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Source: (consider it) Thread: Poppies - Time to Forget?
Humble Servant
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Leader of the opposition bullied into not wearing a white poppy.
WWII veteran banned from remembrance day celebrations over his peace campaigning.
Irish footballer has to account for his decision not to wear a poppy.
TV presenter abused for not wearing a poppy on screen.

All of these are recurring themes. Every year the same old stories. Peace campaigners want remembrance to be about peace. War campaigners want remembrance to be about "heroes". Those who use it to make a statement are bullied by those who what it to make a different statement.

Is this the way we should remember those who died in war? Can I wear a poppy (of any colour) and not associate myself with a "faction"? Has remembrance outlived its original purpose, and should we forget the whole thing now?

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Schroedinger's cat

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I think it does raise passions, and becomes highly political.

I refuse to wear a poppy. If I did, it would be a white poppy, because the point is to reject war, remember how appalling it is and remember not to do it again. Like we have learnt that lesson.

I also don't wear one because it has become too demanding, to much a statement of conformity. I don't really do conformity.

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Jengie jon

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We are still asking often deprived youngsters to kill and risk being killed on our behalf. As long as we as a nation do that it is not time to forget.

It is time for contrition and remorse.

Jengie

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Martin60
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I wish we had like buttons. Including for the Irish lad and the old boy. In a house with two women this morning, it was impossible to get to the bathroom and get to the service, I put me black jacket and red and white poppies on just now but the wreath had been laid and the crowd had broken up. I watched the old boys with their medals walk away. One of these years the red AND the white will get an outing.

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The Scrumpmeister
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I don't feel strongly enough about wearing a red poppy to consider it a great hardship so I get one every year and pin it to my lapel. However, I do feel a little resentment at being made to feel that to do otherwise would be an act of treason.

In the part of Greater Manchester where I now live there is a large Asian Muslim community. There's also a large white population whose families have lived and worked in these former mill towns for years, and it isn't rare to hear expressions on the tram, on the bus, and in the supermarket of the sort of xenophobic rhetoric of certain well known groups. I've made local friends and acquaintances, and I see how often they "like" and reshare Britain First's Facebook posts.

I would prefer to donate to the Royal British Legion because of their good work while choosing instead to wear a white poppy because of what it stands for but I'm scared to do that.

I'm ethnically a mix of white Franco-Irish and black Caribbean, which apparently makes me look Asian to many people. Essentially I'm brown-skinned young male with facial hair.

So I wear a red poppy.

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Felafool
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This saddens me so much each year, and raises a number of issues. Who or what are we remembering, what is the British Legion funding for and should veterans have to rely on charity rather than government support, freedom of choice, white, red or none...the list goes on.

see for example Symon Hill's recent blogs on Ecclesia here

The mantra of wearing your poppy 'with pride' potentially fuels a nationalistic jingoism.

The problem is that in all of this we lose sight of the fact that war sucks. We need to find other ways to resolve differences and conflict.

My father was an RAF pilot in WW2, my Grandfather was wounded in the Battle of the Somme in WW1. But I want to remember more than just the British military (who are represented by the British Legion red poppy). I want to remember all who have been affected by the idiocy of war...serving men and women on all sides, civilians, children, conscientious objectors (see e.g. Britain’s most decorated enlisted soldier in WW1 was a conscientious objector who never fired a shot

I tried wearing a white poppy, but it seemed to upset too many people. So now I don't wear any poppy, but I will never forget.

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Boogie

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I wear one red, one white.

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Pigwidgeon

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This is beginning to sound like the War of the Roses, only now it's the War of the Red or White Poppies.

In the U.S. Wednesday will be Veterans' Day, hardly any poppies will be worn, but it's a big day for sales, beating the Christmas rush!

Memorial Day, the end of May, is much more about remembering those who have died in wars.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:

I tried wearing a white poppy, but it seemed to upset too many people. So now I don't wear any poppy, but I will never forget.

I have yet to receive any pushback at all for it: it does not seem to be as much of a lightning-rod here, and I wonder if that's because it's less well-known (I have to get them through my confessor, who orders them from England to distribute at her parish).

I tend to avoid Remembrance Sunday services and quietly sneak off to somewhere it isn't kept (when I lived in Toronto the patronal festival at St Martin-in-the-Fields was the perfect escape hatch). I would prefer the modern English custom, followed in some of the more anglophilic east-coast Anglo-Catholic parishes of the Episcopal Church, of a Requiem at the parish mass. (Come to think of it, did I read somewhere the first poppies were black? That would settle my scruples altogether).

