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Source: (consider it) Thread: The "Prosperity Gospel"
Baptist Trainfan
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A recent visit to a church by a Mystery Worshipper has left the reviewer horrified by the preacher's explicit link between "giving God one's first fruits" and "financial breakthrough in one's life".

We all know that the "Prosperity Gospel" has been around for some time; and I can certainly see its attraction - perhaps akin to that of Polynesian "cargo cults" - among impoverished people, especially in the developing world, who have little access to wealth or health.

What I simply don't understand is its apparent success among relatively prosperous people in countries such as Britain. Is it that people get so carried away in the euphoria of worship that they don't notice that (to use the title of the MW report) they are being "fleeced"? Is it that it exploits the link between modern individualistic ideas of self and the inherent self-centredness of Evangelicalism which can so easily focus on "my" blessing and "my" salvation? Or what?

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mark_in_manchester

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Perhaps when we know we're going to do something anyway - like giving - we're susceptible to the idea that we could do that thing _and get an add on such as *** thrown in_. A bit like the old one of buying petrol and getting free wine glasses.

Greed is a sin, so by definition we're all predisposed to it. There's a nice symmetry between giving (our money) and getting (money back) which perhaps slips the idea past our conscience. There again, the payoff probably wouldn't jar us into realisation that something smelly was going on, even if it came in terms of some other sin - lots of sex, attractiveness, ego-boost - which tend to go along with the wealth thing.

And God loves us, right, so he wants us to prosper...

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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SvitlanaV2
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I thought the mystery worshipper was a bit harsh.

AFAICS, giving was presented as a way of receiving. It was about blessings coming to you as a result of generosity to others. That's a biblical teaching, surely? Luke 6? The problem in this case was rather that the 'giving' required involved quite large amounts of money.

Of course, if the people present were mostly well off then giving large amounts of money might not have been a problem - but perhaps they do need blessings in other aspects of their lives.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
AFAICS, giving was presented as a way of receiving. It was about blessings coming to you as a result of generosity to others. That's a biblical teaching, surely? Luke 6?

I don't really see that in Luke 6. But in Matthew 10:8 I see:
quote:
Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment; give without payment.
Or, as it is found in our liturgical documents, "Freely you have received; freely give."

Giving, as I understand it, should have nothing at all to do with what we get out of it, and everything to do with gratitude for what we have already received.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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Giving to whom? To what?

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

What I simply don't understand is its apparent success among relatively prosperous people in countries such as Britain.

People generally look up when they are evaluating their place in life, not down. We tend to become accustomed to what we have so it does not feel like excess.
But there is nothing in the prosperity gospel that is rational, so expecting rational behaviour from its adherents is a bit much.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I thought the mystery worshipper was a bit harsh.

AFAICS, giving was presented as a way of receiving. It was about blessings coming to you as a result of generosity to others. That's a biblical teaching, surely? Luke 6? The problem in this case was rather that the 'giving' required involved quite large amounts of money.

I don't know, giving in expectation of receiving is not exactly the definition of generosity not does it seem very Christian.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Baptist Trainfan
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I really wasn't wanting the thread to focus on the MW report itself. [Cool]

[ 04. October 2016, 20:07: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Jamat
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The tragedy is that the prosperity preachers are the face of Christianity on TV. I am convinced their motives are mercenary and that they prey on the poor. They are wolves.

Making prosperity conditional on our seed sowing is a teaching which puts us in the driving seat. It is making the almighty a sock puppet. To say God wants all Christians healthy wealthy is to set oneself up for a huge fall.

The roots of it are in A teaching called dominionism or kingdom now. And earlier in Christian Science. The idea of spiritual laws that anyone can discover and work is pretty insidious. Most of the mega churches use it. Their sermons are continually teaching success principles.

Unfortunately most of the Pentecostal people I know are really susceptible to this. They are often needy and uneducated. I am a bit surprised a mystery worshipper would be in one of those environments.

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Martin60
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I'm all for the Kingdom now. I'd love to see any of these parasites repent and take it to the poor. But they are still under Satan's dominion in their delusion that they have replaced him.

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't know, giving in expectation of receiving is not exactly the definition of generosity not does it seem very Christian.

