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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: LGBT (Anglican) clergy: useful idiots?
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
From RationalWiki:
quote:
A useful idiot is someone who supports one side of an ideological debate, but who is manipulated and held in contempt by the leaders of their faction or is unaware of the ultimate agenda driving the ideology to which they subscribe.
I've been doing a lot of thinking recently about my relationship with the Church of England as an institution, and it's brought me to a position that has some very uncomfortable elements to it. For any Shipmates that don't know, I was ordained a priest in the CofE 23 years ago; spent most of my working life thereafter employed by the NHS as a chaplain; and took (very) early retirement last year. I'm gay (as a daisy in May) and I've always had a very difficult relationship with the CofE in regard to its public policy towards LGBT people. In fact, it recently got to a point where I said - for the first time, out loud - that if I had my time again, I wouldn't put myself forward for ordination at all. ("If I knew then what I know now..." and all that.)
What I hadn't been able to do is really to describe why I have so much unresolved anger and resentment towards the Church - until I remembered the political concept of the "useful idiot", a definition of which I've given above. In basic terms, I feel I spent 20-odd years of my life being duped and taken for a fool. I was certainly useful to the CofE, but I was an idiot if I thought I'd ever really be accepted, let alone valued, as a gay priest.
My question for Shipmates is, what do you think of this description of LGBT clergy? My question for myself - which I hope this conversation might help with - is, where do I go from here?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'm not sophisticated about either of the issues - gay and clergy - but would hazard a speculation that you are either useful at trying to change things from within, or useful at trying to change things from without. The latter is always easier to justify, but a lot hard to make a living at. It sounds like you did both (unless I'm reading too much into it), which is admirable. On the third label for people in your OP - "idiot" - I doubt very much that you were one of those. Of the three, I do have experience with being that so can answer more definitely there.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I think the question of whether one is a useful idiot turns on whether your being in the organisation has more served the change the things you disagree with or support the people doing the oppressing. I think for some gay clergy it's very clearly the former. Whether it's the latter for any I wouldn't like to say. Certainly the presence of gay clergy has served to promote change in TEC and the SEC. The CofE suffers from being far less democratic than either.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
First of all, a disclaimer - I'm not gay. I can't begin to claim that I know how gay and lesbian Anglican clergy feel about how they are working for an organisation that tries so hard to dismiss and belittle them.
Having said that, I certainly reached the point a couple of years ago where I realised that me continuing working for the C of E was not really healthy for me. No matter how much I told myself that I could work with others to help make a change in how LGBT people are treated in the C of E, I came to the conclusion that I really only fooling myself.
This was one of the reasons why I moved to Canada. I am no longer seen as working for an organisation that my own children regard as structurally homophobic (which in their eyes is on a par with being structurally racist).
I am not saying that people shouldn't work to change the C of E from within. But you have to be realistic about how much things might change, how slowly change may happen and how strong you are to work within such a situation. If you're happy to continue the struggle from within, that's fine. It is simply that I reached a point where I recognised that it was doing me more harm than good and that I needed to make a change to protect my emotional and mental well-being.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
My question for Shipmates is, what do you think of this description of LGBT clergy?
I wish I could say that you're wrong, but I can't.
It doesn't make much sense for you to be so committed to an institutional church which, at best, fails to accept and value you, and at worst treats you, and people like you, with outright contempt. You'd have to be an idiot to stay with us.
But I still hope that you do, because if there truly is no place for gay people in this church, then we're not a church. If we're telling millions of people for whom Christ died that they can't come to him as God made them, then we're putting our prejudices above the gospel. As long as we have priests like you, there'll be at least one voice of welcome.
So I do think that you're useful - invaluable, even - and want you to stay, even though staying is clearly idiotic. If you prefer not to be a Useful Idiot, can I at least think of you as a Holy Fool?
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Thank you all for your contributions so far.