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wear one red, one white.

That's my intention, since the donations for the red support veterans' services, which I am certainly all for. I haven't managed to get a red one yet this year just because I haven't yet managed to catch the old gent who has them at the corner supermarket on a day he's been there.
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quetzalcoatl
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I don't mind people wearing poppies, although the conformist element is rather ironic, since presumably the 'war for freedom' in WWII included the freedom to dissent.

I was struck by the Irish guy mentioning Bloody Sunday, and there is also stuff like Iraq.

I haven't worn a poppy for 50 years.

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Raptor Eye
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I do wear a red poppy now, out of free will choice, because I have come to recognise it as a symbol of sacrifice and not a symbol of war. The red represents the blood shed by those who have died or been wounded, the black centre those who have been bereaved, the green leaf the new life of peace and freedom enabled by the sacrifice.

Nobody should wear a poppy of any colour if they don't want to. Those who do want to wear one should not be condemned as warmongers or praised as patriots; those who don't should not be condemned as unpatriotic or praised as pacifists.

We should continue to remember imv. We will never have peace unless we recognise the realities of war.

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Arethosemyfeet
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The white poppy is closest to my sentiments, and I've worn it in the past. This year I wore a red for the first time in many years, as I'd been asked to take part in the local act of remembrance. I recognise that the RBL do important work, but I don't consider former service personnel to be any more (or less) deserving of help than someone traumatised by childhood abuse or who lost a limb in a deep sea fishing accident so they are not a major recipient of my charitable donations. I was also tasked this year with leading the Remembrance Sunday service, and spoke about the ethical dilemma we are faced with as Christians regarding war and the use of violence.

I do think, though, that the time has come, as the generations of mass mobilisation and conscription pass away, to shift the emphasis from being primarily about (our own) service personnel to focussing on the total human cost of war. For people of my generation, we're more likely to have lost someone in a car accident than we are to war, and the act of remembrance is never going to carry the same meaning as for those who lost friends or relatives, or for children who grew up never knowing their father or uncle. We shouldn't try to pretend a remembrance that is not our own, and I think there is a certain amount of that with the current practice.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Never ever heard of a white poppy. The poppy is always red here, sold by the Royal Canadian Legion and is clearly a symbol of sorrow and sadness. If your poppies have become symbols of "support the troops" and militarism, the Remembrance Day has been co-opted.

"In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses, row on row....

We are the dead
short days ago, we lived..."
(pretty near every Canadian can recite John McCrae's poem. The day is about sorrow.

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Baptist Trainfan
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They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.
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Nicolemr
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In the US poppies are rather going out of style. They are for Memorial Day, in May, rather than Veterans Day, in November, but I find it harder and harder to find one each year.

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Humble Servant
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Oh and here we go again this year:
Remembrance is an opportunity to take a pop at Jeremy Corbyn.
Remembrance is an opportunity to feign offence at a supermarket's remembrance offering - and then feign offence when they change it.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Has remembrance outlived its original purpose, and should we forget the whole thing now?

Depends what you're remembering, doesn't it? It isn't all about the world wars. Widows who lost their men in the Falklands, or Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, will likely have strong views on this, and probably want to preserve the tradition. Commemoration of war dead isn't just historical: it's contemporary.

I never wear a poppy. I always found them too upsetting. I never buy one, either, but if I find one that someone has dropped I'll pick it up and put it on my desk for the season. It'll usually be a bit crumpled and dusty, but it's more evocative of the fallen that way, and I take time to honour their memories, and keep the silence. Nobody has ever challenged me for not wearing a poppy.

In answer to your question: no, it isn't time to forget. You may not be directly affected in your own family, but others will be in theirs.

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Bishops Finger
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I wear a red poppy every year - ISTM to emphasise the sheer bloody awfulness of the wars the fucktards in our Government want us to fight for them.....

OTOH, I don't think they're at all appropriate on ecclesiastical vestments, so Father and I left them off our chasuble and dalmatic this morning....but, given that it's Kingdom Season in yer good ol' C of E, we were in red anyway.

This morning's entirely appropriate homily (IMNSHO) dealt with Remembrance, Repentance, and Resolve (i.e. to follow all paths leading away from war and conflict, contrasting the Kingdom of God, referred to by Jesus in today's Gospel, with the shoddy, flawed, sinful etc. values of 'the world'.

I.

