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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz: 17th Century Mexican Nun
Curiosity killed ...

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Yesterday I saw the Helen Edmundson's 2010 play Heresy of Love at Shakespeare's Globe, which is based on the life of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz. Even if I had had the cash to buy a programme at the time* I would still be wondering about this story and suspect there are some people on the Ship who know more than I have managed to glean about her and the history of the time. Or can read Spanish and have access to more information.

Baldly, Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz (12 November 1651 - 17 April 1695) was the illegitimate daughter of a sea captain who managed to learn Latin, Greek, Spanish, mathematics, science and a whole lot more. She wrote poetry and plays, very little of which survives, but what does is recognised as of a very high standard. She spent time at the court of the Viceroy and Vicereine of Mexico (New Spain) before becoming a nun (shown in the play, but given different names, which is another source of confusion). She chose to go into a convent so she could continue to study and write.

She came up against the Catholic church and stopped writing, which may or may not have followed intervention by the church. The play showed her as a pawn in the machinations of the Bishop of Pueblo, power-broking to become the Archbishop of Mexico. In the play the nunnery was threatened with the inquisition as part of the disapproval of Sor Juana's activities, as another house had been, and she was forced to confess and renounce writing. Although her failure to protect her niece was given as a reason for her compliance in the play. The auto de fe was mentioned as an improving entertainment as the Archbishop banned plays. The Bishop of Mexico was portrayed as a gentle man trying to follow the church and support the line of the Archbishop.

I came out with a whole series of questions:

How special was Sor Juana and should we know more about her? I hadn't consciously paid attention to her before seeing the play.

How likely were political power plays in the Spanish Catholic church at the time? Was the characterisation of the archbishop and bishops likely or borne out in history?

The Mexico Inquisition officially ran from 1571 to 1820. According to the play and Wikipedia, Indian Mexicans were disproportionately affected. How much did this affect Mexico? Is this prejudice continuing?

* The Globe produces programmes with lots of historical information around their productions, usually on sale for cash from the stewards, but sometimes also available in the shop. I am back there next weekend and will try to buy the programme for this play, but I've tried to ask questions I suspect won't be answered in the programme.

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

The Mexico Inquisition officially ran from 1571 to 1820. According to the play and Wikipedia, Indian Mexicans were disproportionately affected. How much did this affect Mexico? Is this prejudice continuing?

When Mexico gained its Independence in 1820 there was a major anti clerical reaction and for more than 100 years after the conflict between anti-clerical liberals and pro Catholic Church conservatives was one of the driving factors in Mexican history for over 100 years to follow. A series of coups and civil wars between the liberals and conservatives dominated Mexican history until a liberal victory in 1867. The leaders of both sides were overwhelmingly from the wealthy white elite, the most noteable exception was liberal President Benito Juarez (1859-64, 1867-72) who was a 'full blooded' Zapotec.

There was then a successful revolt against the government in 1876 led by Porfirio Diaz, also a liberal. Diaz then became the effective dictator of Mexico until 1911. Although nominally a liberal, Diaz was a pragmatist who allowed anti-clerical laws to become a dead letter and the Catholic church regrew in strength.

Diaz was overthrown in 1911 during the Mexican Revolution of 1910-20 resulted in strongly anti-clerical governments coming to power. They formed the National Revolutionary Party in 1929, later renamed the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI). The PRI then held power continuously until 2000.

The conservative reaction to this was to launch the Cristero revolt in 1926. This lasted until 1929. After the failure of the revolt some conservatives formed the pro-catholic National Action Party (PAN) in 1939. This eventually won the Presidency in 2000 and again in 2006.

Today the main three parties in Mexico are the governing PRI, the PAN and the Party of the Democratic Revolution (PDR) which is a left wing breakaway from the PRI. So to this day the main parties in Mexico have their origins in conflicts over the power and role of the Catholic Church in Mexico.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How special was Sor Juana and should we know more about her? I hadn't consciously paid attention to her before seeing the play.

How likely were political power plays in the Spanish Catholic church at the time? Was the characterisation of the archbishop and bishops likely or borne out in history?

