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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 2 Kings 2:24... Two bears came out of the woods...
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Simon
Editor
# 1
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Posted
Verse nominated by Mary Jett
"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths." (2 Kings 2:23-24, in context)
Mary comments: The bears obviously killed more kids than were mocking Elisha, and you would think those would be the only ones who really had it coming.
Patrick the less saintly comments: In this verse, both God and his prophet demonstrate what is euphemistically referred to in the policing business as disproportionate use of force. This is a God who, when he gets mildly peeved at some children, has them eaten. This sort of violence is all too common in the Hebrew Scriptures, but it is seldom as bizarre as this, with God usually preferring a nice clean smiting. The ursine quality really sets this apart.
DmplnJeff comments: It disturbs my view of God as a kind, loving God. Killing children for name calling? Child abuse gone wild, I say. I have difficulty understanding how this fits the rest of the Bible.
How much of a problem is this verse? Click "Vote Now" to cast your vote!
[ 29. July 2009, 09:26: Message edited by: Simon ]
Poll information
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Eternal memory
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
If I recall correctly, these are not children--more like a gang of late teenagers. And the text says "42 of the youths" which logically suggests that there were at least 43 involved in the taunting itself. Don't know about you, but I'd find harassment by a mob of ca. 50 teenagers a rather scary situation, and would expect it to escalate--astonishing if it didn't, really.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If I recall correctly, these are not children--more like a gang of late teenagers.
Which makes it fine, then.
quote:
Don't know about you, but I'd find harassment by a mob of ca. 50 teenagers a rather scary situation, and would expect it to escalate--astonishing if it didn't, really.
I'm sorry, I've forgotten what part of the English speaking world you inhabit, but this just reminds me of the way that so many British adults view young people. The Archbishop of Canterbury wrote an article about how our society needs to treat young people with more respect, only to receive an astonishing number of replies arguing that young people are in fact hooligans.
Maybe the CofE would find more people in Church if the promised bears to maul 'anti-social' adolescents. I'm sure New Labour wouldn't mind. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
Where do you get the idea they were "late teenagers"? OK, this translation says "youths", but I expect that people were considered adults younger in those days than now (even now the Jewish coming of age ceremony is at 13)so I doubt we are talking 18 or 19. Also the King James goes for: 23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And even if they were an intimidating gang of teenage yobs, I doubt being killed by bears is in proportion to the crime!
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
What gave you the idea I liked this verse? Sheesh, people.
As for "late teenagers," I DID say "If I recall correctly." I'm going off old Hebrew class memories because I'm on my way out the door right now. Feel free to go get the TDOT and correct me, all right?
As for my disrespecting young people, . Either reach around yourself and pull that stick out, or call me to hell, your choice.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
Sorry, maybe the Hebrew does use some specialised vocab which means "late teenagers" I don't know and I don't have a TDOT.But you did kind of seem to be saying if they were bolshy teenagers it was not so bad... though I am sure you didn't mean it exactly that way
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Laurie17
Shipmate
# 14889
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Posted
may all beings be well
may all creatures be happy
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when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
No, I wasn't saying that. Can you see a difference between "it's not so bad because they were probably older teenagers" and "mauling young kids would have been even worse" ? The latter is what I meant.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If I recall correctly, these are not children--more like a gang of late teenagers. And the text says "42 of the youths" which logically suggests that there were at least 43 involved in the taunting itself. Don't know about you, but I'd find harassment by a mob of ca. 50 teenagers a rather scary situation, and would expect it to escalate--astonishing if it didn't, really.
Is right.
The story isn’t about small boys being punished by a vicious God, by being eaten alive by bears, just for teasing a baldy. It’s about a prophet of God about to be kicked to death by a crowd of teenage thugs, who is rescued by God. It’s making the same sort of points as David and Goliath, the OT Jews fighting their way into the Holy Land, Jesus on the cross. This story is part of a narrative which says, “God will deal with evil, even if it seems overwhelming at the moment".
The term for youths, “na'ar” is a variable term, and it certainly gets used for people old enough to be soldiers and to marry. So think of the group as a gang of ‘hoodies’ as we would call them in the UK, or ‘adolescent thugs' maybe.