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Schroedinger's cat

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It does all relate to the wider issue of the near beatification of the forces. Which is a way of diverting attention from the governments who send them into action.

ISTM that trying to force the focus onto the soldiers, sailors and airmen who died in the wars, and the "sacrifice they made for us" distracts from the important questions about why the politicians decided to fight that war.

I think it is far more hypocritical for Tony Blair to wear a poppy, remembering those whom he sent to an illegal war to die for his political ambitions. Of course, mentioning this is "politicising" the sacrifice. Like it is not already political. And always has been.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... "In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses, row on row....

We are the dead
short days ago, we lived..."
(pretty near every Canadian can recite John McCrae's poem. The day is about sorrow.

Do they think about what they're reciting?
quote:
... Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

The Canadian Legion has enabled thousands of Canadian veterans to drink themselves to death, which is just one of the reasons I longer buy or wear a poppy. There are better ways to care for and support the victims and survivors of war than running a bar with a weekly meat draw.

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agingjb
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I usually remember to buy a (red) poppy. But, never having been a member of the armed forces, do I have the right to wear one?

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.

They are so marginal as to be invisible. Nothing like the UK.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It does all relate to the wider issue of the near beatification of the forces. Which is a way of diverting attention from the governments who send them into action.

ISTM that trying to force the focus onto the soldiers, sailors and airmen who died in the wars, and the "sacrifice they made for us" distracts from the important questions about why the politicians decided to fight that war.

I think it is far more hypocritical for Tony Blair to wear a poppy, remembering those whom he sent to an illegal war to die for his political ambitions. Of course, mentioning this is "politicising" the sacrifice. Like it is not already political. And always has been.

Yes, I was struck by the Irish footballer, who said, am I supposed to remember Bloody Sunday in a positive way? It's a strange conflation between people who have died, and the wars they died in. For example, do we include the fight against the Mau Mau in Kenya, which included possible war crimes and other abuses? Or do we glide over such things as unfortunate by-products of war?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Has remembrance outlived its original purpose, and should we forget the whole thing now?

Depends what you're remembering, doesn't it? It isn't all about the world wars. Widows who lost their men in the Falklands, or Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, will likely have strong views on this, and probably want to preserve the tradition. Commemoration of war dead isn't just historical: it's contemporary.
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.

I wear a while poppy.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.

War widows aren't qualified to wear one?
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Jengie jon

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I would feel less badly about the beatification of the armed forces if that actually meant that we looked after those who served properly once they were discharged and they did not need to rely on charity!

Jengie

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.

They are so marginal as to be invisible. Nothing like the UK.
In the years since I have heard of the white poppy, I have yet to see one. Perhaps those who share the sentiments simply avoid poppies??

Last year, on account of the death of Nathan Cirillo at the War Monument in Ottawa and W/o Vincent in Saint-Jean-de-Richelie, Ottawa was chock-full of poppies and I saw more than ever before in Montreal. This year, there is a fair sprinkling among south Asian teenagers, perhaps more than among their old stock™ schoolfriends-- there are fewer among East Asian or Black & African teenagers.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.

War widows aren't qualified to wear one?
I think the point being made is that anyone can wear one, but the intent is to remember fallen British and (possibly) allied service personnel, not all those who die in war.
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Jack o' the Green
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

To some extent that might be true, but the British Legion does fund Admiral Nurses who are specialist nurses, employed to support carers who look after those who did serve and now have dementia.
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M.
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I have never seen a white poppy either (living in UK and working in London).

I wore my poppy with pride for - oh, 50 years? - but stopped a few years ago as it seems to have become so over the top, almost compulsory, and I find that unpleasant.


M.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
To some extent that might be true, but the British Legion does fund Admiral Nurses who are specialist nurses, employed to support carers who look after those who did serve and now have dementia.

Slight rephrasing necessary.

"Admiral Nurses are specialist nurses, employed to support carers who look after those who now have dementia." The dementia sufferer doesn't have to have been in the forces, though if they have, and need residential care, the Legion does fund four care homes.

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rolyn
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I have been to Church a few times on Rememberance Day. Something about it never feels quite right.
War is grotesque, much of it's dark appeal lies there. We dress it into something better with parades, plaques and ceremonies.
I observed the silence at the cenotaph with the TV on. It all looked a bit political somehow, but then who's to say politics isn't the way to prevent war.

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Martin60
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It's establishment. Which incorporates the political and the religious. Emasculates Christ.

That's why it feels wrong. That's why it IS wrong.

