Thread: Eccles: The Catholic Apostolic Church Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000501

Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Arising from comments re the Church of Christ the King, Gordon Square, on the 'Cathedral of Anglo-Catholicism in England' thread, I am prompted to ask if any shipmates (or people known to them formerly) have any memories of attending Catholic Apostolic services?

It has to be borne in mind that the last priest of the C-A Church in this country died as long ago as 1971, so ending celebrations of the Eucharist. However, in 1987 the church at Maid Vale was still being used on Sundays for a service of prayer based, I believe, on the Litany.

This is going to be a very obscure thread.....I really need to get out more!

Ian J.

[ 12. June 2005, 19:15: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 
Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
I never had the chance to, unfortunately. Having done a quick search on them, it seems all very interesting. This 'New Apostolic Church' - are they quite similar?
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
The Catholic Apostolic Church still exists and is registered as a charity. I think their last operational church was in Maida Vale and this closed down in the 1980s. They did not believe in creating new priests so eventually died out.

The remaining trust, I recall being told, still owns the freeholds of their various former churches which it lets to various Christian denominations. The lovely Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Camberwell South London is one of theirs and I suspect they still have the freehold of Christ the King. They had a particularly beautiful church in Edinburgh and in their day must have appealed to a particularly prosperous crowd.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Like a dinosaur’s bones, their buildings are all that remain. The last Apostle, F.V. Woodhouse, died as long ago as 1901, but the churches endure. Yes, Aumbry, the Edinburgh church is here (fine baldachino) and now its interesting murals are being restored. No doubt the iconography reflects its unusual theology – heavily OT-based. Many other buildings seem to exist, but aside from Edinburgh and Gordon Square, the finest seems to be the chapel at Albury Park (1840), by William McIntosh Brookes, who also did the village church. Drummond’s house was contemporaneously enlarged by AWN Pugin – what he thought of his patron’s Irvingite cronies is not recorded.

Their wealth seems to have been derived – aside from Drummond – from a strict application of tithing among its members (O sic omnes!). But they are surely one of the more attractive splinter sects of the last century, with their wacko OT-based (and OTT) ceremonial, and emphasis on the parousia, at least when they got over the ‘prophesying in tongues’ chaos (I assume that had been ironed out of the liturgy that you have, BF?). It also helps that they are all firmly dead.

For the aspiring Drummonds with £68 spare among us, there is a recent (large) OUP monograph by Flegg “Gathered under Apostles”. No trace of it in the second hand departments, alas. And what does Anson in “Bishops at Large” say of them?
Yes – a more attractive group than the likes of “Bishop” A.H. Mathew, or Archbishop Nicholson in the “Ancient Catholic Cathedral” on Lower Sloane Street, with Sir Alfred and Lady Munnings admiring his blessing of the animals. Though, if they’d waited a few decades, they can get that now at our lovely Cathedral on a Hill here in Noo Yawk.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Even more interesting than the Apostolic catholics were the Agapemonites whose extraordinary church still stands in Clapton (London) and is now called the Church of the Good Shepherd. I've always wondered what goes on there. These days it seems to be a sort of spiritualist church. I believe the Agapemonites had a rather racy history.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Pax Britannica - thanks for your comments and, yes, there does not appear to be any specific mention of 'tongues' in the mature C-A liturgy I have.

I gather that the church was indeed well-heeled, partly due to their emphasis on tithing, and it does appear to have been a somewhat upper middle-class affair.

Part of their 'attractiveness' appears to me to be their belief that they were not in any way to be regarded as being in opposition to existing churches.

Back-to-Front - the 'New Apostolic Church' is indeed an offshoot of the Catholic Apostolic Church. Apparently, the deaths of some of the twelve 'Apostles' by 1855 led to a division in the C-A Church, many members in Hamburg, Germany, taking the view that replacement Apostles should be elected. This was not shared by the others, so by 1863 separation had taken place and the New Apostolic Church formed. I confess I have no idea if they still use C-A liturgical forms, however.

I said this was an obscure subject....

Ian J.
 
Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :
 
Slightly more obscure tangent...

two Anglican liturgical scholars did their PhD's on the Catholic Apostolics:
Kenneth Stephenson on their eucharist and Paul Roberts on their initiation rites.

