Thread: Hell: Depression Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Not sure whether this thread should be here or in All Saints: I'm fed up with intermittent fits of depression, but I also want to give a little encouragement to other people who get it as well, and there seem to be quite a few of us on the ship at present.

And by encouragement I emphatically don't mean telling anyone "There's light at the end of the tunnel", or "hang on in there" or "something will turn up" or "don't lose hope". I hate well-meaning platitudes. Sometimes the reasons for depression are precisely because there is no hope. There are some things in life you simply can't do anything about. You can't turn the clock back, bring the dead back to life, forget about a broken heart, or press a delete button to cancel out a chronic or terminal illness. Life isn't like that. Depression can be about having to accept the unacceptable just as much as a physical thing perhaps caused by stress, or tiredness, or a hormonal cycle or illness, or even just a serotonin deficiency.

Just don't give me crap about hoping for hope's sake. And don't just tell me that I'm being silly, dismiss me with "oh, you're just in a mood again", or tell me to snap out of it. Believe me if I could switch it off I would. It's no pleasure to me to struggle to suppress tears or to have my confidence plummet to the point where I can't face social contact or even write emails. I know I'm a bore during these times, I don't need to be told so. I just want people to behave as normal, not try to jolly me out of it and not just write me off. Depression is an isolating thing and this kind of reaction doesn't help.

So if this strikes a chord with anyone else out there - come and sound off. If you've found anything that helps (other than medication) someone else out there might find it useful too.

[ 25. April 2003, 16:04: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
I've suffered with 'depression' at various stages throughout my life. However the term means different things to different people.

I had to accept failing my exams at the end of first year at University. Incredibly hard. Self-esteem totally gone. But looking back, it wasn't depression. No magic solution. Just having to learn to accept the unnacceptable.

Similarly when my first wife walked out 25 years ago. No magic solution. Look at your own faults, (faults ? Do I have faults ?) and move on. Difficult ? Yes. Learning once again to accept the unnacceptable.

Learnt to limit my expectations of both myself and life.

But about 5 years ago on a computer course my brain just couldn't follow it. This was followed by huge anxiety attacks, sleeplessness, a horrow of having to get out of bed. Meltdown. Yes this was depression.

And only the week before I had boasted that I fitted 3 times as much into my life as everyone else.

Now I do half as much. I don't go out to meetings at nighttime, I walk on my own in the Woods. potter in the Garden or listen to Classical CDs. And I learnt to pray..

Please Lord look after me for the next 12 hours. Just 12 hours Lord. Please get me through the next night, the next day.

I'm balanced now. No more pills. (They were awful, Prozac was the worst.)

But Hell it was and I'm very scared that I might go back there one day.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :
 
The worst thing anyone ever said to me when I was depressed was "You'll snap out of it eventually"

Nobody who isn't depressed can understand what it's like to be depressed. And even now with my last serious manic episode 2 years behind me, I am starting to forget what it was like and descend to the realms of platitudes and stereotypes of myself.

Prozac didn't work, company didn't work, solitude didn't work and I still don't know what kept me going. I still have dark moments of paralysing fear when I get into old situations and every time I get through those situations without depression arising I should feel like I've beaten it for good. But I don't.

The only thing that helped me was the realisation one day that loads of people felt exactly the way I did. If I had to be like that, at least other people were suffering too. What a nasty thing to feel. There was no solidarity in it.

Read Prozac Nation, by Elizabeth Wurtzel.
If you're depressed it gives words to your feelings.
If you're not depressed it helps you begin to see what depression can be.

Just having someone who doesn't try to explain it, doesn't try to comfort you, doesn't try to snap you out of it, doesn't try to understand you, but who doesn't run when all you want to do is scream and dig your nails into your arms and sit on the floor in a corner crying and punching the wall and hoping against hope that tomorrow you just don't wake up...well...that might help too.

Jason
 

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Posted by Celaino (# 3913) on :
 
As GH said, everyone's experience is different, but what I've found helpful for intermittent plunges into depression is joining something which happens/meets regularly. I've found that sticking to doing something regularly - even when it's been the last thing I wanted to do - helps to even out the ups and downs, and provides a fixed point in the week to hang on to. I know this won't work for everyone, but for me building on how I feel during good periods carries over into the bad. It's not about going out and being the world's most sociable person, I certainly spend a great deal of time on my own, but having somewhere where you're recognised and needed can help immeasurably.

The above requires a certain amount of determination, and that in itself can make you stronger.

Love and sympathy to all here.
 

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Posted by flev (# 3187) on :
 
Thankfully my own experience seems to have been a relatively mild dose, compared with what others are saying, but I still get scared at the idea it might occur again.

I found two things that helped me get through it all. The first was finding an activity that I enjoyed doing, and that I had a small degree of responsibility for (please note the emphasis on small i.e. manageable). Then, when the worst phases came, and I reached the stage when I was trying to find reasons why I should try and hang on and keep on living, I felt needed by someone, and that to me was a very strong anchor - the thought that at least to them I had some worth. Friends trying to tell me that I had 'worth' to them didn't seem to be concrete enough - but for some reason, the fact I was turning up regularly to a playgroup to help amuse the kids did. (I'm not suggesting this precise activity, but I happen to love kids!).

Secondly, as IBP said, having someone, anyone around, who didn't try to talk me out of my feelings, but was prepared just to be there with me when I needed them.

flev
 

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Posted by Genie (# 3282) on :
 
At the risk of being entirely unhellish and potentially pissing off everyone else, I have to say that there may well be <simpering platitude> light at the end of the tunnel </simpering platitude> - it all depends on how you define 'light'. And I guess on how you define 'tunnel' as well.

I've always been a quiet person, but during my teenage years and most intensely in my A level years, I was very withdrawn and sullen, terrified of situations where I might have to be in the presence of other people. I could barely tolerate my imediate family, and school itself was torture. I hated myself most of all, and was engaged in a variety of self-destructive behaviours: self harm, anorexia, deliberatly stepping out into the road without looking, driving too fast etc etc etc. After the not-eating thing got too far and I started fainting in unfortunate situations (such as when someone else was watching) my parents forced me to see a doctor and I was diagnosed with endogenous (ie 'coming from inside' as opposed to 'reactionary to external events') depression and social phobia. Despite seeing a doctor, a social worker and a psychiatrist all on a weekly basis and taking various anti-depressants, I got worse. At one point the psyche tried to have me sectioned, but my parents wouldn't let him. (I was still barely a minor, so my parents were able to overrule the doctors)

I still can't pin down the point when things started improving. I was certainly the last person to notice. It certainly didn't happen on meeting my fiance, although that might have been a factor in things. It certainly wasn't leaving school or joining the wonderful world of work (if I hadn't had depression, I would be graduating from university this year). I'd like to say it was my faith, but that would be a lie since at the time I was pretty much as atheistic as they come. Something changed, and slowly but surely things didn't seem quite so bad anymore. I'm still at the mercy of chance and forces I can't control, and all the problems are still there - but somehow they don't overwhelm me any more. I began taking things one step at a time, controlling those things I could control, and slowly learning to let the rest slide without panicking. Some days all I could manage was having a bath and watching TV all day. Some days I couldn't even manage that and just lay in bed staring at the ceiling. I tried to take pride in even the smallest achievements, such as a whole afternoon gone by at work where I didn't end up crying in the toilets, or in making at least one corner of one room in the house look neat and tidy. I tried to give myself small treats as often as I could, and told myself that I deserved them even if I didn't believe it. Some days I decided the whole idea of trying was a waste of time and ate chocolate all day whilst eying up the contents of the medicine cabinet.

Once even I had noticed that I wasn't despairing any more, I started realising that there was something extra, something important I had been missing. Shortly after that God called me and I found faith. In all liklihood he was calling me well before that too, I just wasn't able to hear him.

Statistically, I'm likely to suffer at least one relapse into the pit. There are theories that there is no such thing as recovering from depression - in the same way as there's no such thing as a recovered alcoholic, only one that isn't drinking. But even if that's true, I'm content to be a 'happy depressive'. If I get dragged down there again, I know that I'm going there with the certainty of God's sovreignty and God's protection, and that having clawed my way out of it once, I can do so again. I think that I've also learned much about humanity from my time in the pit. Although I couldn't see it at the time, people around me in my family and at school were trying to help, they just didn't kow how. No matter how much I ignored them, avoided them, ran from them and shouted at them, they kept trying to chip through the shell I'd built around myself. Seeing some of the depths that misery can sink to has given me a better insight into the importance of helping others, and an insight into how sometimes even one person can make a difference for the better, simply by being there as a sounding board or verbal punchbag.

Certainly, life isn't a bed of sweetly smelling lavender (roses have thorns), and excrement just happens. There are no magic wands and no easy answers. I think, to a large extent, the biggest change wasn't in my circumstances, but inside me.
 

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Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :
 
Amen Sister/Brother
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
That was a wonderful post, Genie. Before this gets moved to All Saints. I want to add that depression is living hell. Some people are helped by medicine; for some no medicine can help. My husband is in the first category; he has been crippled with intermittent severe anxiety and depression since childhood. Finding a cocktail of psychopharmaceuticals that relieved some of the grief and horror of life and opened a window to human contact has changed his life immeasurably for the better.
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
I was depressed during my undergraduate student days, and every autumn marks a little down turn for me. As people have been writing I have been able to remember what it was like. I found that I had lost 'me'. I didn't know who I was, what I liked, what I didn't like, how I would react etc.

Something that helped me was taking control of one little area of my life. I was the one in control and only I had the right to make changes etc.

I also found it helpful to have people that I could chat with about non-feelings stuff. When things were bad I could talk about facts and experiments, but was not able to venture any opinions. Later I was able to give opinions, as long as they were technical opinions. Now I can be very opinionated.

If you do suffer from seasonal depression make sure that you talk about it with your doctor. Simple things like a change of diet, day-light simulation bulbs and more outdoor exercise can be very beneficial.

What ever the reason for your depression, I wish you well. I really hope that things improve and that you reach a place of contentment. (Apologies if that sounds condescending. It is most certainly not meant that way, nor is it meant to be a platiude.)

bb
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
It's easy enough to say it helps if you have someone there. It probably does help some people. It's not an option for me, and I'd find it intensely embarrassing anyway to have someone see me when I'm in the middle of a depressive period. Other people don't always handle it well in my experience: you can lose friends that way or people can use what you say to hurt you. I just keep it to myself as much as I can.

But oddly enough the longer depression goes on the more I find I start to query it. And slowly things do seem to be changing inside. And being honest with oneself is essential as is accepting your limitations and knowing that they may fluctuate.
 

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Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :
 
It doesn't help if you have someone there. It helps if you have someone who wants to be there. One thing for me was that I really needed to be needed. And I needed to be needed even though I was an emotional wreck.

Yes I was embarrased about the way I was acting, but the best point was knowing that that didn't matter to the someone that was there. It may not be an option to you, depression is a highly individual journey and nobody has the answer - people have bits of answers but nobody has IT.

Nobody can propose answers, all you can know is that people know. Hopefully you can get some flock mentality comfort out of that. You can get out of depression. You can get out of the cycle. It can be done, but how you achieve this is a product of your own life, nobody has your answer.

Try setting goals - I'll get through 1 day without an episode, 2 days... a week. Then when it goes tits-up start again, it's all you can do.
 

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Posted by homerj (# 324) on :
 
A formal appology from all of us who (tahnk God) do not suffer immediately from depression and have resorted to crap platitudes and trite comments...

