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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fort McMurray
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The fires have now grown larger than the size of Manhattan and are doubling every 24 hours. 80,000 have been evacuated and have lost everything. Many are trapped on the roads leading out of Ft McMurry because there was not enough petrol/gas available.
Why did this happen? Global Warming, to be sure. Northern Alberta has never seen drought conditions like this--in fact it is approaching the drought conditions that California has been experiencing for over four years.
Ft McMurry happens to be where the Canadian Tar Sands are. Americans have been resisting developing the Tar Sands because of the potential for even more Global warming.
Yet so many other Americans resist saying global warming is human caused.
A lot to unpack here.
Pray for the people of Ft McMurry--or at least keep them in your thoughts.
But then act
1) By donating moneys to a relief agency of your choice. DO NOT attempt to sent clothing or even drinking water (causes even more pollution) By donating money local relief responders can be able to purchase what needed immediately and help to develop long term recovery procjects.
2) Work to insure that the Paris Accords are fully implemented. All the more reason way Americans need to elect a Democratic president (I prefer a socialist one myself) and regain control of the Congress to ratify the accords and pass legislation needed to bring it about.
3) Vote Green on the next ballot. Here is Washington State there is an initiative on the ballot to develop a carbon credit exchange system modeled, coincidentally like the British Columbia system.
I do have to fault the Canadian government for not doing more to protect its people. If the fires had been in California thousands of firefighters would have responded within 24 hours. However, the Canadians only had around 350 firefighters on the front lines for the first 72 hours.
Now, though, the Canadian military is ramping up its response.
But the only thing that will be able to put the fires down so they can be controlled is rain, and lots of it
Rain is in the forecast for the area.
[corrected thread title]
[ 07. May 2016, 05:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Ft. McMurray is the correct spelling.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
As if one of those 80,000 is feeling pedantic.
Can't see insurance companies stepping up to the plate in a big way.
Just hope and pray significant rainfall arrives before too much more devastation is wrought.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If a call to prayer makes us DO something, amen.
Laborare est orare.
PS and yes, please Lord, MAKE it rain.
[ 07. May 2016, 09:53: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I agree, Martin I tend to think of prayer as a way of contemplating what would God have me do in answer to a situation. I have listed three ways I will be helping out.
Sorry about misspelling.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
While I do not quibble with climate scientists, another thing to remember is that fires are part of life in the arid West. Ecosystems evolved to reproduce after cyclical fires long before we put permanent dwellings there. We don't help by putting out small fires rather than letting them burn. Apparently they have far fewer major fires in Northern Mexico than Southern California because they let the small ones burn.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
another thing to remember is that fires are part of life in the arid West
I'm intrigued by the idea that a boreal forest north of the 49th is 'arid'.
Is this historically the case, or has shifting climate made this more likely now?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If a call to prayer makes us DO something, amen.
Laborare est orare.
PS and yes, please Lord, MAKE it rain.
While I would agree with the general principle that we need to supplement our prayers with decisive action, as one who has survived several of these sorts of large-scale wildfires, it might be fruitful to remember that there really is very little we can do in this particular situation except pray.
Some version of the "serenity prayer" applies here. Sometimes there are real, important things we can do-- and should do. And prayer may be (among other things-- I reject the suggestion this is all prayer is) the impetus to action. But sometimes we pray precisely because there is nothing else we can do. And that, too, has profound spiritual implications.
Pray for rain. Pray for comfort. Pray for safety both for those in the path of the fires and particularly for the firefighters. Pray for the presence and comfort of God. These are familiar prayers for us Californians.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
another thing to remember is that fires are part of life in the arid West
I'm intrigued by the idea that a boreal forest north of the 49th is 'arid'.
Is this historically the case, or has shifting climate made this more likely now?
I probably used "arid" casually, but 16 inches a year is apparently the average precipitation. That's not a whole lot of rain.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If a call to prayer makes us DO something, amen.
Laborare est orare.
PS and yes, please Lord, MAKE it rain.
While I would agree with the general principle that we need to supplement our prayers with decisive action, as one who has survived several of these sorts of large-scale wildfires, it might be fruitful to remember that there really is very little we can do in this particular situation except pray.
Some version of the "serenity prayer" applies here. Sometimes there are real, important things we can do-- and should do. And prayer may be (among other things-- I reject the suggestion this is all prayer is) the impetus to action. But sometimes we pray precisely because there is nothing else we can do. And that, too, has profound spiritual implications.
