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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A mentally healthier congregation
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
I'd value ideas about how churches and similar communities can become more mentally healthy, collectively and for their members and those who come into contact. Here are some of mine.
1. Talk about mental health and illness. Mention it in prayers, in sermons, conversations and church literature.
2. Learn to talk about the experience of mental ill health as we do physical ill health. 'My wrist hurts today.' 'I feel useless today.' 'I am really angry today and I don't know why.' 'I'm very anxious about x.' 'My depression is back.'
3. Show an interest. When someone reveals something about a mental illness, ask about it. What is it like having your condition? Does your treatment help? What are the practical consequences? Learn from them.
4. Have backwaters in worship and other activities. We can be very organised, but sometimes people need the chance to sit. It's not difficult to include silence and restful moments in most activities; bits of worship that belong to the worshippers.
5. Learn about mental illness. What is meant by schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder? What is Autistic Spectrum Disorder, and is it a mental illness? If you want to go deeper, is there such a thing as mental illness?
6. Acknowledge that not everyone is happy all day long, and that fear, sadness and anger should be expressed.
7. Give people the opportunity to ask for help. There seems to be less stigma and shame around mental illness now, and more people who will explain what they find difficult and what would help - so long as they expect to get a useful response.
8. Be gentle. Human society has always been crushing to its weaker members at times, and I miss the middle-class politeness of church in the past, often derided as 'niceness'. I think we could do with more awareness of each other's feelings and of the power of aggressive language.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I think there's a lot that congregations can do to become more relationally healthy-- focusing on good communication, how to handle conflict in a healthy way, etc. But you seem to be talking more specifically about mental health per se.
I don't think there's anything a church can do to prevent mental illness-- and much harm they can do by pretending they can. It's simply not the purpose of the church-- just as the purpose of the church is not to improve cardiac health or lower your cholesterol.
The best thing the church can do is to be affirming of congregants getting whatever help they do need-- eliminate any suggestion that mental illness is something shameful that shouldn't be spoken of, or a sign of lack of faith. Provide good, biblical teaching about the nature of suffering, including mental illness, that makes clear it's not a punishment for something wrong that's been done, but just something that is part of the fragility of life.
Beyond that, maintain a good list of well-regarded mental health professionals for referrals, and provide prayer and support to those in your congregation who are struggling with mental health or caring for those who are.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I remember a number of years ago Emory University in Georgia did a comparison study on the effectiveness of a mental health professional's practice to the effectiveness of a pastor in his congregation. They concluded the congregational ministry was more effective.
I have been a member of both a healthy congregation and an unhealthy congregation. The unhealthy congregation was very angry largely because they were made up of failed manufacturing retirees. They did not get to the upper levels of their careers before they retired and they likely took out their frustration on me, their pastor. I was the IP in systems theory, but I would have thought someone who was more skilled in systems theory would have also had a bad time trying to get them to look at their underlying anger.
On the other hand the congregation I am now in as a layperson is much different. It is made up of people who are at the pinnacles of their careers. Tenured faculty members of a major University. A couple of deans of several department as well. However their are several middle management staff members and technical assistants. What I have appreciated with this congregation is their deep respect of each other for their skills. They truly care for each other when people become ill or are having mental problems. When there are differences of opinion I find the members of the congregation will actually take a go slow approach to disagreements. They really want to reach consensus. If it cannot happen they still show respect with each other.
We have had a systems trained pastor deal with the congregation after a previous pastor resigned because of a sexual scandal. I really appreciated how he has kept us focused on mission.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Autistic Spectrum Disorder, ... is it a mental illness?
The simple answer to that one is "no".
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Agreed, Midge. Neither is it a disorder, but rather a difference.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), widely regarded as authoritative in such matters, includes diagnostic criteria for ASD.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), widely regarded as authoritative in such matters, includes diagnostic criteria for ASD.
That may be the case but earlier versions of the same book also included criteria for diagnosing the disorder of Homosexuality and we all know how that ended up. Furthermore I have significant issues with the ever expanding list of diagnoses within the DSM which conveniently give license to drug companies wishing to medicate the human condition.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
earlier versions of the same book also included criteria for diagnosing the disorder of Homosexuality and we all know how that ended up.