Sorry

My wife suffers from depression. Drugs help a bit (we call them 'mad-pills', it used to be 'happy pills', but somehow the new name helps a little)

The reality is that, just as 'you' can't explain to 'us' how you feel and why, so 'we' can't understand what it is that we should/can do to help 'you' in anyway.

This means that, because I love my wife deeply, I am desperate for her to feel better, and try - in that stupid, stupid bloke way - to cheer her up sometimes, even though somewhere inside I know that it probably won't help, or may even make the situation worse. To hug someone as they lay there crying for 'no reason' is always a weird & frightening experience. You feel helpless, sad, angry, hopeless, desperate, confused, tired, and any number of other emotions. And you know that there is nothing that you can do... but that you must try in some small way.

My prayers are with you
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
I think I'll put something here, even though typing this in the college computer lab may not be the best idea. I'll expand more when I get home.

I sometimes suffer from depression, and have done on and off for the last 2 and a half years. So I can truly empathise with all of you hating the "You'll get better, there's hope" stuff others give. Have a look at this poem for some thoughts about that (no, I didn't write it).

I'll post more later. One of my friends has just sat down behind me and I don't want her to see.

Amorya
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Speaking as somebody who has stayed home "sick" from work for the last 2 days because I couldn't give a feck, I have to agree that depression sucks. Between the total lack of energy, lack of desire to do anything, and chronically being on the verge of tears, it's very wearing.

And I'm ON Prozac.

I don't have any good platitudes to hand over; I've given up on platitudes.

Lord have mercy.

Reader Alexis
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I think it is probably time to admit it here. My first dose of depression happened from my teen years. It was never diagnosed, and lasted for at least 10 years. My second started in September 2001 and is still ongoing ( being particularly bad between September and December, if you hadn't realised it ). At least that was diagnosed, and Prozac was effective in the first 6 months ( but I hated being on it, and had to come off ).

It seems to be that people who have not experienced it assume it is "just a bad patch" - as most people get occassionally. But no it isn't. It is paralysing and draining, and it is not "logical". You can tell me why I shouldn't be depressed, but I probably know anyway. It is not a choice we have, or a "state of mind" - it is an illness, and a serious one at that.

I need to stop now. I might be back.
 

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Posted by MarkthePunk (# 683) on :
 
I've suffered from depression a lot, mostly years ago (although I had a very out-of-the-blue sharp episode last Spring).

I'm seem to pretty much have depression beat. There's a lot of things that have helped -- Psalms, being sure I get my sleep, involvement in ministry among other things.

I think what helped me the most though is gritting my teeth and trusting God with my life. I was so scared that God was going to drop the ball on me, and that I would end up miserable. And that fear, especially about continuing singleness, was making me miserable.

I'm still quite single, but also quite content. I trust God, not some future marriage, to "grant me the desires of my heart." (from Psalm 37, a big one in helping me to trust) Trusting God with my life, instead of fearing life, is what finally pulled me out of chronic depression.

I'm NOT saying that's the problem/cure for all depression by any means. I certainly don't understand that episode this past Spring. But that's how God worked to lift me up. Thank God.
 

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Posted by marmot (# 479) on :
 
My friends, if all you have tried is Prozac, please talk to your doctor again. Selective seritonin reuptake inhibitors, of which Prozac is only one example, have changed a lot over the last few years.

Some work faster--Prozac takes 6-8 weeks to fully kick in, and most people quit before then. Many of the new drugs have fewer and milder side effects. It can also take a little while to get the dose right--most docs will start you on a small dose, which may not be fully effective.

For the seritonin-impaired, trying to get well on your own is like a diabetic trying to stay healthy without insulin. It is OK to accept medical assistance for a medical problem, even if has psychological symptoms.

You don't have to be debilitated by this awful disease, and you deserve a better life.

Please talk to your docs. There are lots of treatment options.
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by marmot:
Please talk to your docs. There are lots of treatment options.

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Alas, this is little help for those of us gone un-diagnosed. Unfortunately there's not much I can do about that one - in July 2000 I tried telling my parents (upon much prompting from the hosts of a site I visited), and they promised to help me then immediately forgot about it. I never dared bring up the subject again.

To anyone else: Marmot's right. We've studied all the options in Psychology class, and there's a whole range of different treatments (both psychological and biological), many having very high success rates.

Amorya
 

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Posted by Icarus Coot (# 220) on :
 
Also, though this is very rare - there may be another disorder complicating the depression... for instance a patient presents with what appears to be chronic severe depression... they report unusual sensory effects, the doctor hums, prescribes each new antidepressant as it gets approved for use to little or no effect. The patient is labelled and written off. Fortuitously, the doctor goes away on holiday and decides that the patient requires supervision during that time, so the patient is referred to another doctor who takes one look at the referral (atypical depression after all) and sends the patient off for an EEG. The EEG returns an anomaly and a diagnosis of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) is made: this is an odd type of epilepsy whose symptoms may include mood effects, therefore while depression was present, only about 50% of the problem was ever being treated. (There is the small matter of 16+ years of dysfunction, but it could be worse).

A correct diagnosis and appropriate medication helps.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
Ariel, the only cliche that's worked for me is that it has to be lived through. I hate, hate, hate my depression, but after two two-year stints with it (separated by 10 years) its the only thing that keeps me going. And gardening. One counsellor I saw suggested that every now and then I think of my feet, pay attention to them, just to give me a moment's respite - funnily enough, it worked.

Prozac has been superb for me, although it did give me the morning jitters for the first three months - made me playing the piano or organ at church exciting for the congregation.

And Homerj, it must be difficult but I don't think its particularly a bloke thing because my partner has the same problem. Uncontrollable weeping is hard to cope with from either side. So good on you for keeping on keeping on. Usually I just want to be held and not talked to, if that's any help.

I'm only just beginning to see things properly again. My wonderful GP told me (after he gave me a hug) that the problem with depression is that you make perfectly rational assumptions based on perfectly irrational negative premises. So your thinking is OK, just based in the wrong place. It worked for me as a way to try and see where I was losing it.

Kia kaha all you other depression heroes,
APW
 

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Posted by Qestia (# 717) on :
 
I've had bad times with depression in my life, two suicide attempts, I've discussed it before on the board awhile ago.

And I can't think of a single thing that helped me while depressed. It came as mysteriously as it went. It was defihnitely worst (meaning constant) in adolescence, perhaps it was tied, for me, with puberty somehow. No doubt beginning regular exercise, meals, meeting my spouse helped. All in all I just think I'm lucky. Very very lucky.

All I can say is when you're not depressed, you can remember what it's like when you are depressed, so you have some perspective. When I was depressed I thought happy people were fooling themselves. But I was so wrong about that; it's the other way around.
 

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Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
Depression sucks.

I went through it last year in a bad way, and no doubt it hit before in a more minor way.

What helped? Talking about it...having someone who would LISTEN [thank God for good friends] and not just give the "You'll be fine" spiel.

Drugs. Yes, it helped me get over the hard days, but I seemed to lose the ability to enjoy things either. I became indifferent: but it did help.

Cutting down on things: 4 nights a week I was learning languages; I was stressed at work; running around all weekend - trying to keep myself busy to keep my mind off it; yet it just caused me more stress. A few nice walks, swimming and curling up with a good book are now my main activities.

It's part of normal life for some people...but I wish sometimes it wasn't. Then again, it taught me to be more reliant on God as in Him only can I find true peace.

Thanks and thoughts to all who contributed to this thread and were brave enough to give their experiences.

Admiral.
 

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Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
I'm only just beginning to see things properly again. My wonderful GP told me (after he gave me a hug) that the problem with depression is that you make perfectly rational assumptions based on perfectly irrational negative premises. So your thinking is OK, just based in the wrong place. It worked for me as a way to try and see where I was losing it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eanswyth:
She then told me about her history of mental illness and for some reason I started feeling better. For no reason other than God's will, that seemed to be my turning point. Thanks be to God.

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That's the exact reason I've talked about my depression to so many people. The first person I told was knocked over by a feather about it and went on to share that she too was on anti-depressants. She couldn't believe she wasn't alone.

We've now started a depression support group within our parish - it has about 10 members and that's only a fraction of the people who have shared their mental health histories with me. I've got to the stage where I think it is way more common than I previously thought (I think the official figures say something like 1 in 4 people will suffer depression at some stage in their life - I'm going for 1 in 3).

Or maybe its just in churches that its so high. Now that's a terrifying thought.
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Or maybe its just in churches that its so high. Now that's a terrifying thought.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sean D:
I'm sorry for butting in, I feel a bit rude posting on this thread as I am not sharing an experience of depression. I have certainly had bad patches but not real depression. However, I wanted to say how humbled and gutted I was reading about all your experiences. I am typing with tears everywhere, very messy, and I wanted to say thank you so much for sharing so honestly. I have so much respect for you all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sean D:
I'm sorry for butting in, I feel a bit rude posting on this thread as I am not sharing an experience of depression.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I agree about the change of diet. Once I cut out sugar and caffeine and started eating more healthily, it helped quite a bit - especially with pmt, which has been something I've come to dread each month.

In fact, in November I went to the doctor about pmt but she didn't seem interested in any of the symptoms other than depression (never mind the irritability, insomnia, pains, flushes, irregularity etc), and I came away with a prescription for anti-depressants, which I didn't want. Reading the list of side effects horrified me, not least of all the realization that I would get worse before I got better. Having just spent a day in bed unable to do anything but cry and wish I was dead, I didn't dare risk taking them in case they sent me over the edge.

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I have been fortunate enough to not have suffered from depression, but I have horrific PMS/PMT. For three days of the month I would alternate between crying jags that lasted for hours and bouts of unbelievable rage when I couldn't trust myself to be around anything that could be used as a weapon (seriously).

About a year and a half ago my gynecologist put me on low-dose fluoxetine (aka Prozac, though my meds aren't sold under that name, 20mg). I noticed a marked improvement almost immediately. The only side effects I had were strange dreams for the first couple of weeks, then everything calmed down.

When I went back for my yearly exam last September, she told me to take a vitamin/mineral supplement called Optivite. The biggest difference between Optivite and other supplements is the extraordinary amount of B vitamins it contains, which do have effects on the nervous system. That took about three months of daily use before I noticed anything, but now, between the fluoxetine and the vitamins, my PMS is virtually gone -- still get the salt/chocolate cravings, but that's it. No irritability, no murderous rage, no depths of despair, no aches, no pains, no bloating, nada.

I realize that it doesn't work for everybody, and I'm not trying to sell fluoxetine on anyone. I say this just so that you know in some instances anti-depressants really do help with PMS.

</tangent>

[ 01. February 2003, 10:22: Message edited by: Erin ]
 

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Posted by Blue Fire (# 3824) on :
 
Wow, Eanswyth....that's amazing. Your discription of depression...especially the traps and evils in the dark room are exactly what I get too! I never realised it like that before. I don't get heavy depression very often, but it is just like that!!! I find if I can actually get the car to work , I'm ok. I teach one to one and each student forces me to concentrate on them and my own, often unexplained, fears recede. I now know that if I drag myself, kicking and screaming out the door, then I can survive another day. I bless everyday that is free.

On lightly depressed days, I like to visit my 'happy place' which is a beautiful grassy world with shallow blue pools and tall graceful trees. Jesus is under one of the trees talking to others and I can go and tuck myself on the edge of the group or stay where I am. I choose.
Sometimes, I just go and hold his his hand and he just looks at me with such love that I cry and cry.

Sometimes, I just sit on God's Hand. It's so large that I can't see the world and warm and soft.
I close my eyes, put my problems (even the ones I can't look at) onto a large tray and lift them up (I do actually lift my arms in real life too) and give them to him and they look so small on his hand. His hand then lifts them away. Thank you God.