I was thinking of Luke 6 v 38:

Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Several other verses also suggest reciprocity. Even those who turn the other cheek or do good to those who hurt them are given the hope that God will reward them later. (v 35).

But on a basic level perhaps it's more interesting to consider that all churches offer 'benefits' of some sort to those who give themselves to church life. If prosperity isn't on offer in exchange for commitment than something else, probably unspoken, surely is.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
This does not suggest the Earthly reward that the Prosperity Gospel promises, but more of a Heavenly one.
It does say that if you give with expectation, and that would include any divine reward, that it is wrong.
Reciprocity is definitely not on.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[...]
This does not suggest the Earthly reward that the Prosperity Gospel promises, but more of a Heavenly one.

I agree that it's probably referring to a heavenly reward, although I'm not sure that it's a heavenly reward exclusively.

The problem with denying any kind of reciprocity, ISTM, is that Christianity then becomes an unhelpful religion for the poor, because despite their commitment it refuses to assist them with their material needs in this life. It's better suited to those who are already quite comfortable, because they don't need any dodgy prosperity theology to help them make ends meet....

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[...]
This does not suggest the Earthly reward that the Prosperity Gospel promises, but more of a Heavenly one.

I agree that it's probably referring to a heavenly reward, although I'm not sure that it's a heavenly reward exclusively.

The problem with denying any kind of reciprocity, ISTM, is that Christianity then becomes an unhelpful religion for the poor, because despite their commitment it refuses to assist them with their material needs in this life. It's better suited to those who are already quite comfortable, because they don't need any dodgy prosperity theology to help them make ends meet....

Well, there are plenty of por faithful who never receive anything in this life. Were they all just horrible people? There are children who die, some in horrible ways, before they have any meaningful way to be good or bad.
It does not make sense to posit an earthly reward.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm all for the Kingdom now. I'd love to see any of these parasites repent and take it to the poor. But they are still under Satan's dominion in their delusion that they have replaced him.

Well Halleluia, for once we are in total agreement.
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Martin60
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[Biased] of course.

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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lilBuddha

It's not a question of people being punished for being 'horrible', but of their experiencing the encouragement that putting their faith into action will make some kind of tangible difference to their lives. The Bible does give some indication - although obviously not without great qualification - that this is a justifiable hope to have.

In fact, I think there's a great deal of tension between the idea that being a Christian will make your life better and the idea that it might make your life even worse. And then there's the kind of faith that's somewhat nervous about Christianity making any kind of significant difference to a person's life. All of these positions probably reflect the reality depending on the context, and could be argued from the Bible.

The prosperity gospel no doubt reflects a real desire for something better. I think Christians should think carefully before they stamp on that. Especially if they're better off than the people who are experiencing that yearning.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Which is why I asked the question of why people who do not seem to be unhealthy or impoverished are attracted by it. (I can certainly understand its attraction to poor people, even the sense of "pride in our pastor" when they see him/her driving round in a shiny new car).
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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I was thinking of Luke 6 v 38

Okay, I guess I can see that. But in context, I'm not sure that's quite what "give and it shall be given to you" really means.

quote:
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap; for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”
I think in context, it may be more of a riff on the Golden Rule—expect to be treated the way you treat others.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This does not suggest the Earthly reward that the Prosperity Gospel promises, but more of a Heavenly one.

I think this is a common view, but I think it is only slightly less problematic than the Prosperity Gospel, because I think it distorts what Jesus taught, at least in some instances. I don't think Jesus was talking about a pie-in-the-sky reward in the sweet bye-and-bye. I think he was talking about abundant life now—life that is abundant because it is lived in accordance with God's will for the world, because in living this life we find real joy in communion with the divine. That's something that is both eternal and immediate.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The problem with denying any kind of reciprocity, ISTM, is that Christianity then becomes an unhelpful religion for the poor, because despite their commitment it refuses to assist them with their material needs in this life.

The problem with expecting some kind of reciprocity, IMO, is that Christianity becomes a religion that fails to follow Jesus.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Louise
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hosting
This isn't a Dead Horse ( the list of Dead Horse topics is in the board guidelines) and seems to be a general discussion of the prosperity gospel, so it belongs in Purgatory.
Thanks,
L
Dead Horses host

hosting

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Which is why I asked the question of why people who do not seem to be unhealthy or impoverished are attracted by it. (I can certainly understand its attraction to poor people, even the sense of "pride in our pastor" when they see him/her driving round in a shiny new car).