I'm not sure we do.
Without straying into DH territory, the fact that later editions have dropped this diagnosis is widely held up as evidence that homosexuality is not a disorder - my non-DH point being that the current edition of the DSM is indeed viewed as authoritative.
Like it or not, in Western societies the DSM translates into policies, funding, specialisations, organisations, and prevailing worldviews.
The OP asks about how churches engage with the issue of mental illness.
In my experience this involves engaging with the institutions in a country and as a minimum, acknowledging what they recongise as mental disorders - even if we'd like to use other terms or seek alternative and/or complementary explanations.
If you don't agree, consider your view of churches who rigidly adhere to a belief in demonic possession to the exclusion of any diagnosis of mental illness, and how that often ends up.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Furthermore I have significant issues with the ever expanding list of diagnoses within the DSM which conveniently give license to drug companies wishing to medicate the human condition.
As someone who has a mental disorder that didn't officially exist when I was born, I would like to affirm my gratitude towards the drug companies who wished to medicate my condition. It's amazing how much better I feel now that my brain chemistry isn't as messed up.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I suspect that autism is shoved in there because nobody really knows where to put it, but the person you really need to make a diagnosis of autism isn't a psychiatrist. It's a specialist in autism.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Furthermore I have significant issues with the ever expanding list of diagnoses within the DSM which conveniently give license to drug companies wishing to medicate the human condition.
As someone who has a mental disorder that didn't officially exist when I was born, I would like to affirm my gratitude towards the drug companies who wished to medicate my condition. It's amazing how much better I feel now that my brain chemistry isn't as messed up.
Point taken and neck now wound in. I'm not trying to dismiss legitimate distress or suffering. I in no way believe that people with, for example, a chemical imbalance that can lead to things like Bipolar Affective disorder, psychosis and depression should be encouraged to stop taking medication to correct this.
I have just observed that within an overly medicalised model of mental illness there is a tendency to throw pills at situations such as grief at the loss of a loved one or other significant life stressors that would more greatly benefit from time, kindness and material support. Drug companies make money from selling drugs, they will naturally seek to to sell drugs to treat as many conditions as possible because it is in their own self interest to make money.
Mental illness isn't something that can or should be entirely medicalised nor should it entirely de-medicalised. It sits on a boundary of disciplines that can be difficult to balance and negotiate. I think psychiatry in the past has got this balance wrong.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Hatless, thanks. Going to be watching to see how this thread turns out.
My pennysworth is that 2) and 3) made me reflect on how i handle these discussions.
So agree with your suggestion to consider gentleness.
I'd add Ordinary Friendliness in there as well. There's nothing quite like having another place to drop into, people to have a brew with/ wash the dishes alongside/ help fold the ironing/ pull the weeds ( or watch others do it!) or just sit and chat for half an hour before returning to our own home. It doesn't have to be For A Meal either. Or needing to be Ideal Home Exhibition level before anyone can come round.
"Fancy a brew?" is easy to say and who knows, could be just what someone is hoping we'd say....
[ 03. August 2016, 11:19: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Ordinary friendliness works, but is not alwayeasy to instigate.
I run coffee mornings for guide dogs at my house. They are fundraisers, that's their purpose. I put leaflets around the local area when one is coming up.
They have turned out to be great social, neighbourly occasions. Many old folk who are almost housebound turn up and we are getting to know each other like never before. They come, with heads held high to do the charity a good turn. Meanwhile they are helped too.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I run coffee mornings for guide dogs at my house.
Do guide dogs drink much coffee?
Haha - none at all.
I should have said Guide Dogs
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
We are fortunate to have a. Church Hall which runs various groups acting as a bridge into the community. It's horrified me how many younger people have depression - I have got to know several through them volunteering on different projects. Some have found volunteering to be helpful, as it gives structure to their week and also provides social interaction. There are people who will sit and listen and who they can rant to - this type of thing has to be a ministry for the whole Church to take on board.
In our congregation, we have a few people with depression or other mental health issues, including one person with bipolar. Again, these need people to rant to, and we have a strong leadership team who are prepared to spend time with individuals.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I suspect that autism is shoved in there because nobody really knows where to put it, but the person you really need to make a diagnosis of autism isn't a psychiatrist. It's a specialist in autism.
