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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lo, I am sore distressed...
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
Hi, all.
This is a massive post - apologies in advance. Might be triggery for some.
So, lately Donald Trump has inadvertently helped bring general male creepiness and wandering-hand syndrome into the public eye like never before. Maybe about the one positive thing he has done? Of course, there is the Twitterstorm begun by Kelly Oxford - which I read about, rather than read. What I did read was this: http://www.cracked.com/blog/women-you-will-be-groped-this-what-you-need-to-know/
I read it all, and then I started reading the below the line comments - people sharing their stories. I read them for two hours straight, then I had to fix some lunch for my family. Then I went back and read them again for another hour and a half or so, before I had to go out to a pre-arranged thing. I reckon I had probably read several hundred by this point, and there were clearly many, many, more.
To say that I was both a little distressed and really quite depressed by it all is a slight understatement. But the thing that really, really, got me - really got me, was the sheer volume of these stories that began with: When I was ten; When I was eleven; When I was twelve; When I was fourteen - honestly, it seemed almost a rarity for someone to begin with: When I was eighteen, or something like that. How sad. How sick. How dreadful - I thought.
It wasn't until the next day that I remembered that if I were to tell my own story, it would start with: 'When I was eleven'. I was one of the lucky ones, though. When I told somebody, I was believed, and it was dealt with. Later instances of telling someone, largely around workplace-centred incidents, didn't work out quite so well at first, but I was a lot older and a good bit angrier by then, and I stood my ground, and made sure I communicated everything in writing, and copied in strategic people, and eventually uttered the magic words 'union' and 'welfare officer', and it got dealt with.
This is all some time in the past now, and barely registers in my consciousness from one year to the next, but I've been musing on it, and I think the reasons for my being able to put these things down is that they have, unquestionably, been dealt with. And that is because, in all cases, there was, unquestionably, something going on that needed dealing with. But then - and then, how do you deal with something of a whole different level, something that feels like it might have been something - something that could, however, be explained away. Something I never reacted to with horror, or anger - or anything - because I was too straight-up bemused to have any other emotion. This is the littlest, the tiniest, the least, of the things that have happened to me, and it bothers me the most, because I have no idea how to respond to it. Did I just imagine it all?
This was about four years ago. I was at a house - during the day - there were a bunch of other people there, all people I knew well. I was in the kitchen, emptying the dishwasher. I had the door open and the bottom rack out on it, and I was bent over taking out plates. The dishwasher door, being open, was obscuring much of the passageway through the kitchen, and I was obscuring the rest of it with my person. Someone came up behind me and placed their hands on either side of my ass, and gently manoeuvered me to the side, so they could pass on by. As it was happening, I did not react in any way at all - because I thought it was my husband coming by. I saw the shoes as they left the kitchen, and they were not my husband's shoes, and I thought - What the hell? Did you just touch my ass? Did - what??? And even though I KNOW what my husband's shoes look like, I peeked out into the next room to see where he was, and sure enough, he was sitting down, in the middle of being shown a slideshow of someone's holiday photos. I went back to the dishwasher and unstacked the rest of it - and here's the thing - already I was - simultaneously - doubting my own senses, and thinking up excuses for what might have happened. I was in the way. No doubt about that. Should probably have tapped me on the shoulder instead, or, I don't know, said excuse me, but hey, it's not necessarily creepy. It might just be a bad judgement call. Or maybe I imagined it. Then, later, when we (my family) were going to leave, it was all hugs all round, and I have no problem with this, I am fine with hugs provided its not strangers. So anyway, I got a hug from the owner of the shoes - felt completely unthreatened going in, plenty of other people standing right there. Only a one-armed hug, no lower body contact. Would have looked entirely normal to an observer. It wasn't (I don't think). I had an iron forearm across my back, mashing my boobs into his chest. But only for maybe a second. I suppose it's not necessarily creepy, though. It might just be a bad judgement call. Or maybe I imagined it. (You get it, right? Around and around and around. For three whole fucking days after this I barely had any other thoughts.)
However, that was four years ago, and I have seen that guy scores and scores of times since then, with not a whisper nor a chink of anything remotely untoward. I have had hugs from him since, absolutely and entirely what you would expect and nothing more. I have not said anything to anyone about this, partly because it was so minor, and partly because it was so fleeting, and partly because it has resolved itself. And mostly, because who the fuck would I tell? That was a family Christmas party, and Mr Shoes is my brother-in-law. Awesome, huh?
