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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What comes first, God's call or our desires?
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The C of E's Renewal and Reform programme is looking to increase clergy numbers by 50%, particularly targetting young people and those from under-represented ethnic groups.
It sounds good, but I can't help wondering whether some people might be encouraged into ordination without going through the vigorous discernment process.
Surely if these people were already being called by God into the Church, they would already be ordained? Or does it follow that God will provide what we decide we want?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
My reading of it is that the vigorous process will not be bypassed. But that, by targeting the advertising, people who would not usually see themselves as ideal clergy material might be encouraged to come forward to make an initial enquiry. They can then be taken on, from there, through the usual next steps.
Or perhaps I am being naive? I hope not.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
My reading of it is that the vigorous process will not be bypassed. But that, by targeting the advertising, people who would not usually see themselves as ideal clergy material might be encouraged to come forward to make an initial enquiry. They can then be taken on, from there, through the usual next steps.
Or perhaps I am being naive? I hope not.
It's not a career choice though, where people see themselves in a role, is it?
I can see that some people might try to dismiss a call from God if they thought there was no chance of being accepted.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It's not a career choice though, where people see themselves in a role, is it?
I imagine that entering the ministry has always involved the usual career considerations. The clergy tend to come from particular backgrounds, often have definable personality traits, have preferences in terms of where and how they'll pursue their ministry, are perceived in particular ways by congregations and the public. It would make no sense to suggest that these tangible and even quantifiable issues don't influence the choice of career, or that they're only influenced by other-worldly elements.
That's not to say that a 'calling' is a rare or non-existent thing. But it must surely work as part of a range of other influences, some of which appear to be very mundane.
In any case, I think it's reasonable for the CofE to advertise for individuals to present themselves for inspection, so to speak; the leaders can then decide for themselves if these people have been called (and what they've been called to)....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Who knows? Perhaps God may call a person by them reading about a need from the church for ministers. I doubt most are called by some voice in the night, but that has happened too.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Well, yes, it is a career choice as well as a calling from God.
I believe God has called me to be a community occupational therapist just as much as he has called me to be a lay reader. Possibly more.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suffering deja vu with this.
While I am all for the encouragement of more diversity of clerics and for a widening of understanding of who can be in the ministry can I also issue a please don't try and increase numbers in one big lot.
The reason, go and talk to the URC about its current ministry situation. We are at the point where the bubble caused by similar ideas in the early 1990s are beginning to hit retirement age.
You need to plan for a slow but steady increase over twenty years in which you also aim to match clerical recruitment to growth. I do however think the evidence is clearly there that all churches need to diversify their recruitment into the clerical roles, particularly when they are a clerical focal tradition non-clerical leadership is restricted. The result of drawing from too similar a pool of people is that you limit your vision. You become a denomination for those, who those in the ministry want to serve, not for all the people God calls. This unintentional attempt to limit God's grace God will circumvent to the detriment of the denomination.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I doubt people would go into ordained ministry only as a career choice because of clever advertising. Clerics I've known have had the notion rattling about in their heads for years, and they felt God (possibly) was leading them in that direction. At most the church might give such folks a quiet nudge that yeah, such a vocation is a real option. But considering the stresses of a church career, there is no way that I'd back bypassing the discernment process. People who get serious about becoming clerics really need mentors who can see people's blind spots and incorrect notions, and straighten them out or gently break it to them that the ministry might not be a good fit. Finding out too late that the professional ministry is not for you is about like going through a nasty divorce.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Any weakening of selection suitability investigation processes would be ecclesiastical suicide - a suicide I guess even more rapid than the long slow slide into obscurity that seems to be the present prospect. And I agree that few are likely to be silly enough to seize the prospect of a life of ecclesiastical penury on the basis of a publicity campaign.
But the answer to the question of which comes first seems to me to be a yes. In fact I suspect (not only from my own experience but from readings of theology) that as God is the creator of psyches and psyches' desires that generating desire is precisely the modus operandi of the Spirit ... even when the recipient of the modus operandi does the whole OT prophet "me, shit no, not me" thing.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
This is of topical interest as I've just been to an ordination service. The back of the service sheet has an appeal for anyone wishing to explore a calling to talk to a member of the clergy. I can well believe that, in attending someone else's ordination, one or two people may become much more aware of their own calling, because there is such a definite focus to that particular service.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I have to say that I am increasingly wary of this mystical "call of God". Too often (IME) it has been used to trump legitimate doubts and questions about someone's suitability to ordained ministry.
