Thread: Hell: A small group experience in spiritual formation Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
OK.

I started "Companions in Christ" at church tonight. It's a two hour, once a week "small group experience in spiritual formation."

We have a textbook. We have to keep a journal of our weekly spiritual thots and share them. My rector made me do it. We have meeting ground rules. They don't seem to encourage sarcastic off-the-cuff coments.

It was terrible. Everybody else seemed to be spiritual. We had to go around the table and tell a deep thot. I didn't have any, and had to make one up, but fortunately, I read threads in Purgatory often enough that I could fake it.

We had to stand and pray together at the end, holding hands. I hate holding hands unless we're having sex later.

I managed to fake it tonight and appear sincere and thotful, but this is going to go on for weeks, and I need a supply of spiritual and thotful comments so I can have a crib sheet.

I did mention that penitential processions should go counter-clockwise around the church, but apparently that's not the sort of thing they're looking for.

So if you all could help me out with some good sincere spiritual cliches, I would be most grateful.

Peace & Love,
Your brother in Christ,
Sine

[ 14. April 2004, 23:57: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Ewww, you poor thing! That sounds dreadful.

What kind of spiritually deep thoughts are you looking for? Give me a topic or theme, and I can manufacture reams of 'em.
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Gag me with a spoon. All the same reasons I gave up going to "Ladies' Days" -- except for the ones where I'm the speaker!

Here's some deep thots, courtesy of the Ship:

"My religious life is a journey."

"Anyone who believes the Bible is literal must be a quack."

"I have been being believing in the whole of the world being as lost and hell-bound as to their lacking in faith."

"The gospel in a nutshell? GIN."

"I once thought I found a true Christian website -- but I was wrong."

Don't worry about thanking me. Having you look good in front of your Christian Companions is thanks enough for me.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
What kind of spiritually deep thoughts are you looking for?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:
I take it she is part of this group--has she shared her deep thots?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
While I rarely agree with Amos, I'm afraid this time I must agree 100%. Run for your life, Sine. Don't look back.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
[And I don't do well when you put me in a room with eight other comparative strangers (some are total strangers) and say "let's all trust each other and expose our innermost pain."

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quote:

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...I do want to learn about prayer. I'm just not sure this is going to work for me. It's a bit on the touchy-feely side for me....

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quote:

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...faces like Angel Food cake.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
Some people pay $100 an hour to sit in a room with 7 complete strangers and speak intimately about their innermost pain.

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The textbook costs twenty bucks.

On top of that, it turns out it's a Methodist program. (Sorry, Zach.)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
[observation]

Gawd, we're spoiled, aren't we?
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
After I read chapter two tomorrow night, I'll tell you what sort of thots I need. Then I have daily spiritual exercises for the rest of the week.

This is worse than piano lessons. Well, not actually. My piano teacher could reduce me to a gibbering idiot with a few sarcastic comments delivered through a cloud of cigarette smoke.
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeke:

quote:

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...faces like Angel Food cake.

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How do you have a face like cake?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[observation]

Gawd, we're spoiled, aren't we?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I started "Companions in Christ" at church tonight. It's a two hour, once a week "small group experience in spiritual formation."

We have a textbook. We have to keep a journal of our weekly spiritual thots and share them. My rector made me do it. We have meeting ground rules. They don't seem to encourage sarcastic off-the-cuff coments.

[...]

So if you all could help me out with some good sincere spiritual cliches, I would be most grateful.

Peace & Love,
Your brother in Christ,
Sine

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Kum by ya, my Lord, kum by ya.
Kum by ya, my Lord, kum by ya.
Kum by ya, my Lord, kum by ya.
O Lord, kum by ya.

Mountain top experiences are wonderful, but growth occurs in the valley.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Bonus Track

It's a small world after all,
It's a small world after all,
It's a small world after all,
It's a small, small world.

(And if that last song isn't a foretaste of Hell, I'm not sure what is. )

Anything else you need help with, Mr. Nomine?
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Mountain top experiences are wonderful, but growth occurs in the valley.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
After I read chapter two tomorrow night, I'll tell you what sort of thots I need. Then I have daily spiritual exercises for the rest of the week.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeke:

quote:

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...faces like Angel Food cake.

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How do you have a face like cake?

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Angel food cake? You have a big hole in the middle.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
After I read chapter two tomorrow night, I'll tell you what sort of thots I need. Then I have daily spiritual exercises for the rest of the week.

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tomb's point about prayer does remind me of the elderly nun I met, who was part of the perpetual Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament in her community. She told me that the knees toughen up after a few years. In her latter years, she did admit that knee pads were also becoming helpful.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
(no, I'm not available).

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quote:

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Cecily: It seems to me, Miss Fairfax, that I am trespassing on your valuable time. No doubt you have many other calls of a similar character to make in the neighborhood.

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• I was meditating on how the Trinity is like a good cherry pie, cut into three; we see three pieces on the outside, but on the inside it's all one...
• I was wondering if I was sharing my spiritual fruit with enough people...
• I was reflecting on the need some people have to eat their fruit with appropriate cutlery (feel free to add details here, Sine!) while other just bite and chew, and wondering how that reflects on my need to think about faith, while others need to feel/emote their faith...
• Would Jesus eat lobster if it was prepared just right?

quote:

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Originally posted by Boopy:
Any good group leader should ensure that a small group does not expose people to the embarrassment of having to behave in ways they find awkward. If this isn't set up as a given, challenge it!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laura:
Sine, I told you to do EFM, dammit. That's what's for you. Not some hippy-dippy-sharing encounter sessions! Bleah! I could pass off my materials to you, if you don't want to cough up the 300 bucks. I'm in year two. I like it a lot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Dear Lord. I just looked in the front of the book. It's twenty-eight weeks! We don't even start on "meditation and prayer" until the sixth week. Apparently we spend the first five weeks bonding and Sharing Insights™.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laura:
Do you at least get to drink?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Dear Lord. I just looked in the front of the book. It's twenty-eight weeks! We don't even start on "meditation and prayer" until the sixth week. Apparently we spend the first five weeks bonding and Sharing Insights™.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I wouldn't want you picking up the germ of an idea and become a Methodist on us.

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quote:

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This whole program is sounding kinkier and kinkier each time you post.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I wouldn't want you picking up the germ of an idea and become a Methodist on us.

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Actually, last night our rector somewhat shamefacedly muttered that it's a Methodist course. But we should be safe enough I think. It's not like we'll be singing their hymns or anything really dangerous.

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quote:

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quote:

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This whole program is sounding kinkier and kinkier each time you post.

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I get the feeling you constructed that sentence very carefully. You haven't met our friend Chast yet, have you?

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Moi? Write carefully? (You've looked at my résumé, haven't you?) Do I need to be introduced to Chast?

Education for Ministry is not a cure-all. It depends on the group, and especially the leadership. Buy me a drink and I might tell you about the one year of EFM I have back in 1985-86. After my experience (which is far from many people's experience with EFM, fortunately), I have yet to find a reason to go back.

Dim bulbs can ruin any brilliant program.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeke:
Does the group even have an agreed-upon confidentiality norm? So you know that what you share doesn't end up all over the church, not to mention with the friends and family of everyone who knows each person in the group?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Plain Old Wally:
It might make your therapy-mates uncomfortable, but I think it's time to go into original sin in excruciating detail when it's your turn to talk next.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joyeux:
I'm curious just exactly how you were forced into this group... were you frog-marched to the door and then hand-cuffed to your chair?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Our rector made it perfectly clear that you weren't obligated to share more than you wanted to, and that silence was more than acceptable. But then several people started spilling their guts. They are newish members of the church and come from non-Anglican traditions. Me and the lady who are cradle Episcopalians sat there looking mortified. In fact, she had thought it was a Bible study class and was a bit taken aback when she found she was expected to talk about herself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyeux:
I'm curious just exactly how you were forced into this group... were you frog-marched to the door and then hand-cuffed to your chair?

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Close.

My rector told me twice I really needed to do it. And she tends to be right about these things in the long run. Either that or the church is overstocked with the textbooks and she wanted to unload some.

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OK. Let's say your rector is right about this for a moment (but only a moment). Spiritual discipline requires some honesty. Within reason, why not be yourself?

I'm not saying that you should march in and lead the revolution. On the other hand, what is wrong with some sarcasm if it is what you are actually feeling?

Your rector may want you in the class because it can be dreadfully boring with the paste-on happy faces type of people . Since you are not a paste-on happy face type of person, you can add a spark and some honesty to create some lively discussion. If someone comments about your humor, you can always point out that this is what you are feeling.

Just leave the language at Purgatorial levels. Maybe.

The worst that can happen to you is that your rector realizes that this wasn't the course for you, then you will be free. The best that can happen is that this class becomes enjoyable and meaningful for you.

Doing theology is as much or more getting in contact with your reaction to a passage, not just finding out the right and wrong ways to think. If you want rights and wrongs, study religion instead. (See, I did learn something from EFM.)

[ 14. October 2003, 23:22: Message edited by: The Bede's American Successor ]
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
On the other hand, what is wrong with some sarcasm if it is what you are actually feeling?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
On the other hand, what is wrong with some sarcasm if it is what you are actually feeling?

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I dunno. The list of ground rules is pretty bland and affirming.

And one of them says we have to "Honor the different ways God works in individuals." I think that cuts out sarcasm.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And Laughing Man is going to want to be my friend. I just know he is. He's going to want to go have coffee and tell me all about growing up Southern Baptist and discovering his true sexuality. Which, trust me on this, was best left undiscovered.

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Are we flattering ourselves tonight? Maybe he'll want to meet your brother, instead.

Besides, I'm half-SB myself--mother's side of family--which is somewhat like being half-assed (which I'm sure you'll agree with immediately ). I even went to Baptist Sunday Schools and Vacation Bible Schools for a while when growing up.

Fortunately the grand and overarching truth of the Episcopal Church, the True Bible Church(TM), kept its hold on me.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Are we flattering ourselves tonight?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Plain Old Wally:

Perhaps I would also worry if they wanted to start doing trust building exercises.

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quote:

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I hate holding hands unless we're having sex later.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Plain Old Wally:

Perhaps I would also worry if they wanted to start doing trust building exercises.

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Like the one with six pieces of cardboard and two drinking straws?

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That's a trust-building exercise? They told me it was sexual experimentation!
 

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Posted by Plain Old Wally (# 3245) on :
 
I have the pride, and/or shame of not knowing what either of you are talking about.
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Plain Old Wally:
I have the pride, and/or shame of not knowing what either of you are talking about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
On the other hand, what is wrong with some sarcasm if it is what you are actually feeling?

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I dunno. The list of ground rules is pretty bland and affirming.

And one of them says we have to "Honor the different ways God works in individuals." I think that cuts out sarcasm.

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Doesn't this mean they all have to honor how God works in you as well? It's a two-way street, my dear.

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quote:

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on the table with three candles stuck in sand

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You should have blown them out and told everybody you wished could leave.
 

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Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
You should share the spiritual experiences you've had in Hell.

That would wake them up.
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
On the other hand, what is wrong with some sarcasm if it is what you are actually feeling?

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I dunno. The list of ground rules is pretty bland and affirming.

And one of them says we have to "Honor the different ways God works in individuals." I think that cuts out sarcasm.

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Doesn't this mean they all have to honor how God works in you as well? It's a two-way street, my dear.

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And do they know all the different ways too? Honouring them all could take some time.

Probably is meant to cut out sarcasm and other parlour games.

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Sarcasm does not have to be directed against anyone in the group or anyone's experiences that are in the group. You can do some self-deprecating humor, for example.

Also, sarcasm can be used to illustrate a point in a joking manner. For example, Jesus' reference to a camel and the Eye of the Needle could have been as much sarcasm as hyperbole.

I understand the need not to destroy other people through the use of humor or other means. On the other hand, I would simply be afraid of any program that expects you to not to protray yourself in a truthful and honest manner. Very afraid.

Moderation in all things, perchance?
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Sine, don't any of your "friends" clutter up your e-mail by forwarding those sicky-sweet stories? You know, the one about the popular high school boy who decides to talk with the geeky kid, and later finds out that that single act of kindness made the geek decide not to go home and kill himself as he had planned?

When I went through RCIA (and despite what Duo Seraphim states, some RCs do get heavily into that holding hands in a circle to pray stuff ), people kept bringing in those things and invariably got asked by everyone for a copy, "because it's so inspiring!".

So I volunteered to do the opening prayer/reading and brought in the wonderful poem by St Symeon the New Theologian which begins:

quote:

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We awaken in Christ's body
as Christ awakens our bodies,
and my poor hand is Christ. He enters
my foot, and is infinitely me.

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(The full poem can be found here, you'll have to scroll down the page a bit.)

Needless to say, it went over like a lead balloon. The leader made a couple of polite noises, everyone else looked quite blank, and we quickly continued.

So much for being honest. I reverted to coming up with platitudes and whatever bits of gushy sentimentality my sarcastic, mystically-inclined, irreverent soul could provide, and I kept silent a lot.

I can just picture those three candles and what would happen if you tried to start a discussion about the actual symbolism of the unequal heights. Even if one other person understood what you were talking about, the rest would be sitting there blank-faced and clueless. What a shame, too, since that would be a great conversation!

[Preview Post Is Your Friend]

[ 16. October 2003, 02:10: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
And shame on me, I'm already two days behind on this week's lesson. I guess I can do like when I used to take piano, and try and make it up in a couple of mammoth practice sessions...which never worked.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
Sine, don't any of your "friends" clutter up your e-mail by forwarding those sicky-sweet stories?

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Only with sarcastic comments attatched.

There was a woman in the accounting dept. who used to do mass forwarding of such things until I told her I thought I was developing diabetes from her e-mails and asked her to stop.

And now I've just come from choir rehearsal and found out that we're now expected to sing at monthly "alternative" services on Sunday evening. And even our director, who has a high tolerance for touchy-feely smarm, seems a little dismayed by what's on the plate for this Sunday. Which is really, really, scary. It must be bad because he's going to have us sing Rotter's Gaelic Blessing. And we're not going to vest because it would be too "formal".

Dear Lord in heaven, I'd like to be a Christian. I really would. But I'm not sure it's worth the effort. New Age Christianity is working my nerves badly. Will probably come in one Sunday and find a crystal on the altar.
 

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Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :
 
Sine, if you find a crystal on the altar be sure to put a clear pyramid over it. I understand it keeps the crystal sharp. Or the razor blade sharp. Or something like that.
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
I prefer my Krystals with a little extra mustard on them.
 

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Posted by Yavanna (# 5043) on :
 
Tonight at the campus ministry I've been going to, we had to get into groups and each come up with a "word picture that describes your relationship to Christ." I'm glad I saw this thread, because I didn't feel so guilty about thinking the little exercise was pretty silly.

Also, the leaders of the group seem to think that everything is tied to one's relationship with God. One of the girls decribed a guy in a conversation after the meeting: "If he's happy, it's about a girl. If he's sad, it's about a girl. If there's drama in his life, it's about a girl." The leader's response? He doesn't have a good relationship with God, and he's looking elsewhere to fulfill his needs. Had a bad week? Maybe your relationship with God has suffered. I know that a person's spiritual life is important, but is it really that important?
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yavanna:
The leader's response? He doesn't have a good relationship with God, and he's looking elsewhere to fulfill his needs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
TRANSLATION: Mousethief needs more chocolate.