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Love wins

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I would feel less badly about the beatification of the armed forces if that actually meant that we looked after those who served properly once they were discharged and they did not need to rely on charity!

Jengie

As with other saints, it is only in concept that they are so wonderful, or once they are dead. Their actual, physical presence and demands on us are just uncomfortable and unpleasant.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.

War widows aren't qualified to wear one?
I think the point being made is that anyone can wear one, but the intent is to remember fallen British and (possibly) allied service personnel, not all those who die in war.
And yet today's London cenotaph service involved men and women from numerous nations wearing poppies and laying poppy (and other kinds of) wreathes, and walking in the official national processions, as living reminders of the extent of 'British' war involvement. An important reminder that the UK's unusual level of multiculturalism - whether one likes it or not - is historically embedded in its national life, not least through the sacrifice and service of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of non-British combatants. What was it the commentator said, over 2,000,000 Indians fought in the second world war - just to give a wee example?

The issue being, not so much how coerced, potentially, they were to fight on the side of the alllies against the Germans. But that a sacrifice was made and please can it be acknowledged as something worth acknowledging and not brushed under the carpet as never having happened, just because it makes for uncomfortable recollection in our more 'enlightened' times?

So for me the poppy is about 'Lest we forget'.

I wear it, not because I want to see wars being fought but because they are brutal realities of our pathetic consistent failure as a species to apply logic, compassion and other positive human qualities to situations involving principle, territorial conflicts, greed etc.

And we should be reminded as strongly as possible, for as long as possible, and as uncompromisingly as possible about the true cost of war, until we eventually grow up and find a way of resolving our dick-waving contests without murdering each other.

And, imo, the poppy is a direct reminder that human beings spilt blood in an attempt, however flawed, to make a better world. And that this should be so, isn't good enough, so let's continue to be appalled by loss of life and work to do something about it.

So is it time to forget how bloody and crappy the world gets when our politicians and others in authority eff things up? Or when people who make themselves powerful with hate-infested ideologies and bigger weapons than their weaker neighbours decide the world is their personal plaything? No. It's not.

Not until we've got a viable alternative.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's establishment. Which incorporates the political and the religious. Emasculates Christ.

That's why it feels wrong. That's why it IS wrong.

Bang on target there Martin.
Many of the poem writers from WW1 questioned the whereabouts of God in what they saw in front of them. One was Ivor Gurney in his poem called "The Target" strangely enough.

And yes SC, service personnel are often held in that same regard -- Highest of esteem when they leave/veiled disdain when they return.
The emotions thrown up by war repeat themselves over and over. It could be that having Remembrance Day year on year is, if nothing else, a reminder of that sickly and intoxicating blend of tragedy mixed with euphoria only war can produce.
How could it not make Jesus weep.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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L'organist
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Excuse me, but the selling of poppies is not political.

In the UK poppies are still made by disabled ex-servicemen and women who are employed to do so by the Earl Haig Fund, which has been doing this since 1921. The EHF is a charity that gives assistance to ex-service people, particularly those who have lost limbs or their sight; the Fund has always taken the view that it is better for the whole man to have employment rather than just exist on a handout - a view that today we would describe as applying a holistic approach to the welfare or maimed ex-service personnel.

The red poppy became associated with remembrance first in the USA and spread to the UK later: of course, it is because of the famous poem In Flanders fields (written by a Canadian) that we also associate the poppy with remembrance of war dead.

As for whether or not it is time to forget: just ask the veterans of VietNam how corrosive it has been for them to have been the unacknowledged casualties of a war and you might change your mind.

Like it or not, wars keep being fought: all war is bad but not all war is either evil or avoidable. Those of us unable, or unwilling, to fight in such conflicts nevertheless owe those who do respect for their service and respect for the sacrifice of those who don't return.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.

They are so marginal as to be invisible. Nothing like the UK.
In the years since I have heard of the white poppy, I have yet to see one.
As I say, I have quite a to-do every couple of years getting a hold of one (I try to make them last more than a year because of the scarcity). I don't think I have ever seen anyone wearing one with whom I was not glancingly acquainted or indeed who did not get them from the same church I do. (This year, I had my father pick up two and post them to me in Montréal, and I haven't seen any others at all here).

There were several people, though still a minority, wearing red poppies at Mass today (we're being quite correct and transferring Remembrance Sunday forward rather than anticipating today) and no one remarked on mine at all.