When trying to parse the whole situation, it seems to me there are three possibilities: One - (reasonably likely) The problem is mostly in my head. I am making a mountain out of a molehill, and being a bit neurotic. Seeing harm where there is none, and ascribing untoward intent to someone's actions. If I say anything, it is basically slanderous. Though let's be clear - I didn't fucking imagine it. Two - (also reasonably likely, given subsequent events) I did not misjudge the intent, but it really was a one-off, and he potentially felt like quite a dick when reflecting on things afterwards. In which case, if I say anything, it really serves no-one, moves nothing forward. Three - (hopefully unlikely) He is actually someone who gets his jollies from copping an illicit, uninvited feel. In which case - and given all these 'When I was ten' stories - holy shit - I have daughters, I have nieces. And they all love him to bits, and spend as much time as possible roughhousing with him in a great mob. And he is immensely good-natured about it. And some of them are ten already. And it all makes me very uncomfortable. And I would very much like to tell my own daughters that they need to stop with all that, but they will ask why they should stop, and not the others, and if I don't want to potentially slander someone, I'm going to have to fall back on the 'It's time you started behaving like a young lady' shite I was fed by my own mother, putting it all on them and making them the guardians of everyone's morality - while they're still basically children - all the while I am aware that this might. all. be. nothing. and if I say anything, I am actually the one who destroys the childhood innocence of just having a bunch of physical fun without there being anything remotely sexual attached to it. God knows I don't want to take anyone out of that blessed space. I'd like to be able to go back there myself.
Honestly, I can't think of any way at all to approach any of this, with anyone in the family, without creating a shitstorm the size of Texas. Also, I don't know if there's any need to. For myself, I would rather say nothing. And I'm not being Michael Gove here 'For myself, I would much rather not be Prime Minister, but for the country...' - I actually mean it. But I don't know how I would live with myself if I find out later that my lack of action had contributed to someone who was ten or so, being touched up without their consent.
What would you do?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Find a therapist to discuss it with?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
My one question would be, why did you not confront him when it happened? This is what you did, this is how I feel about that. No family shit storm, he could apologize, claim innocence or what ever, but he would be aware that you were made uncomfortable by his actions. In which case if guilty he would be less like to try it again. I do not believe that silence is never golden in these kinds of cases.
corrected for type o
[ 18. October 2016, 22:32: Message edited by: Graven Image ]
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Are there any other female members of your family you could sound out discreetly and find out if they have also had this problem? The ones that are quiet enough that they might have kept quiet too.
(We found out by comparing notes one day that my grandfather was playing this sort of trick with his granddaughters, which wasn't great.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Graven Image, Anoesis did exactly the same thing I and millions of women have done--you say nothing because a) you are in shock, b) you don't want to create a huge stink at the worst possible moment, c) the whole thing is bizarre enough that you doubt your own perceptions, d) it's so totally deniable, and you know damn well that almost everybody will tell you you imagined it, because it's a "he said, she said" situation, and he IS your brother-in-law. People have a vested interest in not believing you.
I shut up too in a similar situation.
Anoesis, here's my two cents. You are going to have to have the groping conversation with your daughters at some point, and you really don't want to wait on it, because even if nothing happens with this guy, there is a world full of creeps out there, and they are basically guaranteed to run into them within the next couple years. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) So have the groping conversation, and if I were you, I'd retell this story just to illustrate how easy it is to get mind-fucked about what actually happened and how you ought to react. The fact that it happened to you and you told them about it will make it easier for them to confide in you when it happens to them. (wish that was an "if" and not a "when") ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
You can, if you want, vague out his identity (as in, "one of our relatives") but that runs the risk of having them get suspicious of everybody, which is IMHO more harm to their innocence than simply saying "Watch out for uncle So and so." You can, if you wish, say that it's possible alcohol had something to do with it--not to excuse it (and make that clear) but to keep them from worrying that he's going to jump them as soon as they see him. You can certainly say "I haven't heard of him doing this to anybody else, so it's possible it was a one-time bad behavior."