Maybe it's because in cities like London even the supposedly comfortable lifestyles of professional people can be hard to maintain without a lot of pressure and anxiety. Especially for young people who don't feel themselves to be progressing materially, despite all of their (expensive) qualifications and their jobs in hip offices in Zone 1.

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The problem with expecting some kind of reciprocity, IMO, is that Christianity becomes a religion that fails to follow Jesus.

One answer to that is simply to cease to see such believers as Christians, in which case their theology is no longer a 'Christian' problem.

Another answer might be for Christians to be encouraged to lower their expectations of Christianity. (Myself, I sometimes wonder if I'm looking for something in the faith that it has no duty to 'give' me.) But again, you can see how this would appeal to some social groups more than others.

Christianity as primarily selfless duty has a bleak, joyless reputation today. I imagine that many churches accept, if only tacitly, that Christians frequently engage in the life of the church in order to fulfil personal needs, whether regarding prosperity or (more commonly) emotional release, etc. Therefore, any charitable giving members are asked to undertake must help fulfil those personal needs in some way. To me, this is a sort of reciprocity, even if the term seems distasteful or even unbiblical to some.

I don't know if these tendencies are more common today than in the past. The decline of Christian practice has perhaps made them more visible. I suspect that anxious people (even those who are doing relatively well) are making up a bigger proportion of congregations than before, and some denominations might simply be more inclined to attract them.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Christianity as primarily selfless duty has a bleak, joyless reputation today.

I would think so, if it is considered "duty." But personally, at least, I'm not used to hearing it presented that way. I'm accustomed to hearing it presented as opportunity, as an invitation to join in ministry. Perhaps this is one of those times where my Reformed background is showing, viewing it not as selfless duty but as grateful response to God's graciousness.

quote:
I imagine that many churches accept, if only tacitly, that Christians frequently engage in the life of the church in order to fulfil personal needs, whether regarding prosperity or (more commonly) emotional release, etc.
Sure. I would imagine that churches assume it. The question is whether those needs are self-centered ones (such as to advance ones career or social standing—yes, it's a thing around here) or a less self-centered though still personal one, such as the need for emotional healing or community, and whether we are encouraged to move beyond them.

quote:
Therefore, any charitable giving members are asked to undertake must help fulfil those personal needs in some way. To me, this is a sort of reciprocity, even if the term seems distasteful or even unbiblical to some.
I think I get what you're saying, and I can see it up to a point, but I do find it problematic anytime the church suggests that we should give or serve because we're going to get something in return. I think the church's role is to lead us beyond that.

To me, it's not about being asked to undertake charitable giving—that really isn't how I think of it, nor how I have been taught to think of it by the churches I've belonged to. I was brought up and encouraged to think in terms of gratitude.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I don't think Jesus was talking about a pie-in-the-sky reward in the sweet bye-and-bye.

That is not exactly what I meant. The basic of what I interpret those passages to mean is that one should not do good for the sake of reward. The passage seems to say that if you can manage this, God will reward you. Which is a problematic way to put it.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Christianity as primarily selfless duty has a bleak, joyless reputation today.

This is not how I see as Jesus' message. It is more that following Him will bring you joy in itself, regardless of your temporal prosperity.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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ExclamationMark
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I give not because of what I want to get back but because of the help I can bring with the resources I can share.

The Prosperity Gospel is an example of the American Dream. It's about me, my needs and my lifestyle. It's the politics of envy. It's the sales scheme to beat all sales schemes. It's the road to despair.

Why the latter? Just look at the Car Park of a church teaching this kind of stuff. There is evidence of material blessing but the biggest and newest cars always belong to the staff and they are parked in reserved bays. Everyone else takes pot luck with their rusty car somewhere else.

Why do rich people get taken in? Well for soem of the reasons "poor" people do - they trust the church and what it teaches; they lack the ability to be able to look at the bible' big pucture not just a few "giving" texts. They don't understand that giving isn't just bunging money at something but a commitment to give your life and what it means. They give 10% and think it'd all over - for some it's just starting at that level, for others it's just not right.