At this stage, I'd just like to clarify something I think is important in the concept of the "useful idiot". People talk of LGBT clergy changing things from inside the Church. But actually on an institutional scale, nothing changes. Part of what makes the useful idiot useful is that the institution can say "Look at how affirming we are - we have all these LGBT clergy!" The fact that we're there is great PR for the institution that holds us in contempt.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The conduct of the church toward gay people has changed, even if it is still suboptimal.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
If it had 'changed', then it had changed in that it has got worse - as an article in this week's Church Times points out - I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall.
Adeotus - the institution may not have valued you but the many lay people to whom you have ministered doubtlesds have and do vae you - especially in chaplaincy work which most bishops and archdeacons don't understand and at which they would be useless. Chaplaincy is cutting edge and few are capable of it. Likewise inner city ministry at which (though it is a generalisation) many gay priests excel and which many straight, married clergy avoid for 'family reasons'.
The fact that many of us laity value the ministry of gay priests means, meanwhle, that we should stand up and be counted. e.g. I have been campaigning against a ceretain evangelical bishop who treats his gay priests with contempt.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I find that hard to believe, for a start, the CofE now has openly gay priests - which it didn't 40 years ago. And officially accepts gay laity.
[ 06. February 2016, 09:25: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thank you all for your contributions so far.
At this stage, I'd just like to clarify something I think is important in the concept of the "useful idiot". People talk of LGBT clergy changing things from inside the Church. But actually on an institutional scale, nothing changes. Part of what makes the useful idiot useful is that the institution can say "Look at how affirming we are - we have all these LGBT clergy!" The fact that we're there is great PR for the institution that holds us in contempt.
Watch this space. The General Synod of the SEC will likely take another step towards equal marriage this summer. It's not the CofE but it's still Anglican.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Watch this space. The General Synod of the SEC will likely take another step towards equal marriage this summer. It's not the CofE but it's still Anglican.
Until the Primates decide you're not Anglican.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Not an idiot no, far from it - you did the best with what you had (A homophobic hierarchy). They are in the wrong for treating you so badly.
I hope you can broadcast that fact loud and long.
All power to your elbow.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Watch this space. The General Synod of the SEC will likely take another step towards equal marriage this summer. It's not the CofE but it's still Anglican.
Until the Primates decide you're not Anglican.
They have no authority to decide that, so I'm not particularly fussed.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Watch this space. The General Synod of the SEC will likely take another step towards equal marriage this summer. It's not the CofE but it's still Anglican.
Until the Primates decide you're not Anglican.
They have no authority to decide that, so I'm not particularly fussed.
I agree about their lack of authority, but it's rather annoying.
I hope we'll be able to welcome the SEC and many others to the club.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
From RationalWiki:
quote:
A useful idiot is someone who supports one side of an ideological debate, but who is manipulated and held in contempt by the leaders of their faction or is unaware of the ultimate agenda driving the ideology to which they subscribe.
I've been doing a lot of thinking recently about my relationship with the Church of England as an institution, and it's brought me to a position that has some very uncomfortable elements to it. For any Shipmates that don't know, I was ordained a priest in the CofE 23 years ago; spent most of my working life thereafter employed by the NHS as a chaplain; and took (very) early retirement last year. I'm gay (as a daisy in May) and I've always had a very difficult relationship with the CofE in regard to its public policy towards LGBT people. In fact, it recently got to a point where I said - for the first time, out loud - that if I had my time again, I wouldn't put myself forward for ordination at all. ("If I knew then what I know now..." and all that.)
What I hadn't been able to do is really to describe why I have so much unresolved anger and resentment towards the Church - until I remembered the political concept of the "useful idiot", a definition of which I've given above. In basic terms, I feel I spent 20-odd years of my life being duped and taken for a fool. I was certainly useful to the CofE, but I was an idiot if I thought I'd ever really be accepted, let alone valued, as a gay priest.
My question for Shipmates is, what do you think of this description of LGBT clergy? My question for myself - which I hope this conversation might help with - is, where do I go from here?
I feel exactly like you, if that's any help, and that's on a good day. On a bad day, I feel like I'm colluding with evil, though the hierarchy's now trying to sound nice about it all.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I feel exactly like you, if that's any help, and that's on a good day. On a bad day, I feel like I'm colluding with evil, though the hierarchy's now trying to sound nice about it all.