A distant second-best would be to have the groping conversation but leave out any reference to Uncle so-and-so and instead make Trump the primary reason you're talking about this now. If you do that, be sure to underline that this is something that can happen with anybody, including a family member, pastor, doctor, or other trusted person. Make it clear that you want them to tell you and that you won't freak out and go nuclear if they do (of course you won't, but kids worry about setting off an uncontrolled parental response). And tell them in detail about your own experiences, even if you blank out the name of the perp.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Women don't speak up when things like this happen because bad things happen to them when they do. They are ridiculed, or told they're lying, or their feelings are pooh poohed, or many much worse things. And the longer they sit on such memories, the more likely they are to be asked, "Why didn't you say anything at the time"? It's really am inappropriate and unkind response, even supposing good intentions.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Yes, please have a conversation with the younger and more vulnerable women in your family. But you also need to explain to them that people have different ways of showing affection ( a la the five languages of love kind of thing). Some people love to bring gifts, some do things for you, some will tell you encouraging things and some men and women are huggers and touchy feely types. We all know them - it took me a long time to separate out the creepy from the genuinely caring, because sometimes there is a fine line between them. And there were a couple of very creepy men at one church I attended for decades. The other men were aware of how the women felt and kept a close eye on them. You need male as well as female allies if you suspect someone in your family of ill intent. Be vigilant.
Unwanted attention needs to be firmly met by signalling you are not appreciative of the invasion of your person and personal space. If the offender does it again, then by all means get serious about getting documents, witnesses etc.
Police around here take an extremely harsh line with men caught "grooming" potential sexual victims.
We live in an age where such conduct is no longer allowed to be shrugged off. For this I am grateful - but there is a very long way to go before most women in our society will feel more safe than unsafe around men. Sad, but true. I hope the weight of all the stories tips us into a better place eventually. And I hope I may live to see it.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
Thank-you everyone, for your supportive and considered responses.
Graven Image, in hindsight, there is something in what you say. However, at the immediate time, I was shocked/bemused/doubting of my senses, as others have indicated - and in the weeks and months that elapsed afterwards, I suppose I was only thinking about how to respond with respect to my own situation - and I have to say I never felt threatened, as such, which would certainly have drawn a response from me. And as more time passed with no other weirdness, the need to respond at all seemed to lessen. But while it is entirely up to me how I make these judgement calls with regard to my own safety/wellbeing, it is different if someone else's wellbeing is potentially at stake. And I didn't think of that at the time. I wish I had. Because, yes, it would have been - not easier, exactly, but maybe less messy.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Graven Image, Anoesis did exactly the same thing I and millions of women have done--you say nothing because a) you are in shock, b) you don't want to create a huge stink at the worst possible moment, c) the whole thing is bizarre enough that you doubt your own perceptions, d) it's so totally deniable, and you know damn well that almost everybody will tell you you imagined it, because it's a "he said, she said" situation, and he IS your brother-in-law. People have a vested interest in not believing you.
Oh, my, you have got it in one. As is not unusual. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
One thing I really hate about it is that it seems like I too, have a vested in not believing that a member of my extended family is a creep. When you know someone really well, and have known them for years, have seen so much good in them - have observed them through narrowed eyes in the time elapsed and concluded that they have a healthy family life - what is all of that against one little episode of weirdness? If it really is only one little episode. And then, yeah, if everyone stays schtum, no-one ever knows if it's more than one.
With a great sigh, I have to conclude I can't really talk to my daughters about this without first talking to my husband about it. We parent together, after all. Boy, that is going to suck. Not because I doubt he will believe me. Because I don't want to be the one who brings his view of this person crashing down.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Which is why a therapist might help you You sort out your own feelings with a neutral professional, discuss how to present your case, all before you step into the water with family members. It's so messy for you, a little help in sorting it all ought might be in order.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Just an opinion from a man, father of some daughters... yes, agree that you talk to your husband. I'm generally of the opinion that spouses are entitled to all of it. And yes, therapist or counsellor if needed to help. When you predict a response, you're into imagination, and if your's is any like mine, that can be scary.
Now a little left field: if I ever made any member of my wife's extended family or my extended family uncomfortable or weirded them out, or whatever, I would want to know, to have the chance to apologise, explain, cry, anything required.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Anoesis, here's my two cents. You are going to have to have the groping conversation with your daughters at some point, and you really don't want to wait on it, because even if nothing happens with this guy, there is a world full of creeps out there, and they are basically guaranteed to run into them within the next couple years.