If (purely for simplicity’s sake) we run with 42 thugs mauled; there must have been a massive horde of them to start with. This was something organised. Elisha’s opposition to the movement towards Baal worship, and general holy approach to life, would have gone down badly in certain quarters, and it is entirely possible that the youths were sent to ‘give him a good kicking’.
The baldy thing wasn’t about an Elton John style hair loss. Elisha lived 50 years more (13:14) and probably was too young to be bald. A much more likely explanation is that he had his hair shaved for the recent ’death’ of Elijah. Shaving your head was a common rite of mourning in OT times. The hoodies were aggressively threatening Elisha about his friend’s death, and threatening more death to come.
Thus “go on up, you baldhead” means ‘f*** off and die like your friend’. (Go on up can only refer to his ascent to Heaven, really). There must have been a high probability Elisha was going to be fatally beaten by a crowd of feral youths.
Or I could just point out that children get hurt in fictional stories all the time. No-one batted an eyelid at the killing of the children in the Midwich Cuckoos. Kenny was killed so many times in South Park that this was dropped out of boredom. Hansel and Gretel arrived after the deaths of several other children. And the Pied Piper...still part of our culture that we tell as a kind of cautionary tale. No-one gets upset at these stories. Take Elisha and the bears as a story, and treat it the same way. No worries.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm sorry, where in the pericope does it mention the kicking? Or did you just make that up? We can spin this story in a lot of ways, but it always means adding something into the text. Just taking the text we have, God sent a bear to rip up 42 young people for taunting a prophet. Not for threatening him with bodily harm, that's nowhere in the story. Not because he was mourning Elijah's death, that's nowhere in the story. Because they called Elisha bald and told him to "go up". That's all we have in the story. Anything more is invention.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Gotta admit, I've never been sure what to make of this verse.
Always wondered if it simply taught something along the lines of "If you are going to presume to speak for God, watch your damn mouth, because it can do a lot of damage.'
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
If I were one middle-aged man walking through the back end of a town and found myself paced by forty-two or more jeering guys with men's bodies and teen-aged brains, I'd be worried even if they had not made any overt threat. Perhaps if I felt I had enough mojo, I'd summon my "command" voice and curse the bunch, too. Perhaps a curse in the name of the Lord is "Cooommmme and getttt itttt!" in Bear.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Gotta admit, I've never been sure what to make of this verse.
I think that's the killer. There are lots of verses that are unpleasant one way or another, but offer the possibility of interpreting them in a way that gives them some value. This one is not only unpleasant, but doesn't seem to tell us anything useful, however you interpret it.
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, though, I suppose it might be useful for scaring rude kids.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm sorry, where in the pericope does it mention the kicking? Or did you just make that up? We can spin this story in a lot of ways, but it always means adding something into the text. Just taking the text we have, God sent a bear to rip up 42 young people for taunting a prophet. Not for threatening him with bodily harm, that's nowhere in the story. Not because he was mourning Elijah's death, that's nowhere in the story. Because they called Elisha bald and told him to "go up". That's all we have in the story. Anything more is invention.
Not invention. Always include the context and background when trying to make sense of the Bible. If that involves going beyond just the words printed on the page, so be it. It's the normal thing to do.
Elijah has ascended into heaven just before the section opens. Shaving of the head was normal in ritual mourning in the culture. A young Elisha's suggested follicle issues get no other mention. A large mob of teenagers, from a place with hostility issues to Judaism, yell “Go on up!”, a phrase that apparently makes no sense at all.
Putting all this together, Elisha being in a very volatile and highly dangerous situation seems the only sensible reading. That's the situation the writer is trying to get across. Remember it's a story!!!
My best guess of what to take from the story is the one that keeps cropping up throughout the Bible; that God will deal with evil, even if it seems overwhelming at the moment.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've heard Sarah G's theory before from various learned commentators, and it does make a fair amount of sense. And I don't think it's a terrible thing to try to make sense of a passage that is confusing otherwise, especially when the context and culture provide us with clues. Though of course we could always be wrong.
I'm interested in the mojo idea. It seems to me that quite a few people Shipboard see a prophet's power as being somehow delegated to him to use as he sees fit (even in a wrong way). I've always thought that prophets had no power except insofar as God listened to them and did (or didn't do!) whatever the prophet was calling for/needing at the time. Which would of course mean that the bears were God's doing, not Elisha's.