You've put your finger on it. Collusion. I've been a collaborator.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I abandoned the Church of England a few years ago and a factor was their treatment of gay people. The then big stories of SSM and women bishops meant I stopped being on the electoral roll of any church. The situation for women bishops has moved on, but the public pronouncements are ever less affirming for gay people. (The Lambeth Conference decisions around TEC come to mind.)
I know a lot of LGBT Anglican clergy, am friends with some. I cannot be open about which LGBT Anglican clergy I know in public for fear of exposing them to censure by their fellow clergy and other churches. I am aware of a necessary caution against saying that a certain church has gay clergy because there is a likelihood of that church becoming the subject of demonstrations by more hard line Christians.
In my experience, however affirming some churches are, they cannot explicitly state that publicly because of this risk. I am aware of churches that are members of Inclusive Church that don't publicise it. (I've just checked the Changing Attitudes website and there are whole dioceses missing from the list, some of which don't surprise me.)
(Having said that, I can't be more specific about the outside pressures as I can't risk identifying people.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I hope we'll be able to welcome the SEC and many others to the club.
I hope you'll be able to welcome us in the SEC too.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I feel exactly like you, if that's any help, and that's on a good day. On a bad day, I feel like I'm colluding with evil, though the hierarchy's now trying to sound nice about it all.
You've put your finger on it. Collusion. I've been a collaborator.
Yes we are; but there still is Christ, and (not sure how old you are) other institutions, nations etc have only changed ever so recently... I think the church (and the CofE less than most) will pay a very heavy price for its cowardice, misdeeds and prevarication, pretty soon... I'm trying hard to be compassionate.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I feel exactly like you, if that's any help, and that's on a good day. On a bad day, I feel like I'm colluding with evil, though the hierarchy's now trying to sound nice about it all.
You've put your finger on it. Collusion. I've been a collaborator.
and another thing, if you'll allow me to preach; when someone sins (as the church currently does, I have little doubt), we should show the utmost love and compassion to the sinner. it's no different when those who sin claim to be Christian, orthodox or whatever, though it;s a really tough call. And you know: blessed are the idiots, useful or not, they shall be called children of God. You're in my prayers tonight.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I feel exactly like you, if that's any help, and that's on a good day. On a bad day, I feel like I'm colluding with evil, though the hierarchy's now trying to sound nice about it all.
You've put your finger on it. Collusion. I've been a collaborator.
I know that one. I've come face to face with it myself this year in particular. In some ways I'd much rather leave. I could live with more integrity and adventure then. But I don't for various reasons, one of them being that those in the church (clergy and lay people alike), who are far more vulnerable than myself, would have one less advocate.
At the moment, I have accepted that there is a high price to be paid for that. Alongside the mess the church has made of my personal life, and the constant guilt of feeling that I am betraying friends, I've had to face the fact that I am part of an oppressive institution, and even as I work to challenge that oppression from within, I am still administering it. So I am aware that I live in a constant state of sin, and I repent daily for it. But sometimes I feel that there may be a weird kind of honour in taking on that burden, and letting the much-deserved flak hit me, if I can do so with honesty. If I walk away, my theological hands would be cleaner. But for the moment, I stay amidst the grubbiness, and do what I can to sweep some corner of it. Though how much longer I can keep it up is another question.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Adeodatus, at least you're angry. When I finally decided to leave the church, after 20 or so years of fighting to be allowed to perform any sort of ministry role, a lesbian clergyperson said to me, "but won't you be sorry to leave all the wonderful traditions of the church behind?" I lost the plot more comprehensively than I have ever done before or since and listed out the incidents directed at me that reinforced the fine tradition of the church shaming LGBT people. Her response: "But that's never happened to me." (She was my parish minister - so leaving was not just down to institutional bigotry.)
And I agree with leo - you will have been a blessing to many in your role, completely independently of either sexuality or institution. What I've realised, working in a hospital and out and about in the world is that most people don't understand denominations, they just know whether their local priest/pastor/vicar is a good person. In the moment of their need, they don't care if you're from the Flying Spaghetti Monster church, provided you can be with them.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
And I agree with leo - you will have been a blessing to many in your role, completely independently of either sexuality or institution.