This. But it's not just about creeps. Tell your daughters (and make sure that they understand) that if they're not comfortable with some kind of touch, it's completely OK for them to ask for it to stop (and to expect unquestioning compliance), even if there's nothing creepy going on.
And that saying "please don't touch me like that - I don't like it" isn't the same as accusing someone of being a creep, so they shouldn't feel shy about doing it - they're not accusing anyone of bad intent.
As has been said, people have very different senses of physical boundaries. Some people are tactile, huggy people, and some aren't. And that's OK, as long as the huggers respect boundaries when asked.
As far as anoesis's OP goes, it's certainly possible that the ass-touching had completely innocent intent - when you're bent over a dishwasher, your ass/hips are the body part that is available. I'm a man, and I've been grabbed by the hips and moved in a very similar situation, with no kind of creepy intent at all.
OR it could be a guy with wandering hands. Both are possible.
And that's why I'd emphasise that asking not to be touched in some way isn't an accusation of bad faith. Girls (or anyone) shouldn't have to worry about whether this guy is trying for a feel, or whether they're imagining creepiness or anything like that.
It should be as easy for someone to say "hey, don't touch me there" as it is to say "no thanks, I don't take sugar in coffee".
Easier said than done, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You can, if you want, vague out his identity (as in, "one of our relatives") but that runs the risk of having them get suspicious of everybody, which is IMHO more harm to their innocence than simply saying "Watch out for uncle So and so."
Personally, I'd go vaguer. I'd go with "a guy at a dinner party". Tell the story, say that you don't know whether there was bad intent or not, say that it made you uncomfortable, and that in retrospect you wish you'd said "don't grab my ass" or something at the time.
It depends on whether you specifically want to warn them against Uncle Bob or not. It sounded to me that Uncle Bob has only exhibited possibly dodgy behaviour on this one occasion, so I'd be inclined to make this a general conversation rather than singling out one relative as "possible threat" (because Bob isn't the only possible threat - and again, because it doesn't matter what the guy thinks he's doing - you have the right to enforce your boundaries against completely innocent touch as well as against drunk handsy uncles.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And you have excellent and unparalleled examples to resort to, in the current events of the day. Presidential candidate Donald Trump is the finest case study in handsy you could look for, and there is a plethora of material about it. And (assuming God has been merciful to you) no one in your family has ever actually met him. You can discuss it in the abstract, without mentioning Uncle Bob at all.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... As far as anoesis's OP goes, it's certainly possible that the ass-touching had completely innocent intent - when you're bent over a dishwasher, your ass/hips are the body part that is available ...
I have to confess that's what I thought on first reading the OP.
I'm a woman, and I'm sure several friends and relatives of both genders have touched either side of my (quite generously-proportioned ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) hips to get past me in tight spots, and to be honest, I've never given it a second thought.
Having said that, if what he did really offended you, it seems to me rather unfortunate that you couldn't tell him at the time you thought he was being a bit more "touchy-feely" than you're comfortable with.
When it comes to explaining to your daughters that not all touching is "appropriate", I don't think that mentioning Uncle X would be a helpful way of doing it, especially if there was no harm intended in what happened to you beside the dishwasher.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I agree with Piglet. This sounds like a one-off at a Christmas party where, presumably a few drinks were consumed and someone behaved with a little more familiarity than usual. He had the chance to make it more, he could have lingered and been explicit, but all he did was basically move you out of the way so he could get past. He didn’t stop or didn’t make more of the incident and has never repeated it in the four years that followed or given you any cause for qualms.
What you say doesn’t sound indicative of an attraction to young girls. It sounds to me that your kids are comfortable with him and happy to be with him – children are quick enough to pick up on someone being "creepy" and you’d know if your kids started being reluctant to be around him or if they became e.g. withdrawn and unhappy.