Neither PhD was ever published...
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
I believe the Agapemonites had a rather racy history.

Ah! We're on to the upstanding (sic) Smyth-Pigott and his concubines already...

quote:
whose extraordinary church still stands in Clapton (London) and is now called the Church of the Good Shepherd. I've always wondered what goes on there. These days it seems to be a sort of spiritualist church.
Are we back in Nicholson-land? This is the "Ancient Catholic" Cathedral Church of the GS, with smart notice board, armorial bearings, monthly animal blessings, and weekly "address and clairvoyance meeting". Are we in Lower Sloane Street transferred? A grand building, and surely either BF or Aumbry, we can get you to Mystery Worship it for us? Ouija boards at the ready, chaps.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hmm.....thanks, PB - this does sound as though it's worth MWing! I shall have to see what can be done - though I don't think I could stand going to the Animal Blessing Service (dogs....ugh!!! [Projectile] ).

Ian J.

(Apologies to all you dog-loving folks....)
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
The Good Shepherd, which is more on Stamford Hill than Claptonm IIRC, is certainly a weird building from the outside. When I first came across it I was quite taken aback. Bulls and goats and carved animals.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
There are still some cathaps alive - living around Gordon Square because they believe that, at the Second Coming, Christ will descend on to the Bishop's throne in Christ the King and then the whole building, with those inside it, will be assumed into heaven.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
One local guide mentions eagles and bulls round the spire, but fails (of course) to recognise them as symbols of the four evangelists.
So maybe Bro Ken or one of you London shipmates might just pop in and see it and tell us all? The Agapemonites might well have left some loony internal fixtures and architectural details: the Ancient Caths were perhaps more regular CofE in their decor (??) - but they've been there half a century so it should be 'authentick'.

And they must be the successors of Archbishop H.P. Nicholson - Lower Sloane Street (also "Cathedral of the Good Shepherd") was a former Baptist Chapel that was bombed, and they sold in 1956. Clapton/Stamford Hill was bought in 1956. Coincidence? Far grander, though not in PeterJones-land. And looks like the funky liturgy is the same. We may have discovered a liturgical coelacanth here.
 
Posted by The Undiscovered Country (# 4811) on :
 
In 'Restoring The Kingdom' Andrew Walker details the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church in one of the chapters and cites it as being one of the key theological influences on the British House Church/New Church movement (albeit a mainly unconscious influence)
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I've just had a look in Pevsner to see what it has to say about the Cathedral of the Good Shepherd. Upper Clapton it is - do people say Stamford Hill to sound posh? Apparently it was built as the "Arc of the Covenant" for the Agapemonite Sect followers of Henry James Prince. Inside it is said to be heavy with symbolism and has a stunning set of stained glass windows designed by Walter Crane one of which is described as "Righteousness flanked by Sin and Shame and Disease and Death, elongated writhing figures tortured by flames and snakes"

I'd love to go and mystery worship it -but would be too scared. The cat on the notice board is enough to give anyone the willys.

Aumbry
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Here's apotted history of the Agapemone

http://www.dgbdgb.btinternet.co.uk/clapton/agapemon.htm

Aumbry
 
Posted by Amphibalus (# 5351) on :
 
When I was at theological college in London during the late 60s, I have a distinct recollection that one of my fellow ordinands was from a Catholic Apostolic family that had been steered towards Anglicanism when their local congregation started dwindling. I believe he has now been elevated to the purple.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Thank you, Aumbry -- I believe the new Pevsner contains this much more detailed information. I have a dispatched a Special Agent to investigate the Clapton Ark - and the Crane windows. His cover will be to inquire (of the current Ancient Caths) whether they do pussy or doggie weddings, and if so whether same-sex unions are also permitted. But maybe one of you London shipmates might do an advance recce?

Alas, the Adullam Chapel, in Brighton (Windsor Street), is I suspect long gone. Parts of the Spaxton complex are apparently on the market at the moment.

[ 27. June 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: Pax Britannica ]
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
There was a Catholic Apostolic Church in Bristol - but it has now been taken over by the orthodox community (either russian or polish orthodox!)

-103
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
http://www.cacina.org/

is this the Catholic Apostolic Church - looks pretty much in tact still, even though it only has a few parishes.

