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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hypocrisy
shamwari
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Jeremy Corbyn pleaded for a kinder, more humane politics when he became leader of the Labour Party.

What happened?

At the first real test his acolytes trash one of his own MPs constituency offices and engage in the most puerile form of bullying, not of his opponents but of his own party members.

God help us.

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quetzalcoatl
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Citation?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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shamwari
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TV and newspaper pics
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LeRoc

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I'm not following UK politics very well, but I do have to say that I'm surprised by the way people are talking about Jeremy Corbyn.

It seems to have gotten down now to just saying "Corbyn has done X, so he is nasty" where X is randomly filled in with whatever and then you're done.

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Humble Servant
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
TV and newspaper pics

Anything on-line yet. My googling is failing to turn anything up.
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Humble Servant
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Though I must say my heart sank when I heard he'd brought Ken Livingstone back. Ken did not disappoint in his first radio interview, unapologetically likening politics to a playground scrap.
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Pottage
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
TV and newspaper pics

Anything on-line yet. My googling is failing to turn anything up.
Google News gave me scores of reports like this one if that's any help:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/syria-air-strikes-pro-war-mps-have-been-bullied-by-extremists-say-labour-figure s-a6758026.html

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Penny S
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Why should Livingstone apologise for likening politics to a playground scrap? The sound effects from the chamber don't exactly suggest anything very different.
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Doublethink.
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Corbyn has made a strongly worded, and very clear, condemnation of online trolling which has been put out on facebook and on twitter.

However, I don't think trolls are exclusive to party or side of this debate.

That said I do think it is legitimate to lobby your own mp, and your party, on issues you feel strongly about.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Enoch
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For those old enough to remember, this is so nostalgic. It takes one back to the dear old days of Militant Tendency and earlier. It makes one quite sentimental.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doublethink.
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I do remember and I don't think is really a helpful comparison.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Humble Servant
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Why should Livingstone apologise for likening politics to a playground scrap? The sound effects from the chamber don't exactly suggest anything very different.

Because his boss had told us he wants a gentler, kinder politics. Then he recruits a man with a reputation for the opposite, who promptly calls someone mentally ill, and then says he said it because he felt the other guy had sleighed him. Then refused to apologise until Corbyn had had a word with him. All predictable if you remember when Livingstone led the GLC. If you want to go back to those days, fair enough; but if you want it to be gentler and kinder, you've got to pick you team a bit more carefully.
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Doublethink.
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That would be more possible if half the plp weren't having a big sulk.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Humble Servant
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But enough about that. What's all this about a constituency office getting trashed? I still haven't heard any reports. Shamwari, can you give us a link?
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Humble Servant
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(sorry, just been watching the Apprentice. Lord Sugar hat off now.)
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Martin60
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Hypocrisy by whom?

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Love wins

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quetzalcoatl
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The only story I've seen is that Stella Creasy's house was targeted by protesters. However, this looks like a fake - the photo which has been shown is in fact of a protest starting at a mosque, and going to the Labour office. No damage to the office, so maybe shamwari can come up with an accurate link?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
[QUOTE]... then says he said it because he felt the other guy had sleighed him. ...

Well it is Christmas! A lot of sleighs about.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Touchstone
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I think the sudden elevation of Jez from obscure hard-left hack to saviour of British politics has some of the characteristics of a religious revival. Many people have invested completely unrealistic hopes in him which are bound to be disappointed.

Just as Jesus can't be blamed for the atrocious behaviour of many of his supposed followers, Corbyn is not responsible for his new-found disciples working out their resentments and tribalism.

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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The only story I've seen is that Stella Creasy's house was targeted by protesters. However, this looks like a fake - the photo which has been shown is in fact of a protest starting at a mosque, and going to the Labour office. No damage to the office, so maybe shamwari can come up with an accurate link?

My facebook feed has a note from someone involved in the demonstration. The reports of it being a violent protest, of damage done or anything like that is false - it is a manipulated story with no real basis. As I know people in Walthamstow, and I think I would have heard if there had been something more violent.

