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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bloody calvinists
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
why are you so sure of yourselves? With your off pat, nicely packaged, systematic answers.
Most weeks we host the bible study (written centrally by the pastor) the type where you have to get the right answer. It seems that everyone except Mrs stoker and I are able to reel off the answers (which are a rehash of the sermon). Last night it was about Pharohs hard heart and of course they're all so sure of what it means, culminating in one of the 20 somethings confidently summing up by reminding us that God creates some poor folk to be destined to hell for his own glory and that it's really good. I guess those are the ones he doesn't love or something......
CAN I GET AN AMEN!
Do they even think about what they're saying or are they so intent on explaining 'the system' it has become abstract to them?
If it wasn't in my own home I would have left.
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
AMEN!
Preach it brother!
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
A friend of mine used to go and hide in the bedroom when that happened.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Do they really say that? I mean, that poor people going to hell are created for the glory of God?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
Oh yes, with bells on!
It glorifys God that he saves some people and not others because....or...something...
In fact, one of the questions was just that "Why is it good that God hardens people?"
Eh?
We are going to a different Church on Sunday....
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
As it pleases best Thysel',
Sends aen to Heaven an' ten to Hell,
For Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done afore Thee!
I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
When thousands Thou hast left in night,
That I am here afore Thy sight,
For gifts an' grace
A burning and a shining light
To a' this place.
You could offer to read this in its entirety as your contribution to the study...
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
*sigh* -they could be right of course. In which case my inability to cope with a God like that means I'm one of the reprobate. So I might as well ignore it and try to enjoy my three score and ten, four score if I'm spared, since I've been destined for the Pit since the beginning of time.
It's a bit pointless, innit?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
As it pleases best Thysel',
Sends aen to Heaven an' ten to Hell,
For Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done afore Thee!
I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
When thousands Thou hast left in night,
That I am here afore Thy sight,
For gifts an' grace
A burning and a shining light
To a' this place.
You could offer to read this in its entirety as your contribution to the study...
Arf - 'pish'd' - arf
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair, there are Calvinists around who are rather more nuanced than this ... but the whole thing does depend on particular assumptions and an internal logic that begins to unravel when you start to pick at it ...
I often think that Calvinists are forced into a corner by the inexorable internal logic of their own position ... in a similar way that the RCs have painted themselves into a corner with their doctrine of Papal Infallibility.
Our Eastern Orthodox friends, of course, would see both as symptomatic of a kind of inherent over-defining tendency within Western Christianity as a whole.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
When you greet them at your door prior to next week's bible study, perhaps do it wearing this.
If nothing else, it will be interesting to note reactions. Should separate the sheep from the goats ...
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Do they really say that? I mean, that poor people going to hell are created for the glory of God?
I'll try to burn extra brightly.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I suppose a reasonable explanation might be that God hardens the hearts of those who are already about to reject him. So they have become hard already, and God hardens them a bit more.
But to go beyond this, and argue that God arbitrarily hardens some people's hearts, seems, well, arbitrary.
It would also render any judgment rather odd as well, I suppose, also arbitrary.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Actually, it reminds me of Stockholm syndrome, that is identifying with your kidnapper or torturer. In fact, there is a wider phenomenon often called identification with the aggressor, which includes Stockholm, but also refers to people praising or getting close to their tormentor.
A common example is people marrying someone who despises them or dislikes them, but it happens all over the place, and apparently, also with God!
I forgot to say that Donald Trump also seems to illustrate this - I mean, that he is a bully, and people want to get close to him because of this.
[ 04. February 2016, 15:07: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I'm impressed that they know this stuff. I would put good money on very few / none of my current fellow congregants knowing anything about predestination.
I'm a cradle Calvinist, so lets say I've heard a minimum of 40 sermons a year for the last 35 years, (counhts on fingers, gives up, uses pen and paper) say at least 1400 sermons, and I don't think I've heard a single sermon on predestination. If I have, it's been hedged round with enough waffle for me to miss it.
I would love to hear predestination explained from the pulpit. In fact, I raised the topic in my pre-membership classes when I was 17, and my minister basically told me not to worry my pretty little head about it.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Aren't there lots of stuff that is ignored? How many Christians talk about childbirth being a punishment for women? Well, a few.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
*sigh* -they could be right of course. In which case my inability to cope with a God like that means I'm one of the reprobate. So I might as well ignore it and try to enjoy my three score and ten, four score if I'm spared, since I've been destined for the Pit since the beginning of time.
It's a bit pointless, innit?
Quite. If you can't affect the result, why does it matter how you play the game?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
In fact, one of the questions was just that "Why is it good that God hardens people?"
Oh, that's just too easy.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose a reasonable explanation might be that God hardens the hearts of those who are already about to reject him. So they have become hard already, and God hardens them a bit more.