I have a book of The Golden Age of Spanish Poetry (that is, 1476-1696) in translation. That is eight poets, of which Juana de la Cruz is the only woman. If you picked eight comparable English poets from the period you'd get Wyatt, Sidney, Spenser, Shakespeare, Donne, Jonson, Herbert, Marvell. So she's at about that level.

Of the other Spanish poets in the book, three (Luis de Leon, Quevedo, San Juan de la Cruz) were imprisoned as the result of religious or political controversies.

The brief biography of Sor Juana in the book says that she was asked by the Bishop of Pueblo to write on his behalf in an ecclesiastic controversy, and then to respond to criticisms that he wrote of her under a pseudonym, Sor Filotea. (Presumably if the bishop criticises you under a pseudonym that means it's not an official reprimand and he doesn't mind you answering him back.) It then says that she stopped studying perhaps as a consequence of having made enemies within the church, but it appears this is not certain.
Other bishops or archbishops are not mentioned.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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mousethief

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What a fascinating person! I'd love to learn more about her.

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Curiosity killed ...

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According to Wikipedia, Sor Juana was supported by one of the Archbishops of Mexico, Paya Enríquez de Rivera*, who became Viceroy for a few years before his death. The play showed the Bishop of Puebla hoping and failing to succeed him as Archbishop of Mexico and using Sor Juana as a pawn in that exchange for his own political ends.

The Archbishop of Mexico from 1682 to 1698 was Francisco de Aguiar y Seijas y Ulloa and his period of office covers the period when the dispute between the Bishop of Puebla over her criticism of a previously published sermon and his response as Sor Philotea in 1690, Sor Juana's cessation of writing in 1693, her signed confession in 1694 and her death in 1695. (This was all covered in the play.)

* tiny url as the Wikipedia link has accents that this bb code doesn't like.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Curiosity posts:
quote:
How likely were political power plays in the Spanish Catholic church at the time? Was the characterisation of the archbishop and bishops likely or borne out in history?
Your questions won't take long to answer. It's 100% certain that there were power plays-- I recall reading of vicious decade-long tussles between chapters and vicars general (the shifting privileges of the canons of Mexico City was the topic of a doctoral thesis which a friend of mine is trying to edit into a readable book)

While Pope Paul III declared that the Indians were the equal of white men, prejudice against those of Indian ancestry seems to be fairly strong. My Mexican friends comment on this frequently-- indeed, my yoga teacher tells me that in her home country her former employer told her that her Indio features were too strong to get the better customers.

Sor Juana is an interesting figure and rates much more knowledge of her work than is the case in the English-speaking world. Still, she's on the 200 peso note, and Octavio Paz did a book on her. I have a study of her poetry (which I bought as it was a face a face bilingual edition) in my pile of things to be read, so I suppose I should excavate it and get to work.

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Soror Magna
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I have a 1,000 peso bill with her on the front, so she's important enough to have made it through several currency changes.

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Martin60
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I was just about to write 'What a fascinating woman.', when I saw mousethief's comment. So I won't.

[ 06. September 2015, 16:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I have a 1,000 peso bill with her on the front, so she's important enough to have made it through several currency changes.

This is the
200 peso note. I like the thousand better.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Curiosity killed ...: The Mexico Inquisition officially ran from 1571 to 1820. According to the play and Wikipedia, Indian Mexicans were disproportionately affected. How much did this affect Mexico? Is this prejudice continuing?
I know more about Central American countries than about Mexico, but I can confirm that prejudice against the indigenous population is continuing there. I'm sure that the Inquisition had a role in this, although I think this was one among other factors.

ETA: I agree with mousethief and Martin60.

[ 07. September 2015, 07:28: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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Gee D
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We use the Episcopal Church online calendar but I can't quickly find a reference to her in that (there does not seem any way of searching, and there's no note of her on 17 April. However, in many other entries for Central and South America, James Kiefer notes the generally strong support given by the Catholic Church to the indigenous populations of the Spanish colonies there, and refers to the Church's attempts to secure them equal rights.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Gee D: However, in many other entries for Central and South America, James Kiefer notes the generally strong support given by the Catholic Church to the indigenous populations of the Spanish colonies there, and refers to the Church's attempts to secure them equal rights.
Yes I agree with this, and there are also some good examples of this in Brazil. I'd also like to stress that in the present day, in many places the RCC is a strong partner of indigenous populations in defending their rights.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Curiosity killed ...