This, if your Ship-board persona shares any characteristics with your work on the wards, as it surely must.
But we hear your anger, and pray. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I'm LGBT and an Anglican but not clergy, although I know many including some of the more publically prominent LGBT Anglican clergy (including trans clergy - let's not forget the B and T please). From spending time within LGBT evangelical Anglican circles, there is a huge shift starting to happen on the ground, especially with young people. The hope amongst LGBT evangelical young people, some of whom have endured ex-gay ministries and even exorcisms, is extraordinary. Openly LGBT clergy have been incredibly important role models for them.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I feel exactly like you, if that's any help, and that's on a good day. On a bad day, I feel like I'm colluding with evil, though the hierarchy's now trying to sound nice about it all.
You've put your finger on it. Collusion. I've been a collaborator.
I know that one. I've come face to face with it myself this year in particular. In some ways I'd much rather leave. I could live with more integrity and adventure then. But I don't for various reasons, one of them being that those in the church (clergy and lay people alike), who are far more vulnerable than myself, would have one less advocate.
At the moment, I have accepted that there is a high price to be paid for that. Alongside the mess the church has made of my personal life, and the constant guilt of feeling that I am betraying friends, I've had to face the fact that I am part of an oppressive institution, and even as I work to challenge that oppression from within, I am still administering it. So I am aware that I live in a constant state of sin, and I repent daily for it. But sometimes I feel that there may be a weird kind of honour in taking on that burden, and letting the much-deserved flak hit me, if I can do so with honesty. If I walk away, my theological hands would be cleaner. But for the moment, I stay amidst the grubbiness, and do what I can to sweep some corner of it. Though how much longer I can keep it up is another question.
This.
I can relate so, so very closely to this, and must confess that, while this entire thread has conjured up a host of emotions, it is this post that actually caused the tears to flow.
I left the Orthodox subdiaconate in January last year, when my bishop's plans to ordain me a deacon in April, with all that this entailed in light of what is being discussed here, weighed too heavily on me.
I asked myself all of the questions of whether I could continue, whether I would be abandoning a potential opportunity for positive change from within, whether I could stay and bear that burden and what its implications for my own well-being would be. Ultimately I had to go.
While I have been through all manner of changing feelings, theological positions, ecclesiologies, and all sorts since then, the one constant has been my sense of guilt, my collaboration with the culture of homophobia, fear, silence, and shaming. It just won't go away.
I have faced criticism from many quarters - from those who didn't see that there was a problem and couldn't understand why I did what I did, from those who think that I've embraced the evil one and have brought the church into disrepute, from those who have offered support to make it bearable for me to stay (now that the train has already left the station), among an assortment of others. I can deal with all of these rationally and calmly, or choose to ignore them if I really cannot be bothered.
But the one response that I have been unable to handle without flying into a rage (including, to my regret, when it was voiced by my own grandmother), has been the suggestion that I ought to have gone quietly, instead of choosing the path of making a public statement. My parish priest says he cannot understand why I did it that way. A well-intentioned fellow queer Orthodox said that a quiet departure would have been more dignified for a member of the clergy and quite possible for a subdeacon. My grandmother said that it wasn't right for me to do it in such a way that everybody knew the reasons why. Another acquaintance with whom I had once been very close said that, while he understood(?) the reasons why I did it, it would have been better to go quietly, thus revealing that he had no understanding at all.
This has been the most offensive of points that anybody has made because it suggests that I was wrong to speak out, to save myself, and to help bring to light the evil that is done in so many people's lives by those who claim to be acting in the name of Christ; and that it would have been better for me to slip out quietly, as though I was doing something wrong, and continue my collusion with the culture of silence and shaming. It says that my life since then, in which I have found freedom, integrity, and an outlet for doing all of the good things to help queer people that stem from my Christian faith, but which I had previously been afraid to do because of my fear instilled by the Orthodox Church, has been for nothing.
The reason why I think I react so badly to this as opposed to the other criticisms is because of my unresolved sense of guilt. I think part of my motivation in my charity work and my new-found outspokenness is a desire to assuage that guilt.
