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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A year without god.
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
In 2012 Premier Radio (London) suggested a 40 day prayer experiment in which some 70 'atheist' volunteers took part. See the details here:
Atheist Prayer Experiment
A less positive review can be found here:
A more negative view
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
What strikes me is the sense that in 'removing' God he's actually filling the void and actively searching for people, literature, events, etc that are, albeit of an atheistic nature and identity, fulfilling the purpose of church and faith.
His attempt seems to me to be a luxury - he has education, money and choice. And it all seems rather self-indulgent. The literature, the events, the people are all 'highbrow', rarified and academic.
One wonders what an ordinary person would do because this experiment of his is certainly not the kind of thing an office worker, a shop assistant, a fire-fighter, would do.
A more authentic experiment would have been to say 'from today I am an atheist with no God and for him to fill his time going to bars, sports events, garden centres and playing with his family and watching TV.
It seems to me that what he has actually done is replace his former personal God with all the trappings of spirituality and introduce a cerebral god of the mind.
In actual fact he's merely taken on a different god.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
What difference does God make? About a year ago a friend and Episcopal priest, told me her atheist friend asked her this question. She found it harder to answer than she expected.
Sigh.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I fail to see why an evening godlessly going to the pub is somehow superior to godlessly reading Principia Mathematica However.
I think he will find the imperatives he's hitherto lived by turn into ropes of sand. There is no code to everyday life, no hidden purpose to be second guessed. It is not about you. Enjoy what you can, endure what you must. Help others because we are all in this together and you may as well.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I think delivering a 30 minute sermon on the subject "What's the point, really?" to a panel of theologians should be a minimum requirement for ordination in TEC.
Automatic failure for using any of the following terms: apophatic theology, mystery, three-legged stool, via media, liberation theology, feminist theology, or Franciscan spirituality.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Good luck finding a panel of Episcopal theologians capable of answering the question themselves.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I just find this sad. It's like taking a break from a marriage--not something you seriously consider unless it's on tge rocks already. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It seems a daft experiment to me and one that is likely to lead to a foregone conclusion or self-fulfilling prophecy ... ie. 'I can live without God.'
In which case, he'll get what he wants.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that knowledge of God or engagement with God is down to our self-efforts or anything - but if we set out to live without God then we'll live without God - or at least without the consciousness that he 'is' irrespective whether we believe in Him or not.
On thing that Mudfrog posted did irk me a wee bit ...
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The literature, the events, the people are all 'highbrow', rarified and academic.
One wonders what an ordinary person would do because this experiment of his is certainly not the kind of thing an office worker, a shop assistant, a fire-fighter, would do.
A more authentic experiment would have been to say 'from today I am an atheist with no God and for him to fill his time going to bars, sports events, garden centres and playing with his family and watching TV.
This suggests, to me at least, that Mudfrog believes that 'rarefied' or academic literature and other pursuits aren't for the ordinary person at all ... and what ordinary people (whoever they are) are interested in is the pub, the bar, sport, gardens and TV etc ...
As if people who are 'academic' aren't interested in these things.
I know university professors and boffins who are big football fans.
This came up on the poetry and evangelicalism thread too, where Mudfrog seemed to think that an interest in poetry isn't the sort of thing 'ordinary' people go in for.
Sure, an interest in poetry is a minority thing, but there's a lot more ordinary people out there who're into it than Mudfrog imagines. I meet them all the time ... at poetry readings, open-mics and so on.
I suspect, though, that if people who weren't interested in the sort of things this bloke is decided to give up on God they'd just go ahead and do it without trying to record or chart it in someway.
I also suggest that it is axiomatic that whatever floats our boat in Christian terms (or in atheist or agnostic or 'secular' terms) is going to float our boat if we abandon or shift our position.
I used to be interested in history before my evangelical conversion. That didn't stop when I became an evangelical Christian. I may have read more Christian history, but I continued to be interested in history.
I have no desire to become an atheist, but if I did, I suspect I'd continue to be interested in history and might well read up on the history of atheism ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What I'm suggesting is that if the chap conducting the experiment is rather bookish - which he appears to be - then he'll continue to be bookish during his experiment.