So it looks like more scandal-mongering amongst anti-Corbyn people. And have suckered shamwari, it seems.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I think the sudden elevation of Jez from obscure hard-left hack to saviour of British politics has some of the characteristics of a religious revival. Many people have invested completely unrealistic hopes in him which are bound to be disappointed.

Just as Jesus can't be blamed for the atrocious behaviour of many of his supposed followers, Corbyn is not responsible for his new-found disciples working out their resentments and tribalism.

The Corbyn bandwaggon is attracting a number of fringe types, who haven't much to do with Labour in any way shape or form. The comparison with Militant fails as Jeremy Corbyn is no Dave Nellist or Terry Fields although I've no doubt there are hard-left types there, who leave me way behind.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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quetzalcoatl
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Incidentally, the lie about the demo outside Stella Creasy's home travelled the length of Fleet St, with few retractions, as it became clear that it was a lie. The honourable exception was the Mirror, which published the photo of the demo, and correctly identified it as not outside her home.

But there are many lies about Corbyn. As the OP says, God help us.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[The reports of it being a violent protest, of damage done or anything like that is false - it is a manipulated story with no real basis.

It's almost as though the UK media have got some problem with Corbyn...

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Martin60
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By me for a start.

I used the terms 'backstabber' and 'drongo' in a frenzy of Tweeting (I was a Twitter virgin until last Saturday, now I'm a sexaholic) to Richard Burgon MP for East Leeds about John Woodcock MP for Barrow & Furness.

No excuse. I'm more and more ashamed of myself. But not yet ashamed enough! So I Tweeted an apology to John. It's odd, I don't feel as guilty as I should.

What's that about?

And I lay in to the ABC here and elsewhere without regret at all.

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Love wins

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Incidentally, the lie about the demo outside Stella Creasy's home travelled the length of Fleet St, with few retractions, as it became clear that it was a lie. The honourable exception was the Mirror, which published the photo of the demo, and correctly identified it as not outside her home.

But there are many lies about Corbyn. As the OP says, God help us.

Details.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Barnabas62
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Yes, I saw that. At least the Guardian came clean.

Sometimes the news media are just lazy. If it makes a good storyline, run with it, run it into the ground. 24/7 news reporting has made "shallow" imperative, since there is no real time for detailed checks. Also, it's possible to use the "shallow" dimension in support of all kinds of agenda, as we have daily proof.

Although there are still some honourable exceptions, much of the media seems to me, increasingly, a lost cause in the pursuit of accuracy. In the world of "bread and circuses", the circus element now dominates the bread element.

But, like you, Doublethink, I'm very glad to see the moves to establish a code of conduct for members re social network behaviour. That might help to remove the "rabble" dimension from Momentum. I think Jeremy Corbyn's sincerity and consistency have given him some moral authority. It's important that he protects that.

In this world of increasing misrepresentation, you have to guard your reputation for truth-telling. And, as part of that process, do your best to correct would-be-mobocracy fellow travellers, however well-meaning they may be, when their enthusiasm gets the better of them.

[ 05. December 2015, 09:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[The reports of it being a violent protest, of damage done or anything like that is false - it is a manipulated story with no real basis.

It's almost as though the UK media have got some problem with Corbyn...
He doesn't fit the narrative. He keeps wrong-footing people, the media more than his fellow politicians, I think.

I think we should reflect on this. What is it that he is exposing as false in our received wisdom? How can someone so far from the expected in his approach and manner that he is derided, dismissed and misreported on a scale without precedent, repeatedly confound his critics?

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Martin60
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I can't find ANY footage of the mob (Eenin Stannut quote, Channel 4 News on VUH SUN!) 'intimidating staff members' (Tom Watson).

Anyone?