Prosperity Gospel demonstrates the poverty of the church not the poverty of the poor.

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mr cheesy
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I think what we're seeing is a focus within the "rump" of Evangelical churches on the middle classes for various reasons - more stable income for the church being a big factor. We also see a trend towards individualism within those kinds of churches, which I think means that the "prosperity gospel" isn't far from the surface a lot of the time.

AFAIU the phenomena, we might not often see the excesses of the whole "give x amount to God and he'll give you a Mercedes" in middle-class UK congregations - but it is certainly a subtle subtext. If we're praising God for healing, for exam results, for job progression whilst continually talking about blessing, then we must be saying something about those who do not receive those things from God (ie that they're not blessed).

As to why it is so pervasive; on the whole, Christianity in the UK has become a middle-class pursuit. The previous working-class forms of Christianity (particularly from the Wesleyan branch of Evangelicalism) very largely had a different concept of blessing. It wasn't so much that earthly needs were not considered, there was something more about recognising that working people were often trapped in their situation and that - as a community - spiritual and earthly resources were needed to cope with the present reality not to transport them out of it.

It seems like these movements were very level headed on these points, leading to temporal expressions in politics and trade unionism.

As these social constructs have fallen away, working class Evangelical religion of this kind has died - and in many communities pretty much the only form of evangelical religion that is available is very middle class and very focussed on middle class concerns.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Sorry, that was a bit of a jumble of thoughts;

TL;DR version: the death of Wesleyan Evangelical working-class religion has led to a middle-class takeover of the faith, leading to increasing individualism.

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arse

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
AFAIU the phenomena, we might not often see the excesses of the whole "give x amount to God and he'll give you a Mercedes" in middle-class UK congregations - but it is certainly a subtle subtext. If we're praising God for healing, for exam results, for job progression whilst continually talking about blessing, then we must be saying something about those who do not receive those things from God (ie that they're not blessed).

Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz.
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.


You should be able to buy this somewhere, still. Hunt it out.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:


You should be able to buy this somewhere, still. Hunt it out.

Ah dammit, Janis had all the best lines.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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Well, I think that many Christians have an image somewhere in their minds of God as the Good Fairy supplying all their wishes. But doesn't the Prosperity Gospel go beyond that idea, and systematise it into a theological system?
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Schroedinger's cat

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Interestingly, this sounds like (being generous) a watered down prosperity gospel, something that I have heard in all sorts of places (and is more likely to be heard in the UK than the full blown ideas).

It goes along the lines of "If you give generously, you will be blessed back. This blessing will cover all areas, including your financial dealings"

The full blown PG would be more aggressive "If you give money to us, God will give you 10 times as much back" which always sounds like a spiritual Ponzi scheme to me (and is as corrupt).

The real problem I have with even the watered down version is that it is always about "giving to us, to the church, to the 'ministry'" which is never what the Biblical message is about.

AIUI, the Bible message is that if you are generous, giving, caring and concerned about others - especially the poor, widows, strangers, the neglected - then this is a Good Think in the eyes of God, and he will bless you and cause you to prosper. This blessing may not be in physical or material prosperity, but in heavenly credits. And yes, there will probably be some prospering in business too. Not to a degree that will definitively pay you back, but you will live a life in God's favour.

I can see why it is very attractive as an idea, in certain areas. Places like Hackney are attracting city workers more and more, and a lot of the city mentality is about investment - you put money into this, and you get this financial return. I think the prosperity gospel is about the same thing. And is as utterly immoral.

It reminds me of a sketch from years ago where a charity flag-seller was talking to a businessman, who wanted to know just how this financial investment deal would work. "So I give you money, and you give me a sticker? But this sticker isn't worth much? I don't understand this deal. What happens to the money? Where do I get my return on it?"

The core issue is that for so many people, their only idea of "blessing" is money. Not only unbiblical, but very dangerous.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Well, I think that many Christians have an image somewhere in their minds of God as the Good Fairy supplying all their wishes.

I don't think they do - or at least, I don't think they did. The miners here in this Valley were intensely religious (I mean, seriously, how many big Methodist chapels does one small place need?) and kept on getting wiped out in terrible accidents throughout the 19 century.

I don't see any evidence that they believed themselves to be unblessed (cursed?) to be working here or that there was some kind of divine judgement upon those who died in the accidents.

