Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Xenophobic racist bigots
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
… are taking over the world.
Down our way in foie gras land, the Racist Demagogue Party aka the FN got bloody 40% of the vote. When I go down there next, I’m going to be looking at all the neighbours and the people in the shops and all the rest and thinking, “are you a Nazi sympathiser? Was it you?” This was on a turnout of about 50% I believe so I suppose the one respect in which I can thank Marine the Xenophobic Racist Witch Lepen for doing her civic duty is that all the people who stayed at home in the first round might bother to go and vote in the second to prove that the French are not quite so xenophobic as they look at the minute. I think the FN are generally quite good for democratic participation that way. Still, I hear a result like that and I think, “who are these people?” I don’t personally know anyone who doesn’t view Marine Lepen as basically the most terrifying woman in France, but clearly someone’s voting for her tribe of vicious racists. A lot of someones.
I opened my shutters this morning and saw the tricolor in the neighbour’s window and suddenly I felt a bit bothered about it. We are under attack! Let’s all unite behind the Republic by voting for the most anti-democratic, anti-republican load of demagogues on the ballot! Or something.
Meanwhile the Donald is saying that the US should close its borders to every single Muslim person in the world without exception. And there are people who actually take him seriously.
I am pessimistic about the future of the developed world. Clearly this was exactly the way to stop Daesh destroying our democratic freedoms .
What the hell is wrong with people?
-------------------- Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Fear.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Which is precisely the reaction that ISIS want to achieve. Well done Marine and well done Donald for helping them with that ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
And there's that bloke starting up Pegida in Birmingham.
I think we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing, unfortunately. Donald Trump is seriously worrying, though. Can you imagine, if he ever got in!
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
My Doomsday scenario is Trump as PotUS and Boris as PM...
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: Fear.
is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: Fear.
is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
It certainly increased the popularity of the KKK and various right-wing regimes in the 1920's and 1930's (some of which staggered on until the 1980's).
To say that it doesn't matter because those who vote for racists are stupid misses the point. There are many stupid people. They have not all historically voted for racist parties and like more intelligent and better educated people they deserve representation.
Most of all, many racist parties are led by people who have tremendous people skills even if they are not remotely intellectual.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: My Doomsday scenario is Trump as PotUS and Boris as PM...
Mine is Trump as POTUS and Corbyn as PM with Marine Le Pen running France and Pegida having a good crack at running Germany.
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: My Doomsday scenario is Trump as PotUS and Boris as PM...
Mine is Trump as POTUS and Corbyn as PM with Marine Le Pen running France and Pegida having a good crack at running Germany.
There're two i's in ruining.... [ 08. December 2015, 12:37: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
-------------------- And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
My dream is an impermeable wall between Canada and the US to keep all those nutjobs out. With a small one-way door to export all our home-grown nutjobs so they can be with like people. And mostly to keep my newly minted American citizen brother who agrees with those idiots away from me.
-------------------- Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: Fear.
is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Yoda?! Well, it would explain alot, but you know how to string a sentence together
Tubbs
-------------------- "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
One of the more perceptive comments I saw following Trump's delusional train of semi-consciousness was that his extremism risks making some highly xenophobic and racist positions seem more reasonable.
When the nut jobs and fruitcakes of UKIP allow Cameron & Osborne to claim to be 'centrist', then the sheer fuckwittery of Trump could even make Sarah Palin seem like a sage voice.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I don’t think Marine Lepen is stupid. I think she is very, very intelligent. That’s what worries me.
I don’t think the time has come for a Lepen presidency. My prediction for the 2017 presidential election is this: she will make it into the second round in first place ahead of someone from the (non-extreme) right, possibly Nicolas Sarkozy. At this point people will dig out their old “I am ashamed to be French” placards from the last time this happened and take to the streets beating their breasts. The second round will have a turn-out of 90%, large numbers of people will vote “anyone but Lepen” with a clothes peg on their nose and the other candidate will win, whoever they are. You heard it here first.