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quote:

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by Sine: I'm finally acknowledging that I haven't a clue what spiritual needs are. I'm about at the point where I think if everyone had their emotional needs met, the churches would be empty.

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quote:

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How would you differentiate the two, i.e. spiritual and emotional needs?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So if you all could help me out with some good sincere spiritual cliches, I would be most grateful.

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Isn't this therefore a homework thread and where's a host when you need one ?
 

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Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Oh thanks a bunch for ignoring my late-night angst-ridden post, Alex, and going for the chocolate.

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quote:

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I'm finally acknowledging that I haven't a clue what spiritual needs are. I'm about at the point where I think if everyone had their emotional needs met, the churches would be empty.

I know none of the people in my class look like their emotional needs are being met.

Of course, there is the school of thought that says we don't show up on Sunday to fullfill our needs. But it's not a very popular school of thought at the mega-churches in the suburbs.

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...by demonstrating that emotional needs can be fulfilled by chocolate. Isn't one of the best teaching methods demonstration?

Another team-building exercise is the "trust fall." Can be fun, can be hideous.
 

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Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PointlessAlbatross:
Just going back to the OP

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So if you all could help me out with some good sincere spiritual cliches, I would be most grateful.

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Isn't this therefore a homework thread and where's a host when you need one ?

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Nope, sorry, but helping with "homework" would be giving actual sincere answers. This is more along the lines of a parody, IMO.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by biscuit:

Spiritual need is the need to have purpose in your life.

Emotional need is the need to know others value you, so that you can respond to them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
I sometimes feel that there is an introverted small group fetish around at the moment.

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quote:

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Fr. Gregory-
I'm not saying that groups like this can't have value. They can and do. However inexpertly run groups that can easily be hijacked can easily become either tiresome of spiritually abusive.

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And Sine, dear, I think you are just the one to hijack yours and subvert it before it becomes "tiresome or spiritually abusive." (Too late? ) Think of it as your spiritual calling.


 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I can do that.

Except my rector can read me like a book.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Hmmm...nuts, marshmallows, and chopped dates...all held together by Jello. Three in one, and one in three.

I think we're on to something here.

But what does the Cool Whip on top represent?

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Rats, Kelly Alves best me to the reply.

Sine, if you're not going to drop out (because your pastor knows you need something that you will get from this class or whatever it is) and you aren't going to actively subvert it (because your pastor knows you too well and will see through your pseudo-cooperative-but-actually-subversive contributions), I only see two options left:

1. Accept that Pastor Knows Best ™ and meekly continue.

2. Have a public Hissy Fit ™ and storm out of the class, never to be seen again.

I choose #1 and discovered that indeed, that horrible RCIA class met some needs I had, but the downside is that the good memories are forever tinged with all the cringing memories.

#2 would be a lot more fun! That's what my godmother did twice before she finally managed to get through RCIA.
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Sign, I still think you need to Suck it Up (tm), do the class, subvert it, then invite everybody over to eat Ice Cream with your weird little forks. A few lines:

"You can't be serious."

"No, God never told me to do something like that."

"Do you honestly think God would do something like that?"

"What makes you think the Hand of God was in that? It sure looks like plain stupidity to me."

"No, your daughter didn't get pregnant to Test You. Your daughter got pregnant because she's a Slut, and most likely she's a Slut because you're a bad parent."

"No, I don't think God can forgive that."

"I really don't believe Jesus gives a shit what you drive."

"Well, on balance, you're probably going to hell."

"You're making that up, aren't you?"

"No, I don't think God hates you. He's probably pissed off at what you did, but he'll get over it if you offer him a blood sacrifice of enough of your pets."

"No, God didn't give you cancer. You probably just made bad choices."

"Why should I pray for that? Looks like God has made up His mind, as far as I can tell."
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
Rats, Kelly Alves best me to the reply.

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It was pretty obvious, wasn't it?


And as for you tomb...I wish you were my Sunday School teacher when I was a kid.

[ 19. October 2003, 05:09: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
.... And as for you tomb...I wish you were my Sunday School teacher when I was a kid.

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No you don't, honeycakes. You'd be that much more likely to be going to Hell than if you'd never met me.

I gave up teaching Sunday School after that terrible time in adult class when I deconstructed the first chapter of John's Gospel and several people actually believed me.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I gotta hand it to you, sugarballs, you got a lot of gumption.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
You guys will be very proud of me. I did an excellent job of sabotaging the Companions in Christ class.

I even brought up sin and repentence, which is like the bastard child at the wedding in an Episcopal Church.

When everyone else was talking about how their friends and family were part of God's grace in their lives, I asked what the difference was between the Methodist view of grace and the Roman Catholic view. And just what was this argument between Catholics and Protestants over works.

At one point our rector said, in a rather stern voice, "Do you have anything else you'd like to add, Sine?"
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Did she really call you "Sine"? That IS amazing.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
No, she called me by my real life diminutive, but in a chilly voice.
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
At one point our rector said, in a rather stern voice, "Do you have anything else you'd like to add, Sine?"

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My, she is so accpeting of you and your spiritual journey. I think you have your invite to leave now.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
It says in the ground rules that it's not group therapy, but it sure felt like it was headed in that direction. The young lady to my right got all teary a couple of times.

And it's not like the rector doesn't have a decent degree in theology, but I think she thought I was getting ahead of the game plan.

This week's topic was "Grace" and I mentioned that being a choir-type I had gone to the cyber-hymnal and printed out a copy of the text of "Amazing Grace" to meditate on during the week.

She said, in a suspicious tone, "Do you have a copy of the moderator's book?"

I said (Duh), "No, it just seemed obvious for a person who's really into to hymns."

It turns out the moderator's book says to open this week's meeting by singing "Amazing Grace". Well, sheesh. Your talking about Grace, for God's sake. How big of a leap is that?
 

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Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
Sine, you just have to face it: your charming, smartass ways hide a spiritual IQ of about 160.

And I'm very proud of you. Give 'em Hell! God, I hate it when people act like your rector- saying that they want you to approach something your own way, then acting like snots when "your way" doesn't please them. Give it a rest, Mother Whoever! You don't have to talk like a sacred Hallmark Card™ to be spiritual.
 

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Posted by The Coot (Icarus) (# 220) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by biscuit:
Spiritual need is the need to have purpose in your life (ie so you are then able to value yourself). It's about seeking something higher or greater than yourself, ie something transcendant, that you can respond to.

Emotional need is the need to know others value you, so that you can respond to them.

A lot of people get 'em mixed up...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
You could, for instance, have been one of the original Christians and been forced to live with people sharing their feelings 24/7.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
Sharing one's feelings is a twentieth/twenty-first century fashion.

---

Well everyone should just stop.right.now.

If one just must express one's innermost thoughts, start a diary and we'll read it after you're dead.
 

---

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
I'm guessing this might help in your next therapy-group meeting.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
[Homework Alert!]

Next week we're going to have to chart our unique spiritual journeys in life to date. Since I don't have one, I'll need to borrow someone else's unique spiritual journey.

If you have a really inspiring, touching one, preferably one that I can sniffle a bit as I read it, please pm me the details so I can plagiarize.

[/Homework alert]
 

---

Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Sine, all my unique spiritual journeys are taken. But I can help with the sniffling bit. Hint Conceal half an onion in your hanky. That should help the spirit move nicely!
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
I have one for ya, Sine, but it involves a divorce and a cervical cancer scare, so I don't know if they would buy it.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
You're welcome to my born and raised a third-generation Baha'i, went to a lot of Baptist Vacation Bible Schools and Lutheran services with friends, tried for 30 years to become a full-fledged Buddhist, finally gave in and became Roman Catholic (a daily communicant, no less!) even though I agree more with the Episcopalians, and I'm still hanging around with Baptists, except now it's for handbell ringing instead of VBS.

Further details available upon request, including the touching tale of the time my father and I were having a wonderful, hilarious discussion about how this life might relate to the afterlife and my mother suddenly burst into tears, exclaimed "How can you laugh about such depressing ideas!" and ran from the room.

Oh. Not the kind of tear-jerker you wanted.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I did once almost have a sudden conversion experience, much like Paul on the road to Damascus. I was in a disco in the French Quarter and suddenly a bright light from Heaven shone down upon me. I was somewhat disoriented and it was several seconds before I realized it was the revolving mirrored ball in the ceiling.

Parenthetically, have you ever noticed how much accounts of sudden conversion experiences sound like nervous breakdowns? Saint Augustine's certainly does.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:


When everyone else was talking about how their friends and family were part of God's grace in their lives, I asked what the difference was between the Methodist view of grace and the Roman Catholic view. And just what was this argument between Catholics and Protestants over works.

---

quote:

---

And now I've just come from choir rehearsal and found out that we're now expected to sing at monthly "alternative" services on Sunday evening. And even our director, who has a high tolerance for touchy-feely smarm, seems a little dismayed by what's on the plate for this Sunday. Which is really, really, scary. It must be bad because he's going to have us sing Rotter's Gaelic Blessing. And we're not going to vest because it would be too "formal".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Did anyone else take you up on Reformation politics?

---

No, we got a little distracted when the young, teary woman, who was brought up Baptist, asked what I meant by "Orthodox".

Two million pounds! That's sickening. As Noel Coward once said "It's remarkable how potent cheap music is."
 

---

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Dear Sine,

I always find a truly moving 'conversion' experience involves you realising that your life was heading down the pan, and crying out to Jay-sus for help. Preferably at night. Alone. Walking somewhere. Perhaps you had been such a mean and selfish person, living only for yourself, and had either driven everyone else away, or you realised that your life was empty.

(Find a B-class 60s sob story film, and plagairise the plot. If your rector recognises it, and calls you on making it all up, then she's smarter than you thought.)

When walking alone, you met with God. Nothing dramatic - rector would know you were lying. Maybe just an awareness of a presence, of love, of light, of a calling that it doesn't have to be this way. How about an acceptance of you, as you are, as you realise how dirty and bad you are? Then some fudge about life having its ups and downs since then, but this unshakeable acceptance of you, just the way you are has never left you. This ending has the added bonus of them not being able to criticize you for being as you are - if God likes you that way, who are they to criticize? But you can invent any ending really, just don't go for life being perfect since you got converted. People don't believe that anymore

There ya go. Quick and easy conversion story. Make up as much detail as you can carry off without laughing. And, if you are a bit vague on some details, try looking upset. People won't pry

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Perhaps you had been such a mean and selfish person, living only for yourself, and had either driven everyone else away, or you realised that your life was empty.

---

quote:

---

Find a B-class 60s sob story film, and plagairise the plot.

---

quote:

---

When walking alone, you met with God. Nothing dramatic - rector would know you were lying.

---

quote:

---

How about an acceptance of you, as you are, as you realise how dirty and bad you are?

---

quote:

---

Then some fudge about life having its ups and downs since then, but this unshakeable acceptance of you, just the way you are has never left you. This ending has the added bonus of them not being able to criticize you for being as you are - if God likes you that way, who are they to criticize?

---

quote:

---

And, if you are a bit vague on some details, try looking upset. People won't pry

---

I learned a long time ago to be a bit vague on the details. Didn't realize I could use it in spiritual class too.

Thanks, Sarky.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Well. <sniff> If all you wanted was a run-of-the-mill Anglican pseudo-conversion, why didn't you just say so. <sniff>

*sheep-plop*, too.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Well, it's well known around the church that I'm a cradle Episcopalian, so I can't get too far out there.

I'm afraid I couldn't get by with Baha'i. I have to start slow.
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 

quote:

---

Parenthetically, have you ever noticed how much accounts of sudden conversion experiences sound like nervous breakdowns? Saint Augustine's certainly does.

---

I once had an instance of jet lag/food poisoning that seemed a good deal like Dame Julian's experience of being harassed by demons.

No joke.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
The link between sudden conversions and nervous breakdowns has unfortunately been noted by dodgy practitioners who drive someone to breakdown in order to convert them (break me, melt me, mould me, fill me; dying to self, breaking down the ego, etc) Not a recommended practice as it can lead to lots of l-t problems, but was quite popular at one time.
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Oh, for God's sake. This doesn't have Jack Shit to do with one's "Spiritual Journey."

This has everything to do with people so alienated from their culture that they would prostitute themselves in virtually any way to achieve anything resembling intimacy with another human being.

OF COURSE we have a spiritual journey. But For God's Sake, where in Hell did somebody make the connection that "sharing one's spiritual journey" with others was a way to "build community."

Most spiritual journeys are absolute misery. God doesn't seem particularly disposed to making us "feel good" as we struggle to find ways to love Him more than we love ourselves or any of the other things we love--whatever they may be, and virtually all of which corrode our souls beyond comprehension or recognition.

The idea that we could "come together" in a small group for "encouragement" is absolutely ludicrous. We don't need "encouragement" to love God. We need a bracing reminder that the world is not our home. We need to be told not to be cowards.

The Sacraments are what give us comfort--not people. God gives us people to tell us to Suck it Up.
 

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Posted by The Coot (Icarus) (# 220) on :
 
Indeed, tomb. Oysters produce beautiful pearls when irritated by grains of sand. In view of the length and depth of my irritation, I look forward to hatching one of the biggest fucking pearls in the history of the world.
 

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Posted by Georgia (# 4875) on :
 
For just hanging in there without violence you've got to have earned some heavely brownie points. Still your pain has made for some fabulosly interesting reading.
I can't equal the excellent spiritual journeys already posted but it does occur to me that maybe you could embarass your rector by sayng that when she pointed out your spiritual poverty you felt obliged to come to this group. However you have resolved in future always to put put a fleece before taking up suggestions which could possibly be false prophecies and that the passage regarding testing the spirits has taken on new meaning since you started attending.
In view of your choir experiences re alternative worship ,you could add that your journey continues as you've realised that some of the hymns [ make that most ] that you previously enjoyed have a far too intellectual bent and that you will from now on be looking for worship songs without theological content of any kind as you pursue the path to become as a little child.
Probably wouldnt mention the voices until next week.
BTW Adrian Plass has some excellent picures re spiritual truths I particularly like the one about a jelly fish and a dart board.... Hope this helps-- God bless you on your pilgrimage.

[ 29. October 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: Georgia ]
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
The Episcopal Church has two supplements to its regular hymnal. One of them is an inclusive-language, multi-cultural, "musically accessible" one called "Wonder, Love, & Praise". I loathe it.

I did have the pleasure Monday night, when the rector asked "What's the name of that green hymnal we use, Sine?" of answering "Wonder, Love & Puke". It was the high point of the class as far as I'm concerned.
 

---

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 

quote:

---

Wonder, Love, and Praise continues the numbering of the 1982 hymnal. Beginning with hymn 721, it spreads out a smorgasbord of offerings in a variety of musical styles--German chorale tunes, folk tunes, Taizé songs, spirituals, ballads. You'll find both familiar tunes like "Sine Nomine" coupled with new words (880), and beloved texts like "Abide With Me" in musical settings composed in the last decade (799). There's a delightful Christmas carol in Chinese, Latin-flavored songs in Spanish, and songs with texts as diverse as a Navajo prayer

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Piece O' Cake...

"Love Divine, all loves excelling"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
The Episcopal Church has two supplements to its regular hymnal. One of them is an inclusive-language, multi-cultural, "musically accessible" one called "Wonder, Love, & Praise". I loathe it.

I did have the pleasure Monday night, when the rector asked "What's the name of that green hymnal we use, Sine?" of answering "Wonder, Love & Puke". It was the high point of the class as far as I'm concerned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Piece O' Cake...