God bless you all and keep you near the light as much as possible.
 

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Posted by MCC (# 3137) on :
 
Like Huia said "Pain is Pain".

I'm more prone to panic/anxiety, but have had spells of depression and lethargic avoidance of the world,and eventually did accept Prozac/fluoxetine. For me the list of side effects in the box need to be thrown away, I do note a drop in sexual "results" (shall we say), but none of the horrors that others have reported. It helps me get to work, and there I find I am occupied, and restore a belief in myself because I am mixing and performing. But I know that is just my experience, and I always come off as soon as possible. I Went on in December to deal with the latest cricis, but I would not describe it as any more than minor depression, just a horrid reaction to something going wrong.

Basically, for me, 11 years of therapy, and the tools it gave me, are of prime importance. Finding and expressing the underlying feelings (in my case linked to being an adult child of an alcoholic whose other parent died when I was 11), and working through them, uncomfortable as they are, and hopefully without abusing anybody as I express the anger , pain, loneliness, abandonment etc are the ways of dealing with these so called mental, though in my case, emotional problems.

Learning, somehow, to love myself, even when it seems difficult. And recognising the childish part of myself, playing, dreaming, and needing, can all help me.

My faith does play a part, I don't see miracles, but just hope God, in Christ, is alongside.

Thankyou all for sharing,

I only offer my experience, no platitudes intended.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
not sure what to say really.

me too.

hate it, wish i could understand it, wish other christians would not be puzzled after praying and it not all getting better overnight. Wish God would feel more 'real' and close in those times. Wish I knew what it was like to function on 90% rather than 10%. Wish my moods werent so variable. Wish i didnt self-harm. Wish it would all go away.
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 
Just to add I suffered from unrecognised depression throughout my childhood, adolescence and young adulthood and then postnatal depression for about 7 years. I also had anxiety/panic attacks which got worse and worse and I ended up living a very restricted life to avoid triggering them. Neither the depression or the panic were nearly as bad as some people's.

The thing that was most hard to cope with was people saying they didn't understand why I was depressed, or telling me how hard it was for them to cope with my depresssion.

The best thing anyone did was a friend who woudl turn up to see me regularly and get me to go out for half an hour a day when I was off work with it.

I am fortunate that through a (very long) process of medication, self examination and learning to manage stress I no longer live in fear of the plunge into the sort of experience described above. My heart goes out to those who are still under this threat. I remember that panic each time I needed to go and get more or different pills that one day nothing would work and then I would have to live with it forever.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

I was knocked badly off balance by the sudden death of my father when I was 16 (I had already just lost two other family members in the previous few months)...

---

Our younger daughter was sixteen when my husband died. I think that's the worst possible age for a bereavement. A teenager has an adult understanding of death but no adult philosophy or coping skills. She had to deal with the stark fact with no resources except the support of those who loved her.

Ariel, my heart goes out to you.

Moo
 

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Posted by Dolphy (# 862) on :
 
My heart goes out to all who have posted here. I have been reading this thread very closely and, although I told another Shipmate I was not going to post here, on reflection I am going to.
I too have been there, wrote the movie, bought the T-Shirt etc. Depression is dreadful. My first serious depression happened many years ago but I remember it all too vividly. I too have heard the snap out of it, there are people worse off than you, things can't be that bad sayings...but it was. It was hell. The tears, the lack of energy, the losing the will to live feelings, the hating myself moments - need I go on? I had, at that time, the most unsympathetic and patronizing doctor on the face of the planet. "Take these pills and you'll feel better dear".
I eventually got through it with the help of a very understanding friend who listened when I talked, hugged me when I cried and was there even if I wanted to be silent.
More recently, after my back operation and the events surrounding it I felt myself slipping back again. My wonderful (and sincere) doctor put me on St John's Wort and it really did help - there are a few side effects with it, but we all differ in our physical reactions to it. Fortunately, I was not on it for long and I have got through this episode.
I echo the Vitamin B idea, and also bananas are good due to the potassium they contain.
I admire you all for your courage to post here. Life is tough and things can really be cruel and unfair, whether that be personal or in general. I guess we must try to focus on the good things - and they are out there somewhere, IMHO, they are just sometimes hard to see at the time.
If I feel myself slipping back at anytime, I usually take my dog up the hill and look down on where I live and think ' you are all so small'. Sometimes helps to put things in perspective, well, for me anyway.
My prayers to you all.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Like Sean, I'm sending a big to all of you here.

Thankfully I've never suffered from depression, but for some reason I have lots of friends who do. (Hey, maybe it's me that's causing it... ) I really admire their courage and honesty.

So, for all of you (shouts) EXPECTO PATRONEM!

I'll be round with chocolate directly.
 

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Posted by Arch- (# 982) on :
 
Me too. A big hug and kisses for all who have posted. It is not easy and it takes a lot of courage. Being BAD myself(Bipolar Affective Disorder) I know of the depths to which you speak. I am just glad of the highs I get which do not compensate and which make me almost unbearable to my family, but which can be glimpses of wild, wild, heaven to me.
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
MCC, Welbutrin may help with those results.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
These are random thoughts - my reflections on my experience. Eanswyth - the image of a room with a door that you cannot find or get to is so powerful, and ( for me ) so true at my worst times.

Misapprehensions : Depression does not make you less of a person, less spiritual or a worse Christian. In fact, there are aspects of God that ONLY someone who has been though depression can fully appreciate. And why do you think Eccesiastes is my favorite book?

Things that help me ( they may or may not help others ) : St Johns Wort. Just enought to keep the absolute worst away. Particularly as I am OK for a lot of the time ATM, but need some help occasionally, this does a good job. If I take it early enough.

For me, one of the hardest things is not getting enough sleep. If I can actually get a good nights sleep, I am much more capable of dealing with the following day. However, codeine and alcohol containing mixtures I find dangerous - the former can give me nightmares, and the latter is a depressive itself. And I find it can be a serious problem.

I have found the situations that help and hinder me. For me being with people is great, but being out for the evening having a good time followed by going to my room alone was a major trigger for a down. But being alone for a whole day sends me crazy.
 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
til i mentioned it (probably here actually, or at CU) i thought i was the only Christian with Depression and that made me a bad person. I've realised i'm not alone, and that it doesn't make me a bad person/christian...
But i know now that in my cell group there were 3 of us suffering from similar problems...my best friend is in hospital, other people i grew up with and played with for most of my life are all suffering with similar things...
and so few people understand enough to help, or recognise signs...
it really upsets me seeing friends hurt, i remember the first time i saw cut marks on one of my friends arms, in the college chaple...i was shocked...i thought i had been alone. She thought she was alone. She got through it and mentioned it in a talky bit in the outreach cafe type place i run, and the youth leader paniced...
There were so many people in that room who were touched by that, christian and none christian...

AND THEY HAD NO-ONE TO HELP THEM.

And it really really really angers me that people who are hurting are sometimes abandoned and treated as outcasts. especially if the church is involved.
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
I don't know if this will help. I offer it at as a thought for pondering.

I saw a Pyschiatrist once who said..

The one who suffers with mental problems, depression etc. is usually the most sensitive of the group.

They are usually reflecting other family or group problems, in his opinion.

If someone was refered to him, he always wanted to see the whole immediate family to try and get at the root cause.

Treating an individual in his opinion was wrong if they lived as part of a group.

The above may not apply to you.

However it does not suprise me in the least that people who are drawn to Christianity are affected and hurt by circumstances, events, other's actions, Mans inhumanity to Man etc.

Sensitivity is a Gift not a burden.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
Garden Hermit, I like your post immensely. There is definitely a correlation I have seen between people I would consider sensitive, and the propensity for them to suffer from depression.

Sensitivity, mind you, should be looked at not it how touchy-feely a person is, because I think a lot of crass people are sensitive. But sensitivity, to me, means that a person will take things personally, will react emotionally even to something that doesn't directly touch them. Just look at the varying degrees of hurt on the Columbia thread in Purgatory, or to the different ways people deal with conflict on the ship. Some can make or read a harsh comment, walk away from the computer, and let it go. Some of us limit our postings in Hell because we know that it will be with us for a while.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sophs:
And it really really really angers me that people who are hurting are sometimes abandoned and treated as outcasts. especially if the church is involved.

---

A few years ago the pastor of one of our more conservative Baptist churches committed suicide. Nobody knows why, but we suspect it may have been because he couldn't live with the judgmental stuff that was going on in his congregation. He was a nice guy.

But we were horrified at what happened afterwards. The youth group were called together to talk about it. One of the youth group leaders said to the group, "If any of you feel the slightest inclination to suicide or to bad depression, please, please, please, come and talk to us." The other leader reacted with horror and shouted, "If they feel anything like that they're not trusting Jesus enough. They should take it to Jesus."

An example of some good old-fashioned psychotic religion. I think being able to talk to people is paramount. Yes, I talk to Jesus, but unfortunately Jesus doesn't always help with medication, and some of Jesus' fan club are a bit silly about practical problems.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I think I am going to just let it all hang out here...if I sound more loopy and weird, plus angrier than usual, don't worry about it.

My mother's uncles BOTH killed themselves (my grandma's brothers). The second time, my uncle was 5 years old, my grandmother had him climb into the room and them come back to report on him. He said to her "he looks pretty dead".
My uncle to this day has such dark humor that he joked about 9-11 in a Christmas postcard that year in a way I can't even begin to describe. He felt it was ok to write (or let his wife write) "baby delayed due to miscarriage" when his son's wife miscarried on the Xmas card he made fun of 9-11 on. That side of the family is so seriously repressed, it has crept into my life and I have to fight the same tendencies DAILY. People I date always think I don't love them, my roomate thought I don't like her singing...I just never get very excited IRL in person. I can't still make happy faces and stuff on the internet. When some of you meet me, you might notice this. I have a pretty expressive face though that reflects every single emotion though which causes many to jump to conclusions.

My grandma once had a vein burst when she was visiting us in Hollywood Fla. She laughed hysterically as the blood hit the ceiling. It wasn't funny. That is the kind of crap I was raised with. Grandma coped for many years by hard core drinking and abusing Rx pills. My mother learned from her mother the words I do not like to hear...

"Quit carrying on!" I got told that when my Rev. grandpa died (my FATHER's dad, not my mom's) and I cried. My mom felt I was carrying on. She also brought up for years how "I kept talking to my friend Pauline when she laid in the casket". I finally lost it at dinner a few nights ago and my brother's wife had to restrain me. I realised my mom can not change overnight...my mom also tried to back pedal pathetically. She is getting older and no longer a hard ass, pardon my French, as much as she once was.

My dad's side of the family...my Rev. Grandpa once drowned some kittens in front of my dad since they couldn't keep them. Him and his wife thought it was ok to lock my dad in the closet for hours to punish him.

All this crap passed down to me. I had mental breakdowns in my teens and also in my early twenties. I got consuling up the wazooo...I also ate a lot of vitamin B (when I was in London, I took tons of this to allievate my fear of being away from home and dealing with the 1989 earthquake. I got this vitamin at a place called Boots, it was really cheap).

After 5 years in Alnon, I left since I felt I could. I now deal with EVERYTHING. I talk about IT ALL only though with people I trust. Many do not have the ability to not judge the hell out of you when hearing you talk about your feelings.

I learned my anxiety lessens when I know what is causing them. Also when I can escape somewhere...the open grass, beach..etc. I also stare at pretty pictures (yes, Thomas Kincade helps). I also write in a journal.

