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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mary the back door?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I didn't hear the beginning of the Archbishop of Westminster's 'thought for the day' this morning on Radio 2, but what I heard has disturbed me.
After a list of titles given to Mary - Star of the Sea, etc, - the aforementioned Archbishop Nichol told a 'whimsical' story about St Peter and Jesus walking through Heaven whereupon they came across a group of 'lowlifes'. Jesus remarked 'How did they get in here!?' To which Peter, the keeper of the gate, said 'They sneaked in by the back door.'
Jesus then asked, 'who is on duty on the back door??'
'Your mother', replied Peter.
Now this is just a silly story but the Archbishop thanked God, before millions of R2 listeners that this was true: Mary is indeed the back door into Heaven and that all those whom Jesus would have excluded have been 'smuggled-in' by his Mother, who evidently has more grace.
Please, please tell me the Archbishop was wrong!
Or else pass me a pen and I'll go through the bible and scribble out verses about Jesus being the only way to the Father and Jesus being the only name given under heaven by which we can be saved.
Actually, I'm really offended that this man would suggest that the grace of Jesus is somewhow deficient!!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm not going to try and defend statements I've not heard. But, maybe there's a serious point somewhere we can all agree on.
Peter, and the other disciples, are recorded in the Gospels as trying to exclude people from Jesus. And, Jesus calls the people they would exclude anyway. In many ways we're no better than the first disciples, trying to make judgements about who can come to Jesus. We're guarding the gates of Heaven and turning people away. For an awful lot of people when asked why they don't believe their first answer would be something about the Church - their probably mistaken, but we are keeping them from the gates of Heaven.
I would probably agree with the reported statement by the Archbishop that there's a "back door to Heaven" by which the riff-raff the church excludes sneak in. Where I disagree is with who is guiding people to that gate. I would say that it's Christ Himself who guides people in to heaven, despite the actions of the church.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Yes indeed; I too am all for the back door.
If grace is the front door, then mercy is the back door.
But it's all of Christ and never done without his knowledge or against his will.
And actually, it's better to come through grace than presume on mercy.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Yes, I have to say that the only problem I have with the anecdote as related is the part where Jesus is the one getting upset about it. Reverse the roles played by Peter and Jesus and I'd find it completely unproblematic.
(To the extent that I'm wondering if you may have misheard which character was saying which line?)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
No, it was definitely Jesus who questioned the presence of the lowlifes and Peter who said 'your mother' to the question, 'who let the in'?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: If grace is the front door, then mercy is the back door.
What exactly is the difference between grace and mercy?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Pause For Thought with Vincent Nichols, and he definitely has the joke as reported - it's Jesus who's offended by the people his mum has let in.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
yes - it's also anither take on the king/queen archetypes from Tarot, which crop up time and time again in spiritual matters. The king sits in judgement with clarity/discernment/discrimination and will chop off someone's head if that is the correct judgement. The queen loves and embraces everyone and wishes them all to return back to the family. Clarity/Love.
Interestingly, if you know anything about Chinese medicine and the meridien/5 element system, it's the heart and small intestine (both of which are fire organs).
I think Jesus transcended these archetypes and is both king and queen. So I would guess it was Peter getting uptight.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pause For Thought with Vincent Nichols, and he definitely has the joke as reported - it's Jesus who's offended by the people his mum has let in.
Well then, that's just freakin' wrong.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: If grace is the front door, then mercy is the back door.
What exactly is the difference between grace and mercy?
Grace is where you are treated as you not deserve.
Mercy is where you are are not treated as you do deserve.
i.e. grace is the gift of eternal life to the non-deserving sinner
mercy is the witholding of judgment from the sinner who deserves condemnation.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: Grace is where you are treated as you not deserve.
Mercy is where you are are not treated as you do deserve.
i.e. grace is the gift of eternal life to the non-deserving sinner
mercy is the witholding of judgment from the sinner who deserves condemnation.
They still look the same to me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
positive and negative of the same experience, I guess.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Mercy and Grace: both sides of the same (glorious) coin.
I'm very glad I don't listen to R2 I would have been throwing things (anathema’s for a start ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ) at the wireless.
Is there anything positive that can be said about this anecdote? ISTM right up (down more likely) there with modalistic baptismal formulae etc
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JJ
SDG
blog
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I would say that it's Christ Himself who guides people in to heaven, despite the actions of the church.