Although ordained ministry is not just another career option, I think that perhaps the best approach is to start from the premise that it IS. There should be a cool examination of the abilities and attitudes that ordained ministry will demand and every candidate should be judged by these. Only if they "pass" this initial check can they then be examined to see if there is a "call".
I have come across too many train wrecks (of people and churches) where someone's sense of "being called" has overridden normal judgements and resulted in people who were woefully ill-suited to ministry being ordained and then placed in charge of congregations.
As to the question: "What comes first, God's call or our desires?" the answer is that they are realistically one and the same. God doesn't call us to do things we don't want to do and would be uncomfortable doing. The fact that we are drawn towards something (such as ordination) is usually a helpful indication of whether someone is "being called" - although it is not the trump card.
Is someone capable of doing ordained ministry?
Does that person have the right gifts of character and attitude?
Does that person feel drawn (over a period of time) towards this ministry?
If you can answer "yes" to all these questions, then you're possibly being called to ministry.
If you have "had a voice from God" or a "word of prophecy" go away and don't waste my time until you can also answer yes to the three questions.
At its heart a "call to ministry" is not something mystical and super-spiritual. It is a hard, pragmatic choice. Jesus told the parables about counting the cost of discipleship - I think that such parables are especially important when considering ordained ministry.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Most sound OtG.
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Love wins
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
There have been some very valid and thoughtful points made, thank you all.
I can see what you are saying, Oscar the Grouch, but:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
As to the question: "What comes first, God's call or our desires?" the answer is that they are realistically one and the same. God doesn't call us to do things we don't want to do and would be uncomfortable doing. The fact that we are drawn towards something (such as ordination) is usually a helpful indication of whether someone is "being called" - although it is not the trump card.
Is someone capable of doing ordained ministry?
Does that person have the right gifts of character and attitude?
Does that person feel drawn (over a period of time) towards this ministry?
If you can answer "yes" to all these questions, then you're possibly being called to ministry.
If you have "had a voice from God" or a "word of prophecy" go away and don't waste my time until you can also answer yes to the three questions.
At its heart a "call to ministry" is not something mystical and super-spiritual. It is a hard, pragmatic choice. Jesus told the parables about counting the cost of discipleship - I think that such parables are especially important when considering ordained ministry.
Yes, God does call us to do things we don't want to do! God does also call us to do things that we don't believe ourselves capable of doing, but if we accept the call we find that we are, with time and training.
The hard, pragmatic choice is whether or not to accept our calling. The church's job is to discern whether what we think is our calling really is our calling, one aspect of which is to consider whether or not we have the appropriate emotional stability/academic ability/etc to fit into their structure and roles.
A call to ministry must surely be from God. This may or may not come in the form of being 'drawn' to it.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Yes, God does call us to do things we don't want to do! God does also call us to do things that we don't believe ourselves capable of doing, but if we accept the call we find that we are, with time and training.
Up to a point, Lord Copper, I once had to look after an ordinand whose education had stopped at age 16 and who was dyslexic. To say that she struggled with the academic component of training was an understatement. Pastorally, OTOH, she could knock me into a cocked hat. The important thing was that she understood that the academic stuff was significant and gave it her best shot.
I think the thing is firstly that some things will come naturally to you and some will only come after lots of hard work, and you have to put it in. Secondly, you have to accept that if you think that God is calling you he is calling you to do the stuff you dislike, or at least, take responsibility for it. If you are a cerebral clergy person who nonetheless takes trouble with pastoral care, or who organises a team of admirable lay people to do pastoral care that is one thing. If you think "God called me for my intellectual gifts and not anything else" you may be missing the point. Ditto, the excellent pastor who regales his or her congregation with a chain of banalities every Sunday because "it's a matter of the heart, not the head".
I think that the discernment process is there to find out if one is sufficiently versatile to do a number of jobs and to have the humility to recognise one's own strengths and weaknesses and to recognise that there may be those in one's own flock who can do some things better than you, and to call upon that. If one's attitude is "God gave me x gifts so he must be calling me to y role despite my deficiencies in z" then I think that it will not end well.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How does God do this? How does God make a person desire to get paid for doing rites of passage and running weekly concerts interrupted by a lecture? And the occasional bit of ritual?
[ 26. September 2016, 22:56: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Did God call all those - 136,000 - who pop up if you Google 'Vicar jailed'? But their desires won out?
[ 26. September 2016, 23:05: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How does God do this? How does God make a person desire to get paid for doing rites of passage and running weekly concerts interrupted by a lecture? And the occasional bit of ritual?