Honest, naive, if somewhat 3-year-old like question: Why? Why should God harden someone's heart more than it is already? (I'm not a calvinist or I guess I'd know this stuff.)
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Stoker: I mean DAMN! what are you doing, going to this church and inviting these nut jobs into your home? Hell, yes, go to a different church and dis-invite the obnoxious bastards from all your cancelled future study nights. Immediately.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose a reasonable explanation might be that God hardens the hearts of those who are already about to reject him. So they have become hard already, and God hardens them a bit more.
Honest, naive, if somewhat 3-year-old like question: Why? Why should God harden someone's heart more than it is already? (I'm not a calvinist or I guess I'd know this stuff.)
I'm not either, but I quite enjoy the logic of these things. I thought that it was reasonable that if you turned your back on God, then God would punish you by hardening your heart even further. Then again, it's not very redemptive!
I suppose this also ends up as 'some will burn, so that others will yearn', or something. I mean, it's educational for us to see people in hell. (I don't really believe that, I'm just supposing).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose a reasonable explanation might be that God hardens the hearts of those who are already about to reject him. So they have become hard already, and God hardens them a bit more.
Honest, naive, if somewhat 3-year-old like question: Why? Why should God harden someone's heart more than it is already? (I'm not a calvinist or I guess I'd know this stuff.)
I'm not either, but I quite enjoy the logic of these things. I thought that it was reasonable that if you turned your back on God, then God would punish you by hardening your heart even further. Then again, it's not very redemptive!
Continuing to channel the inner three-year-old, I would have thought that a wicked person might well enjoy being wicked and therefore God hardening their heart to enable them to be MORE wicked might actually be viewed as a reward (at least in the short term before the flames and devils get going). And if you're going to get flames and devils anyway, you might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb. (There's got to be some very convoluted theological pun in there somewhere.)
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
An odd thing about this stuff, is that it sounds to me more like karma than Christian grace. I mean, that if you become hardened, then karmically you may well become more hardened, since it all rebounds on you. (There is also the idea of already karma, meaning that the bad person is already punished).
Strangely enough, Freud had a similar idea when he reasoned that criminals are not guilty because they commit crime, but commit crime because they feel guilty (or worthless). Opinion varies on this!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
Romans 1 certainly takes this view, people don't think it's worth living in a Godly way so he gives them over to their ungodly ways..
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, the punishment is the crime. A further complexity (talking about it now in a secular way), is that some people want to be punished, so again, one might surmise that some criminals want to be caught and punished. There is then an interesting sequence of guilt, leading to crime, leading to punishment, which was desired from the beginning. This is not in fact exotic at all, but quite common, (in my view).
Going back to a Christian view, it has one odd result that those who are hardened by God, may actually desire that very thing. As to why God desires it, I suppose to show his sovereignty?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Or of course the whole predestination to damnation stuff could just be pernicious bollocks .
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The strange thing is that it works in a psychological way, but I can't see how it works in a grace-based religion, which emphasizes mercy not sacrifice.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The strange thing is that it works in a psychological way
To justify poor treatment of others? How else?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Do they really say that? I mean, that poor people going to hell are created for the glory of God?
Some people, I think, really enjoy worshipping a god who would do such a thing (as if such a god actually existed). Often well disguised, of course. You know the kind of person.
The sort who'll talk ruefully and regretfully of how important it is to accept the 'full picture' of God, not just the warm fuzzy stuff. Yes, he's a God of love and mercy - but *sigh* (sad eyes to the floor) he's also a judge and demands justice for all those naughty little sins that get up his nose - him being so holy and all. So *coy giggle* (deprecating little smile) you can't have all that lovely free gifty salvation stuff without eternal torture and endless torment in hell, can you? Oh, if only it could be otherwise! But *sympathetic click of the tongue* it can't. So unless you've been 'saved' in precisely the way we think you should be saved you're going to fry for ever. Shame - but there it is. For some reason it really is necessary for God's peace of mind and sense of righteousness that countless millions burn eternally without hope. *batting eyelids with sad shake of the head*
Religion for psychopaths.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Oh dear. Another cradle calvinist here. I remember arguing predestination with my Bible Study leader as a teenager, contending strongly that it wasn't fair, and that God wouldn't be unfair. It's a position I still hold.
We have our loony fringe, I'm afraid. It seems that Stoker's pastor may be hovering around that end of things. But I remind you that calvinist denominations are also among of the most liberal in the world, and if we are all so awful, you might wonder how we managed that. Predestination was never central to Calvin himself, and his theology as a whole has been sorely misrepresented (and misunderstood) by some of his successors. But not only is belief in predestination extremely rare in my denomination now, but it is actively rejected by most of us. Even among the conservatives it is a rare thing in this hard form, as it doesn't fit at all well with mission or evangelism. And like NEQ, I have never heard a sermon about it. In other words, most of us share your outrage at this very bad theology, and we would be happy to give you your AMEN.