And it's the church that gets in by the back door - Jesus said the publicans and harlots got in before the religious people.
I've heard the joke before but it was Jesus letting people in via the back door, not Our Lady.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I liked the bit when he said "we can turn to her in any mess we create". I wonder if he had anyone specific in mind? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I would say that it's Christ Himself who guides people in to heaven, despite the actions of the church.
And it's the church that gets in by the back door - Jesus said the publicans and harlots got in before the religious people.
I've heard the joke before but it was Jesus letting people in via the back door, not Our Lady.
Who was the other person in that version of the joke?
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JJ
SDG
blog
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are a variety of jokes with Peter and Jesus walking in heaven, and Peter declaring "how did that lot get in? I turned them away this morning". Jesus responds in someway to the effect of "I let them in".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Another version I heard was a newly-admitted man being given a guided tour and upon encountering a high wall asked, 'Who's behind that wall?' to be told 'Oh that's the Catholics, they think they're the only ones here.'
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Also works with Baptists, Presbyterians and basically anyone else.
More radical, "Who's behind that wall", "Oh, it's Fred Phelps ... we don't want everyone to know he got in despite everything".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There are a variety of jokes with Peter and Jesus walking in heaven, and Peter declaring "how did that lot get in? I turned them away this morning". Jesus responds in someway to the effect of "I let them in".
Not very good management to give an employee a role, give him the tools, the training, the authority and the procedure, to then go behind his back and do the job a different way. Talk about disrespecting and undermining the employee.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Next thin you know He'll be paying the folks He employed an hour ago the same as those who've been working all day.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Next thin you know He'll be paying the folks He employed an hour ago the same as those who've been working all day.
touche
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
...but at least he told us back then what he's going to do.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Also works with Baptists, Presbyterians and basically anyone else.
More radical, "Who's behind that wall", "Oh, it's Fred Phelps ... we don't want everyone to know he got in despite everything".
I tend to the view that eternity is much the same whether you saved or damned. It's the company that makes it Heavenly or Hellish.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Also works with Baptists, Presbyterians and basically anyone else.
More radical, "Who's behind that wall", "Oh, it's Fred Phelps ... we don't want everyone to know he got in despite everything".
I tend to the view that eternity is much the same whether you saved or damned. It's the company that makes it Heavenly or Hellish.
Well yes indeed - 'Now the dwelling of God is with men' is Heaven. To be with Jesus and see him as he is - that's the place to be.
Hell is where God is not.
quote:
Where God is not! O aweful thought,
A realm deserted, cast aside,
With sin to full fruition brought
and evil crowned and deified.
Where dread remorse and vain desire
burn like an unconsuming fire.
[ 30. September 2014, 12:16: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: Hell is where God is not.
He's everywhere.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Hell is where God is not.
He's everywhere.
He's everywhere else.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Hell is where God is not.
He's everywhere.
He's everywhere else.
If the Glory can depart the Temple, he can surely depart from the lives of men.
It's what Jesus experienced on the cross.
Hell is the unredeemed's eternal cry of dereliction.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: It's what Jesus experienced on the cross.
And that's why God will never abandon anyone again. He knows what it's like.
[ 30. September 2014, 12:53: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
All of which just brings us back to the problem of Hell -- how people can be eternally alive in a place and state "where God is not," and what kind of God would keep them that way. But that's a bit off topic for the OP (in which, I agree, the anecdote is ridiculous -- as is anything that suggests anyone is better at showing us grace and mercy than Jesus is).
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pause For Thought with Vincent Nichols, and he definitely has the joke as reported - it's Jesus who's offended by the people his mum has let in.
Notably, in the joke as it was actually told on the radio there is not indication that Jesus is angry about the "unsavoury characters" having been let in.
RCs consider Mary to be the Queen of Heaven, a role patterned after Jewish kings, for whom their mother, not one of their many wives, was the queen (Jeremiah 13:18, 1 Kings 2:19). One key role of this queen-mother is to bring intercessions to the king from those who fear being rejected, compare 1 Kings 2:20 and the Wedding Feast of Cana. The actual power, the decision and its execution remain in the hands of the king though. The mother of the king is simply expected to have his ear, that is her power.