"Love Divine, all loves excelling"

---

Hopefully sung to Hyfrydol.

---

Hyfrydol
"Sine Nomine coupled with new words" - I always knew you wrote your own material, but this is a bit much.

I'm with tomb and the Cootster - most spiritual journeys are neither edifying nor happy, whatever the end result.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Piece O' Cake...

"Love Divine, all loves excelling"

---

Hopefully sung to Hyfrydol.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Remembering that WLP is considered a supplement meant to try things out with, not necessarily a polished work, I'm shocked--SHOCKED, mind you--that you loathe WLP. Has it no redeeming value in your mind?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Remembering that WLP is considered a supplement meant to try things out with, not necessarily a polished work, I'm shocked--SHOCKED, mind you--that you loathe WLP. Has it no redeeming value in your mind?

---

Bead, don't make me be real. Of course it's got some redeeming value. I actually like some of the stuff. But I despise it on the general principle of the introduction, which is one of the smarmiest pieces of writing it's ever been my misfortune to read, and encapsulates all I find annoying about the New York Office.

And I find it telling that when Church Publishing put out their CD of selections from WL&P, they had Neswick's* girl's choir do it, as if they knew how puke-making it would sound if done by an adult choir.

* This is not a dig against Bruce, or girl's choirs, so nobody needs to jump to his/their defense.

---

I know! You just don't like music played on a shrunti (or however it is spelled). Kyrie eleison.

Either that, or you don't like Bach chorale preludes.

See, you aren't the only person with a CD player.

Actually, I feel a small need to come to the defense of WL&P (swarminess, notwithstanding). Let's say I know which organ bench Shirley Hill warms these days. Hint.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Actually, I feel a small need to come to the defense of WL&P (swarminess, notwithstanding).

---

quote:

---

You might also choose to draw your spiritual journey. Take a large sheet of blank paper, or tape several together for adequate space. Draw a line that represents your life, showing the ups and downs, turns, circles, or whatever pattern seems right to you. Mark particularly significant events with symbols that represent what they have meant in your faith life. Be creative with this process, using colors to express your feelings at various times or gluing onto the paper other materials that expand and interpret your symbols.

---

quote:

---

From the textbook:
You might also choose to draw your spiritual journey. Take a large sheet of blank paper, or tape several together for adequate space. Draw a line that represents your life, showing the ups and downs, turns, circles, or whatever pattern seems right to you. Mark particularly significant events with symbols that represent what they have meant in your faith life. Be creative with this process, using colors to express your feelings at various times or gluing onto the paper other materials that expand and interpret your symbols.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I'm finally acknowledging that I haven't a clue what spiritual needs are. I'm about at the point where I think if everyone had their emotional needs met, the churches would be empty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenwritez:
Honesty is life to those struggling and death to hypocrites.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
From the textbook:

quote:

---

You might also choose to draw your spiritual journey. Take a large sheet of blank paper, or tape several together for adequate space. Draw a line that represents your life, showing the ups and downs, turns, circles, or whatever pattern seems right to you. Mark particularly significant events with symbols that represent what they have meant in your faith life. Be creative with this process, using colors to express your feelings at various times or gluing onto the paper other materials that expand and interpret your symbols.

---

Oh collage! What fun. This has real possibilities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:

Much better to give fictionalized accounts. Then, when people are trite/want to rehash it/whatever, there's no emotional resonance there to screw you over.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(I think my co-workers in our lunch room are already quite impressed with my spirituality. "Whatcha reading, Sine?" With a sincere, somewhat holy look, "It's my Bible study book, Bubba". Bubba then backs away slowly.)

---

quote:

---

BTW, Bead, I'm ignoring your comment, but I will pray for you to be lifted from the pit of moral degradation in which you currently wallow to a new higher, more spiritual plane. Actually I was thinking more along the lines of putting a picture of Jeff Striker on the collage.

---

In Jeff's full glory, perchance? (It is very meat, right, and our bounden duty to at all times and in all places given thanks unto thee. )

Actually, my flippant question about the condum really wasn't that flippant. There is a book out there that is a collection of essays by gay men on spirituality. I can't find my copy of the book right now, nor can I find it on the web (can't remember the editor's name), or else I'd give the title of the book. It would be good for you to read this right now for some ideas. This book covers the range of gay Christians to gay Buddists. And, Frank Browning, who is none of the above. (That given name was Frank, not Edmund, by the way.)

In Frank Browning's essay, he describes how he was able to relieve a headache that had been bothering him for over a year. All sorts of doctors had tried all sorts of treatments over this time, but the solotion involved, shall we say, a type of physical therapy.

If I remember correctly, Frank Browning retells the story in A Queer Geography, but you miss all the other essays on spirituality. Of course, A Queer Geography wouldn't be bad to read, either, as he ties the Gay Rights movement to American Christian Evangelism.

So, if you are like Frank Browning, a condum may not be out of line in describing your spiritual life.

"Honesty" versus "Too much information"

Good luck.
 

---

Posted by Light (# 4693) on :
 
Whispers: Does she mean "condom" or is my bad English showing???
/Confused Swedish Student
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Light:
Whispers: Does she mean "condom" or is my bad English showing???
/Confused Swedish Student

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenwritez:
Honesty is life to those struggling and death to hypocrites.

---

And downright dangerous if practised with sympathetic, cloying people like the ones Sine appears to have in his group.

Why dangerous? Because whatever he tells them, they will forever refer to, and want to talk about, if he's shown vulnerability, then they'll trample all over it.

Much better to give fictionalized accounts. Then, when people are trite/want to rehash it/whatever, there's no emotional resonance there to screw you over.

Sarkycow

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
]I had a rather interesting idea while reading my textbook at lunch.

(I think my co-workers in our lunch room are already quite impressed with my spirituality. "Whatcha reading, Sine?" With a sincere, somewhat holy look, "It's my Bible study book, Bubba". Bubba then backs away slowly.)...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:
Presumably, you have yet to mention to Bubba your other, er, peculiarities? Or is Bubba one of those whose neck has faded to pink?

---

quote:

---

Originally journaled by Sine:
Since Grits and Tortuf will be at Chez Nomine for lunch on Sunday, I suggest that for post-prandial entertainment, rather than dissing other shipmates (entertaining though that may be), we each write five sentences about our spiritual journey, each sentence on a separate slip of paper. Then all fifteen slips go into a hat, to be pulled out at random and written down as "My Spiritual Journey". That should make it truly unique.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

I am not without a number of Deep Dark Secrets.

---

So are we all, m'dear, and I wouldn't be a pushover on my Deepest Thots either. I can't tell you how horrifying the idea of a spiritual journey as a road map or collage is to me. Maybe you should mix in a few of the contributions to this thread into the edifying tombola. (Well, OK maybe not Bede's )
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:
Oh, and Bede & Sign? No more flirting, please, boys. "Out" does not mean the rest of us need to read everything you say to one another. Thanks eversomuch.

tomb

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Being serious (yuck!) for a nanosecond...

Kenwritez, Sarky of course is not being serious, although her basic point is, and I already recognize that.

I am not without a number of Deep Dark Secrets.

This is a small, random, group. It will take many weeks for me to trust them. Most of them are not people I would naturally take to, which may well be the reason the rector wants me in the group...for My Own Good™. Get me out of my comfort zone, etc.

The ground rules say to share only what you're comfortable with sharing, and not to be uncomfortable with silence. I expect to take advantage of both of those rules. I have already. I will not be pressured into sharing what I don't wish to share. However, what I do choose to share will be honest.

It's already obvious that my approach is totally different, much more intellectual and less touch-feely, than the others in the group. Last Monday, one of the women in the group said she was glad that I had digressed into the dry theology of Grace, because she hadn't really understood what the book was saying. So maybe our different approaches will be complementary.

These people don't seem like deep thinkers, but I'm going to do my best to respect what they think and feel. The program seems smarmy, but I'm going to take it seriously.

HOWEVER...I won't survive it if I can't come here and vent, make fun of it, and be sarcastic. Then I can go back and be a little angel.

I really am going to give it my best shot. But that doesn't mean I'm giving up my sense of irony.

---

Joining you in your momentary lapse into seriousness, Sine, this is exactly how it worked for me when I went through RCIA. There was an awful lot of fluffiness and shallowness, but there were also those moments of sincerity and grace. But I wouldn't have been able to accept the good if I hadn't had a place to vent about the bad.

And I found it good practice for dealing with daily life in the church!
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
...I'm sorry, tomb. After reading your comments on the song "Bind Me Jesus" (now found in Dead Horse thread on bad hymns), I misunderstood where the line was. I do now.....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
To date my spiritual journey is remarkably uninspiring. As best I recall I went to Sunday school & church every damn Sunday from birth to high school graduation. Was an acolyte, etc.

However I don't remember that any of it meant anything other than "that's just what people did." Nor do I remember God or religion ever being talked about at home.

I do remember my Southern Baptist great-aunt, wife and daughter of ministers, getting in my face at a family get-together and telling me how great it was to be saved, and she hoped I would let Jesus into my heart, and she was praying for me. I also remember my excruciating embarrassment and strong desire to get away from her. Oh yes, that memory will stay with me 'til my dying day.

And if truth be told, I started going back to church because I heard a lot of gay men attended and I thought I might make some new, er, friends.

---

quote:

---

Of course at that time I had no idea how remarkably unattractive most gay male church attendees are. (I've never claimed not to be shallow.)

Hmmm....if I throw that one in, do you think it will hurt the feelings of the remarkably unattractive gay male in the group?

---

First, speak for yourself, Bucko! I'll have you know I met my partner in church, and I would like to think I have better taste than that. So there (he says, sticking his tongue out)!

If you do add this piece of humor, though, it might keep him from hitting on you. It might be a price worth paying.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
First, speak for yourself, Bucko! I'll have you know I met my partner in church, and I would like to think I have better taste than that. So there (he says, sticking his tongue out)

---

quote:

---

And if truth be told, I started going back to church because I heard a lot of gay men attended and I thought I might make some new, er, friends. Of course at that time I had no idea how remarkably unattractive most gay male church attendees are. (I've never claimed not to be shallow.)

---

I visited a friend's church and I met the most handsome and delightful guy who unfortunately for moi turned out to be both gay and taken, the old double-whammy.

:sigh:
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
<Psstt! Sine! Just a tip -- best not to refer to your church as a "dung heap" in your little group. They might take you on a "journey" to the nearest dark alley.>

---

quote:

---

Read Psalm 107. This psalm, like many other psalms, tells faith stories of people. Were you to add to this psalm a stanza for your story, how would it read?

---

quote:

---

Be prepared to share your journey with the group in whatever way is comfortable for you. You will have ten to fifteen minutes to share whatever you choose about your story.

---

Ten to fifteen minutes. Dear Lord in Heaven! Don't these morons realize I joined this class because I DON'T HAVE A SPIRITUAL LIFE!

If I already did I wouldn't need the stupid class. They're supposed to be teaching me. And to think I paid twenty bucks for this book.

I'd return it for credit, except I've already written notes in the margins. Sideways, which I understand is a sign of insanity.


 

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Posted by Georgia (# 4875) on :
 
Hey all things work together etc .: I'm a sad person at home the only one awake at 8pm on a saturday night when hey presto I get to interfere in someones spiritual journey.
If you had the perseverence you could go on and on a la python and travel agents.
Some one in our youthgroup got sick of all the testimonies and said something like:
I was drinking a bottle of whiskey a day but when I started drugs then I had to go on the streets to pay for them . I did over some places pinching tv's videos and stuff .. and then I started kindergarten....
Good Luck
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
The sad part is if I really opened up, I could curl their whitebread hair.

Let's just say I've drunk deeply of life in my time. Whenever I am treated to one of Paul's nastier epistles, I sit there going... check...check...check...

I'm gonna fry in Hell.
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Be prepared to share your journey with the group in whatever way is comfortable for you. You will have ten to fifteen minutes to share whatever you choose about your story.

---

---

I think the operative words here are in whatever way is comfortable for you and share whatever you choose about your story.

Stick to those instructions.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Georgia (# 4875) on :
 
Stop it immediately or I'm going to have to say something encouraging and Ive seen what can happen to newbie Pollyannas in hell[ by the way what would the male equivalent be?]
I really loved the idea of shuffling the pack having got various shipmates to write their spiritual journeys.
My son [17] who has attended a christian school tends to say something like 'sharing sucks.'
Another thought springs to mind " Im a sinner saved by grace . Any questions?"
If your tone of voice can imply "go ahead , make my day' so much the better .
You 're completely right, what are they going to do if someone spills their guts, which is why its so artificial and so poorly thought out. The 'that your comfortable with' is a cop out but completely justifies a two line answer or less.

Ive just read the psalm again . You did say ps 107? My NKJ version anyway is all about what God has done and nothing about his peoples faith.See verses15,17, and if you could add a stanza it woud be unlikely to take 10 mins to read and I am now really really angry because its such an impossible execise anyway.
< Addresses Rector>" go away and read the damn Psalm and stop wasting my time " graaaagh
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Most of your "checks" seem to be in the past tense, Sine. Lived and learned, as it were? It's not about degrees or classifications of what we've done, is it? Isn't it about: What have I learned? How do I feel I have grown or changed? How am I letting God in my life more now? Why am I still here? No one will ask for specifics, and there's no need for you to give them.

By the way, I could probably whip up a really cute button for you to wear that says, "Sharing Sucks". But then everyone in the group would want one...
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 

quote:

---

Be prepared to share your journey with the group in whatever way is comfortable for you. You will have ten to fifteen minutes to share whatever you choose about your story.

---

Wasn't one of the watchwords of the group, "Be comfortable with silence"?

Help them test their comfort zones. For fifteen minutes.
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
The sad part is if I really opened up, I could curl their whitebread hair.

Let's just say I've drunk deeply of life in my time. Whenever I am treated to one of Paul's nastier epistles, I sit there going... check...check...check...

I'm gonna fry in Hell.

---

Congratulations, Sine. If what you say is true, you have the material for major sainthood. If you doubt what I say, read an honest bio on Francis of Assisi or Martin Luther. For that matter, what drove Moses to the wilderness from his Egyptian priviledge life was committing a murder.

You see, not only are you preped to be a big-time saint, you are preped to be a leader. (You think I'm joking, don't you?)

You can practice with this group. (All of us have been telling you that, Sine.) There are various ways this can take place.

It is possible that your rector took the chance of adding you to this class is because she is afraid of being bored silly. While she wants you to play well with others, maybe it is your "role" in this group to provide a sparkplug.

Remember. All your friends here at SoF are behind you. Pushing.
 

---

Posted by Lady R of Ashwood (# 4788) on :
 
I've just looked up a lovely little bit of my beloved Mechthild von Magdeburg for you. The idea being that you go in, declare that you were reflecting on having a personal realtionship with Jesus and just felt that really it was just really summed up so well (really -just- sob) by this thirteenth century nearly-saint:

God Singing Response in the Soul
[Flowing Light of the Godhead, II.6, trans Tobin]

'When I shine, you shall glow.
When I flow, you shall become wet.
When you sigh, you draw my divine heart into you.
When you weep in longing for me, I take you in my arms.'

Does that reconcile the emotional/spiritual needs thing? Try adding in some sighing and flowing for effect?!