And some of the best specialists in autism are themselves autistic.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
The trouble with mental health issues is that people will tend to put their oar in when they should STFU. Churches are some of the worst culprits IME, especially when the advice is caged in the terms of "thus saith the LORD" or on the theological assumption of bad things should never happen to Christians. It is appropriate as singing someoneAlways Look On The Bright Side Of Life when they are nailed to a cross.
The reality is "Even though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death" rather than floating along a few centimetres above the earth. Note how well Job's friends did until Chapter 4!
A note to add (for the sake of those who must live with Autism) It is really unhelpful to equate it with mental illness although those who have it are prone to mental ill-health (because life with autism is extremely tough and you tend not to have the social networks to support you). It is also unhelpful to equate it to learning difficulties. They are all separate issues even if concurrent.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
The trouble with mental health issues is that people will tend to put their oar in when they should STFU. Churches are some of the worst culprits IME, especially when the advice is caged in the terms of "thus saith the LORD" or on the theological assumption of bad things should never happen to Christians. It is appropriate as singing someoneAlways Look On The Bright Side Of Life when they are nailed to a cross.
But not as funny.
I remember a deacon in our church saying that he "didn't understand how a Christian could have depression, because if you just pray about it, then it goes away".
I was tempted to ask why he was still suffering from chronic back pain after so many years...
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
It is really unhelpful to equate it with mental illness
I'm confused. You're going to have to spell out why this should be true of autism and not, say, bipolar disorder.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Midge - I compared autism to other neurological differences, such as dyslexia (Specific Learning Difficulties), which also comes under DCM 5. Similarly to those on the autistic spectrum, dyslexics have a different brain wiring and varying levels of disability. Lots of engineers are ASD or dyslexic. The ability to see diagrams in 3D and visualise them moving is a challenge beyond many who find reading and writing easy. I don't think that these two conditions are an unreasonable comparison.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
It is really unhelpful to equate it with mental illness
I'm confused. You're going to have to spell out why this should be true of autism and not, say, bipolar disorder.
As above: Autism is a difference in the brains wiring. The autistic brain functions fine within its own capabilities. It just functions differently from the neuro-typical. An Autie could be said to be "face blind"- unable to read social signals and non verbal communication. It is also prone to sensory overload. On the other hand it can be extremely good or even genius at particular functions.
Someone who is colour blind isn't considered to be mentally ill are they? They simply see the world differently.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
The autistic brain functions fine within its own capabilities. It just functions differently from the neuro-typical.
As far as I can see, both these statements are tautological. The first says "if we take the state of a given brain as normal, that given brain is functioning normally". The second says "autistic brains function differently from non-autistic brains".
I can't see why this could not be reworded to apply to bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.
In my experience, the same applies to this statement: quote:
On the other hand it can be extremely good or even genius at particular functions.
Schizophrenics can be extremely charismatic and compelling, and psychotics incredibly insightful*. Like the colour-blind, they certainly see the world differently and inasmuch as they do, enhance our own view. quote:
An Autie could be said to be "face blind"- unable to read social signals and non verbal communication. It is also prone to sensory overload.
And here's the nub of it, I think. There is a social (dare I say it...) handicap which makes nominal social interaction difficult. More so than, say, colour-blindness.
Of course, "illness" and "disorder" are both loaded terms, and at the end of the day, even "health" has a subjective component, and I take your point about that.
However, while referring to a particular condition as just a "difference" and not a "disorder" might be less stigmatising, in and of itself it does not overcome the challenge posed in the OP, which I understand as being that of how a congregation can welcome and accommodate all those with "differences", and particularly ones which have a signifcant social impact.
==
*I have a theory that some psychotics are a whole lot better than average at reading social signals and non-verbal communication.
[ 04. August 2016, 09:07: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I have a neurological difference, I don't call it a disorder. (ADHD). Mainly, I think, because it's 'me' and I would be someone else entirely without it.
It makes social interaction difficult - mainly for me, but for others too.
This is because, if I don't say it I forget it. So dealing with this takes a lifetime to learn. I either join in the conversation in a quick fire way - many call t 'butting in' or I keep quiet because I can't remember what I was going to say. Or I keep notes, which looks mighty odd. If I'm with other ADDers ( most of my family) it's easy!