[ 09. November 2015, 00:00: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

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bib
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I have never seen white poppies worn in Australia, but the wearing of red poppies is common. I can't see any problem in wearing something in memory of loved ones lost in war. I certainly wear one in memory of a great uncle who died in the trenches in France. This has nothing to do with glorifying war, but for me is wearing a poppy in honour of a relation whose life was cut short doing what he believed he had to do for his country and who therefore never got the chance grow old. I never had the chance to meet him, but he was my grandmother's much loved youngest brother. I wear a poppy to also honour all the other young men and women who fell as he did.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And, imo, the poppy is a direct reminder that human beings spilt blood in an attempt, however flawed, to make a better world.

Although we then teach our children modern history including the events leading up to conflict in 1914 ... and, there is nothing there about attempting to make a better world. It was a war between European colonial powers, neither side was fighting for better conditions in the colonies of the other side. Neither side was fighting because the other side, if they had won, was going to suppress the freedoms and liberties of the losers. There was no fundamental differences between French and German, British and Austrian. We all had practically the same Royal Families (except for the French). For generations, European powers had been involved in a Cold War fought in proxy conflicts in Africa and Asia. A Cold War for economic supremacy, with all sides maintaining massive armies and navies which no one actually intended to use against the other European powers - they knew that war in Europe was going to destroy too many lives on each side - they existed as a deterent against such a war. It was an early 20th Century version of Mutually Assured Destruction, and deterrence failed. The tragedy of the 1914-18 war was that there was no "good guy", it wasn't a war to defend our way of life from dictatorship. It was a war where the only enemy to a better world was the war itself. It was a charnal house for no benefit to anyone.

We can honour the sacrifice of that war. We can respect their patriotism, their heroism, we can mourn their loss and remember the tragedy. We can, as the first Remembrances always did, look back and declare "never again". But, we can't look back on the war as a fight for freedom and liberty, as a struggle against oppression and dictatorship, as a defence of "our way of life" and all that cobblers.

Later wars, well they were different. The Nazi regime in 1939 was an evil cancer in the heart of Europe that needed to be cut out. The Soviet Union was a repressive regime that, at least under Stalin, sought to expand it's influence.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Later wars, well they were different. The Nazi regime in 1939 was an evil cancer in the heart of Europe that needed to be cut out. The Soviet Union was a repressive regime that, at least under Stalin, sought to expand it's influence.

As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Alan Cresswell

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I would say that an act of Remembrance, to be meaningful, has to include an element of remembering the parts our own nations played in creating the situations that lead to war. When we remember those who died, and those who came home but were never the same people, we must remember that they fought for their country, and that same country through short-sightedness, stupidity, ignorance or deliberate actions created the situations that lead to war.

And, Remembering to declare "never again". Which must, IMO, include campaigning against the actions of our own government and commercial interests that are going to act to increase rather than decrease global tensions and inequalities. We cannot, IMO, truly Remember war without being active peacemakers.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Alan - I couldn't agree more. Just thinking of dead soldiers, sailors and airmen - however moving - is inadequate.

[ 09. November 2015, 06:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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M.
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Perhaps I should have been clearer. I have no problem with remembrance, with poppies themselves, with the service and march past at the Cenotaph or most of the other trappings (couldn't be doing with the Festival of Remembrance on Saturday evening, though).

I have a problem with what seems like an increasingly imposed uniformity - if you don't wear a poppy, you are not patriotic, you do not honour 'our boys' etc. -the increasing vilification of those that choose not to wear a poppy.

M.

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Gee D
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I'm not sure about northern Tasmania, where Bib lives, but in Sydney poppies only arrive on Remembrance Day itself, being sold as a charitable fundraiser. I'll put on a sprig of rosemary before I leave home, then buy a poppy in the city. None of this carrying-on about wearing them a fortnight beforehand, nor the none-too-subtle enforcement that appears to happen in the UK. I'll bet it does not go on in the rest of Europe.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Doublethink.
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I am not convinced that the use of the poppy is all about remembrance of sacrifice - http://www.poppyshop.org.uk/all-products.html?limit=all . Because I can't envisage a situation where a poppy themed beanie, shopping bag or cascade ear rings are really reflecting that emotional/reflective state.

It looks much more like a pro-military trope when used in that way.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Galloping Granny
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I must give some thought to wearing white and red.