OTOH, while Lepen may be incapable of getting elected President, I think there is a very real possibility of the FN taking a couple of regions, especially the ones like foie gras land where the other candidates are stubbornly refusing to do any kind of deal with each other to keep them out. That alone is reason enough to be very afraid AFAIC.
-------------------- Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by la vie en rouge: I don’t personally know anyone who doesn’t view Marine Lepen as basically the most terrifying woman in France
Then perhaps you need to get out of your cosy little left-wing echo chamber a little more often.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
No one could make Sarah Palin sound like a sane voice. At least we have that. I have hopes that the cowardly GOP candidates will speak up against Trump -- they have every incentive to do so, and may well develop some spine. And all Hillary Clinton has to do is keep her nose clean and her head down, and let Trump cut his party's throat. He pretty well guarantees that the next president will be a Democrat.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by la vie en rouge: I don’t personally know anyone who doesn’t view Marine Lepen as basically the most terrifying woman in France
Then perhaps you need to get out of your cosy little left-wing echo chamber a little more often.
Ha! This is France, remember, where proper Socialism is alive and well. We even have a bona fide Communist party you can vote for if you want.
Nonetheless, as it happens, most of my acquaintance vote for the moderate right. Guess what? They are very alarmed by Lepen. She is an extremely nasty piece of work who has done a great job of repackaging the extreme right to make it look like the common-sense voice of the people. It is racist demagoguery at its worst and very, very dangerous.
ETA on the Côte d'Azur the moderate right candidate has dropped out and told all his supporters to vote for the Socialists to keep the FN out. It's not just the left who are calling them dangerous. [ 08. December 2015, 14:08: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
-------------------- Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Dangerous in what way? What do you think they would do were they to gain power? What have they done in any local authorities where they already have power (if any)?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And the Donald Trump fictions extend to London and Paris, where apparently police are in fear for their lives because entire sections of the city have been so radicalised. BBC News.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Yeah, Donald Trump, the police in London are so scared that they walk about without guns and arrest a suspect in a terrorist attack with a non-lethal taser - without firing a single shot.
You are clearly out of your tiny mind.
-------------------- arse
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Dangerous in what way? What do you think they would do were they to gain power? What have they done in any local authorities where they already have power (if any)?
Lepen's attitudes to immigration, brown people and Islam are appalling.
I'm fairly sure her policy on Europe would be catastrophic for the French economy.
She engages the worst kind of demagoguery and populism, appealing to people by offering simple, "obvious" answers to complex problems. You can't find a job? It's so simple! It's the brown people's fault! If the FN told me the sky was blue I would go and check.
It's the same old ugly nationalism dressed up to look reasonable and acceptable. Which makes it even more dangerous than her father's brand. There was no doubting that he was a raging racist antisemite, so less people got taken in.
-------------------- Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by la vie en rouge: I don’t think Marine Lepen is stupid. I think she is very, very intelligent. That’s what worries me.
I don’t think the time has come for a Lepen presidency. My prediction for the 2017 presidential election is this: she will make it into the second round in first place ahead of someone from the (non-extreme) right, possibly Nicolas Sarkozy. At this point people will dig out their old “I am ashamed to be French” placards from the last time this happened and take to the streets beating their breasts. The second round will have a turn-out of 90%, large numbers of people will vote “anyone but Lepen” with a clothes peg on their nose and the other candidate will win, whoever they are. You heard it here first.
OTOH, while Lepen may be incapable of getting elected President, I think there is a very real possibility of the FN taking a couple of regions, especially the ones like foie gras land where the other candidates are stubbornly refusing to do any kind of deal with each other to keep them out. That alone is reason enough to be very afraid AFAIC.
That is pretty much what happened before. In 2002 Marine's evil father, Jean-Marie LePen got to the second round in a head-to-head with Jacques Chirac. Although the election was billed as "The Crook versus the Nazi", Chirac won with 82% of the vote.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Most or all of the non-Donalds in the clown car have called Trump on his rhetoric. Not often or enough, perhaps, but they've not been entirely silent.