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Love wins

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Barnabas62
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There isn't any.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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YES!!!!
death mob bays for blood of mps

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Love wins

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PaulTH*
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Jeremy Corbyn is like all hard line socialists. He's a dictator and a bully. Having opposed his own party countless times, he made it clear what view he takes of those members who opposed him in the Commons vote. Alan Johnson in his speech fully expected to "hear from" the leadership over his voting intentions, and Ken Livingstone hinted in a TV interview that de-selection was a reasonable option for opponents of the leader's pacifist stance. Given Corbyn's parliamentary record, this is hypocrisy of the highest order, to be expected from his political ilk.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Martin60
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I'm sure the Temple Mafia felt just the same, poor dears.

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Love wins

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Jeremy Corbyn is like all hard line socialists. He's a dictator and a bully.

Dictator? So why did he allow a free vote?
Bulloy? Who says and do you believe the right wing press?

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Doublethink.
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Corbyn is not a pacifist.

Nor was Tony Benn.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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PaulTH*
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He allowed a free vote because of the potential fallout from his shadow cabinet. I saw Ken Livingstone imply that they can be dealt with later by de-selection. If that isn't bullying, what do you call it? I don't need the right wing press to be filled with horror at the thought that men like Corbyn and McDonnell may some day be leaders on the international stage.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Barnabas62
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PaulTH*

You've got him wrong. Whatever your views of the hard left socialists, you have to take this into account from someone who knows him much better than you do and who voted against him. (This from Hilary Benn's speech)

quote:
Although my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition and I will walk into different division lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak from the same Despatch Box as him. My right honourable friend is not a terrorist sympathiser, he is an honest, a principled, a decent and a good man and I think the Prime Minister must now regret what he said yesterday and his failure to do what he should have done today, which is simply to say ‘I am sorry’.
"An honest, a principled, a decent and a good man". There's a lot more evidence for that than your assertion.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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Aye, they {a,we}ren't perfect Doublethink. Just the best there {i,wa}s.

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Love wins

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PaulTH*
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I thought the Prime Minister's description of opponents of the bill as "terrorist sympathisers" was a disgrace that warranted a humble apology. But I think there are definitely question marks over some of the Labour leadership's attitude to terrorism, particularly John McDonnell and Ken Livingstone.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
He allowed a free vote because of the potential fallout from his shadow cabinet. I saw Ken Livingstone imply that they can be dealt with later by de-selection. If that isn't bullying, what do you call it? I don't need the right wing press to be filled with horror at the thought that men like Corbyn and McDonnell may some day be leaders on the international stage.

If saying someone may lose office because of the way they vote in the commons is bullying, what is a general election ?

The rules on deselection have not changed, and being deselected as a candidate for a particular political party does not trigger a by-election

Bullying is things like, sending abusive and demeaning messages. Or shouting and screaming at people. Or persistently undermining and denigrating people over a period of time.

I don't deny that some people were harrassing mps, and that was clearly condemned by the leadership.

I would argue that a small group of mps - and massess of online trolls - were also trying bully Corbyn. (I'd note that there is online trolling in both directs of all parties, especially party leaders.)

But messaging mps to say what you think, i.e. lobbying mps, is reasonable and appropriate. I think it is unreasonable for mps to complain they got alot of people contacting asking them to vote a particular way - that is political engagement. If people don't contact them to say what they think, how are they supposed to know what anyone thinks except other mps and the press ?

[ 05. December 2015, 11:29: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Martin60
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Mine too.

I can't do Batman any more.

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Love wins

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hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Jeremy Corbyn is like all hard line socialists. He's a dictator and a bully. Having opposed his own party countless times, he made it clear what view he takes of those members who opposed him in the Commons vote. Alan Johnson in his speech fully expected to "hear from" the leadership over his voting intentions, and Ken Livingstone hinted in a TV interview that de-selection was a reasonable option for opponents of the leader's pacifist stance. Given Corbyn's parliamentary record, this is hypocrisy of the highest order, to be expected from his political ilk.

I think, PaulTH, that you're being serious, but this is a fine example of the received narrative that Corbyn fails to fit.