-103
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks for the link, 103, but this is a completely different body.

CACINA appears to be of fairly recent origin (1945) and emanates from Brazil, whereas the Catholic Apostolic Church we are referring to on this thread was an British sect originating from the preaching of a Scottish Presbyterian minister called Henry Irving in London in the 1830s.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The Catholic Apostolic Church still exists and is registered as a charity. I think their last operational church was in Maida Vale and this closed down in the 1980s...

Just picked up on this. This is one of Pearson's best works, stone vaulted, and his last town church. Strange projecting baptistery at the west end between the entrance porches, and ingenious south chapel with its own ambulatory. Stump of uncompleted tower. Maida Avenue. Who uses it now? A splendid companion to his even more superb S. Augustine's nearby. Must be Grade 2*.
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
Nigel Tranter the late Scottish historical novelist was one - his family used to go to the Mansefield Place Catholic Apostolic church (the one with the Phoebe Traquair murals) in Edinburgh.

What I'd like to know is whether they had any distinctive or interesting music or hymns?

cheers,
Louise
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Well I have just popped over to Maida Avenue to have a look. Maida Avenue must be one of London's most attractive streets and quite a contrast to the Edgeware Road nearby which must be one of the ugliest.It has a boat filled canal running through the middle and is lined with stucco-fronted late regency houses. The church is very big, high-victorian red brick (highest quality) with bath-stone banding, but surprisingly low key as the trees rather cut off the views of it.It is a magnificent church and as Pax commented is very similar in style to St Augustine's Kilburn and not much smaller I would guess. There is a stump where presumably it was intended to build a spire like the one at St Augustines. I took a photo but have no idea how, if possible, to include it with this.

I would think this is grade I listed and not II*.

But then things started to get mysterious. The church is clearly no longer used for services and yet appears to be in superlative condition to the extent that there are smart little hedges at the front of it and the brickwork and roof are very well maintained. I could not see any evidence that it had changed use - it looks very much like a church and not a recording studio or such like. And this would tie in with the fact that the Apostolic Catholics seem to insist that their churches are used for christian purposes and not converted into carpet warehouses (How unlike the CofE). But the gates are padlocked and there is no sign outside.

I wonder whether this is still retained as an Apostolic Catholic Church but simply does not hold services which would make sense as I believe the services were held here until the 1980's when the congregation more or less literally died out although the church continues.

If its interior is as fine as the exterior this must be an overlooked gem.

I will see what I can find out.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Bravo Aumbry!!! BF says he's been inside - was that while it was still in CathAp use? Photos of the interior and plan are in the Pearson Quiney/Yale book.

Yes, Louise, we need an CathAp hymnal! And maybe a video of a High Mass? Well, maybe not. But - BF - what's the liturgy that you have look like? Significant differences from BCP?

Here's the Bristol church mentioned by 103rd.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Catholic Apostolic church services appear to have been rather grandiose affairs in their heyday: there were large numbers of priests and deacons, incense was used and there was exposition of the blessed sacrament. Music appears to have been of a very high standard but I have not found any details of what was performed.

I suspect that they were a product of Victorian taste whereby ornamentation and ceremony were adored and puritanical protestantism had little appeal. There was an added mystical element that was in tune with an age of spiritualism and theosophy. These were people who probably wanted catholic forms of worship but did not want the social stigma of being Roman Catholics. They were the ones who couldn't come out of the closet and get into the confessional box. This would also account for the high proportion of well healed middle class members - the one group that was least likely to convert to Rome. It is not clear to me whether they pre-date the Oxford Movement in this regard.

They appear to have had 9 congregations in London so presumably there were 9 churches. I only know of Gordon Square, Little Venice and Camberwell. Does anyone know of any others?