In consequence, Mary has always been considered as the foremost saint to pray to for intercession. The Protestant reluctance about anything but a direct line to Jesus is alien to Catholic thought. We do not see this role of Mary as taking away from Christ's grace and mercy, as if they were in competition with each other about the souls that seek help. Rather, we see Mary as an instrument of Christ's mercy and grace. God has always worked through people, but in the Incarnation this does not get abandoned but highlighted. Christ did not just touch down on earth as an isolated human being. He entered the whole framework of human relationships. It is of course not fundamentally necessary for God to listen to His mother for pointers on whom to forgive. God has no need for her. God has no need for any of us, or indeed for anything. But God has chosen to create, He has made human beings, and He has become one of us. And He remains one of us. So he remains in the network of family and friendship that every human has (or should have...). Yes, God has a mum and like every good Son He will listen to what she has to say - but it is so by His own power and His own choice, and the decision and reign remain His.
It is perhaps important to note that the same considerations that apply to direct intercessory prayer apply to praying to Mary for intercession. Does God need you telling Him about your needs and wishes? Not in the sense that would not know of this otherwise. But that is not to say that intercessory prayer is useless. God appreciates precisely the human act of actively seeking help. The asking itself is what is important, not the information flow (of which God has no need). Likewise, Mary as an intercessory is not expected to tell God anything that He doesn't know, or to make up His mind for Him. The information flow is not needed in an absolute sense. Rather, it is our act of seeking her out to gain His grace that God values.
All this said, the question will still be "why not talk to Christ directly?" Well, I believe that there is psychological wisdom in the Catholic (in my opinion, God-given) approach of keeping all the typical human communication channels to the Incarnate God open, including those through His friends and family, and not reduce everything to a direct one-on-one. In particular, I believe that the hippiefication of Christ, the rise of the painfully kitsch softie that we see in many pictures and hear about in many sermons, derives to a large extent from rolling the mother figure of Mary into Christ, instead of considering her as an instrumental means of realising the "feminine" aspect of God through the Incarnation and the human relationships that brought about.
So, for Protestants my point is roughly this: look at Christ in the bible, how the Prophet, Priest and King is actually displayed there. Then look at what people make of Him in their prayers, due to their psychological needs that will come to the fore when they feel vulnerable. And then ask yourself whether it is not preferable if people occasionally can find their way to God through the "detour" Mary, that allows them to shed their psychological difficulties and anxieties - leaving those at the feet of Mary - so that their call to God arrives purified by her agency.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pause For Thought with Vincent Nichols, and he definitely has the joke as reported - it's Jesus who's offended by the people his mum has let in.
Well then, that's just freakin' wrong.
The only way I could make moral sense of it is to suppose a Jesus who has delegated the role of showing mercy to Mary. He has declared that these "low-lifes" are damned, not so that they should go to Hell, but so that she should have the honour of saving them.
Which is not the Jesus of the Bible, nor of any orthodox Christianity I'm aware of, but I think it does at least allude to some truth about salvation, which is that we human beings can (by God's grace) help each other to salvation, and that in Heaven we will in some way participate in God's goodness. The story fails in that it suggests that Mary's role is to supply a remedy for Jesus's deficiency, rather than that she distributes grace because Jesus is so abundantly gracious that he wants to share that quality with her.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Which is not the Jesus of the Bible, nor of any orthodox Christianity I'm aware of, but I think it does at least allude to some truth about salvation, which is that we human beings can (by God's grace) help each other to salvation, and that in Heaven we will in some way participate in God's goodness. The story fails in that it suggests that Mary's role is to supply a remedy for Jesus's deficiency, rather than that she distributes grace because Jesus is so abundantly gracious that he wants to share that quality with her.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
First, it's a freaking joke, OK? It's supposed to be funny (or at least mildly amusing...), not doctrinally pure.
Second, have you listened to the actual joke being told? There is not talk there about people who were pseudo-damned by Christ or anything like that. In fact, if one seriously wanted to orthodoxify this, one could consider the whole thing as an attempt of Jesus to teach St Peter a lesson. (Though of course, St Peter wouldn't have to learn this by the Socratic method, since he would have the beatific vision in heaven. Neither is he actually a selection guard at the pearly gates. Etc. If one starts taking this joke too seriously, it stops making sense long before we get to the punchline.)
The actual message beneath the fun of the joke is roughly this: Yes, there are all these rules and demands on you that come with the highest authority (St Peter guarding the front door to heaven, as a figure of the stern holiness of God and the doctrine and discipline of the official Church). But don't despair if you fail living up to them, you may sneak into heaven anyway (Mary opening the backdoor of heaven, as a figure of the loving mercy of God and the pastoral and healing work of the Church). The joke actually strikes a fairly good balance between delivering a message of hope and encouraging presumption. It does not say that all ways into heaven are equal (front door vs. backdoor) and it does not say that Mary will let everybody in (just more than St Peter). But it does tell you that St Peter's word is not the last word.