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Gee D - she's not a saint, the RC church doesn't seem to acknowledge her at all. She is mostly recognised in Mexico as an icon of Mexican identity and as an early, if not the first, feminist from her writings.

The play portrayed her views of faith being both agreed and contested within the RC church of the time - similar to this argument. All the references I can find suggest she was an influential catholic thinker. Which is why I thought she might be an interesting person to discuss on the Ship.

The RC church initially supported her under one Archbishop of Mexico, but that changed under a different Archbishop of Mexico. The play showed this as a change in emphasis in religious thinking, which was another thing I didn't know enough about to place properly in context.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Curiosity killed ...: Gee D - she's not a saint, the RC church doesn't seem to acknowledge her at all. She is mostly recognised in Mexico as an icon of Mexican identity and as an early, if not the first, feminist from her writings.
Latin Americans have a tendency to sanctify people without waiting for official confirmation from the Vatican [Smile] I've heard the late Archbishop of El Salvador being referred to as San Romero more than once, and I wouldn't be surprised if something similar also happened with Sor Juana sometimes.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Gee D - she's not a saint, the RC church doesn't seem to acknowledge her at all. She is mostly recognised in Mexico as an icon of Mexican identity and as an early, if not the first, feminist from her writings.

Yes, indeed she is not a saint, if by that you mean a person whose name is on the Catholic Church's canon. Nor indeed are many on the Calendar of the Episcopal Church including Elie Naud, whom we remembered today. Then there are many whom we, as Australian Anglicans, remember who are not on either.

[ 07. September 2015, 11:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Curiosity killed ...: Gee D - she's not a saint, the RC church doesn't seem to acknowledge her at all. She is mostly recognised in Mexico as an icon of Mexican identity and as an early, if not the first, feminist from her writings.
Latin Americans have a tendency to sanctify people without waiting for official confirmation from the Vatican [Smile] I've heard the late Archbishop of El Salvador being referred to as San Romero more than once, and I wouldn't be surprised if something similar also happened with Sor Juana sometimes.
Which I believe is how it always used to be, before the Council of Trent centralised everything.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Kelly Alves

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I read some of her writings in one of my Spanish literature classes, and remember being powerfully impressed. The reading was a letter she wrote in apologia to a priest who was lamenting the idea of a woman taking on the mantle of theologian. Her reply amounted to a mini- autobiography, in which she described herself as a child prodigy, detailing mathematical and linguistic accomplishments she achieved while very young.

The math stuff in particular blew me away-- I don't know if she had been somehow exposed to Kabbalah, but she described this whole revelation in which she made elaborate connections between ( I think) geometrics and specific Old Testament books.

In any case, her apologia boiled down to, if God hadn't wanted me to use my intellect, why did he make it so voracious and untameable?

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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LeRoc

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Is that Respuesta a Sor Filotea de la Cruz? The Spanish original can be found in various places on the net, an English translation is here. She seems to do passive aggressiveness well [Smile]

[ 07. September 2015, 20:45: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Kelly Alves

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Considering she was a nun speaking up to a priest-- which in itself was actionable-- I thought she was pretty damn bold. Also, my understanding is that the saccarine tone of the letter was down to Sor Juana's recognizing that the " sister" ( it's coming back to me) she was addressing was actually one of her priestly superiors writing under a nun's moniker. That's why all the " most beloved and revered sister" jazz.
In any case-- yes, the Respuesta! [Yipee] [Yipee]

Oh, and go to section 11 to read the math stuff/ Book of Daniel connection I was talking about. i find Sor Juana to be a breath of fresh air-- she has an equal, contagious passion for God and knowledge.

[ 07. September 2015, 21:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Kelly Alves: Also, my understanding is that the saccarine tone of the letter was down to Sor Juana's recognizing that the " sister" ( it's coming back to me) she was addressing was actually one of her priestly superiors writing under a nun's moniker.
One place where she does this brilliantly: one of the accusations the priest makes is that she writes too much about secular subjects, and that she should concentrate more on religious matters.