By the way the church in Camberwell - now St Marys Greek Orthodox Cathedral - is turning out for the London Open House Weekend in September and is well worth a visit.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
I would think that, at least in the early days, the principal feature of the faith would have been the expected imminent parousia, so it would have required more than just a taste for 'bells and smells' to get the punters in - the doctrine and teaching would have been markedly different from the CofE or RC churches, surely? As to music and liturgy, there seems nothing listed in the British Library, other than some books for another CathAp church - Glastonbury Rite - which must be the different group related to the CACINA lot identified by BF. It would be nice to know whether Gordon Square resounded to Mozart or Stanford, and whether they TARPed or TAWPed. They obviously wanted good organs, and so that presumes hymns. Surely not A&M though?
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Good to hear that the Maida Vale Church is still in good condition. I visited it in Autumn 1987, at which time it was still being used on Sundays at 10.30am for a simple service of prayer based on the Litany (the C of E version plus a few alterations). It was cared for by a resident Doorkeeper (his official title, hence the capital letter) who was responsible, on his own initiative, for considerable restoration work on the adjacent vestries. He was certainly not an old man, and may well still be in residence.....there is a tiny cottage attached to the church, IIRC.

The Liturgy in its mature version was quite advanced and complex. Services were provided for Morning Prayer, Forenoon Service, Afternoon Service, Evening Prayer, the Eucharist, Administration of Communion (i.e. previously consecrated at the morning Eucharist) on the Afternoon of the Lord's Day, Removing the Holy Sacrament and many others...... Shortened forms of service are also provided, the full length versions usually being led by one of the college of Apostles, or an Angel (Bishop) at the very least.

I am not knowledgeable enough to be able to expound much on the origins of the Catholic Apostolic liturgy, but I am told it combines elements of Anglican, Roman, Orthodox and Free Church worship! It is very Cranmerian in style, but with the rather longer prayers etc. that one might associate with Orthodox worship.

I don't have much information on the music used, but apparently psalms were sung to plainchant and such pieces as the Te Deum and other Canticles were sung to Anglican chant. Hymns were used, many of which were composed for the C-A Church, but I have never seen a copy of the hymnbook.

The London Churches were, I believe, as follows:

Gordon Square
Maida Vale
Mare Street, Hackney (became Greek Orthodox many years ago)
New Road, Camberwell (now Greek Orthodox)
Elyston Street, Chelsea (bombed in WW2)
Abbey Orchard Street, Westminster (became Roman Catholic - I remember it from about 30 years ago, but I believe it has been demolished)
Duncan Street, Islington (present status not known!)

Some of these had 'dependent' congregations, some with their own buildings.

I suspect the Catholic Apostolic Church is still in existence as a legally-constituted organisation, but it seems unlikely that very many people (if at all) still follow its teachings and use its Liturgy.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Well done, BF! You and Bro Aumbry should be commissioned to write a pocket guide to the CathAps. I see the Gordon Square archives went to the Bodleian (including lots of liturgical books, but no hymnals listed as such). May include music lists? There are also document collections at Edinburgh Univ from the chapels in the Northern Kingdom.
I bet they sang "Lo he comes with clouds descending" to which they may have added a couple of verses apposite to their creed.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
STDP. Dr Julian has the answer: Hymns for the Use of the Churches, Edward William Eddis ed. 1864, 1871 &c. "Compiled for the use of their congregations... very few found in other collections; exceptions are: O brightness of the Immortal Father's face (from the Greek), In us the hope of glory ("the Second Advent desired", Thou standest at the altar ("H. Communion")."
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Pax Britannica - now I come to think of it, I have heard of Mr. Eddis and his work. In a way, it is a shame that the Catholic Apostolic Church's Liturgy has been lost to us, as I imagine one of their services would have been well worth attending.....

As a codicil to my post above, I should acknowledge the fact that much of my information regarding the C-As comes from a privately-published monograph called 'Albury and the Catholic Apostolic Church' by George L. Standring in 1967. Mr. Standring wrote it as part of his studies to become an Anglican Lay Reader - he was living at that time in an apartment in Albury Park, the mansion in Surrey formerly owned by Henry Drummond, first Apostle of the C-As.

I should also point out that my visit to the Maida Vale church was something of a privilege, granted to me by the C-A authorities on the understanding that I would not cause any article or photographs to be published as a result. They were then (and presumably still are) a rather retiring and secretive body, seeking no publicity and certainly no converts! They had no problem in selling me Mr. Standring's booklet, however, IIRC.

Mr. Standring also included a fairly good bibliography - P. E. Shaw's treatise on the Church is the only one I've ever seen or read (and that was only because my local library managed to locate a copy).

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh, and by the way.....