I don't know what to do with it other than channel it into doing some good in others' lives as an act of reparation. Perhaps this is the burden I must now carry.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I understand this.
I am not a priest, but I was a Roman Catholic religious for a time.
I don't know that 'useful idiot' is the term, as it sounds too self-condemning. The fact is the church draws people into a structure in which the collaborate in their own oppression. The RC Church does this with women and gay men. Of course, without those tow groups, the RC Church would collapse pretty quickly.
Anglicanism is at least having a debate (however bad tempered) and seems to be heading in the right direction (though the increased power of the evo wing is a worry).
I would suggest, Adeodatus, that self-knowledge is never a bad thing, however painful. What is tragic is to see gay people who not only accept their oppression by the church, but weep with gratitude for the partial acceptance they do get.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
I understand this.
I am not a priest, but I was a Roman Catholic religious for a time.
I don't know that 'useful idiot' is the term, as it sounds too self-condemning. The fact is the church draws people into a structure in which the collaborate in their own oppression. The RC Church does this with women and gay men. Of course, without those tow groups, the RC Church would collapse pretty quickly.
Anglicanism is at least having a debate
this is not going to be ecumenically correct but I can relate to what you say. One of the things that give me strength to carry on ministering in the CofE is having been a Roman Catholic religious too. Rome is much, much worse.
[fixed code]
[ 08. February 2016, 17:18: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
You've put your finger on it. Collusion. I've been a collaborator.
I wonder if it's OK for us to want / expect to be 'clean'. I do - I torpedoed my career because I felt corrupt in going on with it, but I wonder now if I might have stayed if I had had more maturity / less pride - I dunno. Something more positive than 'if I had been more corrupt' or 'more of an idiot'. I like the holy fool thing above.
More on-topic, I'm hanging out with charismatic RCs who are, bluntly and amongst other things, homophobes. Good things happen around them and grace and truth are much in evidence. The spirit seems riotously unfussy in terms of the shitty jars of clay He holds his nose amongst - I include myself, of course.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I think collusion/collaboration are easier when you are young. 'Career' seems more important. I have found (and I know others who feel likewise, though it is maybe not a universal rule) that getting older, integrity has become more important. Or maybe I'm just not prepared to pretend anymore.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I am totally caught on the horns of a dilemma.
I want to help the holy people of God (which is to say humanity, or such of it as I come into contact with) to be the most human people they can be, and thus to draw closer to God.
I'm just not convinced that the church as an institution has much to do with this.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
At this stage, I'd just like to clarify something I think is important in the concept of the "useful idiot". [...] Part of what makes the useful idiot useful is that the institution can say "Look at how affirming we are - we have all these LGBT clergy!" The fact that we're there is great PR for the institution that holds us in contempt.
I got that you meant that - but on this point I suspect that you're wrong. The people who hold you in actual contempt probably think that your place in the church is a scandal, or at the very least an embarrassment, and rather than being grateful for the PR you provide would likely be only too happy for you to fuck off.
It's moderates like me who are likely to point to gay clergy and say that this shows that our church can be affirming. When I hear some bishop talking poison in the media, or campaigning against equal rights in law, or suspending an Anglican church from communion for the sin of celebrating their members' marriages (when practically no other deviation from the party line would cause such action) or when explicitly homophobic material or petitions get handed round my church, of course I have to question what I'm doing in this church. But I don't want to leave - I'm a cradle Anglican, I was baptised and learned the faith in the CofE, I'm committed to my parish church, I'm involved in lay ministry - and as long as I can keep telling myself that the homophobia doesn't go all the way down, that it's only one unfortunate strand of opinion that I'm free not to endorse, I'm free to stay. While there are gay clergy (not just you personally, but you are certainly an example that would come to mind) in my church, I can tell myself without obvious self-deception, that I'm not going to a thoroughly homophobic church. I hate (or try to hate) homophobia as much as a straight person can, but I don't feel like a collaborator so long as the hierarchy includes priests like you.
That's not enough, of course, for it to be remotely sensible for you to stay.
