Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Corporate worship or tickling one's tastebuds
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
On the 'church coffee' thread there developed a tangent about the merits or otherwise of sitting down drinking coffee during a service of worship. There are now many churches of all denominations where this is encouraged.
Some of us grumpier and more fogily-inclined shipmates may disapprove intensely. Others will question whether sitting, kneeling or standing in hard wooden pews are conducive to reverence or any sense of worship. There is now (and I'm talking specifically of the C of E) express endorsement of the 'letting a thousand flowers bloom' philosophy and accepting a wide variety of worship styles as equally valid. Within a few miles of where I live I could worship at a Solemn Mass in language and ceremonial indistinguishable from that in a traditional, if exceptional, Roman Catholic church; a Family Service with endless modern choruses and clergy, if any, unrobed;1662 Holy Communion with the priest in black scarf standing at the north end of the Table; a modern Catholic liturgy modelled on the style of Richard Giles and Philadelphia Cathedral; a wordy and worthy 'social justice' themed Liberal Protestant Service of the Word; a ponderous but musically excellent Cathedral Eucharist... and many others.
That's fine, and no doubt people are generally happy with the church and style that they choose. If it draws them closer to God and each other, who could criticise? That is the beauty of the Church of England.
But the comment of mine which sparked off that tangent was about the reaction of people used to one -extremely relaxed - style confronted by a very different formal liturgy, namely an ordination. It strikes me it isn't very helpful for us always to remain in our own ghettoes, even if we think our way is God's way. If the Church is more than just a collection of disconnected cliques, we need to get out of our comfort zones more often. Especially on occasions which celebrate the Church as something wider than our own group: an ordination, a visit of the Bishop, a Deanery eucharist or whatever.
In the old days we had the default liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, which united all (or nearly all) Anglicans across the traditions. Now even the vestigial commonality provided by Common Worship is becoming unfamiliar to some people. Is the time not ripe for a reassertion of the notion of Common Prayer, at least as the basis from which we sometimes stray?
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Angloid, I'm not a member of the CofE, but I do believe that there is always room for the concept of the church to evolve. Sometimes it takes centuries; sometimes it comes in the form of more frequent schisms.
Sometimes it's hard to think of how far we've come since the early church.
And it doesn't seem that change can really come about without trial and error, which might account for some things that seem to be trendy and then fade away.
sabine
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I find it a bit odd to go to one church because you like it. Christians are primarily members of a universal church, not an individual congregation.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Angloid: It strikes me it isn't very helpful for us always to remain in our own ghettoes, even if we think our way is God's way. If the Church is more than just a collection of disconnected cliques, we need to get out of our comfort zones more often. Especially on occasions which celebrate the Church as something wider than our own group.
Yes! Yes! (And it's true for Baptists too, though our range of worship styles is generally less broad).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by venbede: I find it a bit odd to go to one church because you like it. Christians are primarily members of a universal church, not an individual congregation.
You are perhaps very lucky not to have been to a church that really, really didn't work for you. If only it were as simple as you imply.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sabine: Angloid, I'm not a member of the CofE, but I do believe that there is always room for the concept of the church to evolve. Sometimes it takes centuries; sometimes it comes in the form of more frequent schisms.
Sometimes it's hard to think of how far we've come since the early church.
And it doesn't seem that change can really come about without trial and error, which might account for some things that seem to be trendy and then fade away.
sabine
I don't deny any of that. I'm not dismissing any of the newer (which aren't always that new anyway) styles or trends in worship. We need to grow and change and what might seem like an outrageous experiment to some may become accepted as mainstream before we know it.
My point is, that if people's experience is of only one type, whether 'traditional' or otherwise, they will have no common language to enable them to share with others whose experience is different. (I use 'language' metaphorically as well as literally). We can't afford to lose sight of the fact that we belong to 'one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church', and we need a common liturgical tradition to keep us aware of that. However loosely some communities sit lightly to that (and for good reason, often) it needs to be in the background and part of our common resource pack as Christians (or at least as Anglicans, Catholics, Baptists or whatever.)
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Here in the States, the Episcopal Church probably looks quite a bit like what Angloid is going for. While there are some authorized liturgies out there that are not in the '78 prayer book, none of them stray too far from the original source material. You have a lot of leeway to do different things within the framework set by the rubrics, but unless you are just making stuff up that isn't in the rubrics, chances are it will seem pretty familiar to anyone who visits from another Episcopal church.
I suspect that a lot of this comes down to a big difference between TEC and the CoE, that TEC has no official state position, and thus does not feel a need to be a big tent for many different flavors.
-------------------- "I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Angloid:
My point is, that if people's experience is of only one type, whether 'traditional' or otherwise, they will have no common language to enable them to share with others whose experience is different. (I use 'language' metaphorically as well as literally). We can't afford to lose sight of the fact that we belong to 'one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church', and we need a common liturgical tradition to keep us aware of that. However loosely some communities sit lightly to that (and for good reason, often) it needs to be in the background and part of our common resource pack as Christians (or at least as Anglicans, Catholics, Baptists or whatever.)
I should think that ecumenicalism in a broad sense is what helps churchgoing Christians to 'share with others'. It shouldn't require every church to use exactly the same liturgies for us to feel that we're worshipping the same God, following the same Christ.
On a practical level, I don't know how a denomination that's developed a reputation for breadth, i.e the CofE, could suddenly begin to lay down the law on these matters if it hasn't been doing so up to now. It would create antagonism rather than unity.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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