The Maida Vale church is indeed as impressive within as without. My recollections are of a severe and austere building with much fine woodwork, and rather more pews and stalls in the chancel than one would expect in, for instance, a C of E church. This is because of the need to accommodate the many and various C-A orders of Angel, priests, deacons etc.

Those interested in 'tat' might like to know that eucharistic vestments were introduced as early as Christmas Day 1843 (way ahead of the C of E). Colours, however, were not used to indicate liturgical seasons etc., but rather to identify the rank of the minister - gold for an elder, blue for a prophet, scarlet for an evangelist, white for a pastor and purple for an Angel (but white if the Angel was celebrating the Eucharist). Standring mentions this use in connection only with the stole, so I'm not sure if the chasuble matched or not. Yes, obscure, as I remarked earlier.....

How many and varied are the manifestations of faith.....!!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :
 
Anson's invaluble 'Fashions in Church Furnishings' has a good section about the Catholic Apostolics with one of his nice line drawings of the liturgy. They didn't use candles, only oil lamps.

Cosmo
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I see Henry 103 has pointed out that the Catholic Apostolics had a church in Bristol. In fact they had one right on his patch. There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?

I am going to indulge myself and buy an early twentieth century church survey for London and see how many catholic apostolics there were in 1900 - I will report.

One last thought - if the Little Venice church is merely mothballed I should guess they still have all the accoutrements, vestments and possibly hymnbooks there.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I can't recall being shown any vestments etc. during my visit to Maida Vale - I wish I'd asked!

It will be interesting, aumbry, to see what you come up with re statistics - good luck with your researches.

We had a C-A church in Chatham until comparatively recently, but it was handed over to a Seventh Day Adventist congregation who replaced it with a new (and, I suspect, much less interesting) building. I never saw it in the flesh, and have also never seen a picture of it. Some of their buildings were elaborate, and others (such as the one in Westminster) were quite modest little affairs.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Well, let's make them an offer and we can recreate a service with BF...

My 1905 Harmsworth Encyclopaedia reports "50,000 communicants, mostly in Britain". That seems a lot.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Well considering the size of some of the London churches and also the fact that most reasonably sized towns appear to have had a church, 50,000 doesn't sound impossible. A very small denomination by Victorian standards even with that number I would have thought and yet in London they have left almost as big a mark architecturally as the Methodists.

Aumbry
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
In Chatham you had the Jezerelites too. Forgive spelling. A very strange sect if ever there was one.

Any traces left?

Aumbry
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The Jezreelites (or 'New and Latter House of Israel') were actually based in Gillingham, but their Tower (never completed) was demolished in the early 1960s. A nearby row of shops built and occupied by them is still in existence, however, complete with some of their signs and symbols thereon.

They were a sort of combination of one of those odd 'British Israelite' sects and followers of the Prophetess Joanna Southcott of 'Flying Roll' fame.......material for another thread, perhaps?

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Just a thought - if, as PB suggests, we recreate a C-A service, can I please be the Angel?

Ian J.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I fear that we are living a charmed life on this thread bearing in mind the ruthless way in which the Swedenborgian thread was terminated. But perhaps the Threadmeister has something against Swedish mystics.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Amphibalus (# 5351) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Well considering the size of some of the London churches and also the fact that most reasonably sized towns appear to have had a church, 50,000 doesn't sound impossible. A very small denomination by Victorian standards even with that number I would have thought and yet in London they have left almost as big a mark architecturally as the Methodists.

While researching something completely different, I chanced across this picture of the 'Catholic & Apostolic Church (Irvingite)' in Bridgnorth, Shropshire. Bridgnorth in 1850 (when this church was built) would have had a population of less than 5,000. The building was in East Castle Street, and thus in direct opposition to the parish church of St Mary's at the other end of the road. The site is now a community centre but - as I remember from my days as a curate in a neighbouring town - has just enough of the original building left to maintain an ecclesiastical air. I never knew why then - but now I do!

I also have a distinct recollection of once passing a small, very dilapidated hut on one of Shropshire's 'less travelled' roads which had a very faded sign proclaiming it to be a CathAp chapel, though it had clearly not been in use for many years. Presumably it had been an outlier from the Bridgnorth congregation.
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
I fear that we are living a charmed life on this thread bearing in mind the ruthless way in which the Swedenborgian thread was terminated. But perhaps the Threadmeister has something against Swedish mystics.