(Actually I keep meaning to post that quote on the horrible hymns thread to reassure CaroB et al that having-sex-with-Jesus is not a new chorus theme!)

If that doesnt rock the boat, quite frankly they all have more about them than it sounds like, and should be cut more slack. And if it does upset them, then . Just keep it for a night when smiley-bloke has a dental appointment!
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 

quote:

---

God Singing Response in the Soul
[Flowing Light of the Godhead, II.6, trans Tobin]

'When I shine, you shall glow.
When I flow, you shall become wet.
When you sigh, you draw my divine heart into you.
When you weep in longing for me, I take you in my arms.'

---

Oh, my.
:Lyda Rose fans herself:
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Sine, I've been thinking some more about the 'what you feel comfortable with' bit. I think you should dig in your heels, say as much as you're comfortable with, then stop. Make it clear that you will not go beyond your comfort zone in this class.

Life forces us to go beyond our comfort zones in many areas, but this is supposed to be a voluntary activity. Besides that, sharing things you don't want to share does nothing for your spiritual growth. Confession is good for the soul, but that is only when it is made to God, to a priest, and to those we have wronged.

Moo
 

---

Posted by The Coot (Icarus) (# 220) on :
 
Are you sure you're not reading too much into that? It could just be nature imagery...
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Tell them you were born, baptized, confirmed, have sinned a lot and plan to continue doing so, but have recently advised someone to pray about their personal problems ("My mother the lying bitch" thread), which you feel is a major breakthrough. Then sit back and smile in a faintly maniacal way.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I did advise someone to pray, didn't I. No telling what I'll say when I've been drinking. But I think it reflects well on me, considering that I'm only in week 4 of my spiritual development. You guys won't know me after 28 weeks. I'll have to find a more Christian board to post on.

Odd that you say "maniacal", Ruth. We had a friend to dinner a couple of weeks ago and ate on trays in the library. Afterwards, while they were watching TV I went over to check out the ship, and friend said to Sig. Other "doesn't it scare you to see Sine sitting there typing away maniacally?"

Apparently when I get on the ship I get this strange, glazed look in my eyes. Or it could be the bourbon.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Congratulations, Sine. If what you say is true, you have the material for major sainthood. If you doubt what I say, read an honest bio on Francis of Assisi or Martin Luther. For that matter, what drove Moses to the wilderness from his Egyptian priviledge life was committing a murder.

---

Doesn't always work - consider the somewhat nauseating St Therese of Liseux. St Teresa of Avila may be a better bet - fond of roast goose and a major league ecstatic. Now there's a propect to conjure with for your next meeting. Stigmata are another possibility.
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
A maniacal saint, that's a thought. Here's a possibility, old St. Joe of Cupertino the Flying Saint. He did the usual thing of "mortifying the flesh" but he generally kept his good humor and had a grand old time levitating.

He'd take off when he'd hear a bell, a beautiful hymn, or any other holy thing that would send him into an estatic response. His superiors wouldn't let him do the mundane monkly things because people around him would be waiting with bated breath to see what in his energetic sanctity he would do next. He definitely interfered with the Rule. Not at all the Little Flower of Jesus type.

Although I think you could dispense with the self-abuse (of St. Joe's sort ) I think you should seriously consider adding miraculous flight to your spiritual formation.

The advice above offered in the spirit of the last 5 minutes of All Saints Sunday PST.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Well, my dears, it wasn't looking good for ole Sine tonight.

The rector started off with her story. It was warm and honest. It was touching. It had drama and conflict. Then we had two minutes to say something affirming about the story. I said "That was affirming."

Next up was a young woman who grew up Southern Baptist and went to a Baptist school. She was very active in Campus Crusade for Christ, but had several jolts that tried her faith in organized religion, but she never doubted that God loved her. Her biggest jolt came when she realized she was a lesbian. (I would have thought that the fact she got an athletic scholarship for college might have been a giveaway -- for softball, no less. But that is neither here nor there.)

After several years of being away from the church, she found St. Withit, which has helped her find her way back to God. At this point she broke down in tears. I checked my manicure.

Then it was Smiley Boy's turn. (BTW, he came in late and sat next to me.) He, too, grew up Southern Baptist and always knew Jesus was his friend. He was baptized in the fifth grade, when he accepted Jesus as his personal saviour. He knows God is calling him for something, but just doesn't know what yet.

At this point Sine is wondering if he pretend to have a sudden and violent stomach cramp and rush out the room, not to return.

Then finallly, a woman spoke who basically said that she didn't have a clue and was taking the class so she could find out. Actually, it was quite moving because her baby daughter almost died last year from heart trouble. She said that it wasn't the fact that her baby had lived that had given her faith, but the support and prayers of the community of faith.

She gave me courage to pull out my two page, typed, Spiritual Autobiography. I started off by saying "My Spiritual Autobiography, by Sine Nomine". That got a laugh. I kept them amused for a good ten minutes. I managed to say things in code that meant something to me and to my rector without going into specifics. When it was my turn to be affirmed, someone complimented me on my honesty, which had essentially amounted to saying "I'm clueless". Someone else said it was moving, yet charming. I said "Yes, I've got charm down pat." which got me another laugh and kudos for my honesty.

On the plus side, a good friend of mine has joined the group. I'm his son's godfather. On the way out he said "You're awful."
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
... I'm only in week 4 of my spiritual development. You guys won't know me after 28 weeks. I'll have to find a more Christian board to post on....

---

This sounds like you bought one of those machines off cable TV with a credit card: "Spiritual Enlightenment and Ripped Abs...." Hawked by Suzanne Sommers--she of the cartilaginous lips with her polished gray hair and colored contact lenses.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who would stoop to something like that is Shallow, no matter how many people they heal.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I have never claimed not to be shallow. But, at least I put myself in a place where God's redeeming Grace* can work on me...bitch.

I like to think that when I am saved there will be a great deal of rejoicing in Heaven. I like to think the cherubim, seraphim, etc. will say "Christ! (if you'll pardon the expression), He really is omnipotent!"

* Which we learned about last week. Lesson Three.
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
You know, Sign, that the frightening thing about this is that, at some point in this ordeal you're gonna have something resembling a Spiritual Experience (think of it as an orgasm of the brain) and will be absolutely worthless until Lent when the buzz starts to wear off.

We'll do our best not to be nasty to you or patronize you in Hell until you get over it.

Promise.
 

---

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :
 
Sine, I love you like a brother. And, I would leave you alone, friendless and deserted, in a split second if you asked me to go to that group.

I am noted for running with scissors and not playing well with others in "spiritual" group settings. Perhaps it is my inner demon asserting itself.

You, on the other hand, seem to exhibit a preternatural patience with the group, coded snide remarks and all. Maybe the exercise for you is to discover how patient you really are.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I like to think the cherubim, seraphim, etc. will say "Christ! (if you'll pardon the expression), He really is omnipotent!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:
You, on the other hand, seem to exhibit a preternatural patience with the group, coded snide remarks and all. Maybe the exercise for you is to discover how patient you really are.

---

I would have been extremely rude, subtlely of course, about their stories. Then again, I would have made up a spiritual journey, and dared the rector to call my bluff.

You did good for at least telling the truth. Even if it was in code.

When they take you away for a weekend, and pray for the Holy Spirit to come into your life, we'll close this thread as no longer needed

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Ak-shually, I do rather believe there is a retreat planned toward the end of the program.

I got to hold hands with Smiley Boy and Softball Girl when we prayed at the end of the evening last night. Softball Girl had a firm, manly grip. Smiley Boy's hand was soft, boneless and somewhat damp.

Next week is "Living As Covenant Community". That has an unfortunate resemblance to "coven" in my mind. Do they come from the same root word, I wonder?
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Next week is "Living As Covenant Community". That has an unfortunate resemblance to "coven" in my mind. Do they come from the same root word, I wonder?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Next week is "Living As Covenant Community". That has an unfortunate resemblance to "coven" in my mind. Do they come from the same root word, I wonder?

---

Does this have anything to do with giving them money? Covenanting is tithing I'm thinking...

If so, best declare yourself bankrupt

Oh, and from Merriam-Webster Online

quote:

---

Coven
Etymology: Middle English covin band, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin convenium agreement, from Latin convenire to agree.

---

quote:

---

Covenant
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from present participle of covenir to agree, from Latin convenire to agree.

---

I think this says it all

[Added bold for emphasis.]

[ 04. November 2003, 13:26: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
 

---

Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
I've been watching this topic with great interest...

I don't want to hijack your thread, Sine, but I just thought I'd throw this in:
I recently went to the first meeting of an Alpha course, because various friends had plugged it as a forum where I could raise all my questions and get intelligent, non-simplistic answers.
Au contraire. It started with a talk, with painfully bad jokes, worship songs, and a not very comprehensive argument for why Jesus was God. (Well, actually, it *started* with a bowl of soup for which they charged me £4, but that's irrelevant.) Then we split into groups for "discussion."
I had thought long and hard before I went, about whether I would play the sarcastic, subversive devil's advocate, or the earnest seeker who just can't quite see how things fit together. I opted for the latter.
The small group leader had been primed with questions to ask us if discussion got slack, and they were all written with people in mind who had never considered the claims of Christianity before, instead of the existing group, which consisted of one earnest seeker clawing her way back from atheism, one guy from another church, and about six people from the church running the course, complete with identical paste-on smiles and the view that everything makes sense once you give your life to Jesus.

Leader: So has the talk changed your perception of who Jesus was?
<Silence>
Leader: You can say no if you want.
Me: No.
Leader: Why not?
Me: I don't mean to be rude, but I've heard the exact same talk several times before.

And so it went on. I had expected there to be a couple of militant atheists in the group, but in fact, with my relatively innocuous questions like "How do we know the words of Jesus written in the Bible are the same ones he spoke a generation previously?" and "What happens if you pray for faith and don't receive it?", I came across as by far the most sceptical person there. I felt like something of an intruder. If it weren't for me they could have got on with nodding their heads and repeating that Jesus was God, in peace.
I decided I wasn't getting anywhere, and haven't been back.

Anyway, my question, after that longish preamble, is: do you think I *should* go back anyway, and be brutally honest or make things up or both, and unsettle the complacent paste-on faces?

Slight tangent: Before the course started, someone from the church I used to go to actually told me that I ought *not* to go to the Alpha course, because I express doubts, and other Christians might be deconverted by exposure to me and my doubts.
 

---

Posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist (# 4081) on :
 
Talitha,

Very similar thoughts have been troubling me. Recently a christian friend of mine was suggesting a non-Christian mutual friend of ours visit a kind of discussion group at his church. It sounded rather interesting, until I realised it was the alpha course.

Now I have done the Alpha course, been a small group leader no less. But I do worry about the effect I could have if I joined a group with my present doubts and angst. This may be a delusion of how powerful I am, but I do agree how someone speaking honestly could seriously upset the smiley faces riding on the apple cart.

Maybe someone needs to start an alternative group for the backslidden issue-laden misfits who might sabotage an alpha course. But they might be asking for trouble.

OOT

(or maybe they did already... it's called the Ship... )
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist:
Maybe someone needs to start an alternative group for the backslidden issue-laden misfits who might sabotage an alpha course. But they might be asking for trouble.

---

quote:

---

(or maybe they did already... it's called the Ship... )

---

quote:

---

(or maybe they did already... it's called the Ship... )

---

Absolutely. Yay for the Ship.
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist:
Maybe someone needs to start an alternative group for the backslidden issue-laden misfits who might sabotage an alpha course. But they might be asking for trouble.

OOT

(or maybe they did already... it's called the Ship... )

---

Actually, it was mentioned earlier in the thread -- it's (somewhat mis-)called EFM, Education for Ministry (a seminary-level theology course offered in small groups over four years). My particular EFM group is a theological drinking, eating and bulshitting society. We do occasionally hold hands to pray, but by then we're all tipsy, so it's okay from an Episcopal perspective.

I've already told Sine he got on the wrong bus. But perhaps God wanted him to do this one for some inscrutable purpose.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
I've already told Sine he got on the wrong bus. But perhaps God wanted him to do this one for some inscrutable purpose.

---

Well, I thought this would be good Starter Spirituality. A) It's only twenty-eight weeks, and B) the book was only twenty bucks. Four years seemed a little overwhelming.

Much like Saint Augustine, I don't want to rush into this holiness thing. Best to start off at the shallow end of the pool when you can't swim. And this pool is pretty shallow.
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
"The Holiness Thing"!?!? Me??

(think I've hurt myself)

I'm doing a baked ham and assparagus casserole for my group tonight -- what do you think with that? White? Red? Champagne?
 

---

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:

I'm doing a baked ham and assparagus casserole for my group tonight -- what do you think with that? White? Red? Champagne?

---

quote:

---

A) It's only twenty-eight weeks,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
I've already told Sine he got on the wrong bus. But perhaps God wanted him to do this one for some inscrutable purpose.

---

Well, I thought this would be good Starter Spirituality. A) It's only twenty-eight weeks, and B) the book was only twenty bucks. Four years seemed a little overwhelming.

Much like Saint Augustine, I don't want to rush into this holiness thing. Best to start off at the shallow end of the pool when you can't swim. And this pool is pretty shallow. (emphasis added to original)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alt Wally:

quote:

---

A) It's only twenty-eight weeks,

---

Didn't something go off in your brain when you typed that?

---

quote:

---

by SN: I foolishly assumed, for no particular reason, that it was probably around twelve weeks.

---

Twelve weeks sounds awfffuuuly long to me.
 

---

Posted by Lady R of Ashwood (# 4788) on :
 
Firstly this is my favourite comedy thread at the moment. Sine, perhaps you could say that you were told that by sharing your spiritual experiences within the group with a total stranger you had improved the quality of their day?

As for Alpha, I just asked Lord R what he thought. He had a very positive experience of it as a new christian. I had a quite mediocre experience of it as an old (? as in not new) christian. One of my best friends and her boyf had a bloody awful experience of it as an old and very very well informed christian and a staggeringly intelligent non-christian. Lord R reckons that if you are pretty new to the faith, and have a good group, and are not looking for the sophisticated answers, then it is excellent. Esp the group though - a lot of its plus points for him were clearing up the basics in a forum with great folk. (have read this to Lord R and he says that sums it up pretty well).

The problem with Alpha is that the CofE et al seem to think that it is THE answer and that everyone would benifit from going on the course. Which it is not. And they wouldn't. I am tempted to give it a slagging, but I am aware that many people find it very helpful. It doesnt exactly address questions like 'how Christ can be both fully-man and fully-God' though. Oh, and the weekend away is all about the Holy Spirit. In fact maybe it is for you Sine - it might be just that spiritual experience you have been straining after!
 

---

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lady R of Ashwood:



The problem with Alpha is that the CofE et al seem to think that it is THE answer and that everyone would benifit from going on the course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lady R of Ashwood:
Oh, and the weekend away is all about the Holy Spirit. In fact maybe it is for you Sine - it might be just that spiritual experience you have been straining after!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Oh dear. The lyrics are copywrited. Should have known it. But perhaps just a bit of a quote, to whet your appetite.

"Companions, we are companions on the journey of life. We are companions by the Spirit in one holy bond of peace..."

Well, actually, that's pretty much it, 'cause it just kinda repeats for a while.