AFAIU the church gave them an education, the pit gave them work, religion gave them hope and a reason to continue, the union gave them a vision of a better tomorrow. I don't see anyone suggesting offering a carrot suggesting that belief in this sect would mean the deity would whisk them out of the dirt.

quote:
But doesn't the Prosperity Gospel go beyond that idea, and systematise it into a theological system?
No, I think it is absolutely a mistake to imagine the prosperity gospel is just a minority sport. The ideas - usually unspoken - are pervasive in British evangelical churches.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I don't think Jesus was talking about a pie-in-the-sky reward in the sweet bye-and-bye.

That is not exactly what I meant. The basic of what I interpret those passages to mean is that one should not do good for the sake of reward. The passage seems to say that if you can manage this, God will reward you. Which is a problematic way to put it.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Christianity as primarily selfless duty has a bleak, joyless reputation today.

This is not how I see as Jesus' message. It is more that following Him will bring you joy in itself, regardless of your temporal prosperity.

I'm not sure it's even that. It's just that you are doing the Right Thing. Virtue its own reward and all that.

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Sipech
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I sometimes wonder if the prosperity gospel comes from a similar root to liberation theology, but which has moved along a completely different hermeneutical route.

Both seem rooted in poverty and a desire to escape it. Liberation theology says that God is on the side of the oppressed and meets us where we are, prosperity gospel says 'look at the riches of capitalism; these shall be yours if you first invest in me'.

There's an element of it being a consequence of what might be called a verse-by-verse way of looking at scripture, with Jeremiah 29:11 being the most out-of-context quoted text in prosperity gospel churches:
quote:
For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope.
It's so often read as though it is God writing to today's christians, and is stripped of its context of the people of Israel in exile in Babylon.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Interestingly, this sounds like (being generous) a watered down prosperity gospel, something that I have heard in all sorts of places (and is more likely to be heard in the UK than the full blown ideas).

It goes along the lines of "If you give generously, you will be blessed back. This blessing will cover all areas, including your financial dealings"

Which can rapidly slide into the more aggressive version you describe as soon as tithing is discussed ("People ask whether you should tithe net or gross, well do you want God to bless you net or gross?").
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mr cheesy
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At the other end of the spectrum, I think it creates an environment for ministers, pastors and clergy which is set up for them to fail.

Leaders are expected to be the living embodiment of the perfect spiritual life and are therefore expected to have perfect (and "blessed") family lives etc.

A lot of the time, those who scale the heights within this subculture come unstuck, very often via sexual indiscretion.

The final irony is that those who fall are often back in the same or similar seat within a very short time as if nothing has happened..

I mean, gadzuks, the pressures of modern life mean that these things are hardly unexpected. But it seems like telling ourselves that we're somehow on the road to blessings is a short road towards infidelity.

Of course I could just be seeing things that aren't really related.

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Kaplan Corday
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This sort of theology can take some interesting forms.

We once received a form letter explaining that if we were Christians, but not not wealthy, it was because Satan was withholding money which was rightfully ours.

If we sent some money, the sender of the letter would strive in prevailing prayer to force Satan to release it - the amount released being proportional to whichever of the graded sums listed in the letter that we had the faith to send.

For example, if we sent only $10, then Satan would be be forced to release $100, but if we sent $500 then he would be forced to release $5,000.

Did we respond in faith?

Absolutely!

That's why we're now multi-millionaires, praise the Lord.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
At the other end of the spectrum, I think it creates an environment for ministers, pastors and clergy which is set up for them to fail.

Leaders are expected to be the living embodiment of the perfect spiritual life and are therefore expected to have perfect (and "blessed") family lives etc.

A lot of the time, those who scale the heights within this subculture come unstuck, very often via sexual indiscretion.

The final irony is that those who fall are often back in the same or similar seat within a very short time as if nothing has happened..

I mean, gadzuks, the pressures of modern life mean that these things are hardly unexpected. But it seems like telling ourselves that we're somehow on the road to blessings is a short road towards infidelity.

Of course I could just be seeing things that aren't really related.