Ah, that's a bit cruel! The clergy also do pastoral work, and may have various ecumenical and community involvement. In the mainstream churches they're expected to engage in ongoing theological study.
But I agree that rather too much emphasis is placed on the ordained minister as the paid religious professional who has a calling. I think there's something not entirely healthy about the pedestal on which the ministry is placed, and the heightened expectations of what ministers and the ministry should be like. Not enough attention is paid to what laypeople are called to. This is the inevitable outcome of the clergy-laity divide.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, they visit a few old people who can't get out, that's nice. But it's not defining of the 'call'. The other stuff is. Although almost anybody can do it without pay, they have the grant rights. The power. As the power dies, thankfully so does its collateral abuse.
I've never, that's NEVER, met a 'called' professional cleric who didn't live well. I met one in Northampton who chose to go and live in a rough housing estate, that impressed me, his homophobic theology didn't. He left South Africa because of Tutu. He still wasn't a tent maker.
Now THERE was a calling.
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I've never, that's NEVER, met a 'called' professional cleric who didn't live well.
Yet the complaint has often been that on the salary they get the clergy struggle to live the modest middle class life that people expect of them.
There are successful clergy in large independent churches who probably 'live well', but their number is likely to be fairly small in the UK. In general, I don't think the status of the clergy is about their being able to have a great standard of living.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry SvilanaV2, but all those I have known in the Anglican church live well. The houses of ALL the vicars I have been to are upper middle class.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All the curates and assistant vicars I have known live well.
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Well, I admit I don't understand how salaries for basic parish CofE clergy are worked out, but someone will no doubt clarify that for us.
I imagine that an increasing number of them arrive in the job with savings from previous professional careers. Others may have assistance from well-off relatives. None of that is about them as clergy, but rather indicates the social class they were in before they embarked on the career.
I do know that lots of the large, old CofE rectories and vicarages have been sold off, so a vicar's sense of upper middle class grandeur couldn't necessarily be imparted by inhabiting that sort of environment. But it's true that 'living well' is a relative concept.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
None I know have been anything but vicars with amazing houses that are not on the doorstep of the church. As for bishops!
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
What diocese is this? I could consider moving over the pond. Angloid has me sold on Southwark though. How do the vicars there live?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
A vicar I am related to lives in a (church-owned) terraced manse near his church, typical of the estate...which if sold would raise over a million quid. I guess the church has owned it for 100 years or so.
I think there were quite a few applicants who felt called to the job he ended up taking.
Demographic and economic change leaves the congregation in an odd place - not many locals want to squeeze through the eye of their local needle.
And our desires? Who knows. I can't imagine a ministry to the rich, but I guess some folks are good at that kind of thing.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Come and vicar in the Welsh Valleys; not only will you have a congregation big enough to count on one hand and an old miner's house for a vicarage (if you're lucky), you may even get a stipend (if you are incredibly lucky).
Funnily enough, there is a bit of a shortage of clergy/ministers/pastors over here.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Time for a revival!
Blessed are the middle class.
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Love wins
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
What are these caricatures I see?
AFAIK the huge rectories have mostly been sold off, the ministers live in relatively modest houses which are never theirs and so they have to find somewhere to rent once they retire, and the stipend is not enough to sustain a family and so many are on tax credits etc.
AFAIK the ministry means 24 hour giving of the self to ever demanding people who assume that what they see on a Sunday morning is all there is to it, forgetting the preparation, the funerals, weddings, baptisms, visits, holding the hands of those who are dying, listening to those who need an ear, and all the time trying to raise enough funds to keep the roof on the church and meeting the administrative demands that come from the diocese.
Is this their calling, the desire of the church hierarchy.... ?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None I know have been anything but vicars with amazing houses that are not on the doorstep of the church. As for bishops!
Growing up in 3 vicarages, one was a bland 70s semi, another a poorly constructed but impressive looking 80s detached house and the third a rather nice hundred year old red brick pile, shrunk somewhat by the partitioning off of the servant's quarters. All were somewhat haphazardly and cheaply maintained. None were easy to heat and leaks from windows were common. My Dad struggled on his curate's stipend and at one point considered leaving ministry because he couldn't afford to provide for his family. Stipends have improved a little since then, so I think a curate today would be just about able to manage. Only the generosity of relatives kept my Dad going. Those priests I know who are comfortably off either don't have children, have a partner who works, or have property they let out that they bought before being ordained or have inherited. Of course some of the priests I know are OLMs or otherwise self-supporting, and one lives in the same type of run down back-to-back as everyone else in the village and survives on the state pension.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None I know have been anything but vicars with amazing houses that are not on the doorstep of the church. As for bishops!