With the help of Karl Barth, we really did rethink all this in the first half of the 20th century, and found then that we could be calvinist without being predestination-ist. There is a whole lot more to Calvin than that - a whole lot more grace and kindness and near-univeralism. Please, please, in your grace, grant us a NALT card before condemning us all in one breath.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It has occurred to me, on occasion, that in order for the adherents of these beliefs to feel really comfortable in heaven, then, even if there is no hell, or it is in fact, empty, someone will have to fashion a facsimile that they can look upon and consider God glorified. Until they work it out and get better.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
*sigh* -they could be right of course. In which case my inability to cope with a God like that means I'm one of the reprobate. So I might as well ignore it and try to enjoy my three score and ten, four score if I'm spared, since I've been destined for the Pit since the beginning of time.
It's a bit pointless, innit?
I thought you were what you said on your tin?
Of course the feckless morons aren't RIGHT!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose a reasonable explanation might be that God hardens the hearts of those who are already about to reject him. So they have become hard already, and God hardens them a bit more.
But to go beyond this, and argue that God arbitrarily hardens some people's hearts, seems, well, arbitrary.
It would also render any judgment rather odd as well, I suppose, also arbitrary.
Reasonable?! FUCKING REASONABLE?! By what criteria (PLURAL) of reason?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Or of course the whole predestination to damnation stuff could just be pernicious bollocks .
Am I being Aspy literal here? (It has been said). I hope you're being arch.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
With the help of Karl Barth, we really did rethink all this in the first half of the 20th century, and found then that we could be calvinist without being predestination-ist. There is a whole lot more to Calvin than that - a whole lot more grace and kindness and near-univeralism. Please, please, in your grace, grant us a NALT card before condemning us all in one breath.
Here's another cradle Calvinist. (Although there's a reason the Reformed have rarely used the Calvinist moniker themselves; Calvin may loom very large, but there's more to the Reformed tradition than him.)
Predestination is still talked about in the PC(USA), but only in the positive sense—that faith and salvation are gifts from God to which we respond with gratitude—and with Barthian overtones. It's hardly central, and functions much as it did for Calvin (as I understand it), to free us from worry over whether we've done enough or believed hard enough. Double predestination is explicitly rejected; I know of no one who believes it. Many come to something near universalism as a result of predestination.
Yes, there are the fringe Presbyterian and Reformed groups. But it always strikes me as odd that the most ardent hyper-Calvinists often seem to found outside the denominations traditionally considered Calvinist.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm officially a member of the Dutch Reformed Church (it merged some years ago with a couple of other churches to form the Protestant Church in the Netherlands). This church has Calvinist roots of course, but this doesn't work through much in practice.
My late grandfather was a rather conservative member of this church. Once, I told him about double predestination. His eyes went wide: what kind of nonsense is this?? I said that this was the basis of our church. Whaaat???
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose a reasonable explanation might be that God hardens the hearts of those who are already about to reject him. So they have become hard already, and God hardens them a bit more.
Honest, naive, if somewhat 3-year-old like question: Why? Why should God harden someone's heart more than it is already? (I'm not a calvinist or I guess I'd know this stuff.)
Well, one (Arminian) possibility is that in order for the free will thing to work, God has to give us the capacity to resist Him.
(Not sure if I find this convincing or not.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
With the help of Karl Barth, we really did rethink all this in the first half of the 20th century, and found then that we could be calvinist without being predestination-ist.
Why didn't I know this? (Hugs Cottontail in manner entirely unsuitable for Hell.) Why didn't my minister tell me that in 1981?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Given that this is, you know, hell 'n all, are we permitted to invite footwasher to the party?
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
What should I believe, a straight idea from the Bible, part of an entire framework of solid, bullet proof Calvinistic theology or the politically correct, idealistic hopes of a dreamer?
(from the "is power the essence of sin" thread in Purgatory)
[ 04. February 2016, 22:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If you can find him. Hopefully nothing externally bad has happened to him in Hong Kong, and I don't mean by the authorities, just circumstantial. And if it's internal ... a change for the good. But I fear not. The Mouth swallowed itself. Peace and healing regardless.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Our Eastern Orthodox friends, of course, would see both as symptomatic of a kind of inherent over-defining tendency within Western Christianity as a whole.
We would?
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Do they really say that? I mean, that poor people going to hell are created for the glory of God?
I'll try to burn extra brightly.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But to go beyond this, and argue that God arbitrarily hardens some people's hearts, seems, well, arbitrary.