It's a good Catholic joke.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
a "back door to Heaven" by which the riff-raff the church excludes sneak in.
Nope it's the front door and they are welcomed in. No one "sneaks" into heaven.
The statement is as offensive in my eyes for "sneak" as it is in its references to Mary.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]It's a good Catholic joke.
Then it looks like the Catholic sense of humour is rather particular and unique ... and not one which is designed to be shared.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Gosh, I'd forgotten how fun annoying Protestants is.
The joke about xyz group thinking they're the only ones in Heaven was always told to me with evangelicals as the group - for Catholics it's just a part of doctrine, but evangelicals actually believe it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Oh, for goodness sakes.
Are there really posters on this board who genuinely think that the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster seriously believes that our Lady is some kind of celestial people trafficker who smuggles sinners into heaven without God Almighty knowing about it?
[x-post]
[ 30. September 2014, 15:40: Message edited by: Gildas ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Oh, for goodness sakes.
Are there really posters on this board who genuinely think that the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster seriously believes that our Lady is some kind of celestial people trafficker who smuggles sinners into heaven without God Almighty knowing about it?
[x-post]
Well obviously. He's the representative for the Scarlet Woman after all.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]It's a good Catholic joke.
Then it looks like the Catholic sense of humour is rather particular and unique ... and not one which is designed to be shared.
Not designed to be shared with those who practice knee-jerk anti-Catholicism, perhaps. The rest of us were just about able to make sense of it without having it explained.
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
What's all this about front doors and backdoors? In my copy of scripture there are twelve doors:
Revelation 21: 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
I agree with Mudfrog, Nichol's was spouting a load of dangerously misleading whimsical rubbish, as in cxxx!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I understand that Thought for the Day is meant to be some sort of uplifting few words given by a person of faith. That 'faith' is not necessarily Christianity,but the person of faith can come from the Jewish,Moslem,Ba'hai,Hindu ,Buddhist or indeed other faiths.
Fair enough if some people cannot find comfort in what a Catholic bishop has to say,but do they object to what the Jewish rabbi says or what the Moslem imam says ? Would they start a thread if a rabbi said something which might strike a chord
more specifically with someone of the Jewish faith ?
Aren't there at least as many Catholics as Jews who listen to Thought for the Day.
Not all of them will however listen,nor will they all have to appreciate what the cardinal said.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Look, even I, who am a fairly proddy sort of prod, can see that this was meant to be amusing - and IMHO succeeded. So an Archbishop can't say anything that might be funny or a bit quizzical? Not, of course, like Rabbi Lionel Blue, or even St Paul, see Gal 5:11-12.
[ 30. September 2014, 18:24: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eliab
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# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
First, it's a freaking joke, OK? It's supposed to be funny (or at least mildly amusing...), not doctrinally pure.
Of course I can see that it's a joke. I didn't think, though, that Mudfrog's OP was intended to discuss its merit as a joke but about what the story is purporting to say about Jesus and Mary and salvation.
It seems to me that it says (or, if you prefer, the joke depends on the assumption that...) Mary has a role in salvation, and that she is more gracious and merciful in fulfilling that role than "the rules" would appear to suggest that a legalistic-Jesus might be. I'm fine with that. I don't know exactly how that translates into proper theology, but there's something in that which is both good and true. Mary does show us something about how much good God can do through one person who loves and obeys him. Does she literally pray people into Heaven who might otherwise be lost? I don't know. But I like the picture. "God saves because of Mary" is certainly true in some sense.
It also says (or, perhaps, proposes as an ironic hypothesis) that Mary is more concerned to let people into Heaven than Jesus is. That's just plain false. That doesn't point to anything good and true. And, in my opinion at least, so long as you know that (and I'm perfectly sure the Archbishop does know that) then its quite safe to enjoy the joke.
If we're discussing the image and the story in relation to what we believe is actually true, pointing out where the story diverges from the faith is in order, surely? That's not a criticism of the joke as a joke, or the Archbishop as a teacher of the faith.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
It also says (or, perhaps, proposes as an ironic hypothesis) that Mary is more concerned to let people into Heaven than Jesus is.
