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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'If a thing is worth doing at all, it is worth doing badly' Discuss . . .
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.
I suggest that he thank God that his life is so free of significant concerns that he is in a position to get shirty about ironing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Is God really concerned about such things?
God isn't, no. But people are. How things look seems to be rather important to us for some reason.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Getting shirty about the ironing is one thing, but I suggest that getting your panties in a twist over the laundry is just, well, knicker-wettingly comical.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
When I make a painting, I don't stop working at it until I'm satisfied it's as good a painting as I can make. Why should an act of liturgy make do with less dedication than that?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I often write badly, as I know that if I stop, because of some bizarre sense of perfectionism, I would not be able to write. Anyway, the writing badly begins to improve gradually, until it's tolerable, but without doing it badly I wouldn't be able to do it. I became enamoured of the Zen story of the woman in a butcher's shop who asks for best steak, only for him to reply, it's all the best.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Another example came to mind. I like doing photography, and I quite like impromptu photos, that are not particularly well composed, or with poor lighting, red-eye, and so on. I also do some with just bits of people in them, elbows and stuff. Anyway, that's what I like.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
When I make a painting, I don't stop working at it until I'm satisfied it's as good a painting as I can make. Why should an act of liturgy make do with less dedication than that?
The OP is not about demanding such standards of oneself, it is about flying into a tizzy because others don't reach the same standards.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
There's a balance in all of this.
With anything liturgical - or apparently non-liturgical - we can run the risk of being either too pernickety and anal ... Tat Queens and so on ... or else sloppy and inattentive.
Each is as bad as the other.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
When I make a painting, I don't stop working at it until I'm satisfied it's as good a painting as I can make. Why should an act of liturgy make do with less dedication than that?
The OP is not about demanding such standards of oneself, it is about flying into a tizzy because others don't reach the same standards.
True. And also, there are all sorts of possible backstories here: a person who wasn't very good at ironing, but to whom this little involvement in the church meant the world; a usually good ironer who on that particular day had a family crisis that put them off their stroke (or whatever it is that ironers have); a vicar (though I'm sure it's not the case) who has an erotic obsession with smooth fabrics. But another possible backstory is it was someone who couldn't give a crap, and all I'm suggesting is that if we're doing anything at all for God - including the ironing - then a crap should be rather less than we are willing to give.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's a balance in all of this.
With anything liturgical - or apparently non-liturgical - we can run the risk of being either too pernickety and anal ... Tat Queens and so on ... or else sloppy and inattentive.
Each is as bad as the other.
As a purely academic question, Gamaliel, are you able to post in a thread without trying to hold things in tension? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I don't notice how well the altar linens are ironed. Maybe my altar guild is just really good at ironing altar linens. Some of them still haven't figured out how to assemble the stack correctly and that annoys me. However, the altar guild are all volunteers so I just fix it myself without making a big deal about it. Likewise, if Father is that concerned about the altar linens, he will iron them himself.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.
I read an article which referred to all the minor things that we get concerned about as "First World Problems". We seem to have a need to be worried about something. Once such Developing World problems as having enough to eat and drink, children living beyond four, having a roof over our heads, not getting killed in civil wars etc are resolved, we have to find something else to fret over.
The Guardian (especially the Family Section) is a great paper for examples. My favourite story was a mother worrying about calling her child Ralph. Would the name be pronounced 'Rafe' (posh UK usage) making people think she was a snob? And would the child be bullied? A couple of pages were spent on this (and on the unreasonable difficulty of legally changing a child's name*).
When I hear of such things, or have equally silly worries myself, I mutter "Just a First World problem" and move on.
* She did finally change the name - to "Huxley".
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's a balance in all of this.
With anything liturgical - or apparently non-liturgical - we can run the risk of being either too pernickety and anal ... Tat Queens and so on ... or else sloppy and inattentive.
Each is as bad as the other.
As a purely academic question, Gamaliel, are you able to post in a thread without trying to hold things in tension?
You don't expect him to be all binary do you? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
But what happens to the corporal if the sergeant asks for doing it the other way?
It may be that the proper way to offer the bread and wine is a basket for the bread (and with which to pick up the remaining multiplicity of bread bits) and a basic bottle for the wine, with bibs for those who can't drink tidily.
Tizzies about exact ironing strike me as being in the game for the wrong reasons.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
No, it is physically impossible for me to do otherwise, Arethosemyfeet.
If I stopped trying to hold things in tension I would unravel and end up in a set of spools on the floor.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.