Needless to say, guitar chords are provided.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
"Companions, we are companions on the journey of life. We are companions by the Spirit in one holy bond of peace..."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Next up was a young woman who grew up Southern Baptist and went to a Baptist school. She was very active in Campus Crusade for Christ, but had several jolts that tried her faith in organized religion, but she never doubted that God loved her. Her biggest jolt came when she realized she was a lesbian. (I would have thought that the fact she got an athletic scholarship for college might have been a giveaway -- for softball, no less. But that is neither here nor there.)

After several years of being away from the church, she found St. Withit, which has helped her find her way back to God. At this point she broke down in tears. I checked my manicure.

---

You know, I've been bothered by this thread from the beginning, but the above quote just about sent me over the edge.

Sine---have you ever thought about what your fellow classmates might feel about the things you have written about them if they were to stumble across them? Wonder what your rector would say if she knew that you are doing this? I bet she wouldn't find it "affirming" in the least.

I'm almost certain that you agreed to confidentiality when you joined that group. You haven't posted people's names, but anyone who goes to "St. Withit" would know who they are. How do you square a promise of confidentiality with what you have done here?

What you're doing here is not having a conversation---the Ship is a fucking library, which records for posterity all your disdain towards people who are making an honest attempt to improve their relationship with God. They may be smarmy or not as smart as you, but at least they are honest. You are being dishonest, and cruel to boot. If you had an ounce of integrity you'd quit that fucking group, but I guess you get too much mileage out of making fun, don't you? After all, this thread has gone to 5 pages now, and shows no sign of letting up any time soon.

And why, you may well ask, has Paige got her knickers in a twist about this? Because two weeks ago, I was asked to share my spiritual journey for the last year with my 3rd-year EFM class. That journey has been, and continues to be, a very rocky one---and when I was talking about it, I burst into tears in front of my classmates.

And now I have to face the fact that my honest emotional outburst could very likely be fodder for fun and derision by people I ought to be able to trust. Just like the people in your group ought to be able to say what they need or want to say without having to worry that their most intimate thoughts and feelings will be posted on a fucking international discussion board.
 

---

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 

quote:

---

by Sine: This was a bit more what I had in mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
"Companions, we are companions on the journey of life. We are companions by the Spirit in one holy bond of peace..."

---

It's not exactly the Christian Internationale, is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by paigeb:
Wonder what your rector would say if she knew that you are doing this? I bet she wouldn't find it "affirming" in the least.

I'm almost certain that you agreed to confidentiality when you joined that group. You haven't posted people's names, but anyone who goes to "St. Withit" would know who they are. How do you square a promise of confidentiality with what you have done here?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by paigeb:
They may be smarmy or not as smart as you, but at least they are honest. You are being dishonest, and cruel to boot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
"Companions, we are companions on the journey of life. We are companions by the Spirit in one holy bond of peace..."

---

It's not exactly the Christian Internationale, is it?

---

I thought the Christian Internationale was on this web site, under "Anthem of the Revolution."

---

Bede!! What a truly fabulous monstrance on the link "Anglo-Catholic Socialism"! Gladdened the heart of this old Socialist anyway.
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
....Actually, it was mentioned earlier in the thread -- it's (somewhat mis-)called EFM, Education for Ministry (a seminary-level theology course offered in small groups over four years). My particular EFM group is a theological drinking, eating and bulshitting society. We do occasionally hold hands to pray, but by then we're all tipsy, so it's okay from an Episcopal perspective. ...

---

quote:

---

tomb wrote: And there is nothing scarier than a post-menopausal female with a Christian license to Meddle and Bother.People.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Please don't tell me that all the future holds for me are small groups and multiple layers of pastel chiffon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:
There is just nothing I can write that won't involve a pun about you and your organ and chiffon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:
Tomb, I have started to post in response to you a couple of times now. There is just nothing I can write that won't involve a pun about you and your organ and chiffon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by paigeb:
And why, you may well ask, has Paige got her knickers in a twist about this? Because two weeks ago, I was asked to share my spiritual journey for the last year with my 3rd-year EFM class. That journey has been, and continues to be, a very rocky one---and when I was talking about it, I burst into tears in front of my classmates.

And now I have to face the fact that my honest emotional outburst could very likely be fodder for fun and derision by people I ought to be able to trust. Just like the people in your group ought to be able to say what they need or want to say without having to worry that their most intimate thoughts and feelings will be posted on a fucking international discussion board.

---

Oh, poor you. My heart bleeds.

I recently finished teaching an adult confirmation class which ran concurrently with a class for the Already Anglicanized taught by our rector. We decided to put the two classes together for the last night and have them write a brief statement about why they are Episcopalians and/or why they are at our parish and share with a small group. But first we figured we'd better be willing to answer that question ourselves.

I didn't prepare at all for this - stupid me, I know - because I figured I could reel off an answer to the question of why I'm an Episcopalian in my sleep. The rector went first, and while he was speaking I realized that I'd better think fast and get ready to give a real answer, and not my canned spiel. So I made a couple of notes while he was still talking, notes I didn't look at once while I spoke for several minutes straight from my heart with tears in my voice almost the entire time. In front of about 40 people, some of whom are very dear to me and some of whom I barely know.

I almost never speak straight from my heart, and certainly had never done so in front of 40 people. And I cringed for a week every time I thought about this little episode. But it was a good thing to do, and I really learned something. The responses I got were heartwarming, especially the one from one of our fish fork and fine linen Episcopalians, a woman with whom I never expected to have a real conversation, who talked to me as a human being for the first time in the ten years I've known her.

The point of this story? If someone who was there that night lampooned me on this thread for being maudlin, I wouldn't blame them at all. I was maudlin. I put my insides on display in front of a roomful of people in a way that could make tap dancing in my underwear on the table in front of them look tasteful. Everyone who spoke to me about it afterward was naturally very wonderful, but if four or five of them rolled their eyes when I wasn't looking and thought, "Good grief, when is this woman going to get a grip?" I had it coming.

Why, Paige, would it be such a big deal if people made fun of you for crying? Would it make what you said less valid, less meaningful? Would it take anything at all away from your spiritual journey and its importance to you?
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I would hope Sine would not be cowed into discontinuing his commentary (not that he shows any signs thereof).

While I am unlikely to be going to any Christian group (for which, did I believe in the Lord, I would be inclined to praise Him), there are plenty of other fora in which people try, excruciatingly, to articulate some deeper sense of Who and Why. Everything from Management Away Days to Jungian Dream Groups: been there, identify with Sine...

For the other thing is that I too am cursed with seeing the funny side. In all and every therapy/sharing/whatever situation, the therapist/leader/enabler will at some point lean over and say 'you're using humour as a defense mechanism'. And I will lean back and reply 'I am sorry; I suffer from two dreadful conditions, Wit and Poetry. It's innate: I can't help it. So pity me.'
 

---

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Sine, you know my thoughts on all this. You keep going. And keep being as honest as you can be. And keep coming back here and blowing off steam, and giving us a laugh

(At last, someone's smacked you down for Not.Being.Christian™. It's like a milestone, the passing of which marks you out as a true denizen of Hell. In a good way )
 

---

Posted by paigeb (# 2261) on :
 
Sine---first of all, there was not one thing in my post to you that gave any hint that I know your personal situation. You are the one who has now made that public knowledge. So I think YOU owe ME an apology. (FTR, I would have been just as offended if you lived in Canberra or Timbuktu.)

Did you, or did you not, promise to keep what goes on in that group confidential? If you didn't, then I WILL apologize to you.
 

---

Posted by The Coot (Icarus) (# 220) on :
 
Sine babe, I don't wanna know about Smiley Boy and Softball Girl. I wanna hear about Sleazy Sexual Explorer. Has he put the hard word on you yet or wot?

How does one convey with taste, propriety and subtlety en passant in sharing one's spiritual experience that not only are you not attracted to the Sleazy Sexual Explorers of the world, but you also wouldn't want to stick a broom up them in dark closet.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Oh, something like "Through God's grace, I have learned to live with my herpes" should take care of it, I would think.

Of course that runs the risk that the following Sunday at the coffee hour everyone backs away from you like you're a leper. But, frankly, that would be a good test of the confidentiality of the group experience.
 

---

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Oh, something like "Through God's grace, I have learned to live with my herpes" should take care of it, I would think.

Of course that runs the risk that the following Sunday at the coffee hour everyone backs away from you like you're a leper. But, frankly, that would be a good test of the confidentiality of the group experience.

---

Nice idea

And this?

quote:

---

Of course that runs the risk that the following Sunday at the coffee hour everyone backs away from you like you're a leper.

---

Is there a problem with this happening?

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Talitha:
...
I recently went to the first meeting of an Alpha course...
If it weren't for me they could have got on with nodding their heads and repeating that Jesus was God, in peace.
I decided I wasn't getting anywhere, and haven't been back.

Anyway, my question, after that longish preamble, is: do you think I *should* go back anyway, and be brutally honest or make things up or both, and unsettle the complacent paste-on faces?

Slight tangent: Before the course started, someone from the church I used to go to actually told me that I ought *not* to go to the Alpha course, because I express doubts, and other Christians might be deconverted by exposure to me and my doubts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:
Well, Laura, your EFM groups are sure a lot different from the ones around here. We have a disproportionate percentage of middle-aged housewives who "do" EFM and suddenly discover a Call to the perpetual diaconate.

And there is nothing scarier than a post-menopausal female with a Christian license to Meddle and Bother.People. Watching one of those women reading the Gospel with that determined glazed-look in her eyes is reminiscent of the original Curse of the Body Snatchers the way those folks looked right after they came out of their Pods.

---

Tomb,

This is extremely frightening. Is a group of chiffon-wearing deacons going to appear in the night and take all of my Jones New York suits, black sweaters and peg-leg Levis?

Apropos of your organ, I remember a lovely article written about the refurbishment of the organ at a parish I used to attend, which spoke eloquently of "[the very gay organist]'s magnificent organ". Couldn't believe this had slipped past the editorial staff.
 

---

Posted by paigeb (# 2261) on :
 
I want to apologize profusely to Sine, and to the rest of you. Whatever my feelings about the issue, I should have raised them in a constructive way and not attacked a fellow shipmate. I am deeply embarrassed by my action.

I am a piss-poor example of a Christian on a GOOD day---yesterday was not a good day. Part of the reason my spiritual journey has been so hard is because of my temper. I know it isn't very hellish, but I would appreciate it if you would pray for me. I'm going to take a little break from posting until I can learn to engage my brain (and my heart) before I start typing.

Peace,
Paige
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Well, dang. Nothing to mock there.

Paige:
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
....Apropos of your organ, I remember a lovely article written about the refurbishment of the organ at a parish I used to attend, which spoke eloquently of "[the very gay organist]'s magnificent organ". Couldn't believe this had slipped past the editorial staff.

---

quote:

---

I guess my kinds of questions
(sample: "Why have you never been angry with God?") aren't all that common.

---

requires further scrutiny.

I have to ask a few questions before I decide whether it is necessary to heap scorn on you or not:
What is the context of this question? Did someone actually say they had never been angry with God?

And if someone says 'I have never been angry with X', it usually means 'X has never given me cause to be angry', making the question rather superfluous. Except of course if it is one of those wannabe-provocative pop psychology ones that I... love to death. In which case, start as you mean to continue, and ask directly.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 
Drat you, Coot and Henry Troup. The more I think about "Why have you never been angry with God?" the worse it gets.

Rhetorical flourish Punctuation

"Why - have you never been angry with God?"

Divine Tantrum Buddy

"Why have you never been angry, with God?"

Hidden context

[Everyone gets angry with God. What's wrong with you?]

It's a classic leading question of the "When did you stop beating your wife?" variety
 

---

Posted by The Coot (Icarus) (# 220) on :
 

Masterful analysis, Ms Seraphim. You know, I can hear all the different voice inflections in my head too now!

[Edit: that's 'head' not 'had' which is the short way I refer to my haddock. But sometimes I hear the voices there too]

[ 06. November 2003, 05:01: Message edited by: The Coot (Icarus) ]
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot (Icarus):

[Edit: that's 'head' not 'had' which is the short way I refer to my haddock. But sometimes I hear the voices there too]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot (Icarus):
...Did someone actually say they had never been angry with God?

And if someone says 'I have never been angry with X', it usually means 'X has never given me cause to be angry', making the question rather superfluous. ...

---

quote:

---

This was a bit more what I had in mind.

---

Oooh - an Anorexic having an Ecstacy - well why didnt you say Sine, I could have given you tips.

Hurrah for Nuns .

[Not sure if I have mastered inserting quotes - we shall see]

{No you haven't go back to quote school.}

[ 08. November 2003, 12:46: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
There you go, Lady R, reminding me that I've got to get my book out and work hard on this coming week's lesson. I've been reading it every day at lunch at work. This coven stuff really is scary.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
So what happened this week?
 

---

Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
Sine I love this thread. Three cheers for you and may your flippancy never grow less.

I would like to know if your group has Open Prayer and if so, do you contribute? Or do you stare at the floor feeling horribly embarrassed? My church, including a study group I attend from time to time, is very hot on extempore prayer and I get funny looks when I say I don't do it. (I might open my mouth but nothing would come out. Too embarrassing, too private, too personal, also I would want to laugh at the wrong moments).

So, how do you deal with Prayer at your group? Something tells me you're not a 'really just, Lord' person. Maybe you have some tips for me? Some useful one-liners to offer next time I am in an Awkward Group Prayer Situation? Do share.

Boopy
 

---

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Here you go Boopy. In a spirit of Christian Love™ , I offer you this prayer. Feel free to steal it and use it as you wish:

quote:

---

Loving Lord Jesus,
I really just wanna thank you for such a *lovely day/wonderful group time/special bunch of people. Lord, you really have just *provided greatly for us/moved mightily here, and I just really wanna *thank/praise you for that. I wanna really just *praise/lift up your name Lord, because you are a mighty Lord, and you do mighty works in our lives. Thank you Lord Jesus. Amen.

---

* Delete as appropriate.

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I came home Monday night and with the horror fresh upon me typed madly for twenty minutes and then managed to lose it. Let me see if I can recapture the feeling…

I was somewhat alarmed when I saw a box of Kleenex™ on the table when I arrived. I immediately thought of funeral home parlors and therapist’s offices (so I’ve been told). Fortunately it was just because the rector had a cold, but still, it was an ominous sign.

Oh my. Well…we didn’t finish with everyone’s spiritual journey the week before so we had three to go, and they were doozies.

My friend, who joined the group late, went first. It was WAY too much info considering a couple of little bombshells he dropped about his mother and his wife. The problem being that I socialize with him and his wife, and am always invited over when his mom and dad are in town. I’m never going to be able to look either of them straight in the eye again. The gratuitous bits of information weren’t necessary for the overall effect of the story. I could have gone my entire life quite happily without knowing that his mother had an affair with his dad’s cousin. Moi certainly didn’t mention a little slip or two when I told my spiritual journey. I think a nice generic “our relationship has had its ups and downs like everyone’s has” is more than sufficient for people you’ve only been around a month or so. Gut spilling is quite over-rated as far as I’m concerned. What was he thinking?

But everyone else held up cards with 9.5 on them when it was time to be affirming. Sine, however, stared at the table and remained silent.

It went downhill from there.