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: In 2002 Marine's evil father, Jean-Marie LePen got to the second round in a head-to-head with Jacques Chirac. Although the election was billed as "The Crook versus the Nazi", Chirac won with 82% of the vote.
If Hillary goes toe to toe with the Donald, it will be billed as the Wall Street shill versus the madman. [ 08. December 2015, 17:57: Message edited by: mousethief ]
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is Ms. LePen married? I had a sudden horrible vision of crossing her line with a Trump.
On a more cheery note, American mayors bar Trump from their towns.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Not my fave, but nevertheless -
Boris (Mayor of London) has responded thus:- quote: ...Crime has been falling steadily both in London and in New York - the only reason I wouldn't go to some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump.
[ 08. December 2015, 18:52: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Why does Donald Trump refer to himself in the third person?
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Clearly, because Jehovah does. Only the best for Trump!
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Trump: the T is silent.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'm surprised Boris and Trump-et don't get on. They share a hairdresser, after all.
-------------------- arse
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Barnabbas62's one word answer "Fear" is what's happening here. Millions of refugees heading into the EU from Africa and the Middle East. Paris attacked by Muslim extremists twice in one year. What do you expect? These situations always breed extremism. We tend to be tolerant when our lives are easy. When we all have jobs and there is prosperity. When nobody threatens our security. The current situation in Europe is dire. Mrs. Merkel will soon discover that her own people don't share with enthusiasm her offer of asylum to almost a million people. Fences are going up all over Europe. Shengen is a dead duck in the present situation. However much we may hate it, it isn't difficult to see what's going on.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: Why does Donald Trump refer to himself in the third person?
He is an unlikely Rastafarian.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Trump: the T is silent.
-------------------- "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: Why does Donald Trump refer to himself in the third person?
Because he thinks he's Gaius Julius Caesar?
-------------------- "Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I used to think that people with such extremist views, vile words and bad hairstyles were OK because they could never get elected. Then I look at the last 20 years in the US and UK and realise that I have it wrong. I realise what the truth is:
A whole lot of very stupid, selfish, manipulable people have the vote*.
Because the voting system is not truly democratic, this means that vile, manipulative people can get power. So maybe the answer is that people should stop voting for the curry-meal-excrement of the earth, just because they are promised everything they want. Politicians lie, some more than others. In the end, all they want is power, and it wont corrupt them, because they are already utterly corrupt.
* I don't mean that everyone who votes Tory is stupid. I mean that there are a lot of stupid voters.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by Ariel: Why does Donald Trump refer to himself in the third person?
He is an unlikely Rastafarian.
Rastafarians do that??
I saw on Wikipedia that one of his wives {Ivana?} started the nickname "The Donald".
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Golden Key: Rastafarians do that??
What I know is that Rastafarians don't use the personal pronoun that renders them as an object, so they say 'I' instead of 'me'. Sometimes this becomes 'I and I', and then it includes Jah.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Maybe the American right wing idea that Obama is a Muslim is actually a psychological projection of the guilt they have over the fact that Trump is a secret Rastafarian.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
You think the Rastas would accept Trump with a hairstyle like that? I mean, they may celebrate by not washing or brushing their hair, but I think the Trump-wig would be beyond the bounds of acceptability.
I suspect he refers to himself in the third person to distance himself from his own vile views. Maybe there is a part of him that is still human, and realises that he spouts dangerous diarrhoea.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think Trump is a prime example of someone who uses bullshit, as opposed to merely lying. As in, the truth is irrelevant to him, rather than something he deliberately tries to misrepresent. [ 09. December 2015, 10:40: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat: Because the voting system is not truly democratic
In what way?
quote: So maybe the answer is that people should stop voting for the curry-meal-excrement of the earth, just because they are promised everything they want.