That doesn't make it inauthentic.
He is acting in a way that it completely authentic for him - ie. in a bookish way.
He was probably bookish as a Christian.
So what's the big surprise?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I think he will find the imperatives he's hitherto lived by turn into ropes of sand. There is no code to everyday life, no hidden purpose to be second guessed. It is not about you. Enjoy what you can, endure what you must. Help others because we are all in this together and you may as well.
I agree. What he may also find is that the buck stops here. He'll have to take the ultimate responsibility for his own life and decisions; there won't be any miracles, maybe the odd coincidence, but nothing he can call on to help him out. It's himself or nothing.
And when faced with death or bereavement there will be no answers, no ready-made solution, just the knowledge that whatever happens to anyone at death is completely unknown and irrevocable.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What strikes me is the sense that in 'removing' God he's actually filling the void and actively searching for people, literature, events, etc that are, albeit of an atheistic nature and identity, fulfilling the purpose of church and faith.
His attempt seems to me to be a luxury - he has education, money and choice. And it all seems rather self-indulgent. The literature, the events, the people are all 'highbrow', rarified and academic.
One wonders what an ordinary person would do because this experiment of his is certainly not the kind of thing an office worker, a shop assistant, a fire-fighter, would do.
A more authentic experiment would have been to say 'from today I am an atheist with no God and for him to fill his time going to bars, sports events, garden centres and playing with his family and watching TV.
It seems to me that what he has actually done is replace his former personal God with all the trappings of spirituality and introduce a cerebral god of the mind.
In actual fact he's merely taken on a different god.
I'd better tell my very working-class grandma not to go to any more of the literature festivals she really enjoys and to put down those poetry books, they're clearly not for the likes of her.
The idea that working-class people cannot enjoy 'highbrow' things is incredibly classist and insulting.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I don't see how "Hey, Imma stop going through the motions for a while and make a blog about it!" constitutes as "experiment."
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
A year without God?
What he means is: a year without believing in God.
Not the same thing, of course.
And if (for the sake of argument) the atheist position were true (whatever 'true' is supposed to mean in their philosophy), then everyone would go every year without God. And thus going a year "without God" is merely equivalent to going "without belief in God", because all that is being done is an adjustment in the mind with the concomitant change in practice.
All very muddled, and, frankly, a waste of time. If this bloke is so concerned for truth, then it's simply a matter of assessing all positions objectively, not blocking out one option for any period of time.
Anyone for whom God is a living reality would not want to go even one millisecond without Him. Yeah, I know I may be flirting with the "No True Scotsman", but frankly why would anyone in his right mind want to walk away from the fountain of living waters? I know I'll probably be criticised for saying this, but AFAIAC, this former pastor is already an atheist.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think delivering a 30 minute sermon on the subject "What's the point, really?" to a panel of theologians should be a minimum requirement for ordination in TEC.
Automatic failure for using any of the following terms: apophatic theology, mystery, three-legged stool, via media, liberation theology, feminist theology, or Franciscan spirituality.
I'd allow the term "via media" to be used as it was originally intended; to describe Anglicanism as a midway point between Wittenberg and Geneva.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I'd allow the term "via media" to be used as it was originally intended; to describe Anglicanism as a midway point between Wittenberg and Geneva.
Only use of the terms would constitute failure. Anyone knowing what they mean could of course describe the concepts with other words.
They are all, of course, perfectly legitimate theological conceptsthough all tragically co-opted to disguise incoherent theologies.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
So for the ignorant?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So for the ignorant?
Huh?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
This chap is planning to write a book about his spiritual journey. Sounds like something that'll sell very well to both Christians and atheists, especially if the conclusion manages to be all things to all men.
I do kind of agree with EtymologicalEvangelical though - why would someone who's hungry for more of God want to spend a year without God? It seems counterintuitive. But I maybe this man feels that having lived in a godly bubble more or less all his life and still ended up in mess of confusion he has no option but to enter the lion's den. Maybe God will send an angel to save him.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Any one recall the Seinfeld episode where they had a 'give up masturbation' episode? Just replay that episode replacing God for playing with yourself - or perhaps get slightly more serious about faith and try a year without breathing.