Next up was a woman who hereafter shall be known at “Ms Mystical”. Although raised as a conventional Missouri Synod Lutheran (oxymoron?), she has developed a strong devotion to the BVM, doubtlessly from working for some years at a Sisters of Charity hospital. Ms Mystical had a Roman Catholic friend at the hospital who went with her to some place in the former Jugoslavia (Croatia?) where the BVM apparently is hanging out on a regular basis these days. (Sorry to be a bad reporter. I should have taken notes, but was too busy staring at the tabletop.) Apparently at this village if you stare at the sun, it whirls around and streamers of color shoot out of it. There were no sendings while she was there but her silver rosary turned gold, which apparently is a fairly common miracle in those parts. As proof she passed her rosary around so we could see it. “Feel the power”, as it were. I refrained from saying that I, too, was familiar with that miracle from my own silver. But at my house we refer to it as “tarnish”.

Everyone else was affirming, but the cat had Sine’s tongue.

The last spiritual journey was so agonizing I was getting ready to pass the Kleenex™ around. Whoa! So dreadful I won’t even go into it except to say it involved suicide, death of loved ones from alcoholism, Roman Catholic grandmothers from Hell, and deep bouts of depression. All the while, I’m trying to remember the woman’s name. What ever happened to starting out with “What’s your sign?”

The affirmation was deafening. Sine was beyond speech. All I could think of to say was “I’m surprised you’re still alive”, but I didn’t think that would go over very well.

Then, to finish we stood and joined hands. The rector said we were going to do “sentence prayers”, a concept with which Sine was unfamiliar. Apparently you just offer up to God whatever thought crosses you little pea brain, instead of reading reliable, decent, authorized, prayers from the BCP.

Everyone offered up deep, warm thots, except Sine who…you guessed it…remained silent.

Next week we will discuss coven, I mean covenant, formation.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Jeez, you poor bastard.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

Everyone offered up deep, warm thots, except Sine who…you guessed it…remained silent.

Next week we will discuss coven, I mean covenant, formation.

---

quote:

---

But everyone else held up cards with 9.5 on them when it was time to be affirming.

---

You really are kidding here, aren't you? Because I have a big problem with this whole affirmation thing. If people are going to "share" or spill their guts, or whatever, they shouldn't be subjected to any kind of rating or -- what I assume you meant -- laying on of platitudes. Even if you aren't really holding up cards,Olympics-style, (forgive me for being thick, but, Jesus! you are kidding, aren't you?)it seems dangerous to set up any kind of dynamic where the participants are looking for (or even competing for) public sympathy. These biographies should be followed by a moment of quiet and then a "thank you." The best form of affirmation, in my book, is acceptance and respect.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
The worst thing was my friend and I walked out to the parking lot together. (Actually, I was power-walking as fast as I could.) I could tell he was waiting for a postive, affirmative comment.

I failed him totally. Not a word would come that I could repeat out loud. Just a fake, overly cheerful "Have a nice week. "

Sine slams car door. Hits automatic door locks, and screeches out of the parking lot, burning rubber.
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Well, giving and receiving comfort is certainly appropriate between friends, but there's something about this little scenario that troubles me. I am wondering if that family drama is something he had been desperate to talk to you about... in which case, he shouldn't have used a group situation to unburden himself.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:

---

But everyone else held up cards with 9.5 on them when it was time to be affirming.

---

You really are kidding here, aren't you? Because I have a big problem with this whole affirmation thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
I am wondering if that family drama is something he had been desperate to talk to you about...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I came home Monday night and with the horror fresh upon me typed madly for twenty minutes and then managed to lose it. Let me see if I can recapture the feeling…
...
Next week we will discuss coven, I mean covenant, formation.

---

I think (honestly) that it was a Good Thing™--call it a gift from God--that the original scribblings from Monday were lost. By thinking about this for a few days, you have had a chance to filter through this a bit, editing out the unnecessary details.

What are the qualifications for your rector to lead group therapy? That is what she is doing. If she is not trained in how to facillitate a threapy group, there could be some nasty results. (You still have my PM about a weekend I was on back during my previous life, don't you?) Actually, I think you are smart enough not to become too emmeshed in this group's illness. Unfortunately it sounds like everyone else has passed by the sign that reads "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" (or whatever it reads!)

At what point do you stand up among the broken pin ball machines and start screaming "We're not goin' to take it!"

 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
(You still have my PM about a weekend I was on back during my previous life, don't you?)

---

No. I trash all of your PMs immediately upon reading.

I keep all (both) of Dyfrig's, though.

You do raise an interesting question however. The answer is "I have no idea." I assume she had counseling 101 in seminary. She is an excellent listener, as I have cause to know. And her advice to me in one on one situations has always been helpful.

But, yes, considering a big deal was made of the fact that this was not supposed to be group therapy, we do seem to be teetering on the edge of it sometimes.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Told ya so, Sine.

And now your rector's cooked herself up the problem of a small intimate spiritually superior group within the larger congregation. What's she going to do about the other folks? What's going to happen with the relationship between the Parfait Coven and the ordinary joes?
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
At what point do you stand up among the broken pin ball machines and start screaming "We're not goin' to take it!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
What's going to happen with the relationship between the Parfait Coven and the ordinary joes?

---

Actually we've got two groups going. But the other one is moderated by a seminarian, and therefore can't be as spiritual as we are.

By reading ahead (doubtlessly a no-no) in the book, I'm under the impression we're supposed to be leaven in the congregation. An example to which all can aspire. And we will, of course, be called to a life of Christian service, which I do hope doesn't include the Building & Grounds Committee, since I hate pulling weeds.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
No you're not. Or rather, you may be leaven, Sine: a little one-celled saint amidst the dough, but the group as a whole will be cliquey and holier-than-thou. The rest of the congregation will, at best, get bored with you-all fast.
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
Jesus.

This has almost ceased being amusing and has started being scary. Kudos for maintaining your sanity.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
the group as a whole will be cliquey and holier-than-thou. The rest of the congregation will, at best, get bored with you-all fast.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
This has almost ceased being amusing and has started being scary.

---

quote:

---

BTW, in case anyone found this sentence a bit puzzling

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I thought this was in reference to the song by 1980's hair metal band Twisted Sister. I'm serious too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scot:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I thought this was in reference to the song by 1980's hair metal band Twisted Sister. I'm serious too.

---

So did I Wally. Apparently we are not old, gay, or informed enough.

However, I did get a really cool mental image of Sine sporting mountains of curly blond hair, more makeup than a two-bit whore, and studded leather fingerless gloves. In my mind's eye, he jumped up on the table in the church basement, kicked over the Kleenex and candles, then belted out a fabulous impression of Dee Snyder. The group only gave him a 3.5 (except for the Croatian judge, who gave him a 10).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Here you go Boopy. In a spirit of Christian Love™ , I offer you this prayer. Feel free to steal it and use it as you wish:

quote:

---

Loving Lord Jesus,
I really just wanna thank you for such a *lovely day/wonderful group time/special bunch of people. Lord, you really have just *provided greatly for us/moved mightily here, and I just really wanna *thank/praise you for that. I wanna really just *praise/lift up your name Lord, because you are a mighty Lord, and you do mighty works in our lives. Thank you Lord Jesus. Amen.

---

* Delete as appropriate.

Sarkycow

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
At what point do you stand up among the broken pin ball machines and start screaming "We're not goin' to take it!"

---

BTW, in case anyone found this sentence a bit puzzling, Mr. Successor is making a reference to the Stonewall Riots. Unfortunately, I don't carry a large handbag to class, although I do carry a bookbag with my textbook, the BCP, and the Oxford annotated NRSV, with which I could smack someone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Wally, have you considered a spiritual formation class? Or perhaps a Christian Holiday Camp? (Fun for the whole family I hear.)

I bet either one could fix those issues right up. You just need a support group to spill your guts to.

Baptism is just the beginning of the process you know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I joke about being the only person in North America that actually liked that movie. Maybe it isn't a joke, after all.

---

quote:

---

Heavenly Father, I just wanna offer back to you all that has been shared this week. Take it and use it*. Amen.

---

*As you say this bit, try mentally adding "To line your trashcan"

Have you tried making patronising comments when affirmation time rolls around? Something like:

"Isn't it amazing that God never gives us more than we can handle?"



Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Have you tried making patronising comments when affirmation time rolls around? Something like:

"Isn't it amazing that God never gives us more than we can handle?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Have you tried making patronising comments when affirmation time rolls around? Something like:

"Isn't it amazing that God never gives us more than we can handle?"

---

I would have, but I would have been repeating someone else. I kid you not.

---

And suddenly satirists are out of a job
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I'm having flashbacks to my horrible RCIA classes.
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Wally, have you considered a spiritual formation class? Or perhaps a Christian Holiday Camp? (Fun for the whole family I hear.)

I bet either one could fix those issues right up. You just need a support group to spill your guts to.

Baptism is just the beginning of the process you know.

---

Uncle Tommy's Holiday Camp? Or going to Colditz with Sarky?

---

quote:

---

We have a disproportionate percentage of middle-aged housewives who "do" EFM and suddenly discover a Call to the perpetual diaconate.
And there is nothing scarier than a post-menopausal female with a Christian license to Meddle and Bother.People. Watching one of those women reading the Gospel with that determined glazed-look in her eyes is reminiscent of the original Curse of the Body Snatchers the way those folks looked right after they came out of their Pods.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sasha:
The only thing scarier I can think of is watching an impotent middle-aged man in polyester pants and a comb-over reading the Gospel

---

Of course the first thought that pops into one's head is: how would you know that?
 

---

Posted by Sasha (# 2832) on :
 
Exactly the same way tomb would know whether or not the woman was post-menopausal.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I dunno. Judging from Viagra commercials, post-menopausal is easier to guess than impotent.
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
Well, "impotent" is a mite more flexible term than "post-menopausal". It could mean powerless.

Like those fat, old guys who tried to block the ordination of women.
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Having read the first 3 pgs of the thread, assorted thoughts:

--{{Sine}}

--RUN!

--Get thee straight to a bookstore or library, and obtain "Travelling Mercies" by Anne LaMott. She has an unconventional, gritty, down-in-the trenches relationship with Jesus. She mentions doing something that "would make Jesus drink gin straight out of a cat dish". She thinks, she questions, she rails, she laughs. IMHO, you'll love it, and you'll get plenty of pithy ideas to bring up in group.

--Other books you might find useful: "Pilgrim At Tinker Creek" and "Holy The Firm" by Annie Dillard; "The Practice of the Presence of God" by Br. Lawrence; "Franny and Zooey" by JD Salinger; and "The Screwtape Letters" by CS Lewis. They all have some views of God and Christianity that are a bit out of step with your group, and might shake folks up a bit.

--Re chocolate: It is a sacrament, and worth discussing—and eating—during your group.

--Re Tomb’s suggested lines:


--Why is a pastor running this group? Will probably skew people’s answers something fierce!

Best of luck to you!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I concur that you should get "Travelling Mercies" and read passages aloud to your group.Spin their little heads around.
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I concur that you should get "Travelling Mercies" and read passages aloud to your group.Spin their little heads around.

---

...and post pictures!
 

---

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
I finally had my own last night!!!! I got to go to a reception dinner, drink Merlot and pretend to be an adult. I think I fooled them.
 

---

Posted by Lady R of Ashwood (# 4788) on :
 
Hey ho Sine, I just stepped onboard 'specially to see how your spiritual development is going. Glad to see you moving closer and closer to an emotional and life-transforming moment of self-revelation. Have you considered mentioning any recent miraculous healings you have experienced? I was reading some in a C12 saint's life earlier, which I am sure you could borrow...
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Indeed. Personal accounts of Signs and Wonders™ are always good small group conversation starters. It's even better if you can imply that your own spirituality played some causal role in the event.
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
Yeah. This miracle stuff is heady. The next thing you know people will be crowding around a bakery window clammering to see your image in a strangely evocative croissant.
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 
OK. It's Tuesday. Isn't time for the next installment of Sine Joins a Coven? Inquiring minds want to know, particularly if it involves gathering in a circle without any clothes.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
OK. It's Tuesday. Isn't time for the next installment of Sine Joins a Coven?

---

We did indeed form our coven. Details to follow later on this evening.
 

---

Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

An absolutely essential element of Christian community that is seldom discussed is a willingness to offer to others one’s true self rather than one’s contrived self.

---

quote:

---

What kind of support for practices, decisions, or changes would you welcome from this group? What kind of support would you resist? What kind of support would you be willing to offer others in the group?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

We discussed jumping ship with impunity for a while. It was decided that although we couldn’t promise to be each other best friends, like Softball Girl wanted, we did need a certain level of commitment. Our lowest common denominator was that we would all agree to show up unless there was a really pressing reason not to. If we couldn’t, we’d notify the rector in advance. We also agreed we needed to commit to having read the lesson and prepared the exercises.

---

Every year, first Tuesday in November, they run the Melbourne Cup and every year people who have no idea which is the business end of a horse ante up their hard-earned for the office sweep. For those not familiar with the custom, everyone pays some money and draws a horse's name from the hat. Winner takes all - I won A$110 on the chambers sweep.

So sign up here for the Spirituality Sweepstakes! How many of them will be left after seven months? Will it be our hero plus the rector? Or will there be others? Who will be getting their wings?As far as I can see, the field and their form based on the above is shaping up thus:
Sine Nomine A first time runner on this track, but a hardy weight for age runner. Will the colt from Nashville go the distance?
The Rector Age and experience will tell.
Fragile Fran Could blow up in the stalls.
Smiley Boy Other runners may block his run for the hell of it.
Softball Girl Enthusiastic early runner but may fade at the finish. Needs a lead from other runners - unlikely to get it.
Sine's Friend Dark horse with unsuspected previous form.
Ms Mystical Needs a miracle.

Ladieez and gents - pick your horses.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I haven't mentioned much about Stay at Home Mom yet. That's because she's even quieter than I am.

However when we were meditating, which translated into my staring fixedly at the floor, I noticed she had on rather peculiar Mary Jane sort of shoes. Funny the things you notice when you're "meditating".

Of course we know the rector will stay the course. She has to. It's her job. And I really do think my friend, despite his baleful comments, and Stay at Home Mom will make it. They have obviously negotiated with their spouses for two hours out a week. Not something to give up lightly when you've a couple of small children at home, which both of them have.

The thought did cross my mind when Softball Girl wanted a post-meeting coffee group "Coffee? At 8:45 at night? When my cocktail hour has already been delayed hours beyond it's normal starting time? Are you nuts?"

But as I mentioned previously she was brought up Southern Baptist and was a high school and college athlete. She positively glows with health. I'm guessing she doesn't drink. But then she hasn't been an Episcopalian long yet.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

Of course we know the rector will stay the course. She has to. It's her job. And I really do think my friend, despite his baleful comments, and Stay at Home Mom will make it.

---

That's what we need - tips from the stable.

Please add:
Stay at Home Mom The quiet ones are the stayers.

No bets on the rector.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I forgot to mention Fragile Fran's beautiful journal. You know we're all supposed to be keeping journals, right?

Fragile Fran's is one those beautiful leather bound ones with sheets of high-quality, creamy, unlined paper. The kind that is perfect for recording "menus served to" and "china pattern used" in. Or your deepest thoughts, as the case may be.

In any case, it puts my ratty little notebook to shame. But it did occur to me that I could get one of those pink vinyl Barbie™ diaries to bring to class. I think the lock on it would be particularly appropriate. Especially if I kept the key on a string around my neck and ostentatiously fished it out when it was time to share.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
beautiful leather bound ones with sheets of high-quality, creamy, unlined paper.

---

quote:

---

God says that He will mend a broken heart if we give him ALL the pieces. And in our daily life, we must remember that the caves of sorrow have mines of diamonds.