Even if "everything they want" is stuff like higher welfare spending, more immigration, etc?
quote: Politicians lie, some more than others. In the end, all they want is power, and it wont corrupt them, because they are already utterly corrupt.
Now this, I agree with. Without exception.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat: Because the voting system is not truly democratic
In what way?
Money - you can't get elected without shedloads of money behind you one way or another.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat: Because the voting system is not truly democratic
In what way?
Money - you can't get elected without shedloads of money behind you one way or another.
Partly that, meaning that so many elected representatives are so beholden to their paymasters, but also that we don't have a proportional system. So if you win certain votes, then you can achieve power out of proportion to your actual popularity.
The thing is, I don't want more immigration. I think most immigrants would prefer to stay in their own countries, safe, with work, happy and content. What I accept is that so many people cannot, and so I accept that we have a moral duty to accept more immigrants, welcome them, embrace what they bring. I don't want more welfare spending, but I accept that we need to provide for those less well off than us.
OK, it is a subtle difference, but the main point is that not thinking of what I want but what others need influences my voting. I wish we thought of others, not just ourselves and those like us.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Uncle Pete: My dream is an impermeable wall between Canada and the US to keep all those nutjobs out. With a small one-way door to export all our home-grown nutjobs so they can be with like people. And mostly to keep my newly minted American citizen brother who agrees with those idiots away from me.
Well, if Trump's sense of geography is anything like G.W.'s it might well be what you get.
... although he will be billing you for it.
-------------------- ... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by la vie en rouge: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Dangerous in what way? What do you think they would do were they to gain power? What have they done in any local authorities where they already have power (if any)?
Lepen's attitudes to immigration, brown people and Islam are appalling.
I'm fairly sure her policy on Europe would be catastrophic for the French economy.
She engages the worst kind of demagoguery and populism, appealing to people by offering simple, "obvious" answers to complex problems. You can't find a job? It's so simple! It's the brown people's fault! If the FN told me the sky was blue I would go and check.
It's the same old ugly nationalism dressed up to look reasonable and acceptable. Which makes it even more dangerous than her father's brand. There was no doubting that he was a raging racist antisemite, so less people got taken in.
I suspect that she'll get more of a vote this time around as repackaged, fluffy racism is easier to vote for than nasty old, proper racism. (As the rise of UKIP in the UK shows. People will happily vote for them whilst denouncing the BNP. But they're not that different). People just won't admit it was them.
Tubbs
-------------------- "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Haven't France's extreme right-wing and neo-fascist groups always been dangerous? They partly led to the Algerian disaster, the collaboration with the Nazis, and Dreyfus, (going backwards in time).
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Haven't France's extreme right-wing and neo-fascist groups always been dangerous?
Well they certainly were given two fingers up in 1789.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think Tubbs has a point, but it is even more than that. We have always had extremist groups - hard right wing and hard left wing organisations. They have served to demonstrate the dangers of extremism and provide the impression of free speech.
On occasions, they managed to get elected somewhere, usually for a single term, and without any real power. They served as a political MRLP for disaffected voters, which is a useful thing to do, alerting those in power to voter concerns.
The difference now is that they are actually in danger of achieving some power. UKIP do have a number of Euro MPs, and Trump is actually considered a viable candidate. That is not in the story - they are supposed to spout extremist drivel, engage a few supporters, and remain totally unelectable. Like the Socialist Workers Party.
Having extreme crazy parties around is not new, and not a problem. What is a problem is when they slightly soften their rhetoric and become electable. I mean, Screaming Lord Sutch is a character, but nobody seriously wanted him as PM.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat: I mean, Screaming Lord Sutch is a character, but nobody seriously wanted him as PM.
A few years ago I remember seeing a list of policies the Monster Raving Loony Party first proposed over the years (for the benefit of overseas readers they've been going since the 1960s I think) which had subsequently been implemented.
It was surprisingly long and included things like compulsory seat belts in cars. [ 10. December 2015, 07:37: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
-------------------- And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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