Pray for rain. Pray for comfort. Pray for safety both for those in the path of the fires and particularly for the firefighters. Pray for the presence and comfort of God. These are familiar prayers for us Californians.
Aye, the ACT creates head space.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I've taken the drive from Vancouver to Jasper and a lot of the landscape did strike me as a species of desert, especially round Kamloops.
And with all that resin, the greenest conifer will burn like a match.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is not the time to talk climate change. The smoke is thick this morning here, and we live 600 km away. The sun is shining red through it. The fed gov't is matching donations. People are losing everything. Much as I decry the enviro destruction of the tar sands, everyone here knows people who live and work there.
Re fire fighting and personnel. The western provinces are enormous and sparsely populated. We simply don't have the people and equipment for this massive scale. For scale, California contains the same number of people that the entire country of Canada does. Alberta is 30% larger than California. It has about 10 or 15% of the population of that state.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Actually, the average rainfall for Ft. McMurray is 18.3 inches. The average where I live is 21 inches and we are dry land farmers--meaning that there is enough moisture for our crops without the need for irrigation.
Ft McMurray is at the southern edge of the Boreal Forest. This forest is usually moist and swampy. McMurray gets most of its rainfall in the summer, actually. But the Super El Nino has disrupted normal weather patterns.
Parts of Canada are experiencing the worst drought they have had in 350 years.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I guess it depends on your source (the average rainfall, that is). I didn't pull 16 out of thin air. Either way, that extra two inches a year still puts you right in there with other dry parts of the West. Hasn't Eastern Washington had wildfire trouble in the past?
As I said, I am not a climate change denier. I just want to point out that wildfires are part of life in the West. The ecosystem has evolved to regenerate through the fire cycle, and many plants depend on fires for reproduction. We moved here, it's the nightmare scenario we have to be aware of. It's still upsetting when it happens.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not exactly the southern edge. Edmonton is the southern edge of the boreal forest, and the edge goes south east towards Lake of The Woods on the Manitoba-American border.
A friend messaged me this morning that he's calling his home phone. If the answering machine picks up, he knows the house is still there.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
As I said, I am not a climate change denier. I just want to point out that wildfires are part of life in the West. The ecosystem has evolved to regenerate through the fire cycle, and many plants depend on fires for reproduction. We moved here, it's the nightmare scenario we have to be aware of. It's still upsetting when it happens.
And, at least in the American West (can't speak for Canada) our practice of containing smaller fires (often to save private homes such as my own) has exasperated those natural cycles by allowing fuel (dry brush, etc) to accumulate, making the big wildfires all the more destructive.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Thinking long term is there any mileage in maintaing fire breaks around the cities, and/or a canal ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Thinking long term is there any mileage in maintaing fire breaks around the cities, and/or a canal ?
Can't speak for Canada, but here in California, the cities are right next to each other-- one big urban sprawl-- that builds right up to the nat'l forests. There are fire breaks pretty much everywhere between the nat'l forests and the housing on the edge, but in recent years wildfires have jumped those breaks-- and even whole freeways. Mostly that's a result of our notorious Santa Ana winds. Is that a factor in Fort McMurray as well?
(Canals? Filled with what? We don't have any water to spare!)
Does Fort McMurray have access to the super-scoopers that we use here in California? Any large bodies of water nearby? (Those are pretty awesome to see the few times I've been on the beach when one has filled up)
[ 07. May 2016, 18:32: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I don't know the Alberta story. I only know the story of where I live.
Environmentalists say for centuries ground fires came through my area about every 7 years (tree ring analysis). Fire is needed by the local pine trees to open their cones and release seeds. Regular small ground fires kept undergrowth thinned enough for some sunlight to get through and sprout food for forest critters.
Native Americans thrived in this environment, moving in a multi year cycles following the bison who followed the spouting of new tender plants after fires.
The settlers brought with them the Western attitude that life is war and nature is an enemy to dominated. They refused to live in harmony with nature; instead they built permanent structures and defend them by opposing nature's fire cycles.
All fires were stopped for many decades.