My family has the dry, black humor of my uncle. It gets to me sometimes, but they don't seem to be as far gone as him, thank God.

Trying to love people without judging them is very hard. I can't say I do that perfectly but I am trying to learn.

My relationship with my roomate has gotten real good since we talk very openly with each other without name calling. My family has figured out that I leave when they decide to name call, so the relationship with them is better. I found that engaging in the name calling like I did for years did not good but leaving them and refusing to talk to them until they stopped worked. things are much better than they were like some years ago, when we would all fight all the time (BIG SCREAMING, coming over to my apt at midnight to take the car they loaned me, blah blah).

I still though have days where I cry for no reason for a long time...when I can't sleep much at night, have bad dreams. I just get through it. I tried St. John's Wort, just makes me burn in the sun (doesn't help me)...vitamins do help, I take a ton of horse pills.

I also have come on hear and been all depressed...and some caring shipmate has more than once asked "are you OK?" especially when my boss was trying to fire me. I think I cope by wearing my heart on my sleeve...I don't cover up much emotion, but paradox...I have a hard time expressing it. Saying I love you is hard...hugging...etc. But I do try.

I say all this because I believe my depression has been helped by my research. The more I learned WHY the better I understood. Having 2 uncles both take their lives at an early age affected my family still to this day. Suicide SUCKS.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I apologized if I share a little too much. I didn't mean to kill this thread. I am not good sometimes at putting things into words and I hope I didn't scare anyone else off from posting.

Now, back to the salt mines at work...
 

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Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
Duchess, please don't ever apologize for sharing such real experiences! It is a refreshing change to have a thread where people do precisely that! Depression and family madness affects so many of us, and in so many different ways. Thank you for sharing your story. I think it is the biggest step in identifying precisely what you want to avoid, change, improve, learn from.

And Duchess, sharing honestly is "gonna make everything, pretty momma, gonna make everything alright." Well, it's a start atleast.
 

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Posted by angelus domini' (# 2343) on :
 
Thank you. I npoticed this thread on Thursday just before I left work, and wanted to read it. I've spent the past 20 mins looking for it, then there it was, suddenly on the 'most recent thread to be posted on' section.

Thanks again.

AD x
 

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Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
Hey Duchess!

There's a very important principle in your post, which you may not be aware of.

It's this: You cannot change other people, you can only change yourself.

You're already doing this in walking out the room instead of joining in the name-calling. The thing is, if we change our behaviour, it quite often can lead to chnage in others, but it isn't guaranteed. If you want someone to change, you can just go on and on banging your head against a brick wall, in frustration.

My Dad used to shout a lot at me as a child. As an adult, I started shouting back. We'd have some real ding-dongs. However, after counselling, I just walked out the room. I'm free to live as Jesus wants me to, I'm not forced to join in with negative destructive behaviours.

You've made a lot of progress, Duchess. Be proud of yourself.

I believe the black humour in your family, is a coping mechanism. Remove the humour, and worse things could happen, like breakdowns. The black humourist has a lot of pain inside, remove the coping mechanism, and a can of worms is opened. If you understand this, you may be able to put up with it.

Love in Christ,
Christina
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
I think I am going to just let it all hang out here...

---

* HUG * HUG * HUG *

David
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
heathen mama - And I ain't got no worries 'cause I ain't in no hurry at all
I can see you get it...part of my own recovery is to share things instead of stiling them...and also to figure out the whys of my history. I also am glad I didn't end up like my great-uncles, I have been THAT depressed and fortunately, never tried to commit suicide (albeit I would take big risks like driving drunk, letting people drive me drunk...in my teens and early twenties, something I am ashamed to say now)

ChristinaMarie - You are so right...you can not change people. (I learned that in 12 step programs). I meant to say people look to you to teach them how you want to be treated...end result, setting boundries. Walking out on someone being abusive is hard, many times they will resent you for it. Sometimes though like in my family's case, they eventually learn. Good for you, for not joining your dad in the negative behavior. Since we have Jesus in our lives, it is our duty to show His light to people. I am proud of myself, thanks...and also amazed at what God has done in my life to heal me and also help those around me. I might add, I am not perfect...there were times I fought back and screamed at people...times I would like to forget.
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. That is how it is to learn new behaviors and crawl out of despair.

I know also that I am prone to depression (it is in my genes)...and that I have a choice to handle it. Plus also I watch out for it in my brother's kids and also if I ever have children.

I really push a journal, it really helps. I heard on the Oprah show it is as good as 100 dollars an hour therapy if you write stuff down. Even one sentence...if it that hard to write, it very illuminating. I am a tactual person, I need to write by hand, not type, to get it all out.

BTW, about Tony Robbins, I read his book years ago, did a list of 10 years ago, years ago, present day, 5 years later, 10 years later. I make twice as much money as I did then and also work on my music (only one song in production but want to make more). I am also finally tackling my weight. Tony is a great guy, if he has big teeth and "banana hands" (from Shallow Hal, the movie...Hal told him he had "banana hands"). That movie cracked me up since I was familiar with Tony Robbins. I highly recommend it. it is pretty black humor though, be warned. (I enjoyed the humor).

Since my mom told me about my uncle finding his uncle dead, I am able to stomach my uncle's weird black humor more. He is also dry and unresponsive which use to tee me off also he laughed out loud at a snippet of cassette of me singing Aretha Franklin on VHS that my family played for him years ago. The more you know about people...sometimes not always, the more that they mmake a little more sense.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Yesterday, I got little done at work, was very distracted, and I got REALLY down. Thankfully I am better today, but it was really, really rough. Ugh.
 

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Posted by bessie rosebride (# 1738) on :
 
My mom died of suicide when I was 30. She was 55. She took all the left-over medications she had (quite a lot, since all her physical symptoms were treated as psychological; various antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds, sleeping pills, narcotic pain pills) and lay in an irreversible coma for 3 weeks.

That same year my beloved uncle dropped dead of a heart attack at 49. My grandmother died before Christmas, crying that no mother should have to bury both her children.

I was working nights full time as a nurse and raising 2 small children virtually alone, because my husband had decided he wanted to work about 100 miles away. I was so grief stricken and depressed, but had no clue how sick I was.

My husband would come home on the weekends and tell me to "stop behaving like this", "if you don't snap out of it, I'm going to leave you and take the kids". He believed psychiatry was akin to witchcraft and he wasn't going to pamper me in any hocus-pocus.

The next year we divorced, which was like the last straw for me.
It took me several years of therapy before it dawned on me that he had been abusive and this hadn't been "all my fault".

I think the stress and torment from all these events caused my illness to flare up. Mental illness was in my genes and I had a tough time as a teenager especially, but never had full blown episodes til all this occured.

Now I know that I must sleep nights and work days (upsetting my circadian rhythm makes me depressed fast). I try to avoid stress and fatigue like the plague. This means I have to live a rather sheltered life of avoidance in order to stay on a fairly even keel emotionally. I feel marginal in every respect.

I can't take any antidepressants - I've tried most and they flip me to mania. I'm not a candidate for the anti-mania drugs due to medical constraints. So I'm grateful that I can cope and maintain as well as I do.

I am finally in a church that believes in reality. I don't have to fake happiness, health and peace as I did in some Charismatic churches. They really had the attitude that if you were depressed or afraid; "something must be wrong with your walk with God."
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Yesterday, I got little done at work, was very distracted, and I got REALLY down. Thankfully I am better today, but it was really, really rough. Ugh.

---

Hug!
 

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Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
bessie and dutchess...(((hugs)))

Thank you both for sharing so much, so freely.
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
Any chance you folks could PM your hugs? They clash with the decor.

For a moment, I thought you folks had mentioned TOM Robbins. Now, that fellow always helps me when I feel depressed...
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Rook, you're just jealous of our virtual hugs, darling. ;P

Admrial, thx. I Pm'd you with offensive action item.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
darn it...meant to make that a not a ;P
well, ;P is something I invented. I hate preview post, it can kiss my depressed a**.
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
I've only just discovered this thread, and found it almost unbearably moving. May God have mercy on us all.
 

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Posted by Lots of Yay (# 2790) on :
 
I've been reading this thread since it started and was going to post immediately but as I have a habit of killing threads (I don't mean to!! It's just my bland personality) I thought I should wait until it was a bit more established before I said anything. Now watch it plummet to page 5...

Despite my screen name, I too am not always a particularly happy person. I added my sig a couple of weeks ago because it seemed a bit stupid to be Lots of Yay when I wasn't really.

I think I'll tell my story before I move on to why depression sucks and how stupid it is. I'll put a little when I get to the end of the story bit so you can just scroll straight to the rant bit if you have a short attention span!

I'm not sure when my depression started. Some time in high school maybe. It's hard to know where the transition from "quiet and withdrawn" to "depressed and angry" occurred. However for about the first 18 years of my life I never talked to anyone about touchy feely stuff. I was a bit of a nigel (in Sydney dialect this is someone who has no friends in case anyone's wondering), felt that I was most likely the ugliest person alive, had a sense of humour that no-one seemed to understand and had the general impression that I was a loser. Sometime around the end of school I stopped eating... more on this later.

I don't think that what would be classified as clinical depression actually started until I started to deal with stuff and talk to people. Obviously I was screwed up beforehand to some extent but because I had chosen to ignore a lot of stuff that had happened, it was just sitting inside me somewhere, waiting to be called on.

So yes, enter a friend who sees the importance of talking. This friend eventually gained my trust to the point where I told her a lot of stuff. This was all very well but I think dealing with a lifetime of issues all at once is possibly not the best way to go about it. Here began what I like to call 'the worst year of my life'. Which was also first year uni. I became totally dependent on this friend, had lost about a quarter of my body mass, spent a lot of time crying and injuring myself and generally going round in circles. Various medical friends told me that I had depression and should see a doctor but I was too scared to for some reason. This was a bit stupid of me.

I was also totally confused about my faith and what I believed and who I was and all sorts of things like that.

In short - it sucked.

The worst year of my life ended in September '00. Two things happened. The first was a weekend away with a Christian group from uni. It was a women's weekend and the topic was "Who am I". The take home message was from Colossians 3 that we are chosen, dearly loved, holy and called to peace (and maybe something else). I spent quite a lot of time sitting on some grass under some trees next to a lake (one of my favourite settings) contemplating and realised that I could go one way or another. I realised that I had to trust God rather than putting all my trust in this friend.

The second thing that happened was about a week later. I received an email from the friend saying that she didn't want to be a Christian anymore and as such we had nothing in common anymore so good bye. This was upsetting (very much so) but if this hadn't happened I don't think I could have truly recovered from that bout of depression because the temptation to let her control my life would have been too strong for me. We are now reconciled again which is cool.

I still have bouts of depression however. Sometimes in response to stuff happening in life, sometimes for no discernible reason. These are the most frustrating I think. Thankfully the eating stuff is resolved. This made a big difference to emotional state.

End of long boring story!

Depression sucks because it makes you lose your grasp on reality. It debilitates you in so many ways. There's the suicide factor. There are the Christians who assume that you're not holy enough. There are the spontaneous tears for no apparent reason. And the other physical symptoms that don't seem to be logically related to depression.

I think one thing that really helped me was knowing how many other people had depression. It seemed like everyone I talked to had some experience of it. Why is so little said about it in Christian circles when it seems like about 50% of Christians have depression?

I don't have any particular method for dealing with depression when it happens. If I'm doing too much, I generally cut back on stuff. If I'm not doing enough I try to do a bit more. If there are people who get me down I avoid them. If there's no reason I wallow in self pity for a while then call a friend and whinge about it. Thankfully now it doesn't last a year at a time.