Except that it doesn't! It does say that the BVM is more concerned than St Peter about letting people into heaven. That is also untrue, presumably, but apparently not something anybody cares about deeply here. But the joke itself, at least as told by the Archbishop, leaves open where Jesus stands with regards to all this. It could be that Jesus' intention is to reprimand St Peter for letting the riffraff in. It could be that Jesus is trying to lead St Peter to some kind of realisation about the necessity for a "backdoor". Or it could be, and is so, that this is just a bloody joke assuming background knowledge, and was never intended to be understood at this level of theological scrutiny.
Here's another good Catholic joke. Let's see what all you terribly concerned people make of that one...
A crowd is about to stone a young woman to death whom they believe to be an adulteress. To diffuse the situation, Jesus says: “Whoever is without sin among you, be the first to throw a stone at her.” At His words, an old lady at the back of the crowd picks up a large rock, throws it hard and scores a perfect hit on the woman, breaking her skull and killing her instantly. Jesus frowns and looks over to the old lady: “You know, Mother, sometimes you really piss me off!”
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
A crowd is about to stone a young woman to death whom they believe to be an adulteress. To diffuse the situation, Jesus says: “Whoever is without sin among you, be the first to throw a stone at her.” At His words, an old lady at the back of the crowd picks up a large rock, throws it hard and scores a perfect hit on the woman, breaking her skull and killing her instantly. Jesus frowns and looks over to the old lady: “You know, Mother, sometimes you really piss me off!”
I'm not entirely sure why you've told a joke which basically makes the point of pretty much exactly why the vast majority of Protestants don't believe anyone apart from the Son of God was sinless...
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
A crowd is about to stone a young woman to death whom they believe to be an adulteress. To diffuse the situation, Jesus says: “Whoever is without sin among you, be the first to throw a stone at her.” At His words, an old lady at the back of the crowd picks up a large rock, throws it hard and scores a perfect hit on the woman, breaking her skull and killing her instantly. Jesus frowns and looks over to the old lady: “You know, Mother, sometimes you really piss me off!”
I'm not entirely sure why you've told a joke which basically makes the point of pretty much exactly why the vast majority of Protestants don't believe anyone apart from the Son of God was sinless...
Except that it does nothing of the kind. It's just a funny joke playing on the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Whether you believe the doctrine or not it's funny.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: But the joke itself, at least as told by the Archbishop, leaves open where Jesus stands with regards to all this.
I don't think the joke is very funny unless Jesus is at least a bit pissed off over the actions of His mother.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Except that it does nothing of the kind. It's just a funny joke playing on the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Whether you believe the doctrine or not it's funny.
Whether something is funny or not is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, and I just find such a joke chronically sad and the poor (and in fact, un-Catholic) theology makes me cringe. Jokes like that which contain really bad explanations of the theology of the Immaculate Conception (the views held in that joke, like the views of most of the views of 90% of Catholic pew-sitters differ quite sharply from Catholic teaching on the subject) frequently make Catholic/Protestant relations incredibly strained. If you want to sort out Catholic/Protestant relations, starting by the church having a better programme of catechesis and teaching the Catholic faith properly would be a damn good start, and jokes like both of those in this thread hinder such progress.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It does.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I heard a joke long ago that went like this:
A young Israeli soldier who died in the Six Day War showed up at the pearly gates. St. Peter shook his head and said that since the man didn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah, Peter could not let him into Heaven. The young soul was at loose ends and started wandering along outside the high walls.
"Hey!" He heard a voice come from a window high above him, and a rope snaked down from the window. "Come on- climb up the rope!"
So the soldier climbed up the rope and found himself in a workshop with an old guy grinning in glee.
"Um, what am I supposed to now?"
The old man showed him to the door onto the streets of Heaven. "Walk around- enjoy!enjoy!"
So he did. Unfortunately Murphy's Law seemed to apply in Heaven as well as earth, and he bumped into St. Peter.
Peter did a double-take and said, "Hey, wait a minute. Didn't I turn you away a while ago? How did you get in? Tell the truth!"
And the young man hung his head and explained about the old man in the window. Peter didn't even stop to hear where the young man had gotten in. Peter knew.
He stormed down the street and into the old man's room.
"Joseph, you had your last warning! That was one time too many. Now get packing. You are banished from Heaven."
"Well, alright, if you insist. But the wife and the kid come with me."
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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