It's too early, and I'm being confusing, sorry. But do you folks truly think that Elisha could summon bears with God's power even against God's will? I didn't think God rented his power out like that.
Bleah. Coffee.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's too early, and I'm being confusing, sorry. But do you folks truly think that Elisha could summon bears with God's power even against God's will? I didn't think God rented his power out like that.
Once again, not literally. But in the land of Folktale all sorts of crazy things happen, especially if there is a lesson to be taught.
So again, I wonder if this story is less about a bear attack and more about personal responsibility, and the power words have.
How about if the prophet let the kids follow him to a town where he knew he had slogs of mindless supporters, pointed at them, and shouted, "Stone them! They're demons!"
They would have ended up just as dead, it would have been just as much Elisha's fault, and the people involved would have also seen it as a manifestation of God's power through Elisha's word. That's what I think it's really about.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I have trouble allegorizing the text that far, but... The thing that this is reminding me of is the ever-recurring and never-satisfied thread on Peter supposedly murdering Ananias and Sapphira by means of divine power. I'm sure the supporters of that idea would leap on Elisha as another example of the same thing. But that's the issue I was questioning. I can't wrap my head around the concept of God's power separated from God. But maybe no one on this thread is really meaning that (unlike t'other).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I can't wrap my head around the concept of God's power separated from God. But maybe no one on this thread is really meaning that (unlike t'other).
I think I am thinking of the concept of "God-given power" rather than Gods' power, if you see the difference. Of the former we all have a measure (one could argue), but of the latter there is only one owner.
SO, Elisha has the God-given power of powerful speech. Since it is God's freely given gift, he can choose how to use it-- just like we all do. There is ample evidence thorughout history of people having the gift of powerful speech and using it in wholly unhelpful ways.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I have trouble allegorizing the text that far, but... The thing that this is reminding me of is the ever-recurring and never-satisfied thread on Peter supposedly murdering Ananias and Sapphira by means of divine power. I'm sure the supporters of that idea would leap on Elisha as another example of the same thing. But that's the issue I was questioning. I can't wrap my head around the concept of God's power separated from God. But maybe no one on this thread is really meaning that (unlike t'other).
What about Samson?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Samson! There you go! Exactly!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Is it bad that whenever I read this story, I immediately think of the song "Teddy bear picnic"?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Me too!
As for Samson, that's a whole raft of threads in itself, but since he WAS supposed to be judge (= semi-military rescuer against the oppression of the Philistines), one could argue that his exploits were poor but real fulfillments of that role. I mean, it's not like he used his strength to have superior staying power in his bouts with Delilah (heavenly Viagra)!
But truly it seems to me that Samson's strength was a bit different than the usual prophet or apostle's divine power. Perhaps because of his lifelong role as a Nazarite, it was more like what we call "natural" gifts and talents, just raised to an unnatural level. Something that really was assigned to him (tho' temporarily repo'ed) rather than just being a case of God listening and acting on a case by case basis.
Dang, I'm being incoherent. But Samson was just plain weird.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Phos Hilaron
Shipmate
# 6914
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Posted
Posted by the Great Gumby quote:
This one is not only unpleasant, but doesn't seem to tell us anything useful, however you interpret it.
It tells you to not piss off a prophet.
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Gaero?.......Gaero!
Posts: 1684 | From: Choson | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But truly it seems to me that Samson's strength was a bit different than the usual prophet or apostle's divine power. Perhaps because of his lifelong role as a Nazarite, it was more like what we call "natural" gifts and talents, just raised to an unnatural level.
By whom? I can only assume by God, which brings us right back around to someone using God-given supernatural power(s) in (what seems to us) a bad way.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But truly it seems to me that Samson's strength was a bit different than the usual prophet or apostle's divine power. Perhaps because of his lifelong role as a Nazarite, it was more like what we call "natural" gifts and talents, just raised to an unnatural level.
By whom? I can only assume by God, which brings us right back around to someone using God-given supernatural power(s) in (what seems to us) a bad way.