Okay. Enough said. Apologies for such a saga. I will return to everlasting sentences now.
 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
(to life in general)

 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sophs:
(to life in general)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sophs:
(to life in general)

---

(((((Sophs)))))

Arohanui (Maori for "big love" - a bit untranslateable really)
 

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Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
((sophs))

((Lots of Yay))

I too had the problem of being very withdrawn and having no real friends in high school [the ones I thought were friends dropped me like a lead balloon the day the last HSC exam finished - I then realised they only were my friends because I'd help with maths, english, etc].

Then at Uni, two people came along who really wanted to be my friend - I guess I was making up for lost time: I shared everything with them - perhaps too much; I was scared of being used again; I was up and down for three years - happy to suicidal to happy. I can't believe they stuck with me through it, but they did.

Yet still, in moments of depression, doubts come again. Damn this depression!
 

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Posted by lapensiera (# 4057) on :
 
Hi all, new poster ... i have a constant battle with depression myself - makes university a pain in the neck, i know! ... have also been rather taken advantage of in a relationship or two - also no fun and no help at all ... which, neither are some church people's attitudes (as has been pointed out). i remember far too well being told (in a rather charismatic, happy-clappy church) that i just wasn't reading my Bible &/or praying quite enough and if i would just do that then all would be well ... not hardly - what's helped is coming back to the church where i grew up, which in the interim has gotten a more active young adults ministry and a counselling center with staff trained in both secular and religious counselling practices. also, i have found the realization, however dim, that perhaps God does not mean me to feel horrible forever - a little vague, but it works. i've tried medication, and have had to go off of it due to circumstances - but without that community around me and some strange iron will within me, i'd not have had the courage to do either.

speaking of that - for those of us who are in the midst of these same struggles, may grace and faith strengthen us and infuse that desperately needed hope ... for those who are reading in with us, thank you for your compassionate responses - you are the community of hope to someone (or more than one), whether only here or also IRL. reading this thread (and this board in general) has given me laughter, shared sorrow ... all in all, a refreshing reminder of the community of Christ throughout the world. looking forward to wild, wooly, freewheeling, thought-provoking conversations ... that's kinda become a theme for me - i can't kick the bucket yet, i haven't worked out all my theology ...

grace & peace (yes, even in Hell )

lapensiera
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
I notice that several of the posters say that Christian churches can be too judgemental and feel 'something is wrong between you and God' if you suffer with depression.

I agree it comes over like that sometimes but when I confess that I suffer with depression to other Christians (normally only when there is no-one else about) then this seems to release a deep confession from the other person who I thought was as 'normal' as they come.

Last month a lady aged about 75. after I said I wasn't having a good day, suddenly told me about all her 'cutting up' back before the War, which she had apparently never told anyone about.

I'm now coming to the conclusion that there is only a very few people in this world who haven't got any problems that are secretly screwing them up. Another problem no-one will talk about is 'non-consummation of marriage'.

Maybe as well as depression I've also got the courage to talk about it now and that is helping others to come to terms with their problems and hidden grief. So maybe I've (probably God not me) has turned into positive.

I do think that talking to another caring person about whatever worries you does halve the problem. But it won't get rid of it.

I think that maybe it's not us who have the problems. It is the world where to make mistakes or be weak is regarded as a 'Sin'. Even worse is that the male 'macho' culture has now been grafted onto girls as well, with all of them now trying to 'act hard' and be successful.

After my big 'down' a few years ago, I started looking at Jesus in a different light. What about the phrase 'his powers left him and he had to go away from his disciples'. Sounds like I felt in the midst of my depression.

Did Jesus suffer with depression ? Shock, horror.

Best wishes to you all.
 

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Posted by spoike (# 4044) on :
 
this is my first post. hi everyone.

this is probably a bit heavy for a first post but this thread was what convinced me to register and stop lurking.

to put my story in brief form (coz i'm not in a self analysis place at the present time) i used t be very bubbly, planned a future where i needed to have lots of energy and then got glandular fever which progressed to M.E. i was offered anti-depressants at this time but refused because i saw it as not trusting god to heal me and help me cope and whatever! ( i was a very annoying christian). since then have had episodes of depresssion all varying in length and severity. and a major change in job choice.

i am still a very annoying christian but not in the same way anymore, in fact almost in entirely the opposite direction. i frequently doubt that god actually exists and the whole 'does god love me' debate was settled a long time ago by my denial to ever think about it! Perhaps not to be advised.

i have a fantastic husband (probably the best hudband in the world) who helps me so mch more then he will ever realise or be able to admit to for fear of forgetting what it was that made him so great and then getting it wrong.

im not sure i have a point to make here, but i thought i would have to put something on this thread because it feels that depression is such a major part of my life now.

i do still believe although i have too many questions about god, church, the bible etc to ever feel completely happy about it. i have lost any joy that i had - will i be ill until i find it again, or do i not really understand what joy is. do others who are depressed have joy?

don't know how to sign off, so i'll leave it here.
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
There is a tale which may help some readers.

'Why did God make the world round ?

So that Human Beings can't see too far ahead.'

It does contain some truth.

And after my bout of depression, I really only try to look one day ahead at a time. I can only handle one day's problems at a time. God only seems to give me enough strength for today.

Yes I do have 'Joy' sometimes but its usually totally unexpected and not organised by me. And its fatal for me to try and organise 'joy' or pleasure because it doesn't seem to work. In fact the contary usually applies.

It seems to help me.

But everyone is different and we are all so vulnerable in so many different ways.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Hi spoike, and thanks for posting and sharing with us. I'm glad you decided to register and delurk. Feel free to wander round the Ship posting wherever and whenever takes your fancy

Viki, hellhost
 

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Posted by Warrior Tortoise (# 2682) on :
 
I myself also suffer from bouts of depression. The biggest thing I found to help me was my friends. As many of you have said, to be accepted when sobbing your heart out is sometimes the only thing that will help. Just to be hugged, held, listened to when all you feel is despair is sometimes all that's needed. Being left alone also helps too of course.

I lived on my own for 4 years and these were my loneliest times. I started to suffer from panic attacks whilst I was in college and when I lived on my own they got decidedly worse. So much so that I was agrophobic.

Fortunately my Mother helped me after she witnessed how low I had got and on her suggestion I now see a pyschotherapist.

That was 2 years ago and I am so much better. As my friends (who are also shipmates) know I do sink sometimes, but it's good to know that they're there to help.

I struggle with Spoikes joy question. Mainly because it never seems to be consistent in my life. I often think about how I could make it last and find myself thinking that all I need is company, a husband, a family. But it scares me that if I do find these things it may not change and what would I do then.

However, I know Spoike and she's one of the reasons that I can carry on and she's someone who I can laugh my heart out with.

Bless you all for being so open and honest.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
A few random thoughts on reading the above posts:

I don't know where they get the figure of 1 in 3 people suffering from depression at some time in their lives: I think the actual figure is higher than that. I don't think I know anyone who hasn't had their life touched by it at some point for whatever reason. And no, it isn't a particularly Christian affliction.

I would say that depressed people don't have joy. It's like being tired in spirit. Things you were actively interested in just don't have the same appeal any more, you don't have any enthusiasm to want to try anything new, before you know it life has shrivelled into a few basic activities. Life isn't particularly painful, it's just an interminable drag. In fact I'd say that the inertia of depression is ultimately far more insidious and damaging than the feelings of isolation which are more immediately painful.

I'd say that joy isn't consistent in most people's lives, although if you are in the right frame of mind anything can be an excuse for joy and a sense of God. At present I'm not at all sure that there is a God and I am wondering whether I haven't just wasted the best years of my life in pledging myself to what I understood to be the divine force. Why we have to grow through pain. And so on. But these are questions more suited to Purgatory than this thread and I won't pursue them here.
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
At the risk of sounding pretentious, do Hamlet's words ring bells with other people?

quote:

---

O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
It's like being tired in spirit. Things you were actively interested in just don't have the same appeal any more, you don't have any enthusiasm to want to try anything new, before you know it life has shrivelled into a few basic activities. Life isn't particularly painful, it's just an interminable drag.

---

I remember points where I just couldn't get the mental energy to do anything. I'd think about doing it, the actual impetus to do it just wasn't there. It was a 'breakdown' in almost a mechanical sense; it seemed nothing was firing so I couldn't get going.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Reading your posts, Arietty and Ariel, it struck me yet again that the Church of England suffers corporately from clinical depression. Maranatha!
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 

 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
Ariel, at times I find it uncanny how we think along such similar lines. Then I remember football, and politics, and space flight and realise there are some differences after all!

Oh, and Amos? Ariel is many things, but she has never shown any signs of being an Anglican .
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Oh, and Amos? Ariel is many things, but she has never shown any signs of being an Anglican .

---

I thought Amos was just observing that the experience of being rendered inert that Ariel and I had described was eerily reminiscent of the corporate behaviour of the C of E. I didn't think she was accusing either of us of belonging to the C of E.

That would have been cruel.
 

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Posted by Atlanta (# 2659) on :
 
I have suffered from Depression since I was 16, and have been taking Medication On and off for all that time,

I am now wanting to stop taking them ( again) but am terrified that i will fall into Decline yet again,

There have been Huge positive changes in my life over the last few months and I know that i now have the support that i've needed for so long,

So i'm giving it a go, pray for me and others in the same position

One way i found to cope with" those days" was to make a short list of things to do for that day( maybe only 3 or 4 things)And look on each one as an achievement,and not worry about anything else that needed doing, eventually i was taking on more tasks without even realising, Hope this helps
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Altanta - hugs and prayers for you. Keep us in touch, and remember we are all here for you.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Appreciated the honesty of so many of the above posts. And identified with a lot.

One thing someone told me is that depression is frozen anger.

What does anyone think?
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Out of Therapy, I was told it is repressed anger by a professional. I tend to believe that. That is one of the reasons I express myself a lot...I find my depression goes down. It's about sharing what is on your mind, but in a Christian manner (something I sometimes forget). I just wrote an old classmate an apology for that very reason (I offended him with my lame humor). It is a tricky thing, walking the tightrope of expressing thyself.
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
This may be a total divergence but over the last weekend the BBC has run a lot of 'violence in the home' problems. This has all been along the lines 'Violence is bad so stop it' rather than how do we deal with all these pent up problems we all face.

Violence (physical and verbal) may be the opposite side of the coin to depression.

Maybe it's so ingrained in us Christians that 'letting go', eg breaking plates, swearing, stamping etc is such a bad childish thing we can't let go when we really need to.

Over-turning a few tables actually might be a good idea.

But we all live in a Society which prevents more and more things. Don't swear, don't be sexist, don't be racist, don't be etc.

Maybe playing rugby and football for example got violence out of men/boys.

Just as a final thought, - I've found that spending a day down my allotment digging makes me so tired. I'm not depressed, I'm not anything accept shattered. Nothing matters accept sleep.

Maybe physical activity, - running, jogging, walking, cycling, digging is part of the answer.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I have heard that but you might also argue that equally anger is just expressed depression. Yes, sometimes it can be turned around and expressed outwards, sometimes it's helpful, but I don't think it's always true to say depression is repressed anger. Certainly I wouldn't say people with serotonin deficiencies (or whatever) are just suffering from repressed anger.
 

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Posted by doug (# 474) on :
 
I think that someone defined depression as anger directed at the self..

I think that has been my experience and my inability to properly channel anger (and other emotions) in an appropriate way instead of bottling it up has contributed to some really fun times

I suppose that, for me, realising that sometimes its *ok* to be angry about something (without having to say or do anything you might regret) was an important turning point.

love and hugs to all,

d.
 