If it still bugs you, talk it over in private with your husband and ask what he thinks, but I don’t think bringing this out into the open now would be at all helpful. Presumably you’ve been to other family Christmas events since, where he’s been present and there’s been nothing of that, so I’d regard that as a one-off. People can and do screw up, regret it and not say anything.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Anoesis replied. quote:
Graven Image, in hindsight, there is something in what you say. However, at the immediate time, I was shocked/bemused/doubting
So sorry if what I said sounded like I may be judging your reaction. I did not mean to, I only wondered if you were afraid of him. I once had a man sit next to me on a bus when I was in my 20's. He opened his news paper over our laps as if he was reading and then put his hand up my skirt. Like you I was shocked and wanted to doubt and knew to get away I would have to pass in front of him and the seat ahead. Thanks to advice from a wise aunt I stood up and yelled this man is molesting me. Bus driver stopped the bus and put him off. Most people stared, or looked away from me but one older lady came over and sat next to me and asked if I was ok. I was not but said, yes. I was embarrassed and scared but also felt stronger and somewhat in control of the situation. From then on I have always confronted any one that made me uncomfortable. With a family member I told my husband and both of us spoke to the person who claimed it was an accident. I don't think it was but left it at that. I am very sorry this happened to you and you have to continue to deal with it. And blessing on all the good guys out there who come to our support when those kinds of things are done or joked about.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
For those of you saying this was most likely an innocent "let me get past you" one-off, I think you might be forgetting this bit:
quote:
Then, later,... I got a hug from the owner of the shoes - felt completely unthreatened going in, plenty of other people standing right there. Only a one-armed hug, no lower body contact. Would have looked entirely normal to an observer. It wasn't (I don't think). I had an iron forearm across my back, mashing my boobs into his chest.
Two iffy contacts at a single event make me concerned, too.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
For those of you saying this was most likely an innocent "let me get past you" one-off, I think you might be forgetting this bit:
I hadn't forgotten that bit. It was on the same day at the same event and I'm assuming he'd probably had more to drink by then. If it hasn't been repeated once in four years it sounds like it was a one-off to me, rather than someone still waiting years later for an opportune moment to pounce. Sobriety might well have kicked in the next morning with a different perspective.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Once in a high school art class there was a creep seated next to me. Over the course of a few sessions he got more and more salacious in his conversation, and I wasn't quite sure how to handle it. However, the day he reached over and cupped my boob, I immediately yelled, "Get your hands off me!!" In the midst of the class. He backed off and everyone else, including the teacher, pretended it had never happened. But he never felt me up again.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
For those of you saying this was most likely an innocent "let me get past you" one-off, I think you might be forgetting this bit:
I hadn't forgotten that bit. It was on the same day at the same event and I'm assuming he'd probably had more to drink by then. If it hasn't been repeated once in four years it sounds like it was a one-off to me, rather than someone still waiting years later for an opportune moment to pounce. Sobriety might well have kicked in the next morning with a different perspective.
He hadn't had anything to drink before either incident, unless he kept a quiet hip flask about him somewhere. Not a lot of drinking goes on in my extended family. My husband and I are the lushes of the batch... - although I promise you I wasn't drunk either - not at my father-in-law's house. He did have a very pregnant wife at the time, so perhaps he was fair crazed for lack of nookie. Is that of equivalent value in terms of explaining a lapse in judgement? I don't know.
[ 20. October 2016, 20:10: Message edited by: anoesis ]
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Nope, I wouldn't think so!
My equivalent story had to do with the same sort of overenthusiastic hugs and rubbing (not clearly sexual but ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ) at a time when I was facing the biggest crisis of my life. I could not be totally sure the guy wasn't just trying to comfort me, but it was very out of character for him, and I couldn't help wondering if he saw an opportunity given the very unusual circumstances. Your guy may have thought similarly ("I'm entitled after so long") though I hope not.
I guess I'm trying to say that on that theory, he is no less blameworthy, and you no less sane , but it might explain why the behavior hasn't resurfaced since, at least in regards to you.
[ 20. October 2016, 20:16: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
Thanks again to all those who have posted with their perspectives on the whole thing. I do actually feel considerably more settled/less paranoiac at this point, having simply unloaded about it. Who'd have thought?
It has been really valuable to have the input of a few men, also. NP, your note that if you had upset a female family member through your behaviour, you would want to be given the opportunity to apologise and/or rectify really gave me pause. I don't see that it is realistic for me to do that after four years, but it did make me realise that it would be grossly unfair of me to discuss the issue with anyone other than my husband and [as a names-redacted case study] daughters, because it would in effect be a whisper campaign in which he would have no ability to defend himself.