Then we had a devastating fire. Over 1200 houses gone. This was not the historically normal little ground fire that merely scorched one side of some of the tree trunks, it was - well, the photos from Albert look familiar. I have seen the night sky clouds red with reflected fire, yellow fire ball above the tree tops jumping twice the width of a firelane, weeks to put it out. I have walked on what was left of a friend's house - collapsed metal roof over heaps of debris and three stairs to the slab, that disorientation of looking at something wondering "what was that?" and figuring out from location it was not the computer it was the window air conditioner. The rack of dishes in the washer, visible though the now non-walls. An intact book, amazed it escaped the fire! Start to pick it up in wonder but it is just ashes, powdery fine ashes in the shape of an intact book.
Gone. Everything. All those decades of suppressed little fires exploded into one monster, fueled by multi decades of undergrowth left to grow into fuel instead of being naturally trimmed every 7 years.
I grew up in a culture that views reality as war. All of nature is enemy to be fought and beaten and subdued, not to be studied to see how we can work together.
Disease is viewed (in the western model) as outside invaders to war against even when the battle itself damages health (in spite of the fact most disease has no invader, instead something naturally part of us is out of whack -- blood sugar insulin not doing it's job right, calcium freezing joints instead of building bones, brain damaged physically by a concussion.)
We have war on enjoying plants God made with psychactive components such as alcohol and peyote and cannabis,
We have war on undefined concepts like "terrorism."
War on so many things the concept is cliche.
"Life is war and anything blocking me from what I want is an enemy to be destroyed" prevents us from learning how to get along together, with our bodies, our neighbors, nature.
So long as we view reality as primarily consisting of wars to be fought so we can impose our will, we will continue intentionally destroying our environment and calling it "victory."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Gramps49, are you expecting this thread to wind up in Hell? Your statements are so full of falsehoods and lack knowledge of the situation that I had to give up trying to respond. I realize that you are trying but seriously, you are only hurting the situation by bringing such a wildly inaccurate bunch of statements together in one OP.
I am disgusted by it and angry that you would think it is okay. I guess this is how people feel when disasters arrive in other places. I'll try to be more compassionate when second guessing and backseat driving.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Thinking long term is there any mileage in maintaing fire breaks around the cities, and/or a canal ?
Yes. But this fire jumped a 4 lane highway. If the lanes were all scrunched together, it would be equivalent to about 7 lanes. But a treeless break like that or a made fire break are not useful when it is windy. Bits of burning things get picked up and thrown 500 metres or farther, starting a new tinder point.
The amount of snow this past winter - we live in the same weather system - was low. Gramps is wrong about summer rain. Normal is snow to melt giving subsoil moisture, then spring rains. Followed by warm not very rainy summers. We are very dependent on winter for moisture.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
Gramps49, are you expecting this thread to wind up in Hell? Your statements are so full of falsehoods and lack knowledge of the situation that I had to give up trying to respond. I realize that you are trying but seriously, you are only hurting the situation by bringing such a wildly inaccurate bunch of statements together in one OP.
I must be missing something...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
CBC news info . This gives pretty good details of development.
Up to date details as of 1600 (4pm) local time, 07May . 7 hrs behind UK summer time.
The fire is going toward Saskatchewan. The community of LaLoche is directly east, it was the site of a school shooting earlier this year.
[ 07. May 2016, 22:10: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Lily
Not sure where you say I am spreading falsehoods
80,000 people had to be evacuated from Ft McMurray
More, when you add in other outlying communities
The evacuation was chaotic. The people had to leave with little more than clothing on their backs, and maybe their pets. Videos show cars having to drive through a wall of fire on both sides of the road---which is a four lane highway as someone else pointed out.
The evacuation was so massive that service stations did not have enough petrol down the road. People had to leave their vehicles on the side of the road because they ran out of fuel.
When the fires flared up--btw they were lightning caused--there were only 350 firefighting personnel available (several sources said this). The Canadian military was called up and the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre is in the process of bringing in more resources from other Provinces.
About the only inaccuracy I can find is my statement that Ft McMurray has never seen drought conditions like this---but it is the worst they have experienced in that area in 350 years.
I said Ft McMurray is on the southern edge of the Boreal Forest. The Boreal Forest generally begins at the 50th parallel based on the information that I have. Ft McMurray is at the 56th parallel. Edmonton is at 53--again, my mistake. The forest is known for being swampy and moist, and it gets most of its rain in the summer months with July being the wettest.