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Posted by Fr. Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Dear Doug

That is my take on SOME forms of depression as well. There are other forms, chemical, chronic anxiety, existential angst etc. etc. Not all these forms are susceptible of the same solution. On your example though, our culture doesn't easily allow people to be angry. Christianity hasn't been too good about anger either. Being angry is OK so long as you can tag it and channel it. The alternative (repression) is far worse and psycchologically very damaging as you yourself have said. I endorse that from my own experience as well. The key warning indicator is if we feel that our love and our aggression have become too disjoined.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Maybe it's so ingrained in us Christians that 'letting go', eg breaking plates, swearing, stamping etc is such a bad childish thing we can't let go when we really need to.

Over-turning a few tables actually might be a good idea.

---

A friend of mine who raised five children told me a nice story.

After the birth of the third, her grandmother brought her a box of cracked and chipped dishes. She said, "There will be times when you feel like breaking something. Here are some dishes for you to break. When you need more, tell me and I will bring them to you."

The symbolism was much more important than the dishes themselves. Her grandmother was telling her it was all right to want to break things, and that all mothers feel that way sometimes.

Moo
 

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Posted by Jengie (# 273) on :
 
Dear Doug

From personal experience I can give you the following answer. No depression is not anger turned towards yourself but anger towards yourself does make depression much worse. It will be interesting to see if I agree with that in a few months time.

I can tell you how it was and how it is. About ten years ago I guess I started getting depressed, unfortunately at the time I f***d things up as well. That led to a me directing alot of anger and guilt at myself. That resulted in things being a lot worse. If people talk about things going grey with depression, for me everything went black and the black became sticky. It felt not just as if I was drowning in an emotional sea but as if the sea had a major oil slick in it. I think it is quite possible that my clinical depression technically never got past the mild but the guilt and anger that I directed at myself complicated things so at times I was suicidal. My father eventually bullied me into counselling (my father is normally the non-directive of my parents) and there was what I take to be a miraculous intervention by God. Even so an even keel was not something I could assume for years afterwards, as ever so often the black oil slicked tide would come rolling in again. However it never stayed.

Recently I have started paddling back along the shores of depression. This time however as of yet I have not messed things up. The waters are chilly and I yes things are having a grey winter fog over them. It feels like a continual haze of tiredness. However the oil slick is not there and for that I am truly grateful.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Warrior Tortoise (# 2682) on :
 
Ironicall my therapist would agree with you, Out of Therapy that depression is frozen anger. Grnted my depression is not as severe as some peoples on this thread, but that's where my particular problems have arisen from.

I ws brought up in a Christian household where it wasn't Ok to shout and scream and swear and that's all I really wanted to do sometimes. Because I couldn't I turned it in on myself.

With the gardeneing/rugby suggestion many Mental Health workers suggest that physical activity is a good way to help yourself. I must admit that after an hour digging in the garden or a good hard game of squash I do feel decidedly better. I think it may something to do with burning up the excess adrenalin (or some such bodily chemical) that's coursing round your body.

The only difficulty is finding the energy to start in the first place.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
I agree, Warrior Tortoise, that there's a problem in finding the energy to start. For a while when I was in my most depressed times I didn't have the energy to face anything. I think some medication and seeing a counsellor have helped me get to the point of being more angry about things, not just pretending the issues don't exist and struggling to carry on regardless somehow.

At the moment I am in a stage where things seem less hopeless, and I have been able to make some positive changes in my work situation and living circumstances which are helping.

But though I am more 'in touch with my anger' I'm not exactly sure what to do with it, and it is a bit scary what might happen if I really let rip, though I think the most likely scenario is that I'll end up a crumpled crying heap in a corner somewhere. The other scary thing is what will happen then.

Will I just go back to suppressing things and being more depressed again?
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
This may be a total divergence but over the last weekend the BBC has run a lot of 'violence in the home' problems. This has all been along the lines 'Violence is bad so stop it' rather than how do we deal with all these pent up problems we all face.

---

quote:

---

Violence (physical and verbal) may be the opposite side of the coin to depression.

(snip)

Over-turning a few tables actually might be a good idea.

---

quote:

---

But we all live in a Society which prevents more and more things. Don't swear, don't be sexist, don't be racist, don't be etc.

---

quote:

---

Maybe playing rugby and football for example got violence out of men/boys.

(snip)

Maybe physical activity, - running, jogging, walking, cycling, digging is part of the answer.

---

First sensible bit of your post. Physical activity seems to elevate levels of endorphines, which lead to higher mood levels. Of course, finding the motivation to get up and do the physical activity, which will then increase your motivation to get up and do stuff is hard. Bit of a vicious circle I believe.

Viki
 

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Posted by MCC (# 3137) on :
 
From my experience (take it or leave it of course)

Releasing the burden of buried emotions, anger included, has helped me. It's part of retaining and expressing the power which depression makes me think I have lost. Without abusing anybody of course.

When I was last off work feeling depressed, somebody got me working in the churchyard, where I found my love of using a large, heavy strimmer to destroy swathes of long grass, nettles, etc. Very therapeutic!

However, not for everyone, just for me.
 

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Posted by Cassandra W (# 4098) on :
 
Hmm, well, cutting weeds sounds therapeutic and constructive, and I've heard the suggestion re: breaking dishes before, but if you really need to vent anger, how about buying a scrap car at a junkjard. Spend a couple of hours pounding on that with a baseball bat/crowbar/sledge hammer/whatever and you should feel better.

Seriously - if that's more expense than you'd like (though still cheaper than therapy) consider getting a couple of friends to buy in. Or use it as a fundraiser. That's how I actually first heard of this, school group bought the car and then sold the right to smash it (three swings for five dollars, or something like that - extra if you wanted to take out the windshield!) Just make sure everyone wears proper safety goggles to protect their eyes from the flying debris

Cassandra (Better living through chemistry - SSRI anti-depressants - since 1984!)
 

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Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
I read some of this thread before, but it caught my eye again today, so i've read more of it. As I read, the more scary it's become as I recognise many of symptoms you've been describing in me. This is me being honest so please bear with me.

Basically, most people would say that I am a happy person, and for the most part that's how I am. Bubbly and friendly. However, sometimes something just hits me and takes all that away. I know it's not PMT because I don't suffer from that, there is no cycle to the feelings. I too suffered a great deal at school where I was very much alone and for all the time I was there I didn't make any real good friends. Sometimes it felt like I lived a split personality, happy and chatty at the weekend when I was at church, then a loner and on my own during the week.

When I left school I did a gap year where I met some super people who showed me that they loved me for just being me, which I could hardly believe and I can honestly say God did a massive healing job on my image and the hurt that had been inflicted. I guess though that school will always leave a lasting impression on me. I too have in the past placed great emphasis on one or two people, possibly to the detriment of our friendship at times.

However, I think the thing that scared me most, and which has made want to post here is that after a very busy summer last year where I was involved in two very intense working holidays, I went back to work in September not wanting to be there. Ok, so there was not a lot to be getting on with, but what little I could have been doing, I didn't do. It was like someone had come along and switched my motivation button off. As the months went by, I seemed to be able to do less and less (which is when I found the ship, possibly one of the few things that kept me going at work at that time).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

I would say that depressed people don't have joy. It's like being tired in spirit. Things you were actively interested in just don't have the same appeal any more, you don't have any enthusiasm to want to try anything new, before you know it life has shrivelled into a few basic activities. Life isn't particularly painful, it's just an interminable drag. In fact I'd say that the inertia of depression is ultimately far more insidious and damaging than the feelings of isolation which are more immediately painful.

---

I could safely say that this was true for me. It felt like living life through treakle and I hated myself for feeling that way, so much so, that I apologised to my line manager for putting in such a poor performance. It left me vunerable to other things too which possibly wouldn't have happened if I had been more "switched on".

After a good break of doing nothing at Christmas, I seem to have recovered most of my bounce. Scary thing is that people have noticed the difference. We discussed this at my review and equally scary was the fact my manager said that I seem to be a completely different person now.

The days when I wanted to crawl underneath my desk and just shut out the world (and I'm being very honest here) have gone hopefully although I do find it hard sometime to some up enough energy to do all the things that I need to do.

I know that I was probably suffering from mild depression, though that alone freeks me out. I think one of the problems is that no one says this is what you feel like when you get depressed. It's easy to identify when you have a cold, but depression? Maybe this is where it starts for many people, and gets a lot worse before the depression is caught. Maybe we should be on the watch out for our friends more.

If I had known that this was what it was, then I would have made sure I pulled a sicky, and in fact my manager has told me if I start feeling like I'm going down again, to sign myself off and take a break. I'm now trying to be a little more careful about what I take on and am trying to give myself the time out I need. Only it's hard somedays living on your own.

Thanks for reading this. I really appreciate it.
 

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Posted by Fishface (# 2206) on :
 
Just gotta sat My heart goes out to everyone on this thread. Annie P, Ariel, Moo,everybody. There are so many people who suffer like us. Many, many more than we ever realise. I see it in myself.
At work I see a constant trickle of people for whom depression has sucked the hope out of them. To the point of suicide.
I always see depession like the Demetors in Harry Potter. Looming black figues that suck the very essence of life out of you.( JK Rowling created those character during about of Depression).
I wonder how God sees it? I bet it breaks his heart.
Also I now refuse to think of myself as having failed if i become low and grey. I have learned to live with depression as a possible in my life. I have forgiven myself for being depressed at any point. somehow that has made a difference. Dunno why.

Guess i want to be positive about it. Without being trite. God has met me in the mire. Love is the key.
 

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Posted by MaryO (# 161) on :
 
Last September I found myself sitting at my desk alternately crying and staring into space. My manager called my on the bad quality of my work, and suggested (not ordered) that I go see the Employee Assistance Program. Half an hour with a counselor there convinced her I needed a therapist, and two days later I saw the therapist. At the end of that session she gave me the name of a psychiatrist to get on medication. I saw the psychiatrist on a Wednesday afternoon, and he had me admitted to the hospital psych ward the next morning. I started the paperwork for short-term disability the Tuesday after I saw the therapist.

It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I was in 11 days, which got me daily attention from a resident and consistent evaluation of my medication.

I then was out of work 2 1/2 months, to get used to medication, and get my concentration and focus back. I came back to work on January 6, and since then I feel great about myself and about my work.

Don't be afraid of the hospital if you need it. Of course, I benefitted from a terrific manager, supportive company, and good insurance.
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
[HOST SULKS IN]

If I were feeling up to it, I'd snarl something about reasoned discussion of clinical depression being better suited for Purgatory. I'd really feel terrible about closing this thread. Not that it matters, because nobody listens to me anyway. Luckily, my apathy prevents me from caring.

[HOST SULKS OUT]
 

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Posted by doug (# 474) on :
 
Dear Fr. Gregory,

Of course I would agree that the reason I was depressed is not the only reason people are depressed - I think that quote is actually from Freud so probably needs a liberal pinch of salt - and I would never for a minute suggest what worked (?) for me would work for anyone else.

I do think, though, that a tendency to see strong emotions, and in particular anger, as a negative thing does contribute a lot to certain forms of depression - and that it is interesting that people who self-harm/have eating disorders/take non-lethal overdoses/other fun stuff often tend to have issues with anger in particular (but not always of course)

I wonder what people think about these kinds of feelings. Is it wrong to be angry?

I would say (in my late nineties/early noughties (and that's the date and not my age) woolly kind of way) that it isn't - and it shouldn't be - I suppose that I am saying realising what you feel and trying to understand it, allowing yourself to feel it, whilst realising that it might not be the most reasonable thing in the world is probably a good thing.