[ 04. August 2016, 09:53: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Of course, "illness" and "disorder" are both loaded terms, and at the end of the day, even "health" has a subjective component, and I take your point about that.
However, while referring to a particular condition as just a "difference" and not a "disorder" might be less stigmatising, in and of itself it does not overcome the challenge posed in the OP, which I understand as being that of how a congregation can welcome and accommodate all those with "differences", and particularly ones which have a significant social impact.
[/QB]
Being welcoming, accommodating and, dare I say, loving, requires ditching the stigmatising behaviour. Part of that is not lumping a 'disorder' with something else. This a church this requires the realisation that God has made a person in a certain way.
Once you get to know the autistic community you will find that many object to the idea that autism needs a cure. A cure is not something they would take. Partly this is because of all the snake oil remedies out there. Otherwise their autism is part of who they are. Why should they change? They wouldn't want to change the colour of their skin either. Some of the autistic community even campaign for neurodiversity.
Autism needn't be disabling. There are simple ways to work round it. But perhaps autism should be considered along with disabilities is a better approach than with mental health. Church needs to be accessible to autistic people as pointed out by the rather excellent Church of England Welcoming People with Autism guidance. As the guidance notes, changes that benefit autistic people helps other groups too.
When an autistic person becomes depressed or suffers from anxiety then there is a mental health issue. Fine. Be aware that relieving these may require dealing with autism issues by making changes to the environment, developing coping strategies or through awareness making changes to the behaviour of others.
As for DSM5, I'm far from being a Psychologist. There does seem to be a mix of disabilities, conditions, disorders and mental health issue in it. I thought that it was a diagnostic tool for a whole range of things rather than a classification system.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Being welcoming, accommodating and, dare I say, loving, requires ditching the stigmatising behaviour. Part of that is not lumping a 'disorder' with something else. This a church this requires the realisation that God has made a person in a certain way.
If this means welcoming every individual with their own idiosyncrasies, be they disorders, disabilities, diseases, illnesses, or simply particular expressions of what it means to be human, fine.
If it is special pleading for members of the autistic community to be treated preferentially to, say, schizophrenics, not so much.
quote:
Once you get to know the autistic community you will find that many object to the idea that autism needs a cure. A cure is not something they would take.
But this is also true, say, of schizophrenia. Schizophrenics object that taking medication means they are "not really themselves".
Taking it is a compromise with their self-identity that allows them to function socially.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
There is an enormous difference between not functioning socially and being a danger to fellow human beings.
A difference/disorder which compromises the safety of others needs treatment. Those which simply cause social awkwardness only require treatment if the person with the difference/disorder wishes it.
I take Ritalin from time to time. It gives me focus which I don't have without it. But I dislike the side effects (very dry mouth) so I only take it occasionally when really needed.
Schizophrenics really should not pick and choose when to take medication, they would be a danger to themselves and others - whether or not it causes side effects or not feeling the same person.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There is an enormous difference between not functioning socially and being a danger to fellow human beings.
A difference/disorder which compromises the safety of others needs treatment. Those which simply cause social awkwardness only require treatment if the person with the difference/disorder wishes it.
Sorry, but this is exactly the kind of comment which creates stigma, I’m afraid. Most schizophrenics are not a danger to anyone except themselves.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There is an enormous difference between not functioning socially and being a danger to fellow human beings.
A difference/disorder which compromises the safety of others needs treatment. Those which simply cause social awkwardness only require treatment if the person with the difference/disorder wishes it.
Sorry, but this is exactly the kind of comment which creates stigma, I’m afraid. Most schizophrenics are not a danger to anyone except themselves.
I know, but it doesn't mean they should be able to refuse treatment when it's medically necessary.
You could deem my treatment medically necessary but not taking it doesn't make me a danger to myself or others.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I work with university students with disabilities. Re. the discussion about autism. All I can say is that if you have met one person with autism, you have met one person with autism. The DSM 5 uses the phrase "mental disorders" not "mental illnesses."
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There is an enormous difference between not functioning socially and being a danger to fellow human beings.