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
It's too easy to get burned out as an LGBT Anglican when there's so much poison against you. When I first became a Christian I was able to cope with it pretty well. I went for several years turning cheeks all over the place. "You love Jesus? Great! Considering me to be fully human is an optional extra, so don't worry too much about that!" "Of course I disagree that I'm the scum of the earth, but I understand the scriptural basis for your thinking that!"
What broke it down for me was when a dear friend and mentor, an Anglican priest who had always been the most inclusive and unconditionally loving sort, went through some kind of crisis in his life and suddenly lurched towards a truly nasty kind of fundamentalism. Something clearly provoked this change in him; I suspect some kind of mental breakdown or maybe a minor stroke could have changed his personality.
Seeing how quickly he became prepared to throw LGBT people under the bus broke something in me and I've not been able to call myself Christian since then. I became very very depressed and distrustful of religious people generally. It's been a few years and I'm okay now, but it was one of the hardest things I've ever been through. The thing that made this different from every other homophobic arsehole in the church was that I'd always been able to take the "they know not what they do" line with others. This guy knew what LGBT Christians go through: he'd counselled us, welcomed us and given us a home. And it made no difference: suddenly he was repeating the same vicious lies as the fundies who've had it in for us from the start. And I realise that I no longer trust any of my straight Christian friends not to go the same way. I do (mostly) trust atheists.
Of late, when I'm stupid enough to google him (which I have forced myself to stop doing, because it was doing me no good), I will find a stream of random invective and lies about the gays and the Muslims and the feminists. It's like the guy I looked up to never existed. What scares me is that he is, as far as I know, still an Anglican priest in good standing. This is a church in which you can spend your days spewing hate like this and it'll be: just another opinion... it's a broad church... that's what makes it so exciting! The C of E has made it quite clear that it's basically quite happy to tolerate all manner of lies and hate against LGBT people.
I very much doubt that I'm the only person who's been impacted in this way by this particular meltdown. I've moved on from being devastated, through angry, and now I just feel very very tired when I think of it. I don't want to find more cheeks to turn. I don't want to grit my teeth and say "this is a brother in Christ who just doesn't know a lot of gay people and doesn't understand" when I know damn well that that's not necessarily the case. I know change is happening, albeit at a glacial pace, but someone else is going to have to be that person who smiles and forgives and understands, over and over. I'm sure there are plenty of candidates for that.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
I think collusion/collaboration are easier when you are young. 'Career' seems more important. I have found (and I know others who feel likewise, though it is maybe not a universal rule) that getting older, integrity has become more important. Or maybe I'm just not prepared to pretend anymore.
Definitely this!
I started out by thinking that I might help the C of E to change from within. There were good reasons to think this at the time. The movement may have been slow, but there was movement towards acceptance of LGBT clergy and laity. "Don't ask, don't tell" may not have been the most wholesome policy, but it served a purpose. Gay and lesbian clergy were there, as long as they remained relatively discreet. It was possible to see how this could - over time - lead to fuller acceptance.
But things have changed. Lambeth 1998 was - in retrospect - one of the turning points. But I am not sure I have yet read a full narrative of how things changed. Lambeth 1998 could have been a bump on the road and no more. But it wasn't.
In a staggeringly ironic way, just as the UK public have moved swiftly and dramatically in one direction (towards acceptance of LGBT people), the C of E has moved in the opposite direction.
10 years ago, I would have still said that it was feasible and realistic to work for change from within and hope to see some results in a relatively short space of time. Now, it seems to me that there will have to be a dramatic volte face if anything is to change. Barring a miracle (and I use that word seriously), I do not expect the C of E to be able to make any change at all for at least a decade.
It is this changed landscape that needs to be taken into account when people discern whether they can continue to work within the C of E or not.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
At this stage, I'd just like to clarify something I think is important in the concept of the "useful idiot". [...] Part of what makes the useful idiot useful is that the institution can say "Look at how affirming we are - we have all these LGBT clergy!" The fact that we're there is great PR for the institution that holds us in contempt.
