleasant part of the overall service that makes a person feel glad that they came to church that day.
Occasionally a sermon will respond to something that has happened in the news (e.g. 9/11, the Asian tsunami, the Paris attacks - all of which I was on for the following Sunday). For the Paris attacks I had prepared a sermon during the week, and on the Sunday morning 2 hours before the service decided I had to tear it up and just speak about Paris from a few bullet points on the back of an envelope. While it wasn't at all polished, the raw and honest response to the situation was very much appreciated by people who were themselves asking the sort of questions I was deliberating from the front of church.
To try and be memorable I will try and craft the sermon to be a manageable length (about 15 minutes), with a novel opening that makes people sit up and listen, a good finish that will hopefully stay with them, and occasional signposting in between so it doesn't just seem like a long screed of words. I will work hard on making sure the language is natural and flows, sometimes working hard on the specific phrasing of a particular idea so that it is more likely to stand out and be remembered at a later date. I try and vary my delivery - some times I will use pictures with a Powerpoint, sometimes I will create imagery just with words, sometimes I will act out a narrative, sometimes I offer deliberately practical, down to earth advice. I might involve the congregation, or I might just stand and talk. Whatever happens, I hope I am never predictable and that helps people to pay attention. My congregation are good at giving positive feedback, and I get different people responding well to different approaches. I have found the most important thing is that I am honest and try to connect with what really matters to me about faith - if I'm just engaging intellectually it isn't doing the whole job. And it is always satisfying when someone tells you of something you said several years ago which meant something to them and they carried with them and made their own.
As I am fortunate in only preaching about once every 6 weeks, I am able to put a lot into preparation. By the time I stand up to preach I have usually put in several hours reading, praying and thinking, several more hours structuring, writing, editing and then preached through the sermon at least 6 or 7 times so that it feels natural and comes over as if I am having a conversation. Even though I have notes with every word written down, I often have people asking how I preach without notes, so the work put into getting the delivery right must be paying off.
One final thought - I recognise when I preach that many people won't listen to every word. Trying to give a consistent chain of reasoning, where missing one link makes the rest unintelligible, wouldn't work for me. I prefer to see my sermons as a buffet, I lay out ideas, images, stories, whatever content I have and the congregation are welcome to take as much or as little from it as they wish, and make of it what they wish. I try and think of three or four people in the church when I am composing the words (e.g. an elderly lady who has been coming for 60 years, a teenager asking hard questions, a new parent trying to re-connect with faith, a person recently bereaved) and see if there can be something in the layers of the talk that will be of value to each of them. It's not easy, but if you manage it it's very satisfying.
And if someone just needs to sit quietly for 15 minutes, ignore me droning on and just have some space, then I am happy for that as well.
As I said, that's the ideal, and my busy working life doesn't always afford me the time to build in innovation, theology, emotional content, relevance, layers of meaning, variation in delivery, etc. etc. But when it all comes together, people do respond. If someone says "nice talk today" I know I have fallen short. When they say "what you said today, that was for me", or they come to you with a tear in their eye and just say "thank you", or when they track you down a few weeks later and say "what you said the other week, I've been thinking about it and..." then you feel you've served them well.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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