A difference/disorder which compromises the safety of others needs treatment. Those which simply cause social awkwardness only require treatment if the person with the difference/disorder wishes it.
Sorry, but this is exactly the kind of comment which creates stigma, I’m afraid. Most schizophrenics are not a danger to anyone except themselves.
I know, but it doesn't mean they should be able to refuse treatment when it's medically necessary.
You could deem my treatment medically necessary but not taking it doesn't make me a danger to myself or others.
I think the problem is that you first said "schizophrenics" shoudn't have the option to refuse treatment, then "(people who are) a danger to others". It rather implies you conflate the two, which might be the objection.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
The trouble with mental health issues is that people will tend to put their oar in when they should STFU. Churches are some of the worst culprits IME, especially when the advice is caged in the terms of "thus saith the LORD" or on the theological assumption of bad things should never happen to Christians. It is appropriate as singing someoneAlways Look On The Bright Side Of Life when they are nailed to a cross.
But not as funny.
I remember a deacon in our church saying that he "didn't understand how a Christian could have depression, because if you just pray about it, then it goes away".
Take them round the back and shoot them. It's the only way.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
But not as funny.
I remember a deacon in our church saying that he "didn't understand how a Christian could have depression, because if you just pray about it, then it goes away".
I was tempted to ask why he was still suffering from chronic back pain after so many years...
I he had said that to me, he would have been suffering pain for a whole lot longer. Probably until I stopped kicking him.
I think the church needs to do two things that would make a big difference:
1. Not assume that Jesus is a quick-fix answer to any problem. This means learning to take time with people suffering chronic issues and work with them, not just expect them to be healed.
2. Stop abusing people, because spiritual abuse is really damaging to peoples mental health.
Sadly, I don't see evidence that many churches have identified that these are issues, never mind seeking to do something about them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Person with schizophrenia is quite often the preferred usage not schizophrenic. The latter has the medical condition defining the person.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Shroedinger's Cat has said exactly the 2 things I would pick out, after years of experience of church and wobbly mental health (both my own, and others').
Don't assume that prayer will be curative. Or indeed result in any answer.
And don't pressure people who are already teetering on the brink of depression / anxiety into further volunteering. This includes allowing massive silences whilst everyone else takes a step back, and that hole in the rota still needs filling....
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
An Autie could be said to be "face blind"- unable to read social signals and non verbal communication.
It would be wiser not to use this term (faceblind) for autism or other communication issues. I am largely faceblind in the proper sense, where I simply do not register or remember faces (let alone being able to use them to identify people!) and I'm the opposite of autistic, if such a thing exists. I'm overly sensitive to social cues and nonverbals.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My husband had severe, life threatening depression for three years. For one of those years he didn't leave the house, or his bed.
Our Church people were wonderful with him. They never insisted in visiting, or speaking to him, always asked after him, supported me (without which support I couldn't have coped as I became breadwinner and had two school age children).
When he began to recover they were gentle and kind, never pushy. They then trusted him with a voluntary job, one which led to him becoming international director of a charity. He had been a headteacher before his breakdown. The job was driving aid to Romania in the days just after the revolution. He loved it, it was the saving of him.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
An Autie could be said to be "face blind"- unable to read social signals and non verbal communication.
It would be wiser not to use this term (faceblind) for autism or other communication issues. I am largely faceblind in the proper sense, where I simply do not register or remember faces (let alone being able to use them to identify people!) and I'm the opposite of autistic, if such a thing exists. I'm overly sensitive to social cues and nonverbals.
Actually I use the term advisedly because I know people who's place on the spectrum was diagnosed exactly because of this. Some of the test for autism require the identification of emotions from pictures of eyes and can be impossible. Faces contain so much information they can overwhelm the autistic system so it shuts down. Hence the avoidance of eye contact. And identifying people, particularly out of a usual context, can be difficult.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I work with university students with disabilities. Re. the discussion about autism. All I can say is that if you have met one person with autism, you have met one person with autism. The DSM 5 uses the phrase "mental disorders" not "mental illnesses."