---

I'm sure those words will help her

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
BTW, Sarky, we did the sentence prayer thingie again at the end Monday night. I swear to God I opened my mouth twice to say your prayer, but I was just so afraid I wouldn't be able to get through it without giggling that I couldn't do it.

And for next week we have to share our favorite Bible verse or story, and what it means to us. That has all sorts of potential. I'm thinking something rather icky from the OT.
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
I have just the thing for you to make them all think you're stark staring mad, Sine. You see, one of the IT managers that I occasionally go drinking with went on eBay and found himself -- I swear to God -- a real, live (well, dead) jawbone of an ass. I could probably get it to you by Monday, and between that and one of them Cher wigs you've got in your closet you can reenact the story of Samson.
 

---

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And for next week we have to share our favorite Bible verse or story, and what it means to us.

---

You could go for short but sweet - Ezra 2:29?


 

---

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
I have just the thing for you to make them all think you're stark staring mad, Sine. You see, one of the IT managers that I occasionally go drinking with went on eBay and found himself -- I swear to God -- a real, live (well, dead) jawbone of an ass. I could probably get it to you by Monday, and between that and one of them Cher wigs you've got in your closet you can reenact the story of Samson.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And for next week we have to share our favorite Bible verse or story, and what it means to us. That has all sorts of potential. I'm thinking something rather icky from the OT.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by babybear:
[wipes a tear from her eye]

Gosh guys. This is all so touching, the way that you are all rallying round to help Sign in his spiritual growth.

[wipe]

bb

---

Who says the ship isn't a community. Of course it could also be a case of "with friends like these, who needs enemies."

Actually, the other night my friend from the group was over to dinner with the wife and the rug rats. After a couple of cocktails, I showed him this thread. After reading for a bit, he said "These people seem very caring, and are giving pretty good advice, as a matter of fact."

I'll just throw this in here for the Hell of it...

Godson rug rat asked me for a piece of paper and a pen and disappeared back in the library for a while. He reappeared with a drawing entitled "Poppa Sine". To be certain everyone knew it was "Poppa Sine" I was drawn with a cigarette in one hand with clouds of smoke billowing up. Good thing he doesn't know how to draw a martini glass yet.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 
The story of David and Jonathon can't be topped!

If you were looking for something cruel and icky however, I recommend God's bet with Satan on whether being visited with boils etc would make Job curse God.
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And for next week we have to share our favorite Bible verse or story, and what it means to us. That has all sorts of potential. I'm thinking something rather icky from the OT.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
You could always use Ezekiel 23:20.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by golden key:
Use one of the OT verses about practical things...like how to dig a latrine. Had great fun with that at summer camp!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Obviously you have been sheltering him and therefore shirking your duties as a godparent. Tsk, tsk.

---

Well I did let him help me fill out the place cards, which I think is important in any child's spiritual development. And before we went to table he switched them around to improve his placement, which shows I am having an influence.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I am quite reassured, Sine; obviously the lad has an inborn talent for picking out the essentials. Keep up the good work.
 

---

Posted by Kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
I have a feeling Sine's gonna be the "Uncle Buck" of his friend's family; the one guy his little nephew can go to for the truth about Life, the Universe, and Everything.
 

---

Posted by Lady R of Ashwood (# 4788) on :
 
I have not been afloat much of late, and this is once again only a fleeting visit to check on Sine's spiritual progress.

I am quite fond of the verse telling Israel that they should not trip up blind people or shout names at the deaf (no reference to hand, sadly) - makes you wonder exactly what kind of folk had Moses rescued, and why?? Not quite sure how it would link into the spiritual leaps and bounds that you are doubtless making tho...

Given that your coven is all up and running and the wagers are on the horses - before I place my metaphorical bet, are you a Maid, a Mother or a Crone? (what, you mean it isnt that sort of coven... how disappointing...Lady Vicar could have been the chief High Inquisitor and everything... I had it all worked out...sigh...)
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Well, it never pays to be honest, that's for sure.

Apparently I was the only one whose favorite passage of scripture was the Valley of the Dry Bones from Ezekiel. Is that really so strange? I think it's neat. Reminds me of a scene I once saw in one of those cheesey Italian mythology epics.

We were also supposed to draw two trees in our journal. One tree was supposed to be our life as it is now. The second tree was supposed to be our life as it could be. Between the two trees we were supposed to write passages of scripture that for us had been streams of nourishment and growth.

I just couldn't do it. I had to admit to the group "Sorry. I don't do trees at my age." Besides, the Valley of the Dry Bones was not going to be helpful in this context.

The rector did manage to put a positive spin on it, however. She said that we were all at different levels of spiritual developement and that was one of the strengths of the group. I tried not to take it personally.

Ms Mystical did drop a bit of a bombshell, in my opinion. We were discussing if we thought God had a plan for our lives and she mentioned she was quite sure she was working in the field God meant for her to be in because a psychic had once immediately identified her career when she went for a reading. But in case we got the wrong idea and thought she was flaky or something, she immediately assured us it was a reputable psychic. That was certainly a relief.

We did the sentence prayer thing again. The rector said it was OK to pass if you weren't comfortable with it. It got around to me and there was this long silence before I finally said "I pass." I really wanted to say "two clubs", but didn't have the nerve. There's something kind of intimidating about group spiritual pressure.
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally dealt by Sine Nomine:
But in case we got the wrong idea and thought she was flaky or something, she immediately assured us it was a reputable psychic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
... a psychic has moved into the house right next door to our preacher's home, two doors up from the church building. There's neon signs in the windows, and we are having great fun with the minister about it.

His wife baked a cake and took it over. When the psychic came to the door, Beth said, "If you can tell me what kind of cake is in this box, you can have it."

---

 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well, it never pays to be honest, that's for sure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well, it never pays to be honest, that's for sure.

Apparently I was the only one whose favorite passage of scripture was the Valley of the Dry Bones from Ezekiel....

We were also supposed to draw two trees in our journal....

I just couldn't do it....

The rector...said that we were all at different levels of spiritual developement and that was one of the strengths of the group. I tried not to take it personally.

...

We did the sentence prayer thing again....I really wanted to say "two clubs", but didn't have the nerve. There's something kind of intimidating about group spiritual pressure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well, it never pays to be honest, that's for sure.

---

There's no way I would be able to resist pretending to suffer a spontaneous demon possession, complete with props. Palm some glow-in-the-dark yellow contact lenses and some blood packets, so that I clutch my face and red fluid spatters down my cheeks and when my hands snap away I've got this Sarkycow-like glare. Then I think about what it would be like to host The Circus and barf up the pea soup I ate just before the meeting specifically to splatter on everyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
What type of fear and loathing of one's self does it take to continue with this type of group?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
What type of fear and loathing of one's self does it take to continue with this type of group?

---

So, to answer you question, what I'm hoping at the very least the class will teach me is humility, in which I am sorely lacking.

---

quote:

---

To say 2002 was a bad year for me would be an understatement. My father almost died. My sister-in-law's husband went a bit crazy, and tried to commit suicide (something that still affects us). There were serious problems at work. Then, my partner agreed to house sit in Seattle in September. Like I wanted to take care of two elderly cats. At least the house was on the north end of Capitol Hill, giving me the opportunity to make it to a Meet and Greet [for the Border Riders]. I was ready.

[The Border Rider "Meet and Greet" in Seattle is always the Wednesday evening before the monthly run or meeting.]

The Saturday after the Meet and Greet I thought I was going to ride over to [the September run at] Winthrop and back in a day. After all, I simply had to be back in Seattle on Sunday (I thought). After riding [30 mi/50 km] up to Everett to take care of many things at home, I set out later than I wanted. Actually, it was so late I did not arrive in Winthrop until about 5:00 pm. I did not make it back home that night, and the world did not end.

[Because of deer migration, it is dangerous to drive an automobile at night in the Winthrop/Methow Valley area in mid-September. Riding a bike in the dark would have been suicide. They had not planned on me eating dinner that night with the group, but had enough to feed me. I was put-up with a spare sleeping bag someone just happened to have along. Temperatures dipped well below freezing that evening.]

I do not know how to express my gratitude in the way you all took me in and cared for me. While I know it was not true, it felt like the first time all year someone took care of me. Not only that, it was the kindness of strangers. When riding home on Sunday I thought my smile was going to break my face.

Officer Frank said in a newsletter article that he enjoyed the fraternal care expressed among the members of the Border Riders. I am going to take that one step further. The Border Riders care for everyone, member or not. I want to be with all of you because every time I am with the group I learn something new about my attitudes in caring for others while enjoying the fellowship of riding and campfire.

---

quote:

---

I don't know about covenent churches in general, but this place was like someone put the Baptist Church in a big pot with Lutheranism, boiled it down a bit, strained off anything resembling funk, and put what was left over in a punchbowl with 7-up and sherbet.

---

I don't know anything about covenent churches at all but you've now ruined me for considering them with any kind of sobriety.



I just wanted you to know that, Kel.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
well, the fact that this church was in Silicon Valley may have made a difference
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Sine, I have always had a great affection for the tale of Jael murdering Sisera by driving a tent peg through his temple while hiding him from Barak (Judges iv, 13 ff): "Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died" (21). I read it to class in 7th grade home room one time when it was my turn to lead devotions. That was the last time I ever got on that rota, and it was soon after that Mrs. Hessenthaler stopped having devotions altogether in her classroom. I pride myself in having done my part to insure the separation of Church and State.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
No report will be forthcoming this week.

The book is so upbeat and seems to assume if only you'd just talk more to your friend Jesus everything would be peachy-keen.

Just couldn't face it this evening somehow.
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Ya big wuss -- what happened to taking one for the team?
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Just sing with me, Sine:

"Now let us have a little talk with Jesus.
Let us tell Him all about our sorrow.
He will hear our faintest cry,
And He will answer by and by.

Now when you feel a little prayerful yearnin',
As your heart unto heaven is turnin',
(Big finish:)
You will find a little talk with Jesus makes it right.
It... makes.... it... riiiigghhtttt!"

Now, aren't you sorry you didn't go?
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Allright, allright, allright!

I was off five days last week and spent the whole time in bed eating bon-bons and reading cheap novels instead of doing my spiritual exercises and was totally unprepared for class tonight.

Are you happy now?
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Allright, allright, allright!

I was off five days last week and spent the whole time in bed eating bon-bons and reading cheap novels instead of doing my spiritual exercises and was totally unprepared for class tonight.

Are you happy now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
Just sing with me, Sine:

"Now let us have a little talk with Jesus.
Let us tell Him all about our sorrow.
He will hear our faintest cry,
And He will answer by and by.

Now when you feel a little prayerful yearnin',
As your heart unto heaven is turnin',
(Big finish:)
You will find a little talk with Jesus makes it right.
It... makes.... it... riiiigghhtttt!"

Now, aren't you sorry you didn't go?

---

Grits, dear, how do you get away with this sort of thing? People have been eviscerated in Hell for less.

I figger you're aiming to be excommunicated from your church so you can embrace your Inner Anglican. I'll be happy to play the organ at your confirmation.
 

---

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
Don't believe him Grits. tomb offered me a Canned Heat record, a roll of quarters and a ham if I got baptized and I haven't gotten a damned thing yet.
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
I never offered you a Canned Heat record. What are you smoking?
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Thank you for the offer, tomb, but you know I don't believe in organ music.

Wally, I would not only hold out for the roll of quarters, but I'd insist they be newly issued State commemorative quarters. (I'm missing a few.)

BTW, welcome home, tomb. You were missed. It looks like you had a wonderful trip. Offspring is adorable.

[Edited to add suck up to tomb.]

[ 02. December 2003, 01:30: Message edited by: Grits ]
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Yeah, I know you "don't believe" in organ music. That's why I offered. I figured if you took me up on it, then we would know that you had been truly converted.

"Adorable" is not a word I would employ ordinarily for the Offspring. He's really a very nasty child.

We did have an absolutely splendid time. And nobody tried to poison us.

BTW: The Musicians of St. Clare sang Compline every night we were in Assisi and Rome. Unaccompanied. It was mostly simple Gregorian tones to the psalms (pointed my yours truly)--except on St. Cecelia's day and the Solemnity of Christ the King when we sang hymns. You would have been right at home.

When we sang Evening Prayer with the Poor Clare sisters at the protomonastery in Assisi, they chanted the psalms accompanied by something that sounded like a Farfisa combo organ with tremulant set to Stun. So I can certainly understand your antipathy to accompanied music if that was all it was about.

As far as that goes, it does not strike me as odd that virtually every organ I have ever heard in Rome sucked the big one. Inasmuch as the Holy Martyrs who met their death in the Roman circuses did so accompanied by the equivalent of Roman pop culture tunes on water-powered organs, it is remarkable that they have instrumental music at all. The first big quarrel about accompanied music was because people found it difficult praising the Lord encouraged by the same instrument that played their brothers and sisters to their deaths because of their witness to Christ's incarnation, atonement, and resurrection.

The organ is prohibited by Roman canon law during Lent, but that is a programming decision to make its return at Easter all the more powerful. My experience is that they might as well not bother.

All that being said, as I wrote in a PM to Amos this evening, I remain firmly convinced that an organist can convert just about anybody to Faith--as long as they can play long enough and the victim--er, convert--doesn't drop dead of a cerebral hemorrhage out of sheer obstinacy first.

I'm sorry. I got carried away on a thread about getting Sine saved. Carry on.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Sheesh, tomb, are you trying to kill this thread?

(Don't answer).

More important, it sounds like the organs of Europe have convinced you that church music should be a capella. Are you still jet-lagged or I am up too late at night?
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
You can't fool me -- no one with a smile like that can be very nasty.

I do envy your trip. Visiting Europe is on my "List of Things To Do Before I Die". Uh... you did see more than organs, didn't you?

BTW, you really need to come to Nashville and see Sine's big organ, tomb. It is absolutely huge -- the biggest I have ever seen!
 

---

Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
Yes. Don't be fooled. The Tomb's are nice.

Papio

P.S - Is Sine's organ really the bigest you have ever seen?
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Oh, yes. I've never even seen a picture of a bigger one!
 

---

Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
I thought you were a good girl, Grits
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
I am good. But sometimes I am a tease. Sorry.

Besides, I was just trying to get a rise out of Sine.

Oh, dear -- I've done it again.
 

---

Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
Bad Grits.

Although, I somehow doubt that you could get a rise out of him.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I'm not sure which is worse.

That the idiot dog nosed the door in the sideboard open, ate half a bag of M&Ms, and now has violent diarrhea at two in the morning.

Or that while I wait for her to finish her latest trip to the yard I'm reading this diarrhea.

The fact that you people would use one boy's spiritual journey as an excuse to make off-color remarks is sickening.

I thought this was supposed to be a...

Oh, screw it. I'm going back to bed.
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
Aww, Sign come back. We shall try to help you understand and really feel what it is like to have Jesus as your bestest friend.

Here is a little prayer for you to get started:
"May you have much joy and delight in your new friendship with your very Best Friend, Jesus!"

and a little poem (well just the two verses the rest can be found at Jesus, my best friend:
Whenever I'm in trouble
Or when I am afraid
He helps me work my problems out
And the hurt just seems to fade.