If I try and distill down what my concerns are here, I find myself, oddly, in a very similar position to that of a dear friend of mine, who came to unload on me a few years ago. She had made a pariah of herself in her extended family, by deciding not to allow her children to attend any function at which a certain other family member was present. This man, who I knew [fortunately] only vaguely, was[is] a serial adulterer, with a doormat of a wife who just put[s] up with it. My friend's husband was very angry with her over her decision, and thought she was being prudish, judgemental, and just all-round ridiculous - 'We're not enabling or justifying his behaviour just by turning up at things he's at!' While I could see that she was actually concerned for her kids, rather than suffering an attack of prudishness, and made all the right noises, privately I thought it was probably a complete overreaction. Clearly this man's penchant was for adult women, and as many as possible - nothing to do with children - so no issues. Fast forward, and I think I see where she was coming from. Clearly this man has either a total disregard for the societal rules governing sexual behaviour, or a complete inability to abide by them. In either case, it means you cannot say 'He would never do that!' with absolute confidence. Now, there is no evidence I am faced with a situation of that magnitude, at all. But I feel a need to be watchful, all the same.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And you have excellent and unparalleled examples to resort to, in the current events of the day. Presidential candidate Donald Trump is the finest case study in handsy you could look for, and there is a plethora of material about it. And (assuming God has been merciful to you) no one in your family has ever actually met him. You can discuss it in the abstract, without mentioning Uncle Bob at all.
Thanks, Brenda. The bracketed bit made me laugh out loud, on a what was a generally grey day. Always good.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
I once had cause to have an oh-so-difficult chat with a friend, who had no idea that his friendly ways, were actually deeply offensive and well nigh akin to assault.
"But I Always......"
"In my family we...."
"I don't Mean......"
"It's not offensive in any way...."
All of these ridiculous ( to my mind anyway) excuses were answered with
" But I Don't Like It" ,
"Just Stop It"
" You look like a letch"
and finally
"If you don't stop this, i shall remind you publicly every time that you do this. Would that help you?"
To my shock, he agreed that this would indeed be helpful, but sadly only for our ongoing friendship. He still maintained that lightly stroking any woman's arms or back, running his hands along limbs etc etc was entirely appropriate. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Some people are letches.
Others are dense.
Maybe there is no way of telling the two apart?
[ 21. October 2016, 10:17: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
I once had cause to have an oh-so-difficult chat with a friend, who had no idea that his friendly ways, were actually deeply offensive and well nigh akin to assault.
"But I Always......"
"In my family we...."
"I don't Mean......"
"It's not offensive in any way...."
All of these ridiculous ( to my mind anyway) excuses were answered with
" But I Don't Like It" ,
"Just Stop It"
" You look like a letch"
and finally
"If you don't stop this, i shall remind you publicly every time that you do this. Would that help you?"
To my shock, he agreed that this would indeed be helpful, but sadly only for our ongoing friendship. He still maintained that lightly stroking any woman's arms or back, running his hands along limbs etc etc was entirely appropriate.
Some people are letches.
Others are dense.
Maybe there is no way of telling the two apart?
Really. Your arm stroking guy has raised my hackles even more than the hip mover and both are out of line, although not necessarily letches. Sigh. Why do men have to touch women when they talk to them? Why can't people just say, "Excuse me," or better yet, wait five seconds till the person in the way has moved on?
I agree with the idea of the little girls getting a touching lesson through a fictitious "dinner party," example that has nothing to do with their Uncle. It would be a shame to put a strain on their enjoyment of the family parties, unnecessarily.
I'm also all for Anoesis telling her husband and letting him keep an eye out. He could give Uncle Touchy a "The girls are getting a little too big, the ladies might take it wrong, you know how women can be," nudge to him that would be face saving and keep it from becoming a big divisive deal.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Your description of this uckiness makes me wonder if there is not some minor impairment in there somewhere -- Aspergers or something. And alas, women are socialized to submit and Be Nice. Even I, a Nasty person, am sometimes far too Nice. I wish there were pocket-sized cattle prods available. Just a little electricity...