I am not keen on the term "mental disorder" when applied to autism. As I understand it, autism is a neurological variant, and as Caissa implies, each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
@ Lamb Chopped - face blindness may not be a defining feature of autism, but it can be one of the difficulties faced, though not necessarily by every autistic person. Each one has a specific group of characteristics at levels which are peculiar to the individual.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I am not keen on the term "mental disorder" when applied to autism. As I understand it, autism is a neurological variant, and as Caissa implies, each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
Again, your implication is that this individuality, with its accompanying individual variants, is true only of autistic people and is not true of those suffering from mental disorders.
As la vie en rouge has said, this sounds stigmatising in the extreme.
Of course each autistic person deserves to be treated as an individual, but so does every person suffering from, say, schizophrenia. There is no one size fits all for them, either, or anyone else.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I am not keen on the term "mental disorder" when applied to autism. As I understand it, autism is a neurological variant, and as Caissa implies, each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
Again, your implication is that this individuality, with its accompanying individual variants, is true only of autistic people and is not true of those suffering from mental disorders.
As la vie en rouge has said, this sounds stigmatising in the extreme.
Of course each autistic person deserves to be treated as an individual, but so does every person suffering from, say, schizophrenia. There is no one size fits all for them, either, or anyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I am not keen on the term "mental disorder" when applied to autism. As I understand it, autism is a neurological variant, and as Caissa implies, each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
Again, your implication is that this individuality, with its accompanying individual variants, is true only of autistic people and is not true of those suffering from mental disorders.
As la vie en rouge has said, this sounds stigmatising in the extreme.
Of course each autistic person deserves to be treated as an individual, but so does every person suffering from, say, schizophrenia. There is no one size fits all for them, either, or anyone else.
Autism is partly different because it is a spectrum of a wide range of affects and severity. It does not have a common set of symptoms so it is not possible to treat autistic people as the same. To do so does inflict suffering on the autistic person. Autism is so individual it has its own Act of Parliament in the UK. Legislation at least recognises it as a special case. It is also covered by the equalities act and other legislation as a disability.
From the autistic POV there is nothing wrong with themselves. The social world is the strange place full of half truths and contradictory signals such as it is. If people spoke plainly, saying what they mean and meaning what they said the world would be a lot easier to understand.
Of course everyone needs individual attentions and approach since we are all individuals. If only the church could deliver that. Alas many congregations/ churches are conformist and have a one sized fits all approach to what they do. Most church input for autism, if there is any, stops after Sunday school IME.
The first thing a church needs to do is to listen. Then perhaps it can provide more individual care and most importantly really be the body of Christ to everyone. They might also discover the real barriers that stop people from being part of the church. I hope that the church would not just go through the motions to satisfy legal minimums. WHat Autistic people need more than anything else is genuine fellowship. The church should be good at that shouldn't it?
God help us, the current hell thread on mental health provision has it nailed. There isn't the resources for proper care of many conditions.
The same applies to autism. Adult provision for autism is virtually zero for those who are "high functioning". Adult diagnosis is only just picking up so there are many going through life who don't even realise they are on the spectrum.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Autism is so individual it has its own Act of Parliament in the UK. Legislation at least recognises it as a special case.
In what way "special"?
The Act sets out to improve quote:
the provision of relevant services to such adults by local authorities, NHS bodies and NHS foundation trusts.
In other words, it is seeking to extend services, notably health services, to cover autism and have it more widely recognised as a disability, not to create anything "individual" because autism is "special". The spectrum is wide because the diagnostic tool is relatively recent.
quote:
From the autistic POV there is nothing wrong with themselves.
I have yet to see any acknowledgement that this could be true for the sufferers of other conditions. Which once again, is stigmatising of everyone else by implication. quote:
WHat Autistic people need more than anything else is genuine fellowship. The church should be good at that shouldn't it?
You talk as if autistic people don't form part of the church themselves, and cannot themselves contribute to providing genuine fellowship. Why is that?
[ 05. August 2016, 07:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
That link to the Oxford Diocese booklet is helpful about people with autism being part of the church.
There is a difference between conditions like bi-polar, depression, ADHD, and schizophrenia on the one hand and autism on the other. The first group are to do with the chemistry of the brain, and can be modified chemically, either ameliorated by drugs or worsened as in the relationship between schizophrenia and cannabis. The chemistry is to do with the way messages are passed between nerve cells, across the synapses. They are generally felt by the people who have them as things which benefit from chemical intervention, though at times (as with Boogie's Ritalin) they may decide not to use it. In some cases, the state of choosing not to use it is not a good state to be in, and may be a symptom of the underlying condition.