Whenever I am feeling low,
He helps me not to feel so bad,
He makes my life worth living,
Jesus really makes me glad!


bb
 

---

Posted by kentishmaid (# 4767) on :
 
Why, why, why am I hearing that sung to the tune of 'Whenever I feel afraid, I hold my head erect?'. Honestly, I swear 'I'm sorry I haven't a clue' is reponsible for all my neuroses.
 

---

Posted by Kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
That the idiot dog nosed the door in the sideboard open, ate half a bag of M&Ms

---

quote:

---

...except on St. Cecelia's day ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Thank-you so very much, babybear.

---

quote:

---

Damn, there's that viscious, unsaved Sine sneaking back again. This really is a lifelong process, isn't it? I had so hoped I was saved for good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Allright, allright, allright!

I was off five days last week and spent the whole time in bed eating bon-bons and reading cheap novels instead of doing my spiritual exercises and was totally unprepared for class tonight.

Are you happy now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:

quote:

---

...except on St. Cecelia's day ...

---

Far be it from me to even attempt to assail the veritable doors of the knowledge of tomb™, but all spellings I've ever seen of the saint mentioned put her down as St Cecilia...

---

After his return to the US, tomb is probably undergoing reintroduction to the True English Language™. It takes a while to readjust to correct spellings after seeing such misspellings such as centre, neighbour, colour, and emphasise.

I had to undergo restorative language therapy after spending two weeks in Canada last summer. I still have trouble understanding speed limit signs, which use the ungodly metric system in the Great White North. Why can't Canadians get it right and say 65 mi/hour rather than 100 km/hour?

Returning from England has to be worse!

My job here is done. I think I'll go to work.
 

---

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Sorry about the misspellings. I was experimenting with Blue Gin last night.

Yes, I am still jet-lagged. Waking up at all hours of the night wanting espresso.

And I'm having dreams about Keeping Left and Looking Right while driving.

[ 04. December 2003, 16:15: Message edited by: tomb ]
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:
And I'm having dreams about Keeping Left and Looking Right while driving.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
BTW, KenWritez, people who weigh 145 pounds keep M&Ms in the sideboard, for use in refilling the cut glass biscuit jar full of M&Ms that sits atop the sideboard.

Damn, there's that viscious, unsaved Sine sneaking back again. This really is a lifelong process, isn't it? I had so hoped I was saved for good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by babybear:
I wanna hear about how he is getting on with his new buddy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:
And I'm having dreams about Keeping Left and Looking Right while driving.

---

How about minding the gap?

This one always sounds like an advertisement for a clothing store to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ebeth:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim: tut, tut, Sine. St Ignatius of Loyola composed his spiritual exercises when laid up in bed with a leg wound.


It all becomes clearer to me now. Why did this broken leg happen? Clearly, it's my calling....

You can all buy the book.

---

[personal aside]
ebeth, did you break your leg? I do hope not...
[/personal aside]
 

---

Posted by ebeth (# 4474) on :
 
Unfortunately I did.
But now I've found this thread and my calling
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Sorry about the leg.

Will the book be done in time for next year's Christmas shopping?


 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
If I weren't drooling for next week's installment of "mock the spiritual retards", I'd be closing this thread due to unworthy prattling.

-RooK
Hellhost
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
In an effort to get the thread back on track ... do we need to think of excuses for Sine to give when his rector and various members of his group want to know why he wasn't there Monday evening?

I'm thinking he could mumble something about the recurrence of an unsightly skin condition.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Uhm...er...hangs head in shame...I...uh...implied...that I had to go see my mother...due to her (actual) rather serious current medical condition.

They prayed for us.

I feel so very ashamed.
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
No, that won't do.

He spent the evening watching Benny Hinn on cable TV and, inspired, started to writhe on the floor as a way of Getting In Touch With God.

It didn't work, alas. He got rug burn from the Aubusson and notched up a couple of chippendale chairs, but at least he got his damn aerobic exercise out of the way for another week.
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
That post of mine was intended as a response to RuthW. Beware, Sine: sick relatives--even real ones, tend to wear thin after awhile with those intent on doing the Lord's work.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:
He got rug burn from the Aubusson ...

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Exactly. A recurring unsightly skin condition. (Sorry, Sine. But really, you had all this coming to you. You should have sought expert advice here before making your excuses!)
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I would like to warn newcomers to the ship never, ever, to make a light-hearted comment in passing. It will follow you around like a lost, starving puppy forever.

And the scar is almost gone, thank-you so very much for asking.

However, back to Things Spiritual...

I have decided that the Barbie™ diary would betray an unfortunate frivolity of mind that is to be avoided. Rooting around in the library I have found a very serious looking spiral notebook with green tinted ruled pages that will do very well indeed, I think. It's very thick and the spiral part is on the top, rather than the side, which somehow gives it an air of utter sincerity I find rather appealing.

I have learned over the past weeks that the time one picks for spiritual development is important. Trying to be spiritual in the lunch room at work while the guys are talking sports and the women are talking about that slut in accounting is not conducive to growth.

Nor do I seem to be able to have productive meditation on the Holy Scripture when I get home from work and am having cocktails. So much more fun to post in Hell during cocktail time, don'tcha know.

My new goal is to arise a half hour earlier in the morning and, while the house is quiet, try to hear God speaking to me. It will be my special time with my bestest friend.

One thing I've learned so far is that spiritual discipline requires, uh, discipline. (Never said I was quick on the up-take.)

Unfortunately, I've learned that late in the week and now have to cram six days worth of discipline into two days. But I swear I won't let the coven down again. Really. I promise.
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
My new goal is to arise a half hour earlier in the morning and, while the house is quiet, try to hear God speaking to me. It will be my special time with my bestest friend.

One thing I've learned so far is that spiritual discipline requires, uh, discipline. (Never said I was quick on the up-take.)

Unfortunately, I've learned that late in the week and now have to cram six days worth of discipline into two days. But I swear I won't let the coven down again. Really. I promise.

---

Rising a half-hour earlier? It sounds like you've been reading devotional literature, Sine. Have you been strangely warmed?

Let's see. Six Days. 0.5 hours. Sounds like you only need 3 hours to meet your weekly Spiritual Supplement needs per week. You can do that on a Saturday morning. With it this easy to be Spiritual™, you should still have time to post in Hell during cocktail time and create new rug burns (arf, arf).

Why didn't they tell me it was this easy?
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Insider note to Sine: You don't have to get up half an hour earlier, you just have to wake up earlier. God listens even if you're still snuggled in those comfy covers.)

(Hey, I'm not responsible for what He hears while you're snuggled in the covers! Though it's probably a lot more honest than what you'd come up with if you were sitting primly in a chair trying to think devotional thoughts.)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
jlg--
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Ah, but Jennifer, this week we're learning about lectio divina.

I have to:
Read
Reflect
Respond
Relax

As the textbook says:

quote:

---

Classical writers have compared this process to eating. In reading, you bite off a small chunk of text. Through meditation, you chew on it, extracting the nutrients and juices. In prayer, you swallow, incorporating the results of your meditation and allowing them to nourish your life. And in contemplation, you savor the good taste left in your mouth, celebrate the gift of God's word to you, and embrace the new life you have received.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
As the textbook says:

quote:

---

Classical writers have compared this process to eating. In reading, you bite off a small chunk of text. Through meditation, you chew on it, extracting the nutrients and juices. In prayer, you swallow, incorporating the results of your meditation and allowing them to nourish your life. And in contemplation, you savor the good taste left in your mouth, celebrate the gift of God's word to you, and embrace the new life you have received.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I would like to warn newcomers to the ship never, ever, to make a light-hearted comment in passing. It will follow you around like a lost, starving puppy forever.

---

Case in point: Wood's comment about Britney was made nearly four years ago.
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 
OK. It's Tuesday. Morning. I need my weekly installment of Sine Joins a Coven.

Sine, you know you are here to make us happy, don't you?
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
I'm chewing on last night's class (see above) and should have it digested by this evening.

p.s.: Were not we all put here to make each other happy? True joy comes from the giving of ourselves to others. So I've been told.
 

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Posted by Peronel (# 569) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:


True joy comes from the giving of ourselves to others. So I've been told.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
When I finished, the rector said "Sine, I appreciate your candor." I realized that she's been saying that to me for eight years now. I never hear her say it to anybody else. I'm starting to think it's code for something else.

---

quote:

---

I'm actually starting to enjoy being spiritual.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I enjoyed flipping back and forth among the pages looking for that special deep thought to share.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I got two things out of our lesson this week.

This isn't supposed to be group therapy, yet the very first thing we do each week is tell how God is working in our lives, particularly in terms of the week's lessons.

Asking how God is working in your life is like waving a red flag in front of a bull in this group. Open invitation to wander all over the place, occasionally touching base with the lessons. Ms. Mystical is particularly bad about this, with Softball Girl being a close second. Also, I've decided Ms. Mystical has tinted contact lenses, which I find unnerving.

---

quote:

---

As I've gone through this week I've just really felt that God is just really been like by my side all the time, and I've just really been able to just like talk with Him about anything. Nothing is too big for Him to handle, and nothing is too small for Him to care about.
pause to look spiritual - best practise this in front of a mirror
Last Thursday I got so lost in my quiet time, just sitting with God and really sharing quality time together, when He laid on my heart the fact I was late. But He was amazing - the bus was late, arriving at the bust stop as I did, and then the journey into work was the fastest it's ever been. I was able to cross every road as I got there, and the lift up to my office was waiting for me when I arrived. As I sat down at my desk, dead on time, I thanked the Lord, and I just really felt Him saying to me: "Sine, you are my child and I just love you. Nothing in your life is too small for me to care about, and I wanted to honour you for your faithful worship of me."

Isn't God amazing?
pause for that spiritual look again, mixed with a serene smile.

---

See, simple really Just practise that spiritual look

quote:

---

Just don't worry about a damn thing because God is going to take care of you.

Naturally when I tried to meditate on these passages I thought about every massacre of Christians I've ever read about. Every natural disaster, every famine, every invasion of the Mongols, etc. Wasn't very uplifting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
And why don't you share in the same way as them? After all, what happens to you in the week is important, and it would be mightily upifting for them to hear about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
The problem is I'm the only one in the group who seems to be angry a lot.

---

Anger isn't Godly. You're meant to be a Shiny Happy Christian.

Haven't you learnt this already?

How am I meant to work with such poor material?

Clearly Softball Girl has the dibs on breathy wonder, so perhaps you should try for deep and sincere joy. That can be faked fairly easily.

Sarkycow, still trying to help Sine, despite his destructive efforts.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
perhaps you should try for deep and sincere joy. That can be faked fairly easily.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
You're meant to be a Shiny Happy Christian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
It seems obvious me to that what we need to develop some systematic way to help guide Sine spiritually. I speak specifically about the spiritual points he referred to.

I suggest that we compile an exhaustive sample list of pertinent items, and assign them spiritual points for Sine to contemplate. To assist him in recognizing these spiritual points in action during his future sessions, I think we should arrange it in a BINGO format.

Can't you just imagine it? There's Sine, looking all interested in everything people are saying, meanwhile covertly noting his SoF Spiritual Bingo card. He could report back if he got a BINGO, or a blackout, or whatever other bingo terms apply. That way, while Sine is learning to recognize spiritual points, we get an objective measure of how spiritual his sessions are.

Actually, if it works out, perhaps we could propose it as a form of Mystery Worship review...

---

Wow! And just think of the Circus Game possibilities as well!
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
perhaps you should try for deep and sincere joy. That can be faked fairly easily.

---

I understand it's easier for women to fake it.

---

quote:

---

said the abominator: I hate this thread

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Did you know it takes more muscles to frown than it does to smile?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
If you pray for me I will super-glue the cheeks of your arse together while you sleep.

---

Pyx, I pray for you but I don't sleep, so bring it on!
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
I just need to save up for a 5 gallon tube of glue and I will be over.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
Did no one catch the reference to Sister Mary Oliphant from the first Cheech and Chong album Big Bambu?

Or have I mind melded with Martin PC Not, as Pyx_e suspects?
 

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Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on :
 
Actually, I did catch the reference (the routine also mentions Sister Rosetta Stone).

Cheech and Chong on a spiritual formation thread--what a tangent...

[typo]

[ 11. December 2003, 18:43: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
Makes for an amusing image of next week's coven.

[knock knock]

Uuuuuuuh... Who is it?

Sine.

Uuuuuuuh... Sine's not here!
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 
I think I may have Sine's first spiritual Bingo card here. It came to me...let's not go into that.

Triple points

bestest buddy
moral high ground
productive meditation
try to hear God speaking to me

Double points

the gift of God's word
utter sincerity
spiritual journal

Single points

journeying with us
silent prayer

Null points

I just want to hold up [name] to Jesus
Thank you for your candour

[thought of one more]

[ 11. December 2003, 23:41: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
 

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Posted by Cranmer's baggage (# 4937) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
It is impossible to read from the last post backwards and make any sense.

---

Pyx_e, do you read threads backwards to check for secret messages from The Evil One?
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Sarkie leaves secret messages? I thought she just said them out loud!

P
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Recently at a weekday mass the readings were from the Isaiah bits that start off the Messiah ("every valley shall be exalted and the mountains made low" etc) combined with a reinforcing NT and Gospel reading. Our priest, in his mini-homily, emphasized how we should use Advent to look forward to being brought up from our poverty and lowliness. But I couldn't help thinking that our little band of warmly dressed, well-fed people with time to be at daily mass in our pleasant, heated, church building were more likely to be part of the group that will be "made low".

Perhaps, Sine, you could find an opening to discuss whether people who have enough time and wealth to own or even know about such things as sterling ice-cream forks should perhaps focus on aspects of the Gospel other than "Jesus loves me and everything's gonna be alright!".

Does your course have a section on examination of conscience?
 

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Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Jlg, Sine's had enough of being a cynical, obnoxious lil bastard; he wants to be a sunbeam for Jesus, that's why he's joined the coven

Pyx_e, you're on my christmas card list now

Sarkycow
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Jen, that's the problem. So far it's all been about how God can make me feel better about myself. Which is bullshit, in my opinion. One can be a miserable wreck and still be out in the world, helping the people Jesus said to help.

And yes, I know, I should sell the ice cream forks and give the money to the poor. I'm just not there yet.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Thank-you, Ms Cow, for your vote of confidence.

I'll pray for you too. Extemporaneously.

"Ah just wanna lift up sistah Vicki..."
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Tell it, brother! Lift up our Sister Cow! A---men!
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Lord, yeah, Lord we just really wanna lift up our sister Cow that the blessings of thy holy face, Lord, of thy just really holy face will shine on her forever.



Amen.
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Damn, your good at that, Nunc.
 

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Posted by Cusanus (# 692) on :
 
It comes from living in the Diocese of Gomorrah-on-the-Harbour. It's catching.
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

 

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Posted by pants (# 4487) on :
 
this is page 10
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
pants, I feel like you're stalking me, and it's not a pleasant feeling.

If I have offended you in some way, I apologize.

I'm sure the hosts will close this thread when they are bored reading it. It makes no nevermind to me.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It makes no nevermind to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
Hey, the correct phrase is, "It don't make no nevermind."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cusanus:
It comes from living in the Diocese of Gomorrah-on-the-Harbour. It's catching.

---

Hey, I thought *I* lived there ... oh wait ... that's Sodom-by-the-Bay.

<emily litella on>
Nevermind.
<emily litella off>

Charlotte (and yes I agree with the assessment)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


Amazing Grace, I could totally hear you say that....
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
Closed per request of thread starter.

-RooK
Hellhost
 

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