He's 'like all hard line socialists' a 'dictator and a bully' but we actually see a mild-mannered man who has formed a team that includes a wide range of views, who has sought questions from the public and asked them in PMQs, who has given his party a free vote on Syria and allowed the pro-war Benn to close the debate. He has not stormed and stamped his feet over the frustrations of politics like a dictator or a bully would, but has been calm and measured. He gives the impression of consistency, of playing the long game, sticking to principles acquired long ago, and of having patience. None of the ego of the bully.

But the narrative persists.

Why is this? Why do we know what Corbyn is like and even when he turns out to be very different, insist that he is as we thought, like all hardline socialists?

I wonder if Corbyn not only represents a different view from the recent centre right, Blairite Tory consensus, but an approach, an aesthetic if you like, that is seriously undermining of the certainties of our politics. He does what everyone knows you can't do, only it turns out you can. He adopts policies known to be electorally disastrous, and - what the heck? - they're not.

(I don't think it's the big question, but one thing it raises is whether all those who have long hinted they would like more generous welfare, a more equal society, etc. but who say that it's politically impossible, actually do want these things. Corbyn calls a lot of bluffs.)

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
He allowed a free vote because of the potential fallout from his shadow cabinet. I saw Ken Livingstone imply that they can be dealt with later by de-selection. If that isn't bullying, what do you call it? I don't need the right wing press to be filled with horror at the thought that men like Corbyn and McDonnell may some day be leaders on the international stage.

Ken Livingstone is a bully, I think. That doesn't mean that Corbyn is. Corbyn is a man of principles, who stands by what he believes, rather than just changing according to what makes him popular. He is also someone who is prepared to listen to those who disagree with him.

I might not agree with his principles, in total, but I admire that he has them. I would rather have principled politicians than the slimy dunghill across the floor from him.

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat:Ken Livingstone is a bully, I think. That doesn't mean that Corbyn is. Corbyn is a man of principles, who stands by what he believes.
I don't dispute that Corbyn is a man of principle. But what if his principles are wrong and blinkered by his ideology? The day after Alan Henning was beheaded by Jihadi John, Jeremy Corbyn said it was "the result of war and jingoism." I beg to differ. In WW2 the Nazi's, notwithstanding their vile treatment of Jews, Gypsies and gays, treated British prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention. They were given food and medical treatment where needed. The Japanese tortured many of their prisoners and received international ostracism for doing so. Alan Henning was a humanitarian worker who put his life on the line to help people.

So why did Corbyn say that his treatment was the fault of the British state rather than condemning the barbaric, medieval philosophy of IS? This is the same as John McDonnel's claim that the violence of Irish terrorists and that of the state can be equated. I hope people wake up to how dangerous this new Labour leadership is while we still have time.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat:Ken Livingstone is a bully, I think. That doesn't mean that Corbyn is. Corbyn is a man of principles, who stands by what he believes.
I don't dispute that Corbyn is a man of principle. But what if his principles are wrong and blinkered by his ideology? The day after Alan Henning was beheaded by Jihadi John, Jeremy Corbyn said it was "the result of war and jingoism." I beg to differ. In WW2 the Nazi's, notwithstanding their vile treatment of Jews, Gypsies and gays, treated British prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention. They were given food and medical treatment where needed. The Japanese tortured many of their prisoners and received international ostracism for doing so. Alan Henning was a humanitarian worker who put his life on the line to help people.

So why did Corbyn say that his treatment was the fault of the British state rather than condemning the barbaric, medieval philosophy of IS? This is the same as John McDonnel's claim that the violence of Irish terrorists and that of the state can be equated. I hope people wake up to how dangerous this new Labour leadership is while we still have time.

Maybe they will also look at the government and consider how many deaths will happen earlier as a result of recent changes to welfare and health policies. Just as certain but less dramatic.

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Maybe they will also look at the government and consider how many deaths will happen earlier as a result of recent changes to welfare and health policies. Just as certain but less dramatic.