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I think Brenda has a fine solution.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why do men have to touch women when they talk to them? Why can't people just say, "Excuse me," or better yet, wait five seconds till the person in the way has moved on?
You've just reminded me that one of my rules of thumb in iffy situations is to think: would he behave like that with another man? Which, assuming the person isn't gay, sometimes helps to determine whether you're being seen as A Woman first and foremost.
That doesn't necessarily preclude that someone is treating you like their sister and shoving you out of the way, though the hug is distinctly questionable. I think Anoesis's lack of reaction was probably the best response - no encouragement but equally no fireworks. If the guy had a heavily pregnant wife that could well explain it, I've known men to have affairs (or try to start them) because they can't get it at home.
quote:
I'm also all for Anoesis telling her husband and letting him keep an eye out. He could give Uncle Touchy a "The girls are getting a little too big, the ladies might take it wrong, you know how women can be," nudge to him that would be face saving and keep it from becoming a big divisive deal.
Excellent idea.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
He did have a very pregnant wife at the time, so perhaps he was fair crazed for lack of nookie. Is that of equivalent value in terms of explaining a lapse in judgement? I don't know.
An explanation, but never an excuse. I tend to second the "go with your instincts" approach ... what empowers you in this situation. You were right to feel creeped out, you are right to empower daughters (as it happens sons too) so that no person has personal space invaded without right redress. You were utterly human to remain silent, bewildered, confused at the time, and that's okay too.
As it happens, and nicely contra Brenda Clough, in our country "therapists" are not a big part of the kulcha, so an approach to a therapist would be highly unusual. Which is not to say deleterious, but I admit to not being a fan on the whole. And I have plenty that would keep a therapist in business!
But you were right to be creeped out, even if it was a two-off incident never repeated. I would/will never touch another human being without their explicit permission, and while I don't set myself up as a role model I think I expect that of any other person. "Excuse me Anoesis" would have done no harm.
As it happens there is a woman I know who is a massive toucher ... absolutely harmless Christian love and self-expression I'm sure, but holey gazoley she gives me the wilts. Please leave my elbow alone, it was like totes happy without your adulation.
Just don't touch without permission. Anyone. Ever.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
anoesis, I'm so sorry for your grim experiences. I have children - female in this case, though I'd discuss it with boys too, and we have had the conversations about touch, and consent, many times. I think it's an important thing to do anyway. You don't have to be specific about a person. We've had them in general terms, followed by a heavy emphasis on "and this applies to everybody, whether they're friends, family, or strangers" etc etc.
I agree with no prophet that if someone in my family had caused distress, I'd want to know.
Being of the mouthy variety, I would also like to think that I would tackle BIL, even after all these years. However, I'm also of the cowardly variety, so the conversation would likely only happen in my head. Having said that - that in itself can sometimes be a useful approach, I have found. I play the conversation I would have in my head, which can be satisfying, and then I feel more primed to respond if anything similar happens again.
[ 22. October 2016, 11:19: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Being of the mouthy variety, I would also like to think that I would tackle BIL, even after all these years.
The problem with this is that he may genuinely not recall the episode.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
That's true, and quite likely, given that he presumably didn't see anything amiss in his behaviour. And of course, if can then descend in to panto of the "Oh yes you did" "Oh no I didn't" variety.
Which is why it might be worth having the conversation in one's head, rather than in real life. But I think the actual conversation may be worth having, if anoesis thinks it might help in some way.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
For anticipated difficult conversations I tend to write a brief script as having some notes helps me to keep to the point and not allow myself be deflected.
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
He did have a very pregnant wife at the time, so perhaps he was fair crazed for lack of nookie. Is that of equivalent value in terms of explaining a lapse in judgement? I don't know.
I do, and it isn't :-)
Being drunk is never an excuse - you are responsible for whatever you do while you're drunk, and if you are prone to doing things you shouldn't, then you should take care not to get drunk.
But it is, perhaps, an explanation - alcohol does lower inhibitions and so on, and could explain why someone would attempt to fondle you whilst drunk, but not whilst sober.
Going through a sexual dry spell would be an explanation for being very - umm - responsive to the merest hint of stimulation. (As a sidenote, there's no particular reason to assume that heavily pregnant women don't want sex.)
But an explanation, or an excuse, for being gropy? No. (Although it's been used several times as a "defense" by rapists.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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