I was present when Mark Stibbe listed his blessings and said, as I vividly recall as it curdled my guts as I heard it, "If it's on [the list], it's in [the bag].". Just before he crashed and burned trashing his marriage and family. A short lived appeal was then launched by Chorleywood-type followers to financially support this jet setting circus. I see a linear connection through these dots, starting and ending with bourgeois Christianity.

Talking of which, as on the "What comes first, God's call or our desires?", are we to feel sorry for our non-incarnational clergy in genteel bourgeois poverty compared with their Mercedes driving parishioners?

One distressed clergy residence I know inside out.

Another.

The addresses in the images are NOT of clergy.

In my Father's house are many mansions eh?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... The problem with denying any kind of reciprocity, ISTM, is that Christianity then becomes an unhelpful religion for the poor, ....

But anything that is founded on a lie, or a version of theology that is so wrong that it becomes a lie, is unhelpful to the poor.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I was present when Mark Stibbe listed his blessings and said, as I vividly recall as it curdled my guts as I heard it, "If it's on [the list], it's in [the bag].". Just before he crashed and burned trashing his marriage and family. A short lived appeal was then launched by Chorleywood-type followers to financially support this jet setting circus. I see a linear connection through these dots, starting and ending with bourgeois Christianity.

I wasn't even thinking of that particular trainwreck. I wonder how many of that particular subset have crashed in a similar way - I can think of several, I'm guessing there are more.

quote:
Talking of which, as on the "What comes first, God's call or our desires?", are we to feel sorry for our non-incarnational clergy in genteel bourgeois poverty compared with their Mercedes driving parishioners?
Mission to clubbers in Ayia Napa anyone?

quote:
The addresses in the images are NOT of clergy.
No idea what you posted these images for, Martin. Big houses exist.. yeah. So?

quote:
In my Father's house are many mansions eh?
You are saying that large excessive manses and vicarages are the norm in Surrey (or wherever it is that you live)? That seems unlikely.

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Martin60
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Leicester. Ancestrally from Leamington. As in then pictures of vicar's neighbourhoods. The clue's in my From:

[ 05. October 2016, 10:49: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Leicester.

Leicester? Seriously? There are massive mansions as vicarages in Leicester?

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Martin60
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Oh, so 5 bed, two garages, detached with grounds doesn't even colloquially compare with Chatsworth?

Why do you defend it mate?

The UTTER lack of incarnationality?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Oh, so 5 bed, two garages, detached with grounds doesn't even colloquially compare with Chatsworth?

Why do you defend it mate?

The UTTER lack of incarnationality?

Slow down chum, I'm not defending anything, I'm just trying to extract meaning from your cryptic messages.

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Martin60
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I'm sorry mr cheesy.

And I very much liked what you said about the Welsh miners.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

As on the "What comes first, God's call or our desires?", are we to feel sorry for our non-incarnational clergy in genteel bourgeois poverty compared with their Mercedes driving parishioners?

One distressed clergy residence I know inside out.

Another.

The addresses in the images are NOT of clergy.

In my Father's house are many mansions eh?

The houses in the pictures are very similar to the ones around them. Does this mean that the vicarages and churches you know are in the same well-heeled neighbourhoods?

I suppose that clergy who reject nice homes can still successfully attract and minister to 'genteel bourgeois' congregations, but it must be quite rare. However, I think some clergymen rather like chastising their middle class congregations, and living in a very obviously self-sacrificing way would give them the credibility for doing so.

Of course, in such a middle class setting any minister who chooses to live in a council flat and criticise the prosperity gospel (or just capitalism tout court) may still have to nurture his or her cultural and social capital in order to engage confidently with the educated and well-heeled folk in that environment. Especially, I imagine, in the South East of England.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Anything that is founded on a lie, or a version of theology that is so wrong that it becomes a lie, is unhelpful to the poor.

Maybe.

I'm reminded of that old quote about South American religion: Liberal theology opted for the poor, but the poor opted for Pentecostalism. Would you say that the poor didn't know what was good for them?

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I don't think Jesus was talking about a pie-in-the-sky reward in the sweet bye-and-bye.

That is not exactly what I meant. The basic of what I interpret those passages to mean is that one should not do good for the sake of reward. The passage seems to say that if you can manage this, God will reward you. Which is a problematic way to put it.
Sorry. I thought you probably didn't mean it quite that way, and I thought I qualified my response a little more, by suggesting that the real problem comes when the "my reward is in heaven" position is pushed to the extreme. On re-read, I realize I wasn't as clear about that as I thought I was.