Plus, among other things, he was a piss-poor Nazarite.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Tell me about it! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
As for God giving all gifts, well durrrrrr. Of course he does. But it's customary to make a distinction between the gifts that are born with a person (intelligence, health, strength, agility, etc.) and the kind of razzle dazzle "Dude, you're a prophet now!" gifts that usually get attributed to God's power. All I'm saying is that Samson's strength appears to be much closer to category 1 (though significantly upped) than (say) Elisha's highly convenient though unexpected* bears.
* Unless anyone supposes Elisha doused himself in honey first, which would doubtless attract the attention of the yoof.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But you're dragging in the camel with the "significantly upped" gnat. Upped by whom? The only possible answer is by God. Which turns it into category 2.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, as I tried to say before, this is more of a gut impression than anything else. I'm not attempting to build a watertight argument--just saying what bugs me about these kind of stories. I hope you'll take what follows in that spirit.
Yes, of course Samson's strength was significantly upped by God (who else?). Go further, say that EVERYONE's strength is given (let alone upped) by God (that's category 1, you see). But physical strength, even at Samson's level, seems to me to be a human thing. Divinely augmented, perhaps, but still rooted in human nature.
And that is what makes Samson's gift differ from Elisha's alleged bear calling, to my mind. There is no inborn human trait that allows a person to call for wild bear defenders and have them just show up, snap! like that. There isn't anything I can think of that God could augment to produce such an effect. It looks to me like direct divine intervention--NOT something funneled through Elisha's personal will.
Which of course makes the story all the more offensive to most, but there you go.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Qupe
Shipmate
# 12388
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Posted
Didn't Fat and Frantic write a song based on this gruesome incident? Or am I just remembering the early 90s and making half of it up as I go along?
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'Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.'
Posts: 802 | From: Down the road from the chocolate factory | Registered: Feb 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is it bad that whenever I read this story, I immediately think of the song "Teddy bear picnic"?
I like you so much more now that you have admitted that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
It occurs to me to wonder what the bears were doing in the woods in the first place. The usual?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Qupe
Shipmate
# 12388
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Posted
Tangent alert:
In answer to my own question (which has been bugging me all day), for anyone who is interested, Fat and Frantic did indeed write a song based on this passage. It's called 'The Blad Man's Revenge' and is on the 'Live at the Wonky Donkey' album, which I'll now spend the next three hours trying to find in the bowels of my house! Doncha just hate it when something reminds you of a song from way back when and you can't rest until you've listened to it? (Or that might just be me...)
Tangent over.
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'Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.'
Posts: 802 | From: Down the road from the chocolate factory | Registered: Feb 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
What kinda bears they got in Israel, anyway? Any chance the bears were having hair issues themselves, and were maybe a mite sensitive about the "baldy" stuff?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Plus, among other things, he was a piss-poor Nazarite.
Yeah no-one ever points this out.
Bears! Bears, Kelly!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I dunno. I once took a doctrinal exam (in a Synod you wot of, Kelly!) and it happened to be on this very story of Samson. The whole point of the exam apparently was to see whether you would try to tapdance around Samson's behavior because he was, after all, a "man of God." If you did, they pitched you out on your ear as doctrinally unsound. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Must have been a helluva shock to some of the hopefuls who piously bent the truth in the fond belief that this was wanted. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, it figures. Them sneaky, sneaky Missouri-Synod folk.
[ 01. August 2009, 05:12: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It occurs to me to wonder what the bears were doing in the woods in the first place. The usual?
And being disturbed in that process by 100 yelling teenagers might go some way to explaining subsequent events.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It might. Pity we haven't a time machine and a few boxes of Bear-Lax.
(I understand that bears get constipated and very, very cranky during blueberry season. Anyone know if blueberries grow in Israel?)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
Apologies for joining the party so late - I've been back in the UK visiting relatives.
Great idea of Simon's this ... indeed this passage about the bears is a childhood favourite of mine - not in the sense that I like it but rather that I have always found it intriguing.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Not for threatening him with bodily harm, that's nowhere in the story. Not because he was mourning Elijah's death, that's nowhere in the story. Because they called Elisha bald and told him to "go up". That's all we have in the story. Anything more is invention.
Exactly. All we've got to go on is the 'go on up' but not exactly normal parlance is it?
Context - 2 Kings gives us the Deuteronmist history of Israel. Blessings and curses are to be expected from obedience / disobedience of the covenant.
Elisha has just reversed the curse on Jericho. God's word brought healing to the people.