I was going to make a jokey comment about the kind of upmarket area you and your vicars might be living in, but I don't want to get on your nerves! How vicars are housed is obviously a regional thing, though.
The CofE vicarages I've seen tend to be in quite urban areas. 1930s mock Tudor, or typical 1970s designs. Usually detached, a little bigger than the houses nearby, but not particularly grand.
Methodist manses do stand out less from their surroundings. I think they're just family homes that have been bought by the church rather than built specially for the clergy.
Still, with reference to the OP, in some parts of the country today it wouldn't be easy as a youngish, average graduate to be able to buy or maybe rent the kinds of homes that the CofE or even the Methodists provide for their clergy. This must cross the minds of some candidates. (And others are no doubt aware that they could have a much better home and lifestyle if they went into or stuck with law, or dentistry, or whatever.)
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None I know have been anything but vicars with amazing houses that are not on the doorstep of the church. As for bishops!
Growing up in 3 vicarages, one was a bland 70s semi, another a poorly constructed but impressive looking 80s detached house and the third a rather nice hundred year old red brick pile, shrunk somewhat by the partitioning off of the servant's quarters. All were somewhat haphazardly and cheaply maintained. None were easy to heat and leaks from windows were common. My Dad struggled on his curate's stipend and at one point considered leaving ministry because he couldn't afford to provide for his family. Stipends have improved a little since then, so I think a curate today would be just about able to manage. Only the generosity of relatives kept my Dad going. Those priests I know who are comfortably off either don't have children, have a partner who works, or have property they let out that they bought before being ordained or have inherited. Of course some of the priests I know are OLMs or otherwise self-supporting, and one lives in the same type of run down back-to-back as everyone else in the village and survives on the state pension.
Yup, that pretty much sums up the case. Yes my last house was great - stunning - but when I left after two years I was left with nothing. Because kuruman works we were able to borrow and scratch enough to move 70 kilometres into the country and buy a cottage, just beating an exponential rise in the housing market. I will now spend I expect many, many months trying to find what Martin60 might consider real work, having given up 30 years of my life to a career that he seems to see as a cushy pig-in-a-poke sinecure.
That career was a privilege. But the privileged moments were, by and large, not hobnobbing with the chardonnay set and nibbling cucumber sandwiches, but helping couples struggle to bring a marriage together, trying to get help for drug addicts, sitting with people terrified of dying, or shattered because their son's splattered body is in a morgue, and no one else has time the fuck to sit with them.
And "an hour's concert interrupted by a lecture"? I think there's another way to interpret that. How about "facilitating as best one can moments in the life of the struggling faithful, moments that lift their hearts if only a little bit towards the heavens, and try just briefly to tickle and tease some meaning from ancient texts (texts which I have spent an adult lifetime wrestling with professionally, academically, in my own time, hoping to bring meaning to others' lives) so that their journey through the coming week and all its shit is just a little more possible"?
So thanks, Arethosemyfeet; and Martin60 ... you're journeying damnably close to my first ever hell call, in the active or the passive voice, in 10+ years of shipping. In Christian love of course, dude. Because I think there's one or two jaundices floating your boat ...
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
That's an inspiring summary of what moved you in your career, Zappa. It moved me, reading it.
Sucking corporate c**k like the rest of us is going to be hard, after that.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All things are true Zappa. I know you're telling it. SO AM I.
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by mr cheesy:
Funnily enough, there is a bit of a shortage of clergy/ministers/pastors over here.
Appears you have a laity shortage in the Welsh Valley.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
Time for a revival!
Blessed are the middle class.
Amen!
Praise the Lord and pass the Aberlour.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
we were able to borrow and scratch enough to move 70 kilometres into the country and buy a cottage, just beating an exponential rise in the housing market.
A kiwi then?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All things are true Zappa. I know you're telling it. SO AM I.
Nice defuse. No idea why you're shouting or even what you mean, but it's nearly as good as Golden Key's lava lamps. Keep shouting your opinions. It works for Trump.
Sorry for shouting Zappa. And you can tell me owt, like Lamb Chopped. My observations of middle class clergy in multiple English locations are not opinions. They are opinion forming. None of them live in moldy old rectories. None of them live in working class environments, urban or rural. Neither do any of their assistant vicars and curates.