Meanwhile, I'm not always where the poppies are being sold, but I was concerned when a few years ago the RSA stopped having the poppies made in a sheltered workshop, as they had been for some years, and ordered cheaper ones from China. No doubt there were attractive savings to be made, but it seemed a mean thing to do.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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mr cheesy
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My daughter packed off to school this morning wearing a white poppy an expecting to get into trouble for it - according to her, she'll be the only person wearing one and one of few to not wear the red poppy.

But then she does tend to exaggerate things somewhat - according to her, the priest last night who was rambling something about the Holy Spirit being present when people stand together in shared liturgy at "Remembrancetide" kept on staring at her white poppy and the worshipper on her other side took a visible step sideways when he noticed it. Trying to avoid the shrapnel when she gets hit by the divine lightening, I suppose.

I think many have made some great points above. I especially agree that my grandfather and his generation did not fight for the kind of freedom that pressurises everyone to conform to a cultural emblem or thinks it acceptable for a military leader to envisage ignoring the will of the people. In fact, my grandfather fought against the rigid militarisation of society, against forced "correct" official doctrines and against military rule.

In terms of the act of remembrance, I think we have to increasingly ask who or what we are remembering when all those involved in the traumatic conflicts are no longer alive. Yes, it is true that the whole country was involved in WW2 in a way that never happened before in a form of shared experience and fight for survival.

But the legacy of that trauma has extended to hero-worship and military pride - so that now we seem to be slipping back into "my country right or wrong" flag-waving.

One thing to stand and recall those people you actually knew who had their lives cut short, another to be forced to be part of a cultural conversation of which you have no personal experience nor relationship.

The language is singularly unhelpful: what actually are we supposed to be remembering? The needless, pointless waste of life at the Somme?

If I recall the facts that this happened without knowing personally anyone involved, how is this different to remembering Trafalgar, Waterloo? Why is the serviceman who died in Iraq more worthy of the annual title of hero than the civilian lifeboatmen (and others) who risk (and sometimes pay with) their lives to save others?

Is this just a sign that the whole narrative of our country is based on the Myth of Redemptive Violence?

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Baptist Trainfan
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Excellent post. Hope things go well for your daughter.
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fletcher christian

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The Irish footballer who won't wear a poppy because of Bloody Sunday is a good example of just how politicised the whole thing has become. I don't wear a poppy, but I don't wear the emblem of any charity unless I'm actually working for them. Perhaps I would if I were a direct beneficiary. I don't like Remembrance Sunday services generally speaking, but that is more specifically to do with what I think of as a modern heresy of equating sacrifice in war with the sacrifice of Christ; something I am deeply uncomfortable with, but perhaps the subject of another thread. But what I will say is that facts should never get in the way of a good political point scoring exercise, should they?

The vast majority of those who went off to World War 1 from Ireland were Roman Catholic, politically nationalist (or at least leaning that direction) and unemployed. For many it was an opportunity of employment and little else. The country was at a seriously low ebb and appeared economically and culturally to be grinding to a slow halt. It had become the playground of the rich and landed. The generations before them had lived through a terrible famine that few people seemed too concerned about, but they were too poor to leave the country like so many others did and so they stayed to watch one third of the population die. Here they were with no rights, no land, no money and culturally suppressed. They went off to war with the British Army to enable them to have enough money to feed their families. Of course this created a vacuum that was to be exploited by those who would attempt to strike out for something they thought might be better which was to arrive in another bloody, tangled mess in 1916. When the Roman Catholic nationalists returned to this new Ireland they found it had moved on without them. They were shunned, forgotten, ignored.

They could have been remembered, but I guess bitterness and a hardening of attitudes kept this from being a reality. My own experience of the British Legion here in Ireland in the past has been of people who have been rabidly unionist, who seemed incapable of accepting that Ireland had independence and who wanted to maintain remembrance observance as a political tool akin to a dog pissing on a lamppost with Unionist scented urine. To me it was neither appropriate nor respectful and certainly not respectful to those who actually served and died from Ireland, yet there is a peculiar irony to their stance. That, thankfully, has changed considerably as new blood has arrived into the RBL offices here in Ireland and Ireland is at a point where it can actually remember the war dead of World War 1, but the political shenanigans of 'support our troops', 'let's hate on Corbyn' and 'it's a Protestant only thing' all help to destabilise it. Those who would politicise it in whatever way are also helping to destroy it.

That is not to say that a footballer should be forced to wear a poppy (or anyone for that matter), nor should there be any reason to ask why he isn't wearing one. I presume he doesn't wear a breast cancer awareness ribbon or an AID's day ribbon. I'm not about to ask him why not.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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