The incident with the bears is a judgment on the people of Israel rather than just the young men in particular. For example see:
Leviticus 26 verses 21-22, The Lord says “If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.”
story - Bethel was a place of worship (the house of God). Elisha went 'up' to it and that is what the youths are ridiculing. Undoubtedly, as Sarah G says, they are also laughing about the disappearance of Elijah too, but overall they are pouring scorn on Elijah as a servant of YWHW; of worship of YWHW.
Therefore the story is really about the spiritual state of the nation. The Israelites had not kept the covenant and has not taught their children to know and fear the Lord. These 'youths' are proof of that. The covenant has been broken and it is not so much that the youths are particularly bad and must be punished but more that the nation as a whole is receiving the curses promised if the covenant is broken.
Those are the bear facts. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I could go on to the whole Moses --> Joshua / Elijah --> Elisha / JtB --> Jesus ... Jericho --> Jordan thing ... or how wonderful it is that Jesus breaks the curse, but I don't want to bore you all... anymore that is.
[ 02. August 2009, 05:14: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
I think it is helpful to start with a recognition that the core problem for us is the concept of judgement - we don't like the fact presented here that God is punishing people. Once we've got past that issue, we have to ask hard questions about the legitimacy of punishing children for the bad attitudes of their parents. Certainly this is a standard OT attitude - Moses's judgements on various people tends to include their children. Of course we don't like this either - but it seems to be the way God works, which implies that parents have EVEN MORE responsibility for what happens to their children than we generally allow; note that this is reflected in child baptism - what do we think we are doing if we aren't reflecting the fact that the child is gaining the same benefits that the parents have as a result of being Christians?
Once these two premises are in place, the logic of the children being judged for the implicit attitudes of the parents, reflected in what the children are saying (where else do they get these ideas?) makes a lot more sense. So in the end it is a challenging passage - but not one that needs to be rejected as 'not my God'...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
On what does "go on up" mean: this passage comes after Elijah is carried up into heaven in a fiery chariot. The children may have been taunting Elisha to do the same.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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DagonSlaveII
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# 15162
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Posted
Tangent:
Some of my favorite stories are unexpected animal maulings. I like a secular one, from about 10 years back. 2 protesters (Green Peace?) were protesting a German Pig Plant and the pigs got loose, somehow, and trampled them to death.
Point:
If there is a spiritual punishment for the end of days (hell), then I expect physical punishments to warn us of that impending doom, even up to death.
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Thanks for all the prayers for my not-yet-family. Please continue to pray for my future Brother-in-law's mum, she is still in the hospital, although doing better.
Posts: 138 | From: Houma | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
So the pig protesters were getting a taste of hell for their transgressions against the pork industry?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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DagonSlaveII
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# 15162
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Posted
It's titled tangent.
The second comment was titled differently.
I did not associate those two thoughts at all.
They were protesting killing pigs (maybe the inhumane treatment, if so, then maybe they had some cause). I think it's amusing that the pigs didn't have the same respect for the protesters as the protesters did for them. Nothing more, nothing less.
But if you stand in the way of stampeding crowd of pigs (that you probably let lose to save them from slaughter), then you deserve to be trampled. And this is fairly easy to see without making the incident into "finger of God" punishing the protesters.
What were these boys doing that they couldn't get away from 2 bears? Did they lay down and let themselves be trampled? Did they trample each other? The more likely scenario is that they stayed to fight the bears for sport, and didn't come up for common sense...but we wern't there, so it's no more than specualtion. *shrugs*
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Thanks for all the prayers for my not-yet-family. Please continue to pray for my future Brother-in-law's mum, she is still in the hospital, although doing better.
Posts: 138 | From: Houma | Registered: Sep 2009
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agrgurich
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# 5724
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Posted
Mark Twain said that this was his favorite Scripture passage. He was the father of 3 daughters, after all.
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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole
AJG
Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dumpling Jeff
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# 12766
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Posted
I hadn't thought these "small children" (King James) were teenagers for a variety of reasons. I could see God killing teens for their mere existence.
Still I like Johnny S's explanation better.
Of course they both still leave God being cruel.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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BWSmith
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# 2981
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Posted
If the bears did this in the woods, then it didn't make a sound, and is therefore not a problem.
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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