I was very glad to be offered treatment for depression, as I was clearly in a place where there was obviously something wrong. This had not been acknowledged when I was at college. Not identified as something capable of modification, but something wrong with me, as opposed to something wrong with the way I was functioning. Not at all helpful with that condition.
Autism is not to do with the chemistry, and cannot be modified by intervention. It is as if there are two kinds of houses, one with its electricity connected through ring circuits, and one through radial connections. Each has advantages, each has problems, but both work well when operating within their limits. The autistic brain circuitry is much more prone to overloading than the neurotypical type, which is where autist's difficulties in coping with the rest of the community lie. They cannot be rewired, as a house could be. All that can be done is to modify the input so as not to overload them.
And that is very difficult. As a teacher, I had to try to make my style fit children with Asperger's (three, very different boys, in successive years) when it was more suited to bouncing around in front of children who needed stimulation - which is what the rest of the class was.
Do not rely on facial expression. Do not move while speaking.
Explaining everything clearly and making sure the boys knew what the pattern of the day was, and if there were to be any changes was easier.
[ 05. August 2016, 09:52: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Autism is not to do with the chemistry
Not everyone agrees.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jacobsen:
I am not keen on the term "mental disorder" when applied to autism. As I understand it, autism is a neurological variant, and as Caissa implies, each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
Again, your implication is that this individuality, with its accompanying individual variants, is true only of autistic people and is not true of those suffering from mental disorders.
As la vie en rouge has said, this sounds stigmatising in the extreme.
Of course each autistic person deserves to be treated as an individual, but so does every person suffering from, say, schizophrenia. There is no one size fits all for them, either, or anyone else. [/QUOTE
E a,d LA VenR-I was talking specifically about autism, and not about any other condition. You are rather free, imo, with your accusations of "implications." It would really help if you considered the goodwill inherent in a post, rather than nitpicking aspects which were neither mentioned nor inteneded.
[ 05. August 2016, 10:51: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I was talking specifically about autism
Indeed, that's part of the problem as I see it.
This thread was supposed to be about how congregations deal with mental health in general.
Since you first weighed in on this thread, you've been trying to put autism in a category apart, and not displayed any goodwill to any other category at all.
You are not keen on autism being classified as a "disorder", and in support of your view argue that (presumably unlike these "disorders") autism is a "neurological variant", which in turn, you argue, means that each autistic person is an individual case.
The clear implication is that individuality does not apply, or matter, when it comes to sufferers of these "disorders".
For my part, I have readily acknowledged the need for all autistic people to be considered as individuals, and of course congregations should be sensitive to the wide range of difficulties faced by people at different points on the autistic spectrum.
However, I can't find anywhere here where you acknowledge that the "individuality" you wish to claim for autistic people should apply to any other condition, and that's where I perceive the lack of goodwill to be.
It wouldn't take much for you to clear up that misunderstanding.
[corrected link]
[ 05. August 2016, 11:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I find it interesting that "suffers" and "suffering" have been used in relation to people with diagnoses.
As for autism spectrum disorders, there is still much debate over cause, correlatives and treatment. Our 19 year old was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome ( removed from the DSM 5)when he was 5. I have much lived experience with the autism spectrum including working with university students on the spectrum. I have never had one of them describe themselves as "suffering" from their diagnosis.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I suppose it depends, to some extent, on the severity of any condition whether the person with it would say they are suffering.
I don't suffer with mine (ADHD) but I have, over the years, used many many coping strategies due to my executive functions and memory being so poor.
I know many VI and blind people. A lot of them will tell you they don't suffer at all, except from the lack of understanding shown by service providers and the general public. For example, many taxi drivers refuse them access when they see a guide dog. This is against the law, but still happens all the time. I know a 24 year old woman who was left at the kerb by a taxi driver at 10pm at night, awful.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Conversely I have known people try to kill themselves because they find their ASD unbearable.
One person's experience is not everybody's.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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