I got that you meant that - but on this point I suspect that you're wrong. The people who hold you in actual contempt probably think that your place in the church is a scandal, or at the very least an embarrassment, and rather than being grateful for the PR you provide would likely be only too happy for you to fuck off.
It's moderates like me who are likely to point to gay clergy and say that this shows that our church can be affirming. When I hear some bishop talking poison in the media, or campaigning against equal rights in law, or suspending an Anglican church from communion for the sin of celebrating their members' marriages (when practically no other deviation from the party line would cause such action) or when explicitly homophobic material or petitions get handed round my church, of course I have to question what I'm doing in this church. But I don't want to leave - I'm a cradle Anglican, I was baptised and learned the faith in the CofE, I'm committed to my parish church, I'm involved in lay ministry - and as long as I can keep telling myself that the homophobia doesn't go all the way down, that it's only one unfortunate strand of opinion that I'm free not to endorse, I'm free to stay. While there are gay clergy (not just you personally, but you are certainly an example that would come to mind) in my church, I can tell myself without obvious self-deception, that I'm not going to a thoroughly homophobic church. I hate (or try to hate) homophobia as much as a straight person can, but I don't feel like a collaborator so long as the hierarchy includes priests like you.
That's not enough, of course, for it to be remotely sensible for you to stay.
Yes - Reform/Anglican Mainstream et al would be delighted if every LGBT person in the CoE (esp clergy) upped and left. I'm not going to give them the satisfaction.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
I don't understand that line of reasoning, Pomona. I mean, I'd probably hate to see the CofE in the hands of Reform as much as you do, but it sounds like 'I'm not leaving the BNP because Tommy Robinson would be all too pleased with my move,' which by no means does not mean you should not get the hell out of the BNP.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
Sorry, 'which does not mean that you should not get the hell out of the BNP' or 'which by no means prove that you should not leave.'
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Once again, thanks to everyone on this thread. I had no idea it would prompt this depth of experience and thought.
I have a ton of sympathy with the view that says "If you go, the bastards win" - it's something that's kept me going at various points over the past 20 years. But what would you say to the often-repeated idea that the first duty of every Christian is to attend to their own salvation? I'm at the point where I think I've got a serious problem with that if I stay in so toxic an environment.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I have a ton of sympathy with the view that says "If you go, the bastards win" - it's something that's kept me going at various points over the past 20 years. But what would you say to the often-repeated idea that the first duty of every Christian is to attend to their own salvation? I'm at the point where I think I've got a serious problem with that if I stay in so toxic an environment.
A truly awful decision to have to make, Adeodatus. I'm in the same situation of 'in or out' with my church at the moment, though for a different reason and not with the painful history and repercussions that you're experiencing, Jesus must be weeping at the injustice of it all. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) or very, very angry?
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Adeodatus:But what would you say to the often-repeated idea that the first duty of every Christian is to attend to their own salvation?
I utterly disagree with this, but that's another discussion. I completely understand your reasons for wanting to leave the church.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I don't understand that line of reasoning, Pomona. I mean, I'd probably hate to see the CofE in the hands of Reform as much as you do, but it sounds like 'I'm not leaving the BNP because Tommy Robinson would be all too pleased with my move,' which by no means does not mean you should not get the hell out of the BNP.
The CoE is not the BNP. A lot of the hierarchy of the CoE may suck, but there's a lot of good stuff and grace and real Christianity at the local level. You may not get that at your own local level, but I do and I don't see why I shouldn't be entitled to participate in that.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Adeodatus - Actually I do think that the first duty of every human is to attend to their own salvation. We find our salvation though, as part of a community - the church. If the community in which you find yourself is not one in which you can work out your salvation then I think you are not only justified but required to find another in which you can. No shame, no selfishness in that.
I am in the process of doing something similar, and I know the trauma. Be assured of my poor prayers, and please pray for me.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Once again, thanks to everyone on this thread. I had no idea it would prompt this depth of experience and thought.
I have a ton of sympathy with the view that says "If you go, the bastards win" - it's something that's kept me going at various points over the past 20 years. But what would you say to the often-repeated idea that the first duty of every Christian is to attend to their own salvation? I'm at the point where I think I've got a serious problem with that if I stay in so toxic an environment.