How can anyone reall take this seriously when the protaganist doesn't know the difference between pulling the pud and drowning. Someone has gone blind it seems. 🐧
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
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Posted
quote:
but frankly why would anyone in his right mind want to walk away from the fountain of living waters?
Judging by his experience the fountain of living waters has become a bit of an open sewer for him.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This chap is planning to write a book about his spiritual journey. Sounds like something that'll sell very well to both Christians and atheists, especially if the conclusion manages to be all things to all men.
I do kind of agree with EtymologicalEvangelical though - why would someone who's hungry for more of God want to spend a year without God? It seems counterintuitive. But I maybe this man feels that having lived in a godly bubble more or less all his life and still ended up in mess of confusion he has no option but to enter the lion's den. Maybe God will send an angel to save him.
I suspect that this is what he'd like happen. He's trying to force God's hand into providing convincing proofs of his existence. The sad thing about it is that he's acting like a spoilt adolescent who has vowed to live as if his parents don't exist while taking socks from the magic drawer each morning and pitching up for the food which just happens to appear on the table each night.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A year without God?
What he means is: a year without believing in God.
I'm not sure one can just stop believing in God. Either you think good reasons exist to believe in God, or you don't. If you do, you can't make those good reasons go away by sheer willpower.
What he means rather, I trow, is a year without acting as if he believes in God. Which sadly for many Christians isn't much of a change.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't understand the vitriol from many on this thread. Surely the man is to be pitied? I mean, apart from the book, which will doubtless be a big seller. But to get to that level of dreary despair is dreadful.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't understand the vitriol from many on this thread. Surely the man is to be pitied? I mean, apart from the book, which will doubtless be a big seller. But to get to that level of dreary despair is dreadful.
Oh, I have no doubt that he's throwing away the pearl of great price with this experiment of his. He's definitely greatly to be pitied. Though countless people in our day carry on without God and manage to lead, ostensibly, completely fulfilling lives, so I have to wonder what he's on about.
I'm vitriolizing over his Episcopal priest friend that can't give a coherent account of the Christian faith when prompted. Which, I had thought, was a priest's job.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.
Not sure I understand where you are going with this.
It seems either the rather enlightened view that God is less bothered by people believing in him than the average Christian seems to think.
Or that God is an uncaring, remote deity.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And if (for the sake of argument) the atheist position were true (whatever 'true' is supposed to mean in their philosophy),
Same thing it means in yours or mine.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
then everyone would go every year without God.
Belief should be open to question, this does not mean everyone need turn 180 to test the strength of their belief.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And thus going a year "without God" is merely equivalent to going "without belief in God", because all that is being done is an adjustment in the mind with the concomitant change in practice.
All very muddled, and, frankly, a waste of time. If this bloke is so concerned for truth, then it's simply a matter of assessing all positions objectively, not blocking out one option for any period of time.
Anyone for whom God is a living reality would not want to go even one millisecond without Him. Yeah, I know I may be flirting with the "No True Scotsman", but frankly why would anyone in his right mind want to walk away from the fountain of living waters? I know I'll probably be criticised for saying this, but AFAIAC, this former pastor is already an atheist.
Unshaken, rock solid faith or atheism? These are the only choices?
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh, I have no doubt that he's throwing away the pearl of great price with this experiment of his.
I would say, rather, that he is determining the worth of the pearl.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
This.
It also belies an incredible lack of understanding regarding common grace: the fact that God "causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." For in him we live and move and have our being.
In other words, he isn't trying to do without the God of the bible; he is trying to go without the god of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. In that respect he should do just fine.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure one can just stop believing in God. Either you think good reasons exist to believe in God, or you don't. If you do, you can't make those good reasons go away by sheer willpower.
Agreed.
I don't think a person can believe in God by sheer willpower or disbelieve in God by willpower either.