If the guy thinks that's a problem, I'd think twice
about trying to talk to him about a real one.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.
There is a certain personality type for whom "to the best of your ability" doesn't exist as a category.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.
Well, I hope the volunteer will graciously step aside so that the Vicar can do the ironing properly.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Our Altar Guild is thrilled by the effect of permanent-press fair linens. OMG, it is such a labor saver!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
"First world problem," LOVE IT!
My altar guild friend LOVES that work in all its perfect detail. She tells me it's meditative - for me it's a headache.
For me, getting musical notes and timing just right for the desired effect turns me on, my altar guild friend is disinterested in learning music to that level of attention.
So my altar guild friend sings "pretty good" and I iron to a "better than it started" condition; we are both happier (and the church possibly better off) if I sing and she irons.
Get the right people involved in each task if you want "perfection." Or happily put up with whatever they can happily give when you have to use the "wrong" people.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
inordinately
For this thread to get any real traction, we have to know what this actually means.
Otherwise, the only thing we can conclude on the basis of the opening post is that the vicar is a wanker. Its a QED of an opening post, kind of TICTHish.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
She was formerly in a religious community. The ironers are volunteers, who sometimes make mistakes.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Then s/he should DO IT HER/HIS BLOODY SELF!
Does s/he get similarly exercised when s/he's leading in visiting the sick and imprisoned, widows and orphans in their affliction, in washing the feet of the poor?
[ 26. July 2014, 10:41: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But it all matters, doesn't it? You wouldn't tolerate someone being sloppy (that is, doing things to less than the best of their ability) in their visiting the sick etc, so why tolerate people being sloppy- if that is what is happening- in worship and preparing for worship?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I hope the volunteer will graciously step aside so that the Vicar can do the ironing properly.
This.
'Fine, do it yourself then' would be gracious enough imo!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Are there disposable ones? Like paper towels?
Or a laundry service like there is for dress shirts?
Seriously though, so long as things are done with dignity and reasonableness, any form of obsessive-compulsiveness related to this is either sinful or needful of medical attention. I'm reminded of CS Lewis writing about a woman who needed her toast just so, and the food amounts on her plate exact. It is not right to lose the point of things within matters of form.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.
This does not even remotely mirror human psychology.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.
Ah, the Van Halen no brown M&Ms thing. That was a test. If the concert venue had read all the details and produced M&Ms with no brown ones, they could have some confidence that they had also read the details of, for example, the current draw of the amplifiers or the weight of all the stage equipment.
Does "wrongly ironed" mean ironed with the creases in the wrong places (in which case the person is doing it wrong and needs to be shown the correct way) or rumpled and sloppy-looking (in which case either the person is bad at ironing and needs training, or the person doesn't give a crap, which is a problem.)
Has the vicar tried to fix the problem, or does she just get upset and whinge?
[ 26. July 2014, 14:51: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Perhaps she misinterprets imperfection as disrespect?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You see Albertus, the poor know how to be gracious. At Triangle last night there was no meal, no toiletries. Only one guy, with serious issues, objected to my telling him to use salt to clean his teeth. The Bulgarian woman soldier, just thrown on the street with her 22 year old multiply injured son from the Dawn Centre (Leicester's council homeless shelter, who say that there are about 5 homeless people in Leicester ... because a doorway is home) was beautifully gracious about it all. I could have wept. My new friend Kevin, a lovely man, victim of Salvation Army gangsters, he was sublimely gracious. So some arse concerned with the linen for some sacred rite that is EVER SO important, MORE important than anything real to most Christians, needs a week on the street.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
More than one thing can be important at one time, Martin. Visiting (etc.) the poor and sick and doing worship well (decently and in order, one might say) can both be important. To suggest that they can't is really just an inversion of the small-mindedness you appear to be arguing against.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some things are ironed in a particular way for a good reason, e.g. the corporal is ironed in such a way as to prevent crumbs escaping.
If it isn't ironed properly it isn't worth using it at all.
To return to this - if you had a bag containing gold dust, you wouldn't turn it inside out, let alone shake it up in the air - yer these things get done to corporals containing something far more precious.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What, like people, with no food, no roof, in England. Unimportant things like that? Things Jesus isn't concerned about compared with His breakfast table?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
When Jesus said to His disciples "Do this ...." - do you think He was breaking bread over a tablecloth? Do you really think, Leo, that He was concerned about the crumbs falling when He broke the bread?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As in other things, I quite like the Orthodox approach on this sort of thing.