I left when I finally realised that I wouldn't tolerate a partner behaving the way the church was behaving towards me. I found it was turning me into a person I didn't like. I couldn't imagine how this was what God wanted me to be.
The overwhelming lightness of spirit I felt, the very next day, confirmed that decision much more quickly than I could have imagined. It was my salvation, and 12 years later my ability to minister to the families I work with just grows and grows.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Arabella wrote:
quote:
I left when I finally realised that I wouldn't tolerate a partner behaving the way the church was behaving towards me. I found it was turning me into a person I didn't like. I couldn't imagine how this was what God wanted me to be.
I think that's a brilliant perception, widely applicable. I am in awe that you saw that. Things like that take me about 30 years to see, and then only dimly and deniably.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Hey, don't beat yourself up. It took me 20 mumble years to get there.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
I left when I finally realised that I wouldn't tolerate a partner behaving the way the church was behaving towards me. I found it was turning me into a person I didn't like. I couldn't imagine how this was what God wanted me to be.
Yes. It lightens my spirit just to be able to look at it from this angle. Thank you.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I don't understand that line of reasoning, Pomona. I mean, I'd probably hate to see the CofE in the hands of Reform as much as you do, but it sounds like 'I'm not leaving the BNP because Tommy Robinson would be all too pleased with my move,' which by no means does not mean you should not get the hell out of the BNP.
The CoE is not the BNP. A lot of the hierarchy of the CoE may suck, but there's a lot of good stuff and grace and real Christianity at the local level. You may not get that at your own local level, but I do and I don't see why I shouldn't be entitled to participate in that.
I meant it as an analogy and just meant to say that simply because an organisation's most extreme members would rejoice at your departure does not imply that you should not leave that organisation in the first place. Here goes, put in neutral terms.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
The overwhelming lightness of spirit I felt, the very next day, confirmed that decision much more quickly than I could have imagined.
Mrs Grouch and I were discussing a very similar experience the other day. We had both realised that leaving (geographically!) the C of E had liberated us both in ways we hadn't imagined. A fog of gloom, cynicism and ill-directed anger lifted and we have been much more joyful and enthusiastic than for a long time.
Mrs Grouch actually admitted that she had begun to fear for my sanity and that she was frightened that I would snap and do something silly like resign and leave us with no job and nowhere to live.
But, as I say, that is doesn't mean that I think that everyone should quit. Far from it. I have huge admiration for those who are continuing the battle. As always, we have to be alert to our own weaknesses and frailties. Sometimes we simply have to say "I have reached the end of my resources. I can do no more."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
If you leave, some homophobe somewhere will chalk up another self-righteous "victory". So, don't. Stay, and do good. Jesus didn't turn his back and walk away from the oppressed and those whom others despised, and neither should you. Change for future generations is only effected by those who work for it now.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
David, I did that for nearly 30 years. It wasn't the homophobes that were the problem, although they weren't very much fun. It was the so-called liberals, who variously wanted me to lie, sit still so I could be called names, and who ran away when the going got tough. When the people who are privately on your side but publicly unwilling to stand and be counted, it gets soul destroying very quickly. Not just a figure of speech.
Not all liberals, there were some blessed exceptions, but most. I knew where I stood with outright homophobes, so I could make preparations if I had some warning.
In my case, your suggestion equates to "stay and be assaulted again."
[ 11. February 2016, 20:22: Message edited by: Arabella Purity Winterbottom ]
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
David, I did that for nearly 30 years. It wasn't the homophobes that were the problem, although they weren't very much fun. It was the so-called liberals, who variously wanted me to lie, sit still so I could be called names, and who ran away when the going got tough. When the people who are privately on your side but publicly unwilling to stand and be counted, it gets soul destroying very quickly. Not just a figure of speech.
Not all liberals, there were some blessed exceptions, but most. I knew where I stood with outright homophobes, so I could make preparations if I had some warning.
In my case, your suggestion equates to "stay and be assaulted again."
Arabella, that's been my experience too. One of the first things I learned in the CofE is that it pays always to wear a knife-proof pad between your shoulder blades.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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