I'm still not quite convinced, though, that Luke 6 is really about God rewarding us if we do good for good's sake. The passage quoted above comes after the Golden Rule and the discourse about "big deal if you love those who love you. Love those who hate you." (Which includes the admonition to love and lend without expecting anything in return.) It comes before the discourse about seeing the speck in another's eye but ignoring the log in your own eye.

The only reward mentioned is in Luke 6:35: "Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked."

So to the extent there is any reward or or reciprocity here, it's not really God giving a heavenly reward; it seems to me to be more like Jesus's version of "what goes around comes around," maybe even Jesus's version of karma. Live as a child of God, and in so doing you'll find joy and fulfillment.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

As on the "What comes first, God's call or our desires?", are we to feel sorry for our non-incarnational clergy in genteel bourgeois poverty compared with their Mercedes driving parishioners?

One distressed clergy residence I know inside out.

Another.

The addresses in the images are NOT of clergy.

In my Father's house are many mansions eh?

The houses in the pictures are very similar to the ones around them. Does this mean that the vicarages and churches you know are in the same well-heeled neighbourhoods?

I suppose that clergy who reject nice homes can still successfully attract and minister to 'genteel bourgeois' congregations, but it must be quite rare. However, I think some clergymen rather like chastising their middle class congregations, and living in a very obviously self-sacrificing way would give them the credibility for doing so.

Of course, in such a middle class setting any minister who chooses to live in a council flat and criticise the prosperity gospel (or just capitalism tout court) may still have to nurture his or her cultural and social capital in order to engage confidently with the educated and well-heeled folk in that environment. Especially, I imagine, in the South East of England.

This is the post-industrial Midlands. I live right on the fault line with an assistant vicar two doors down and a vicar round the corner. The red brick Pakistani terraces start immediately beyond us.

As I said once to the nice middle class lady who toured all the middle class home groups to teach us how to be evangelists.

Show me.

The CoE has been living the prosperity gospel for centuries.

[ 05. October 2016, 13:36: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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Please do remember that Ministers usually have little choice in where they live, and that they often have no capital of their own. Their prosperity may well be something of an illusion, although it is true that they may be protected from some of the uncertainties of life faced by other people (e.g. they probably don't have to choose between fixing the boiler or taking a summer holiday).

Obviously clergy do have to decide whether to go to a struggling deprived inner-city parish or a prosperous suburban one ... this I think is perhaps a better line of enquiry (and takes us back to the OP).

When we were in London we lives first in a terraced property which was bang in the middle of the local housing market. In our next church we had a nice Edwardian semi-detached house which today is worth £1.5m but which the church had purchased many moons before for £1500. As it happens they couldn't afford to maintain it properly and we suggested that they sell it after we left and buy a smaller property. They did that but the profit they got, although substantial, wasn't as large as you might have thought as local house prices were so high.

[ 05. October 2016, 13:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Martin60
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Ay up Baptist, I trust that you know that you, like Zappa and Lamb Chopped, can do no wrong by me?

And I know you and they are not THE Incarnation and that radically serving the community MUST be in the name of Christ and by the Spirit.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is the post-industrial Midlands. I live right on the fault line with an assistant vicar two doors down and a vicar round the corner. The red brick Pakistani terraces start immediately beyond us.

I see. Your photos didn't make the context clear.

Of course, few CofE clergy probably have the skills or training to evangelise among working class Pakistanis (and few congregations have the vision and the nurturing set-up to receive them, TBH) so just putting a posh vicar into a terraced house might not make much difference by itself. But who knows?

quote:


The CoE has been living the prosperity gospel for centuries.

It used to be the Tory Party at prayer, so that's hardly surprising, is it?

Powerful, prestigious institutions find it hard to make common cause with people who are struggling financially, although individuals may make an effort.

Churches usually find it easier to appeal to that constituency if they're grass roots movements, rather than middle class people ministering to the masses. But over time almost all church groups become middle class, until they get to the point when it's far easier for them to be for the poor than of the poor.

[ 05. October 2016, 19:33: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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True of the Labour Party, too.
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