I once attended an 'open day' thing at Fr Gregory's parish (remember him?) which was attended by a small number of people but from across a wide spectrum.
At the end, Fr Gregory was showing a group from the Nazarene College in Didsbury and myself what he does in consecrating the bread and wine for the Eucharist.
He demonstrated how - at the point where the priest invokes the Holy Spirit through the 'epiclesis' - calling for the Holy Spirit to make the elements into the Body and Blood of Christ - they shake the special napkin/cloth thing (which had a fancy Greek name, of course) as if to emulate the descent of the Spirit. They sort of waft it around.
Once he'd finished, he set it aside and said, 'Of course, originally it was just to keep the flies off ...'
I like that. A good combination of the sacred and the mundane.
Of course the needs of the homeless and so on and more important than what we get up to in our rituals and services.
But it's surely another both/and thing. I'm no more impressed by liturgical sloppiness than I am by a kind of spiky and over-attention to liturgical detail.
I'm more impressed, though, with those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, visit orphans and widows in their distress ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So there's a moral equivalence in Heaven between the ironing of linen on The Table of The Presence and our helpless privilege turning away from the face of the poor, Jon in the Nati?
Bollocks. I mean utter, fucking bollocks. I know I should be sublimely acceptant of this obscenity, but FUCK it.
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Love wins
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
I like you better when you're angry, Martin. It adds a... clarity to your posts that isn't usually present.
Of course, what you said is not what I said. You said we oughtn't to worry about worship and such things because some folk are poor. I said we ought to think that both things are important. And I do think both are important. If that is so repugnant to you, well, I'm quite sorry.
[ 27. July 2014, 00:00: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As in other things, I quite like the Orthodox approach on this sort of thing.
I'm surprised Gamaliel - surely it's both the Orthodox AND the Anglican but perhaps the Baptist?
My you're becoming very prescriptive aren't you? (laughs)
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The corporals sometimes get ironed with the hems on the wrong side. The Vicar tuts, puts them on one side, and makes some comment like 'I'll have to do it myself'. The trouble is, she tends to do most things (that could be done by others) herself.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jon. Pace. I do apologise for my clarity. None was intended. In analogy with the hypostatic union I'm sure both are 100% important. And we must remain helplessly privileged.
[ 27. July 2014, 09:06: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The corporals sometimes get ironed with the hems on the wrong side. The Vicar tuts, puts them on one side, and makes some comment like 'I'll have to do it myself'. The trouble is, she tends to do most things (that could be done by others) herself.
And here, IMO, we have a window into a large part of the reason why so much of the body of Christ is struggling. Because it's not really acting as a body; a small part of it is acting as provider of services (pun not intended but, hey, it kinda works) for the rest of us to consume.
If it's so important for things to be ironed 'just so' then the minister needs to communicate that need and mentor others who also view it as an important matter. Just like musicians need to coach and mentor others in developing their musical skills, evangelists need to encourage and nurture those who feel a calling to that ministry, etc. etc.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I like the Baptist way of doing other things, ExclamationMark, so there's a both/and thing going on throughout ...
Or perhaps, as you've introduced three elements, Orthodox, Anglican and Baptist, it should be both/and/and ...
Whether it was Orthodox or RC, Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal or anything else, the incident I cited was, of course, simply to illustrate that we can have as 'high as a kite' an approach (or the opposite) as we like, as long as we keep things in perspective.
I suspect, in the instance of the vicar and the ironing from the OP, a sense of perspective had been lost to a certain extent.
However, we don't know enough about said vicar to form a judgement as to how they behave the rest of the time.
As with anything else, we'd have to look at the whole picture and also be aware of the planks in our own eyes ...
I've got plenty in mine.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The corporals sometimes get ironed with the hems on the wrong side. The Vicar tuts, puts them on one side, and makes some comment like 'I'll have to do it myself'. The trouble is, she tends to do most things (that could be done by others) herself.
I agree with SCK. This is a training issue. The people doing the ironing don't know that it matters. They need to be taught the correct way.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why does it matter? To whom? Do these people need teaching how to love the poor? A church full of millionaire businessmen, consultants, surgeons, the leader of the County Council, do they need to be taught to provide toothpaste and a meal and accommodation for the poor more or less?
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That concern was to make a point. It's got NOTHING to do with our rituals. Glad to hear it that you can't be a Christian in empty ritual only.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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