She replies that in her ignorance she isn't worthy of writing about something so dignified as the Holy Scripture. She gives a couple of examples to illustrate that Scripture shouldn't be studied by people who aren't ready for it. One of these examples is the Song of Songs. She is saying that even learned men shouldn't read this book before they're thirty years old, porque de la dulzura de aquellos epitalamios no tomase ocasión la imprudente juventud de mudar el sentido en carnales afectos — "so that reckless youths would not seize on it to change the sweetness of its nuptial songs into carnal crudeness" (William Little's translation).

She keeps up the farce that she's writing to a woman, but she knows that's writing to a man, and in a very subtle way she is accusing him of having done exactly this!
[Killing me]

And that's just one of the brilliant gems I got from the first paragraphs. Oh, she would have made an excellent Hell Host.


I haven't reached section 11 yet, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you Curiosity killed... for pointing me to this.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Kelly Alves

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Oh, she was wonderfully sarcastic. I forgot how funny parts of this were.

I truly thank you for finding that link; I am falling in love with her all over again.

[ 07. September 2015, 22:06: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Considering she was a nun speaking up to a priest-- which in itself was actionable-- I thought she was pretty damn bold. Also, my understanding is that the saccarine tone of the letter was down to Sor Juana's recognizing that the " sister" ( it's coming back to me) she was addressing was actually one of her priestly superiors writing under a nun's moniker.

As I said above, if the bishop hadn't wanted her to talk back to him, he could have written under his own name. As far as I can tell, it was the same bishop who'd previously enlisted her against his ecclesiastical enemies. By writing under the pseudonym of a nun, he's giving her every opening to refute his arguments. That suggests to me that he's deliberately giving her the opening to refute the arguments (and she knows and the third parties know).
(Yes, Renaissance writers do play these sorts of games of 'I am too modest and retiring to publish my letters, but unfortunately when I left the man I thought was my best friend in my room with the desk unlocked he stole my letters and gave them to the printer because he thought the world couldn't do without them any longer.')

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Kelly Alves

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Sorry, missed your post in the excitement of re-reading the letter. I was focused on defending Sor Juana against the charge of "Passive aggression," which really doesn't fit her, ISTM.

The thought of a friendly set up occurred to me, though I failed to articulate it for some reason.

Regardless of the correspondent's motives , I still love how she really milks the faux identity thing-- how much fun she had with it. Her intelligence just capers across the page

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Golden Key
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Suor Maria Celeste, one of Galileo's daughters, seems to have had a similar life. There's a book called "Galileo's Daughter", which is a sort of memoir put together from her correspondence.

[ 08. September 2015, 04:21: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Curiosity killed ...

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Funnily enough some of the discussions back and forth between Sor Juana and the bishops and archbishop reminded me of some conversations on the Ship, which was partly why I brought it here.

The bit about that letter was portrayed in the play as far more politically loaded. The new Archbishop of Mexico preached that old sermon, Sor Juana verbally criticised it, the Bishop of Puebla who had been friendly to her turned against her and asked her to write it down with promises that he wouldn't publish it. He then published it with the Sor Filotea addendums, prompting the Respuesta. I suspect I heard chunks of the Respuesta in her appeal to the Archbishop of Mexico, and must find it to read.

eta verb agreement

[ 08. September 2015, 06:06: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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LeRoc

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quote:
Kelly Alves: I was focused on defending Sor Juana against the charge of "Passive aggression," which really doesn't fit her, ISTM.
[Confused] 'Passive-aggressive' seems to have different meanings on the Ship. She seems to be doing what we are doing here, only 1000% better. Whatever you want to call it, I'm not accusing her, I'm admiring her for it.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I guess when I have heard used in a non-satirical sense (unlike above, where all the participants are clearly screwing around) it seems to mean someone hiding real aggression behind a mask of civility--or someone too afraid to speak their case in anything but oblique terms. Being giddily sarcastic in the face of something clearly laughable is something different. And afraid? Heh.

Not all that important-- the point is, she does it masterfully.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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