I looked at three climate charts put out by the Canadian government. All three confirm the average rainfall is 18.3. The only source I found that said it was 16 (actually 16.43) inches came from wikipedia
Now to some of the other statements
It is the base for the Canadian Tar Sands Development. The population growth in the past 60 years is astounding--all of it driven by the Tar Sands Development
The Tar Sands Development has the potential to adding to more green house gasses--my initial wording was poor. This has created a mixed reception in the United States with some Americans being very concerned about that potential increase while other Americans are still in denial that it will cause any further increase in global warming
I said there were three things one can do in response to the disaster. They all are accurate
1) Donate money, not used clothing or even bottled water--material donations actually clog the relief system. It is best to relief agencies in the area to purchase what is needed in the local market if possible or bring in needed supplies from their own resources.
2) Vote Green. Washington does have a Carbon Tax Initiative that is very similar to the Carbon Tax law of British Columbia--okay I did say Carbon Exchange system
3) Fully implement the Paris Accords as quickly has possible.
Lily feel free to show me where I was wrong, and I will gladly correct myself if need be.
This thread does not need to go Hell.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I looked at three climate charts put out by the Canadian government. All three confirm the average rainfall is 18.3. The only source I found that said it was 16 (actually 16.43) inches came from wikipedia.
Dude. This is your second post in which you act like a difference of two inches per year is significant. You know what the practical difference is? Nothing. Let it go.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Thinking long term is there any mileage in maintaing fire breaks around the cities, and/or a canal ?
Yes. But this fire jumped a 4 lane highway. If the lanes were all scrunched together, it would be equivalent to about 7 lanes. But a treeless break like that or a made fire break are not useful when it is windy. Bits of burning things get picked up and thrown 500 metres or farther, starting a new tinder point.
Reminds me of that horrific firestorm they had in Australia a few years ago, they had some term for the fire jumping across gaps into treetops because of both the wind and the intensity of the heat. 'Crown fire' or similar I think.
The civil authorities have done a fantastic job to avoid fatalities so far, given the scale of the event.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
My point about the rainfall amount goes to this point
A previous poster said Ft McMurray got only 16 inches which made it a dry place like Kamloops (I have been there).
I responed Ft McMurray actually got 18.3 inches which is a little less than what we get here on the Palouse.
I then pointed out Ft McMurray gets most of its rain in July.
The responder then said he got 16 inches from a source (which he did not name).
I double checked my source and then tried to find where the responder may have gotten the 16 inch figure, which I found only in wikipedia.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
"Crown fire" is also used here. The trees "crown" when the flames quickly flame to the top like flaring giant candles. It's a fast thing. The trees stand tall and close together.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
Gramps49, are you expecting this thread to wind up in Hell? Your statements are so full of falsehoods and lack knowledge of the situation that I had to give up trying to respond. I realize that you are trying but seriously, you are only hurting the situation by bringing such a wildly inaccurate bunch of statements together in one OP.
I am disgusted by it and angry that you would think it is okay. I guess this is how people feel when disasters arrive in other places. I'll try to be more compassionate when second guessing and backseat driving.
er, wa's up dood?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Of course evacuation was chaotic and people left with only the clothes they were wearing. If your house catches fire, or if the community catches fire, you grab the kids and run. Some have to leave pets behind if the cat decides to hide, there's no time, not 2 minutes! (Amazing stories of usually uncooperative pets jumping into the car on command.)
As to what should authorities do to help evacuate, there are no fleets of parked busses waiting. (Hurricanes give a week's warning to arrange for orderly evacuation, fires give no warning.)
In a community fire (or other immediate evacuation crisis), an automated phone call goes to every land line in the affected area notifying the resident to evacuate and giving a time estimate which can range from "now" to "ten minutes." Landlines are tied to location. The affected locations are called. Of course some people don't hear the phone, some ignore the call, and the system might glitch occasionally. You are supposed to use common sense too - if the horizon is billows of smoke or the sky red with fire, don't wait around for a phone call.
Cell phones are not tied to location so the automated system doesn't know to call your cell because it doesn't know if you are in the affected location. Authorities would like you to register your cell with them so you get any emergency calls, but most people don't.
In USA and I would think Canada we are periodically told in public service announcements to always keep the car's gas tank half full in case of emergency. I.e. be prepared to get yourself out of danger. If you are incapacitated - an elderly with a walker - your doc is supposed to put you on a list of people incapable of self evacuating, and that's who the rescuers go help.
What more can cities do than call all phone numbers in their system, rescue the people who have been registered as totally dependent, and try to educate the public with periodic ads reminding you to keep 4 days' food and water on hand (I bet Alberta has city-stopping blizzards), keep half a tank of gas in your car, and make family plans on how to reconnect if an emergency separates you?