In a way, maybe, the way feelings are regarded by society is in terms of whether they are *justified* or not. Of course this is an important lens through which to view them, but perhaps equally important is to accept that, well, things are going to piss you off/upset you/whatever no matter how objectively unreasonable, and that this doesn't mean they aren't there!

Dear Jengie

I too have f*cked things up royally in life now and then, and made some frankly rather questionable decisions , and I concur with your assessment that depression is a little more than anger directed at oneself - everyone gets a bit annoyed at themselves, but someone who is already down will *really* beat themselves up about something - a special talent, if you will

I suppose that it is a worry that one could slip back into depression - I know when I feel down, there is always a nagging feeling that it is the start of something bad.. rather than just normal stress which everyone feels (and isn't much fun at all - none of this 'oh feel my pain' kind of stuff but I hope its not too precious to say it's different from the kind of depression when you can't move to get out of bed, can't remember anything good and just want to cry the whole time), and sometimes it does feel like it could be...

I truly hope that you manage to navigate to some balmy tropical waters (oh dear how trite is that), and there are lots of nice fishies. And dolphins. And maybe a nice island with a lovely beach (getting worse, sorry)

Time for bed!

Love to all,

Doug
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
A general reply to Sarky Cow ...

I most certainly didn't advocate or condone domestic violence. I suggested it was similar to depression, ie when life and problems seem to overwhelm you. And people either seem to give up or hit out.

You even see that in the postings on our threads where people seem to flip and say something outrageous or give up posting.

Many people have flipped at me and something that was akin to a 'racist or sexist' comment.

I never take offence because I realise that their flipping/anger has not much too do with me but their own internal workings. 90% of the time I receive an apology, - sometimes weeks later.

I now regard outbursts as a sign of friendship because most people only flip with people they trust, - ie they think the relationship can bear it. Which is why most rows are within families and not with strangers.

Maybe people who can be angry with God have a similar relationship with him.

If you have depression the best thing that can happen to you is for someone to walk alongside you sometimes for miles, and not say a word, but just be there.

'Being there', - its so important. Could you do it ? No platitudes, no advice, nothing.

Someone once called it the 'Emmaus Road' experience.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by Fr. Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Dear GH

quote:

---

You even see that in the postings on our threads where people seem to flip and say something outrageous or give up posting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Garden Hermit:

If you have depression the best thing that can happen to you is for someone to walk alongside you sometimes for miles, and not say a word, but just be there.
'Being there', - its so important. Could you do it ? No platitudes, no advice, nothing.

---

Can I sneak in and ask a very non-Hellish word of advice? I have a friend, my closest friend since childhood, who has been suffering from a combination of depression and stress for going on for four years now. We don't live near to each other, so contact is necessarily limited to telephone calls, letters and emails, and visits which involve a stay. We both have families, and I know she misses the greater support I was able to give when I did not have children of my own.

How can I best help her long-distance? My letters and emails go unanswered, I seem always to phone at the wrong time. Visits are by necessity stressful. I could stay elsewhere and visit, but then she feels hurt and rejected that I don't want to stay with her. She has described her need to batten down the hatches and retreat into herself and her family, though she says how valuable my friendship is to her. I can feel us slowly drifting apart, which neither of us want to happen and I hate the feeling of letting her down when she needs it most.

I know all people are different, and what is right for one is not necessarily right for another. But, in addition to prayer, what can I best do for my friend. Do I persist (if so, how best?) or do I let go? Do I tell her when her repeated rejection is hurtful (e.g. I knitted jumpers for her children, at their request, and sent them - and the parcel was returned to me because she could not find the motivation to collect it from the post office. I understood, but it hurt and angered all the same) or do I try to let it wash over me?

How do I walk alongside her?
 

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Posted by flev (# 3187) on :
 
Smudgie, hang in there!

IMO, just because your friend isn't responding to your contact with her doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't appreciate it. Letters, e-mails and the like give concrete proof to you that someone cares enough to take time to think about you. And I've found that helps - even if only slightly.

However, that's just my personal experience - not sure if it's any help.
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
Hello Smudgie,

I can't give advice for your situation but I'll tell you of what helped me.

I had a colleague at work who if she saw my face not smiling would send me an e-mail such as

Keep Pedalling !

That cheered me up no end.

At weekends I would go with my wife to National Trust Gardens and just walk in a depressive haze. I didn't want to talk. Suddenly I'd see a butterfly or a small frog or something, and I'd say 'look at that'.

And somewhere in the walk, followed by a cup of tea, I'd find that the depression had lifted.

This went on for many months.

My wife did complain that I didn't say anything, and I should talk it out, but I just couldn't find the words.

I could hold her hand and I liked just to have a hug, but words, - there just didn't seem to be any to say.

My wife talked a lot, that was fine. Listening was no problem. But I couldn't speak or reply.

Maybe in the above you can find some help, and I wish you well with your friend, because it will be draining on you and you won't know if you're making a difference or not.

But even if you sat with your friend in front of a fire for a couple of hours and said absolutely nothing, I think you would be helping.

Whatever you do, as long as your friend aquiesses and doesn't through you out, IMO is beneficial.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
whoops - took a bit of an overdose lastnight. (rapidly retreats out of hell and hides in a corner...)
 

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Posted by MCC (# 3137) on :
 
Smudgie, and all.

I remember someone saying that we can never feel another person's pain.
Everything we think we understand is not adequate or quite accurate.

No answers in this, but accepting it , either as supporter or supported, may help.
 

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Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
Rook, I know that this thread isn't what would normally be considered "Hellish", but for those of us who need to discuss our bouts, there is no other place quite suited for it. Sharing our experiences with the terrifying chasm of shit that depression creates requires a venue that can take what we need to dish out.

FUCK DEPRESSION.

(Do you feel better about leaving it here now?)
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
It's a chasm of shit all right. It can lead to some pretty bizarre behaviour and distortions of reality. And combined with stress or anxiety it can really make life not worth living.

Smudgie, I think you have to tell your friend you find her behaviour hurtful, if you can do so calmly and tactfully. There's no point setting yourself up to have your face smacked again and again. It won't do either of you any good. I don't know your friend, but perhaps the more you persist, the more she might need to retreat. Or perhaps the friendship just doesn't mean as much to her any more as it does to you. Sometimes you lose the capacity to care. You might ask the family how they cope with it, if you haven't already done so: they may have some suggestions.
 

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Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
Thanks for your understanding about what I said. But please don't label me with (or anyone else here) with stigma about what I said. I am normal, really.
 

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Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
Annie, we are all normal. That's what makes it so painful.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Annie P:
Thanks for your understanding about what I said. But please don't label me with (or anyone else here) with stigma about what I said. I am normal, really.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by heathen mama:
Rook, I know that this thread isn't what would normally be considered "Hellish", but for those of us who need to discuss our bouts, there is no other place quite suited for it. Sharing our experiences with the terrifying chasm of shit that depression creates requires a venue that can take what we need to dish out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Annie P:
Thanks for your understanding about what I said. But please don't label me with (or anyone else here) with stigma about what I said. I am normal, really.

---

Annie, I know what you're saying! I've just had my performance review, following a year of what I thought was depression-related terrible performance, but it obviously didn't show up to either my peer reviewers or my boss. I had written in my self-evaluation that I found it hard to evaluate because of the depression.

Now, my manager has been very supportive right through last year. She understands about depression and has talked with me about it at length (usually with me in tears.) But when she saw the word "depression" on my self-evaluation, she suggested I change it to "illness," to avoid the stigma of having it on my public service file.

How on earth are we supposed to combat stigma without naming reality? I am quite normal, just depressed. My performance review shows me to have worked "competently" all last year, right through the depression, with some fabulous feedback from my peers about my contributions to our office. So what's the issue? I understand that she thinks it's a good idea, but I don't.

---

Hmm. That raises a question for me, Arabella. Going back a year or so - an application form for voluntary work in palliative care asked me to state if I had ever been in counselling/therapy of any kind. After taking advice from someone, I replied, no. The counselling I'd received being more of a 'listening ear' affair, and I'd not been referred through my GP. However, since then, I've spent around 40 hrs plus with a professional counsellor. At one point very very low grade depression was mentioned. (I feel for some of you posters here - if what I've experienced was low grade, I dread to think how you're feeling). But again, this never went to my GP.

So, my question is - Given the situation, how should I answer a similar question in future, and from others' experiences, would a 'yes' be likely to be held against me? I'm not trivialising the situation. This was serious counselling, not merely tea and sympathy - and I don't care to think how I would be now if I hadn't undertaken it.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
Well, my doctor never puts it on anything he writes as a reference for me. I asked him why and he said it was because people would misunderstand. He regards me as one of his more competent patients all round (he's a sweet, sweet man) and feels that it would be unfair for me to be labelled before someone got to know me. Most of what he's written for me has been for church interviews, and he is well aware of the stigma attached to depression in the church - and also of the predominance of it in the church!

To be fair to both of us, I don't think he would ignore it if it had knocked me out, but I missed only two days work because of depression last year, largely due to his support and the support of my workmates. Matter of degree perhaps?
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
I recently applied for a different job with my current employer (Council Social Work dept) and had to face the Occupational Health form which asks quite blatantly if you have ever been depressed, had counselling, therapy, on any medication etc.

This was a dilemma for me. I had been open with my supervisor about my depression etc and I hadn't missed any work. In the end I did include the facts of my depression in points on the form and found it encouraging to receive a reply from Occupational Health saying that there was no reason why I was not suitable for the post.

If you are up front in these situations they are required not to discriminate against you, equal opportunities and all that.

It worked for me anyway,

OOT
 

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Posted by Kit Dawe (# 4143) on :
 
Have only just joined the ship today, and have spent most of the morning just browsing. I felt I neded to post to this particular board tho'. First of all, to all my fellow sufferers out there (and to all our frinds - I know we can get difficult sometimes!) can I just 'Hi' and 'good luck!' I'm currently on a bit of a downward spiral, so here's hoping for a brighter time.
 

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Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
Welcome to the ship, Kit. Make yourself at home. My suggestion: read as many of the threads as you can, try to get a sense of different personalities, and then jump on into posting. And also try out the cafe...it's my personal favorite part of the ship.

Rook: thanks for the response. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was offended by your remarks...I truly wasn't. When one is suffering from depression, Purgatory would feel like an awkward place to discuss it. Like having World Cup Soccer matches held on a high-school field...to much restraint required. We need access to all of the verbal grenades and flaming heads we can get!
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
I managed to stay away from the doctor, and fortunately had a couple of good friends who were wise and understanding counsellors to me. Still, I think I may have touched on a glimpse of depression over the last year. Divorce sometimes does that to people I've heard. The problem is, how do you know when you are over it? When you think you are in the clear, you've had a good couple of weeks for example, it comes back with a vengeance. To hell with depression.
 

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Posted by Atlanta (# 2659) on :
 
So many people, So much suffering,

But it's good to hear others talk about this, as the Medical profession still do not fully understand, as we ourselves find it difficult to understand why one minute we are OK, and the next feeling so low.

This was intended as an update, I have been off the " tablets " for 10 days now, Am feeling some "wobbles"( pretty big ones) But I will give it more time, Meanwhile I have to hope people around me understand, and are patient with me.

It is so hard!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by candleinthedark (# 2361) on :
 

quote:

---

So many people, So much suffering,

---

I have to agree with that.

It's now over 6 months since I've posted because of things at work which resulted in 5 months off with depression and then coming back starting part time and building up. I'm now back full time which is tiring and tough. I'm reasonably confident I can make it.