These things go deeper than conscious decision imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
There is no code to everyday life, no hidden purpose to be second guessed. It is not about you. Enjoy what you can, endure what you must. Help others because we are all in this together and you may as well.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I read a book by another American preacher who became an atheist (by ceasing to believe, not as an 'experiment'). He just continued to preach - but atheism rather than Christianity. He seemed marginally more unpleasant in his new role than the old one.
Just do what Firenze suggests. Call it what you like but do it rather than turning it into a alternative religion.
It's worked for me these last 50 odd years.
Happy New Year.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
So do you add 'if I live that long' to every reference you make to your putative future? Never "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn" always "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn if I live that long".
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Several of my Muslim friends do. They add "Insha'Allah" (God willing) to any future plans.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Ryan Bell is sort of a friend of mine (online, not in real life, though we do share some RL friends -- the Seventh-day Adventist world is a pretty small one) and I've followed everything he's done with interest, particularly his being relieved of his ministry position at Hollywood SDA church. I have my doubts about the value of this experiment, though I'm sure I'll follow along on his blog with interest. I've always found him to be an extremely sincere person and I don't think he would be doing this if he didn't think it would be a valuable experiment somehow.
It does seem to boil down to spending a year living AS IF there were no God, and immersing himself in atheist philosophy, reading and thinking, rather than in Christian philosophy, reading and thinking. I've sometimes seen people who were struggling over whether to believe in God given the advice, "Trying acting as if you believed there were a God -- pray and read your Bible, and faith will grow." And sometimes, for some people, it does -- although I've also seen people describe this as "brainwashing yourself into believing." I'm also reminded of A.J. Jacobs' year-long experiment in The Year of Living Biblically -- while living AS IF he were a very observant Jew for a year didn't actually make Jacobs into one, it did give him greater respect for faith and spirituality in general.
So, I guess Ryan's experiment is sort of the reverse -- will living as if you don't believe lead to the loss of faith, or something else? He's been on quite an interesting journey already, having as a younger person been associated with some of the more extreme conservative edges of the Adventist church (from what I understand of his story, anyway), to being one of the most liberal pastors in North American Adventism, to losing his job. So I will be intrigued to see what he does next, though I wouldn't have expected it to be this.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Several of my Muslim friends do. They add "Insha'Allah" (God willing) to any future plans.
Or as my granny used (continually) to say: if we're spared.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
So do you add 'if I live that long' to every reference you make to your putative future? Never "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn" always "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn if I live that long".
I haven't got a lawn.
But seriously - I do try to be conscious that I'm a privileged individual in a privileged culture, and thoughts about next year, ten years hence or whatever are a luxury that most people in the world don't have.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure one can just stop believing in God. Either you think good reasons exist to believe in God, or you don't. If you do, you can't make those good reasons go away by sheer willpower.
Agreed.
I don't think a person can believe in God by sheer willpower or disbelieve in God by willpower either.
These things go deeper than conscious decision imo.
Careful now. You're sounding a lot like a Calvinist.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
But I think the relevant question here is: does belief or unbelief exist independent of what we DO? Are you more likely to become, and stay, a believer if you immerse yourself in Christian culture -- going to church, practicing spiritual disciplines, surrounding yourself with religious people and reading religious books? Conversely, are you more likely to lose faith if you stop doing all those things and immerse yourself in the conversation and opinions of those who don't believe?
It seems to me pretty self-evident that our practices DO affect our beliefs; presumably Ryan Bell's experiment is meant to test that hypothesis in his own life.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Trudy Scrumptious:
Your comments are the more interesting because of your connection.
To me, it's still far from clear whether what he is doing is right or wrong, good or bad. Maybe that's because I would count SDA-ism as a sort of hot-house religion, and the effect of this will be greater on a religious professional. So I think it is a good idea to get out of that environment, because at the very least, I would expect his life to be different in a more main stream environment. Maybe I'm exaggerating about SDAs and projecting some of my experiences with the JWs.