But as I understand it (which admittedly is not perfectly), it's the very arbitrariness that is a positive good. God is no respecter of persons. He rolls a die, and if you get a 6, you go to heaven. Otherwise it would be justification by works and we can't have that. (bit of a black-or-white fallacy but hey, it's Christianity, right?)
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not either, but I quite enjoy the logic of these things. I thought that it was reasonable that if you turned your back on God, then God would punish you by hardening your heart even further. Then again, it's not very redemptive!
But he is not willing that any should perish. Why wouldn't he instead soften their hearts?
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
(There's got to be some very convoluted theological pun in there somewhere.)
Well, if you're hung, you might as well be hard.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As to why God desires it, I suppose to show his sovereignty?
This is the answer I'm always given. To which my response is: kenosis. God isn't nearly so jealous about his sovereignty as Calvinists are.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Well, one (Arminian) possibility is that in order for the free will thing to work, God has to give us the capacity to resist Him.
(Not sure if I find this convincing or not.)
I find it convincing. I also think God can outwait us. See Lilith by George MacDonald.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Given that this is, you know, hell 'n all, are we permitted to invite footwasher to the party?
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
What should I believe, a straight idea from the Bible, part of an entire framework of solid, bullet proof Calvinistic theology or the politically correct, idealistic hopes of a dreamer?
(from the "is power the essence of sin" thread in Purgatory)
For what it's worth, footwasher, there is another alternative--a single predestination position that is not calvinist but Lutheran. That one does not believe in predestination to hell (well, maybe to the Ship's Hell!) but only to salvation, and it simply thumbs its nose at the people who call this illogical.
As for God's sovereignty, I know a lot of people for whom this is a major favorite theme, but I don't get the impression that God himself is all that concerned about proving it to anybody. Once in a while it comes up in Scripture, but not nearly as often as mercy and love.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Universal predestination.
Introduce them to Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins"; or Maria Boulding's "The Coming Of God"--the last line of which is "We are unconditionally, irrevocably loved".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mousethief: I also think God can outwait us.
I like this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
But Calvin is not a classical predestinarian. In reading his institutes, it feels as if it is the best way he can find to express God's salvific intention as a creature within time when speaking of a God outside of time.
Basically, what Calvin knew was that it spoke wrongly of the nature of God's causality. Our notion of causality is shaped by the fact we can only move forward in time. However as God is not so constrained his understanding is very different. Thus, predestination speaks as of future of what is fact closer to God to the historic present. It is not that God prejudges but for God the moment of creation, salvation and judgement day are one and the same and it is within that we are ourselves.
Now Calvin is very deliberately making his writings persuasive and is using all his lawyer skills to do this. The aim is to get a person to entertain the ideas that he is putting forward. In doing he at times glosses over real difficulties and simplifies. He is also structured and appears highly reasoned. It is almost certain he knew he was doing this. In intention this is good but it has unforeseen consequences.
These are that people mistook the imposed style for the message and have ever since been trying to make Calvin into a great systematic theologian, or surpass him in the systematic approach. They do not see the wily politician and the hard working pastor at work as well (he almost certainly worked himself into an early grave through trying to meet the pastoral needs of Geneva and the wider world). Calvin is all these things. Calvin is neither a modern systematic theologian nor a medieval scholastic theologian but is on the cusp between the two. As such he is almost certainly most interesting when he is struggling towards insight than in those parts where he is transparent.
A good Calvinist should not end up with a tidy theology, but a sense of the overwhelming awesomeness of God. That is not in a position of judgement and pride, but in one of worship and humility.
Jengie
[ 05. February 2016, 08:36: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ah, one can only be 'elect' if someone else is 'non-elect'.
It rather reminds me of the people who assert that their marriages will be utterly ruined if queers are allowed to be married. If everyone gets it, it won't be special any more.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes it is insecurity that often drives this. People play at being more theologically correct than anyone else so that they cannot be seen as outside the Church. It is, of course, nonsense; but a legacy of the intellectualisation of Belief in the West. Emotionally we need to belong, but we seek to do that by being better at getting the answers to intellectual puzzles. Thus, by being fluent in these skills, we can show other people that we are in more than they are.
Jengie
[ 05. February 2016, 09:35: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm glad Jengie's turned up ... but it's made the thread more Purgatorial rather than Hellish ...
@Mousethief, I'm only going on what Orthodox clergy have said to me.
You may very well have a different 'take'. I wouldn't think of you as any the less Orthodox for that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
but it's made the thread more Purgatorial rather than Hellish ...
In Purgatory, there is an obligation not to be Hellish.
In Hell, there is no obligation to not be Purgatorial.
But throw in a swear word or two if it makes you feel better.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I've never met a calvinist - from what I've read on here I don't want to.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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