This is the only time I've had depression and I guess it is relatively minor - but that does not mean that it isn't a debilitating black hole. The doctor wanted to refer me to Mental Health but I decided to refuse - it would knock my self-estime too far. My parents are completely ignorant and unhelpful, but my husband is a rock on which I can rely.

Over the time off work I managed to keep going on some distance studies. I'm sure this is part of Gods plan for me - it made me get up, gave me something to do. I kept playing in the church worship band because music is part of me, and theriputic and so on, but few of them knew what was going on.

Even now few of the church really know. One young lady said to me a few months ago how surprised she had been when the word got through - and she has just come through depression herself. When I am being stuborn I can hide it well - If I couldn't I wouldn't have left home. This lady was really encouraging, and I'm very grateful that there is someone who understands. Now, with being back at work I'm not as able to keep music and church out of it and the things I managed to still enjoy are being sucked in too.

I've just been offered redundancy from work and am planning to take it but don't know where to go next. Would rather not have too many uncertainties at the moment!
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Annie, dear, you and the others may be normal, but I am definitely a fruitcake.

How do you know when you're pulling out of a depression? The grass looks green. Birds sing. Terribly sappy, I'm afraid, but a good index.
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:
How do you know when you're pulling out of a depression? The grass looks green. Birds sing. Terribly sappy, I'm afraid, but a good index.

---

Oooh, I like the method!

Today, the grass is grey and the birds are croaking. May not sound great, but a week or so ago the grass was covered in spillage from a chemical factory, dug up, replaced with concrete and turned into a huge car park. I don't even want to know what had happened to the birds!

Amorya
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
I hesitated about posting the next comment but I think information is better than ignorance.

Unfortunately the next stage after depression just when you're starting to get better is the contemplation of suicide. (And unfortunatley many people also carry it out totally unaware they're on the mend.)

The theory goes something like this. Depression means everything is grey and you can't be bothered to do anything, - even get out of bed.

As you start to improve you then think 'There is something I can do to improve my lot in Life' which is unfortunatley ending it. But this is an action, someone taking control where no control previously existed. Whch in medical terms means you are getting better.

I post this so that everyone who knows someone with depression is aware what might happen and is pre-warned. I do realise it might frighten readers as well and I really hope that doesn't happen.

If you do feel suicidal phone the Samaritans in the UK. They really do know what you've been though and can really help.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Interesting the number of others who have posted on the stigma of depression. I have not told anyone at work about it, because I fear that it would be taken poorly.

I do know that, as it is on my medical record now, my chances of re-applying for ordination are probably gone ( at least for a number of years ). I cannot talk to anyone at church about it, because, being very new, I fear that it would kybosh any chance of a ministry there.

Why are we so stigmatised? I think people are scared ( very much like the early era of AIDS ). And yet statistics indicate 1 in 10 people sill suffer significant depression, and more than that a milder form. That means that in a church of 100, between 10 and 20 people will experience some degree of depression. Churches with significant numbers of younger people are, I suspect, more likely to suffer with the problems of first-time depression. And yet we ignore it, and pretend it doesn't exist. It would make me angry, but actually makes me sad.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Don't give up all hope, SC - see if you can get a copy of this week's Church Times. You need to read page 15.
 

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Posted by Kit Dawe (# 4143) on :
 
I don't know whether anybody else read the Observer yesterday, but there was a very interesting article regarding those who cut themselves, which I believe to be relevant to the whole idea of being stigmatised. It was written by a man (the biggest increase in self-harm statistics, by the way is in young men; the other scary statistic is that self harmers are MUCH more likely to commit suicide). The cycle is quite terrifying. Whilst cutting helped him deal with the feelings of depression, it also led him ultimatly to retreat further into himself, as the physical scars were something which (quite understandably) caused fairly extreme reactions in those who viewed them. In trying to cut himself out of his prison, he retreated further into it, because of the stigma he felt, due, not only to his mental situation, but also his physical scars.

I thought carefully before posting this next bit, but I hope it helps any others out there. I myself was one of these men who did this. I havn't hurt myself for several years now, and I look at my arms with horror at the scarring, and remember with equal horror what I did to myself. I am only just coming to learn just how ill I was, and this adds an extra dimension to how I feel about becoming ill again, not only because of how it affects me, but how other people react. The positive thing I've noticed about this thread, and one which everybody who has made a contribution should be proud of, is that we are trying to and discuss it in a humane way. Medical science, whilst very helpful can seem a little impersonal and clinical at times - treating the illness, but not the person. As others have noticed, the church is varied, and often destructive in it's reaction to depression (though again this is not always the case - the church is part of society, and is therefore necessarily going to have an element of societies prejudices and loving reactions towards the subject) - it often can reduce it to spiritual illness. And a significant, wider proportion of society would rather not think about it.

These reactions are either dismissive or reductive. Yet I notice a determination here (and it's one I hope to foster in myself to not let the bugger win. Depression of any sort, and however it manifests itself does not define who I am. Kit Dawe has depression, but it is not an inate feature of Kit. Perhaps one way of dealing with the stigma is to try and teach society (what ever that means) to not view the scars or the tears and use it as the defining feature of that person. As ever, stigmata in this case, as with so many other issues begins with the dehumanisation of others. And, alas, because of the illness we have, we tend to feel even more inhuman than we already do, and adds to the cycle. Any ideas how we teach this lesson.?

Sorry I went on a bit. Really what I wanted to say was that here, at least we tend to look beyond the illness. And also am trying to show myself there is some hope.
 

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Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
SC - I appreciate your being guarded in a new community, but be aware that some congregations may not see depression as a black ball. In my parish, more than a couple of the people who are a big part of what goes on have suffered depression before and during their ministry or participation.

I have had severe depression and am just now coming back to the land of the living, and I and my priest consider it somewhat of an asset in my new lay ministry. I'm a newly minted Stephen Minister and my role to have a long term one-on-one relationship with someone going through a rough time for whatever reason. The idea is to spread the job of pastoral care around so it's not all on the clergy's shoulders. Having been halfway to hell and back, I may be able to relate to people in some situations that would be alien to some people.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
Thank you Kit. Oddly, I haven't met any young men who cut, but I have three young women in my care who do.

Including our Sunday School teacher who has just been hospitalised with severe depression. She cuts herself and has done ever since I've known her (about 6 years now). Any spare prayers for her would be appreciated.

I'm at a bit of a loss what to tell the kids on Sunday, since I'll be filling in for her this week. Huia gave me The Red Tree by Shaun Tan, which is the most wonderful picture book on depression. But I'm not sure what or whether to tell the kids - they're already a bit stressed because our minister is heading to the US this week for three weeks, and they're a bit worried about war and so on. I suspect I shouldn't just ignore it.
 

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Posted by Marina (# 343) on :
 
Has anbody read The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression. I thought it was an amazing book - any thoughts?
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Thank you everyone for your responses here ( and to Amos for your PM ). I accept that it should not be a barrier to ministry, and may be, at some point, a very important aspect of my ministry. I am glad that there are those around who acknowledge that. Eanswyth - you may be right, but I would want some more evidence that it may be considered positive before I would commit myself. I currently have serious doubts. Im my previous church I did admit it, but then it was shortly before I left. I am sure that, had I stayed, it would have been a major boost to my ministry there.

I was really trying to work out the effects of the stigma of depression. Those who self-harm or attempt suicide are harder to deal with for people ( including myself ), and I wonder if some of the reason is because to work with such people, you may have to face your own fears? Scars make a very significant visual statement about the state that the person is in, and I can see this is very challenging.

Sorry, probably talking rubbish, just trying to think out load ( you know what I mean )
 

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Posted by Arch- (# 982) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Thank you everyone for your responses here ( and to Amos for your PM ). I accept that it should not be a barrier to ministry, and may be, at some point, a very important aspect of my ministry. I am glad that there are those around who acknowledge that. Eanswyth - you may be right, but I would want some more evidence that it may be considered positive before I would commit myself. I currently have serious doubts. Im my previous church I did admit it, but then it was shortly before I left. I am sure that, had I stayed, it would have been a major boost to my ministry there.

I was really trying to work out the effects of the stigma of depression. Those who self-harm or attempt suicide are harder to deal with for people ( including myself ), and I wonder if some of the reason is because to work with such people, you may have to face your own fears? Scars make a very significant visual statement about the state that the person is in, and I can see this is very challenging.

Sorry, probably talking rubbish, just trying to think out load ( you know what I mean )

---

Thank you so much, Schroedingers Cat for your honesty and your sensitivity in anticipating both the challenges and opportunities that may lie ahead for you. If it helps, please see page 15 of the Church Times this week where I seek to explore some of the lessons of the last five years in my ministry. I am sorry but I cannot find a link for this particular page.

God Bless on your journey wherever it may take you and the meetings along the way.

 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
If anyone could send me a copy of the Church Times article, I would be very grateful. Please PM me, if you can help. Cheers.
 

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Posted by Kit Dawe (# 4143) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:


I was really trying to work out the effects of the stigma of depression. Those who self-harm or attempt suicide are harder to deal with for people ( including myself ), and I wonder if some of the reason is because to work with such people, you may have to face your own fears? Scars make a very significant visual statement about the state that the person is in, and I can see this is very challenging.

---

 

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Posted by Kit Dawe (# 4143) on :
 
Sorry about the above everyone - first time I have tried to incorporate a quote! Ooops!!

Schrodiger, I think you are right - I think one of the great problems with self - injury is that it does present a challenge to others (although I think it needs to be said that people don't tend to do it it in order to bring attention to themselves - it is done more in the persuit of temporary relief, than as a cry for help). Partly because of it's sheer physicallity - you can't dismiss it once you know someone's doing it, and partly because (and I agree with you here), that it is a case of addressing your own fears.
 

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Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
SC - I feel that you are completely right in not opening up to a new community yet. You have to get the feel for them before you know how they might react. I just wasn't sure if you had thought about the possibility of using your "flaw" as a strength. I'm glad that you had seen it that way in your previous community. I'll keep praying for all of us to find the lifeline and, once grasped, not let go.
 

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Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
I would agree with Eanswyth that waiting a little can often be a good thing, however if you are still suffering then I hope there are people you can turn to in the area if needs be.

Felt a twinge on Friday. It just hit me again, not too hard, but I still don't understand why on most days I feel fine and then for no apparent reason I feel down, like a flat glass of lemonade. *shrug* Wish I didn't.

There was something that I wrote last year when things weren't too good. Thought I would share it with you and see if it rings any bells. It's quite depressing for me, but I added the last line a week later as if to say I won't give in, there has to be something better.

quote:

---

Before

I remember when all we had was our lives before us and our dreams to live. With hope and expectation we waited to find out what we would be. We trusted in those who led us forward and those who had gone before. We knew that our lives could amount to something and even though we weren’t sure what we would achieve this we knew: that it should be greater than what had happened in the past. We were worth something, a great deal. Brave and true, bright eyed and young, we were ready to face anything. In awe of the world and all that was in it we knew we could make a difference.

Now what has become of those dreams and aspirations? As dust slips through our fingers, our lives are disappearing before our eyes. How did we become this, and only this? Secretly we wish things could be different, we wish we stood for more. Are we disappointed? Do we give up and except that those promises made about us and by us have amounted to nothing? Standing here, seeing what I see, I wonder if it is true.

Then we were willing, now we are reluctant. Before we were passionate, now we are accepting. In the past we were adventurous but now we have responsibilities. We had dreams, now they are only memories of what we thought we would be. We now stand before you and ask “why?”.

The question is though we are disappointed with what we have become, do we have the courage to change?

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