What else is realistic to expect? Disaster experts are open to any workable ideas for improving response to unpredictable community shattering events, within the limits of available manpower, machinery, and money.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Hasn't Eastern Washington had wildfire trouble in the past?
If by "in the past" you mean "last summer" then yes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I've been thru a couple of mass evacuations like this. To belle's description I would add usually fire trucks will drive thru area w sirens on to announce the evacuation. But there are always people who stay behind to water their roof/ defend their property with a garden hose. Sometimes it works, sometimes it costs you your life. Mass evacuations are always chaotic. A traffic jam is inevitable especially on narrow mountain roads. Sometimes the jam puts you in harms way. It's scary
[ 08. May 2016, 16:53: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah. Northern California was a pretty big mess last summer, too. As Belle said, the footage from Canada produces empathetic pain.
Wildfires are a part of life among the trees, but the last few years of dryness have made them bigger, hotter, and more long- lasting. Further complicating the issue is that the ecosystem has evolved in such a way that fires are actually necessary for new growth (as has been said.) With grass fires, controllled burning and breaks help-- some-- but how the hell do you do a controlled burn of a forest? Forest fires are merciless.
I wonder how native people handled it. The answer that springs to mind is " consider inanimate items expendable and be prepared to ditch them at a moment's notice."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Yes. But this fire jumped a 4 lane highway.
I also saw a news report that it had jumped a kilometer-wide river. I wonder if that's true.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Yes. But this fire jumped a 4 lane highway.
I also saw a news report that it had jumped a kilometer-wide river. I wonder if that's true.
I've seen a fireball jump an 8 lane, about 100 feet, so double that would be unsurprising in a fire like Alberta. A kilometer jump sounds too far to me, but forest fires are such a different animal than house fires, the towering flames create their own windstorms, so I know nothing.
Domestic firemen who drove their trucks to my state to help the forest fire I was near were turned away because training to fight building fires is so wrong for a forest fire their presence would hinder instead of help.
Forest dwelling Native Americans probably were nomadic, followed the game, packed up and left immediately when fire started instead of sticking around watering the ground and hoping it won't spread to my house. Different kind of civilization, different response.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well, yeah. I guess I was specifically wondering if people had some sort of distant early warning system we didn't bother to learn. I
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The First Nation peoples in the area are Cree, Dene and Metis. The lifestyle included lighting fires. Large conifers are food and animal deserts. Nothing to eat there. A burnt over area fills up with animals. Next year the burnt over areas will be filled with bluberries and saskatoon berries, fireweed, others. In a couple of years lots of elk and deer, bear, porcupines etc.
(The term Native American isn't used in Canada. First Nations or indigenous people is preferred. )
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
A crown fire with the wind behind it can jump from one hill to the next, over half a mile / 1k away. There is a huge mass of superheated air and flaming debris blown ahead of it.
With a ground fire the fire travels along the ground plants and debris. When the fire under a tree gets hot enough it will catch, but otherwise it might just scotch the trunk and lower branches. A fire line or road will stop it unless flaming debris gets blown across it.
In a crown fire the superheated air blown ahead of the fire causes whole trees to burst into flame, even without any fire on the ground. You have to knock it out of the trees and down onto the ground before a fire line is going to do any good. Unless it's the size of Kansas.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The First Nation peoples in the area are Cree, Dene and Metis. The lifestyle included lighting fires. Large conifers are food and animal deserts. Nothing to eat there. A burnt over area fills up with animals. Next year the burnt over areas will be filled with bluberries and saskatoon berries, fireweed, others. In a couple of years lots of elk and deer, bear, porcupines etc.
(The term Native American isn't used in Canada. First Nations or indigenous people is preferred. )
(Well,"native people" was somewhere in the ballpark, at least.)
Years ago, there was a huge fire in Yosemite National Park, and the next spring was indeed the most abundant you've ever seen. That's what I meant about the ecosystem evolving towards wildfires.(or whatever it was I said.) It seems like the best method of dealing with fire is to first accept that they will happen, despite technological changes in fire fighting.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
I'll note that California was lacking some of the foreign plants (notably some of the grasses and in my area the eucalyptus) that we now have and which likely changed the fire patterns.