That's a bogus analogy. You may have the opinion that changes to welfare and health policies can cause deaths. Those who formulate such policies may disagree with you and only time will tell. But we know what happened when Jihadi John beheaded Alan Henning with a knife. Neither Corbyn, McDonnell nor Livingstone can bring themselves to condemn out of hand, the vile terrorists who assault us. So they are dangerous people in which to place our trust.

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hatless

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# 3365

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I'm not sure you should place your trust in Corbyn, Livingstone or McDonnell. Livingstone strikes me as a schemer and manipulator, a proper politician with his smile and his through his teeth voice, and McDonnell has an air of menace about him, I think. Corbyn has consistency, may be out of his depth, but keeps surprising with his appealing sense of purpose.

But I think we need something much more grown up than getting everyone to endorse our sense of outrage. Of course the beheading of an aid worker is an outrage, a grisly, lurid and repellent act by a group that relishes such things.

Adults, though, ask why, and wonder what might be done. What might defuse ISIS? What might make their sympathisers in the West, such as the couple in America this week, think better of acting with them? I'm sure it's not violent retaliation by us.

I think we need the courage and the nerve to act in a different way, to avoid hitting back out of outrage and to shift the moral ground. We must define terrorism as a crime, not war. We must have confidence in due process. We must be proportionate and calm. We must not be provoked, especially by those who try so hard to provoke.

No doubt those who fight for ISIS believe they are doing the right thing. No doubt they feel they are people of courage and vision, and that they have justice in their cause.

So what produces a perspective so alien to mine? What experiences, what beliefs, what set of options makes the murder of innocents and suicide by explosive jacket seem like a good thing to do today?

It's hard to know, but wanting to find out and wanting to see if those experiences, beliefs and options can be affected by me and us seems like the grown up response.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Neither Corbyn, McDonnell nor Livingstone can bring themselves to condemn out of hand, the vile terrorists who assault us. So they are dangerous people in which to place our trust.

You say that as if condemning anyone out of hand is a good thing.
If I recall correctly, there was some religious figure who said something on the subject.

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
We must define terrorism as a crime, not war.

This was the stance of the British government throughout the Irish Troubles. They consistently refused to grant any political status to IRA terrorists, who in their turn demanded to be treated as prisoners of war. As we were never at war with Ireland, the terrorists were wrong. I'm not sure how we can make it work here. As with most terrorist organisations, the enemy is a phantom, not a person or a state. I would agree with treating them as the criminals they are.

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
You say that as if condemning anyone out of hand is a good thing.
If I recall correctly, there was some religious figure who said something on the subject.

Well perhaps we don't live on the same planet. I'm quite prepared to condemn out of hand an organisation that kidnaps a relief worker bringing humanitarian aid to a war zone, and then publicly beheads him with a knife. If you don't feel that these actions are worthy of condemnation, please enlighten us. If any of our political leaders don't want to condemn this, they I know they are people I can't ever vote for. As to what a mythical religious figure may have said: he didn't know the world we live in any more than we know the world he lived in. Terrorism must always be condemned and politicians who refuse to do so should be shunned at the ballot box.

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Paul

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I don't dispute that Corbyn is a man of principle. But what if his principles are wrong and blinkered by his ideology? The day after Alan Henning was beheaded by Jihadi John, Jeremy Corbyn said it was "the result of war and jingoism." ...

Not only that. Being 'a man of principle' does not make one a good person or raise one above other people. It has very little to do with it. Stalin wasn't one. Nor was Mao. Both Lenin and Trotsky were 'men of principle', bad principles which had a bad influence on how they lived and what happened to those around them.

I am sure that many of the key leaders of the Daesh are men of principle. Those principles are what drive them to ignore what should otherwise be their inner humanity.

What matters, is what those principles are, what effects they have and, irrespective, and independently of those principles, what is the quality of a person's life.


In that sense, I've no idea whether Jeremy Corbyn is a good man or a bad one. His having principles and being perceived as sticking to them is largely irrelevant to that.

[ 05. December 2015, 20:52: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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