So, for example, many, if not most, christians would view it as totally normal to read up on atheist literature. If he'd framed his experiment as being desisting from practicing what most would consider an extreme form of christianity, in order to see how much of his faith remains, (now he's not obligated by his immediate society), I would say that's not a bad idea.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
Ah, that's the issue right there.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
[tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And if (for the sake of argument) the atheist position were true (whatever 'true' is supposed to mean in their philosophy),
Same thing it means in yours or mine.
Actually no (well, at least when referring to the philosophy of naturalism, which I guess is what most atheists subscribe to).
This video explains it pretty well.
[/tangent]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
Ah, that's the issue right there.
Why the hell not? Why does God want to be so hard to believe in?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. I think most people expect to be alive this time next year unless they have a specific reason to think that they won't be. Including people outside of the richest countries. Yes, they face different/greater health risks and challenges but they still have a pretty good chance of being alive next year, and would probably be pretty insulted by this idea that nobody but the richest expect to live very long. They may have other reasons for not wanting to do this kind of project, of course.
As for Mudfrog's idea that someone who stops being religious should give up all kinds of cerebral pursuits and just spend their time drinking beer and watching tv - that's beyond patronising. As is the idea that people who work in shops, offices and for emergency services have no interest in intellectual matters. I used to be relgious and read many a weighty tome on religious matters among other things. I am now not religious and read many a weighty tome on - well, all sorts of things. It's what people do. Faith changes, develops, disappears, reappears, springs out of apparently nowhere - but bookish people tend to remain bookish. This guy is clearly the kind of person who likes to read and think things through. There are lots of atheists like that.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
This experiment probably have something to do with him wanting to write a book and sell it. And as it seems from the article, he seems to be in that transitional time between religious/atheist. I donīt agree that you either just believe in God or not. There are various shades of grey in between. Just the fact the he is willing to TRY a year without God already shows that he is leaning more towards to atheism then to his previous religion.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Trudy Scrumptious:
Your comments are the more interesting because of your connection.
To me, it's still far from clear whether what he is doing is right or wrong, good or bad. Maybe that's because I would count SDA-ism as a sort of hot-house religion, and the effect of this will be greater on a religious professional. So I think it is a good idea to get out of that environment, because at the very least, I would expect his life to be different in a more main stream environment. Maybe I'm exaggerating about SDAs and projecting some of my experiences with the JWs.
So, for example, many, if not most, christians would view it as totally normal to read up on atheist literature. If he'd framed his experiment as being desisting from practicing what most would consider an extreme form of christianity, in order to see how much of his faith remains, (now he's not obligated by his immediate society), I would say that's not a bad idea.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
I think the SDA church is probably a little less of a hot-house religion than the JWs, anteater, though there are definitely elements within it that would like it to be MORE of a hot-house religion! I don't think in his previous position as a well-educated, well-read liberal Adventist pastor, Ryan Bell would have found anything unusual about reading atheist books, anymore than I would fine it unusual in my position as a well-read, well-educated liberal Adventist layperson. I think what's different here is his decision to immerse himself in that kind of reading/thinking for a year, without perhaps feeling the need to "balance" it with more Christian perspectives.
And on another note I just want to say I find Karl's last post very poignant. I don't really have anything to say in reply; I know a lot of people feel that way, and I don't know why (a good atheist will be along with their answer soon, I'm sure).
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
'Twas a mere figure of speech.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
When I see comments along these lines, I can't help wondering whether those who think like this imagine that everything we associate with nature and life can somehow operate totally independently of God, and that He is just a kind of "added extra" to give some further dose of peace, joy etc. When there is no or little experience of this putative "added extra", then it is assumed that God is being elusive, or that He even does not exist. However, the basic presupposition is wrong. Nothing can function without God: not reason, nature, morality, well-being, sanity, consciousness etc...
In fact, if God is nothing more than a bolt-on onto the philosophy of naturalism, then I am not surprised that He doesn't show up too often. Popular science can say what it likes about the self-sufficiency of nature, but false thinking blinds the mind... and the spirit.
So God undoubtedly shows up many times in the lives of those who claim He doesn't. They just don't (can't or won't) discern this.
[ 03. January 2014, 16:07: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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