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Love wins
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sorry for shouting Zappa. And you can tell me owt, like Lamb Chopped. My observations of middle class clergy in multiple English locations are not opinions. They are opinion forming. None of them live in moldy old rectories. None of them live in working class environments, urban or rural. Neither do any of their assistant vicars and curates.
If they are to minister to all people, to be inclusive, why is it important where they live? As I understand it, the houses they live in are pensions assets which must be managed carefully if future pensions are to be maintained - pensions which are not excessive.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
To add to the difficulty of comparing housing, the manse (or equivalent term) is not just a house to live in. It is, usually, also an office. It would be a place for church business to take place - meetings, counselling those in need etc. How many times would a minister or vicar (often with the unrenumerated assistance of her spouse) host meals for members of the congregation and wider community? It's often essential for the minister to have a study where they can work on the sermon in peace, or conversely for her spouse to sit in some comfort while the youth group occupy the lounge.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sorry for shouting Zappa. And you can tell me owt, like Lamb Chopped. My observations of middle class clergy in multiple English locations are not opinions. They are opinion forming. None of them live in moldy old rectories. None of them live in working class environments, urban or rural. Neither do any of their assistant vicars and curates.
If they are to minister to all people, to be inclusive, why is it important where they live? As I understand it, the houses they live in are pensions assets which must be managed carefully if future pensions are to be maintained - pensions which are not excessive.
I don't understand. Where's the income on the appreciating asset? It's never realised? Or do you sell shares in the property company? A Ponzi scheme? You can't minister to the poor from a half million pound house in the leafy suburbs.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Thank you Zappa for your moving post.
Just as a general point: most people, when they retire, are able to put their feet up in a completely-paid-for property they own; or can remain in their rented property, possibly with additional Housing Benefit; or they can contemplate "downsizing" at their own pace. (I realise that isn't true for everyone).
For many clergy retirement means an enforced move to a new property (possibly much smaller than they are used to) and away from their established friends. I am not too far off retirement and my wife and I are contemplating buying our first house which, due to inheritances and careful saving, we are fortunately just about able to afford.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You can't minister to the poor from a half million pound house in the leafy suburbs.
And some clergy make the conscious decision not to. (I have actually met this man and he was lovely).
But do you criticise the Doctor, Teacher or Social Worker who lives outside their "patch"? - although I accept that issues of "incarnating oneself" within a community shouldn't be ignored.
[ 29. September 2016, 13:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Chalk and oranges.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In other words there is no comparison (chalk and cheese - that still have 'ch' in common - deliberately hybridized with apples and oranges - that are both in a category). Unless you are saying that clergy are just another set of middle class professionals. Which they very mainly are. I expect Christian leaders to show the way, as you implied. Sacrificially. I've known one conservative evangelical do this, as I said above. I hope the cognitive dissonance worked. But I doubt it.
As usual society will get there way before us. It already is in the Netherlands. Students getting free accommodation for living in geriatric homes and serving their hosts.
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Most people, when they retire, are able to put their feet up in a completely-paid-for property they own; or can remain in their rented property, possibly with additional Housing Benefit; or they can contemplate "downsizing" at their own pace. (I realise that isn't true for everyone).
For many clergy retirement means an enforced move to a new property (possibly much smaller than they are used to) and away from their established friends.
In the British Methodist Church ministers are moved around quite a lot anyway, so this in itself wouldn't be an unpleasantly new experience. In fact, having friends around the country is surely an advantage for them, because they can go and retire among folk that they'd ministered to ten years earlier, for example.
However, the housing issue must be getting more and more difficult. A while ago I read that clergy in the CofE used to be discouraged from keeping hold of houses which they owned before entering the ministry. As a result, they ended up lacking a major appreciating asset that British people like to have.
I don't know if the CofE still has the same attitude, nor what ministerial candidates in other mainstream denominations are advised to do. But with house prices rising rapidly individuals are very limited in where they can go if they haven't made adequate provision for themselves.
Still, the clergy aren't alone if they find themselves in that situation.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't understand. Where's the income on the appreciating asset? It's never realised? Or do you sell shares in the property company? A Ponzi scheme? You can't minister to the poor from a half million pound house in the leafy suburbs.
Owning assets equivalent in value to the future commitment, even though it would mean selling everything if there were no continuing income, is surely prudent if not actually required by law. I am no expert, but it's the way I understand it.
I see no reason at all why someone cannot minister to the poor as well as to the rich and everyone else in between unless he or she lives in a run-down terrace.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah, blessed are the middle class. With what? For what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
((Dear God, i only hope our local Vicars are not reading this thread.....))
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