A cursory search indicates the local Ohlone peoples (south and west parts of San Francisco bay) also used controlled burns.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I was under the impression that the Ohlone taught the Spanish the controlled burn process. And yeah, people learned the hard way that introducing eucalyptus was a bad idea.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(The term Native American isn't used in Canada. First Nations or indigenous people is preferred. )
My friends and acquaintances in the US use their tribal affiliation(s) first with Indian, American Indian and indigenous mixed in next with the occasional First Nations. Native American last. White people use Native American way more than indigenous do.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(The term Native American isn't used in Canada. First Nations or indigenous people is preferred. )
My friends and acquaintances in the US use their tribal affiliation(s) first with Indian, American Indian and indigenous mixed in next with the occasional First Nations. Native American last. White people use Native American way more than indigenous do.
There are at least these groups in Canada:
1. Status Indians (their first nation signed a treaty nation to nation with Great Britain). People will say they are "Treaty" as a shorthand.
2. Non-status Indians, "non-treaty". Their people have not signed a treaty. Some of the court cases about this have been decades long and unresolved.
3. Métis, who just had status confirmed by the Supreme Court this year. What this means has to be thrashed out. Métis are people who have First Nations plus (usually) French and/or Scottish in their backgrounds. Formed as a group over the time of European settlement, starting about 400 years ago. Perhaps akin to the Norman conquest and the hybridization of the French with the people living in England 1000 years ago, except that the Métis are not dominant, having been defeated in two small wars (1869 and 1885).
4. Inuit - peoples of the arctic
There is a move away from saying people are from a tribe here. Because, I think, it tends to diminish the perception that the treaties to be made and in the past were not nation to nation. And it may suggest that ethnicity is the issue.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Norman contribution to British DNA is about 0.1% as I recall.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Regards the wild fires in Eastern Washington--actually most of the fires have been in North Central Washington. Yes, there have been. Generally, though, the rain fall in those areas are less than the Palouse (not sure how much--it varies) The fires in our area have come earlier and have lasted longer in more recent years. Much of this has been due to Climate Change added to the fact that 100 years of fire suppression has provided a lite of fuel.
We also have had increased fires in Northern Idaho and Montana for much the same reasons as the fires in Alberta too.
However, it does seem the people in the United States throw more resources into fighting fires than Canada does. Last year, for instance, I went through Kamloops the day after a thunderstorm went through, I could see several smokes raising around the hillsides from lightning strikes, but I did not see any firefighting response from the highway.
Contrast to when I lived in the foothills of the Sierras in California. Almost immediately after a thunderstorm would go through the area one would see tankers dropping water on any smokes and crews in staging areas preparing to move out on any hot spots.
I wonder if the differences could be because of a difference in fire suppression philosophy; differences in resources available; and/or a difference in population density. If the fires had been closer to Edmonton, for instance, would the government had been more aggressive in responding to them.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Washington state is a little state with a large population and much smaller forested area. California I dealt with above. Smaller by 1/3, nearly 10 times the population of Alberta. Or is the point you're trying to make that the USA better at fires? Which is silly.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Actually,as I recall, our fantastic resources in California amounted to just slightly more than diddly- shit, anyway. One a fire has a firm hold, all you can do is keep chucking buckets and praying. Which is a frightening position to be in.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Good point. Water bombing makes as much difference.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Water bombing the main fire, indeed doing anything to the area where a fire has really caught, is useless. The effect of water bombing elsewhere will be highly variable according to what I've read.
Water bombing delivers a substantial amount of water per square metre, but to a very small area. The effectiveness of water bombing basically comes down to how well you pick the area to bomb, and how well you do in targetting it. And, also how frequently you come back to bomb again. You need to effectively hit an extended line, otherwise the fire just works around the area water bombed.
If the fire is spread on the ground then water bombing the leading edge of the fire will suppress the fire there, but it won't stop it. What it will do is reduce the amount of fuel available once the fire front has evaporated the water - some of the fuel would have already burnt. That means less heat, and slower progression to the next bit of the forest. Fire spreading across the canopy can jump so far that you'll never be able to water bomb a large enough area of forest to stop it - though you might be able to stop it if you water bomb the edges of an existing firebreak.
Fires progress uphill very fast, but go downhill slowly. So, water bombing the top part of a downslope in front of a fire will also create a barrier to slow the fire, you add to the difficulties the fire faces to move down a slope. If the fire is slowed enough it burns up it's fuel, and cools down reducing the rate of advance.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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