Aumbry

Geneva Gown ON
Issues with the hosting of a board belong in the Styx, not as sly asides on another thread.
As for the reasons for the move, it was made clear in the closing post. It was a "Who are they", not "what do they do/how do they do it" thread, which made it a matter for Purgatory. This thread is discussing the buildings and practices of the CAC, and so within the bounds of MW.
Geneva Gown OFF
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Following on from Amphibalus' remarks above, the Catholic Apostolics did have a number of churches in quite small places. There was one until quite recently at Eynsham near Oxford, for example, but this drew its congregation from erstwhile members of two or three large Baptist chapels in the area.

I should have liked to see the interior of the little hut in the lane, as some C-A churches seem to have had quite elaborate fittings and furnishings! It may well have been used only for Services of the Word, though (rather like the unconsecrated Anglican Mission churches of the same era....).

Ian J.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Well here it is - figures for Catholic Apostolic Church attendances in the County of London in 1904 coutesy of R Mudie-Smith's Religious Life of London, Hodder and Staughton 1904 (500 pages of harmless pleasure if ever there was)

There were 9 congregations in total (so another 2 to add to the list) and the figures represent Sunday attendance (as adjusted for "twicers" who whilst no doubt appreciated by the vicar were a bain to Mr Mudie-Smith the noted Scottish (in those days Scotch - no doubt)statistician.

Camberwell New Road - 473
College Street Chelsea - 292
Duncan Street Islington - 324
Gloucester Road Islington - 278
Gordon House Highgate - 281
Gordon Square - 581
Maida Vale - 489
Mare Street Hackney - 412
Victoria Street Westminster - 102

The C-A's represented 0.32% of total church attendance which compared most closely with the Quakers (0.30%). These figures would support a worldwide membership of 50,000 as this is attendance not membership.

For those interested the following well known Anglican parishes had attendances in 1904 (with current electoral roles in 2004 in brackets)

Category 1 (Keeping pecker up)

Holy Trinity Brompton 1921 (1553)
St Bartholomew the Great 184 (249)

Category 2 (wilting somewhat)

All Saints Margaret Street 734 (177)
St Pancras Parish Church 1500 (147)
St Mary Mag. Munster Square 1085 (59)

Category 3 (rocket-like performance)

St Helens Bishopsgate 82 (720)

So if you ever get into an argument about church attendances in London at the beginning of the twentieth century - I'm your man.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Nice one, aumbry!

Congregations of around 600 at Gordon Square and 500 at Maida Vale (granted, spread over a fair number of services at either church) must have been impressive both to see and hear as they lifted their fervent voices in another of Mr. Eddis's hymns......!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I really must edit my posts properly.....

It occurred to me that by 1904 all the C-A's college of Apostles had passed away (Apostle Woodhouse, who died in 1901, being the last). They had, I believe, been in decline for some time as a result of this, and so these figures may well not represent attendance at its peak.

Ian J.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I agree I think 1860 to 1880 would have been the best period. Apparently 1904 showed a considerable tailing off in congregations over the previous church census in the 1880's. This seems to have been a malaise which affected the Church of England as well.

One thing that does surprise me is how big the Congregationalists were in 1904. In a number of boroughs they were second only in numbers to the Anglicans. For instance in the City of London they had 7,449 worshippers compared to the Church of England's 10,561 with 7,008 of these going to the City Temple. They have left a much smaller mark on the ecclesiastical map than the Catholic Apostolics have.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
It says much for the members of the C-A Church (or, if you want to be cynical, the hold the church authorities had over them....) that so many were still regular attenders three years after it was seen that the premise on which the sect had been built was false.

I find it almost incredible that the church survived as a worshipping body for so long - its doctrines and liturgy must have had a very strong appeal.

Ian J.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Well as Leo said earlier in the thread there are still a few C-Aps living around Gordon Square waiting for the end of the world. Presumably they must think there has merely been a mix-up with the dates.

Surely the most bizarre thing is that they went to all the trouble of building such a magnificent cathedral when they believed that everything would be over within a generation.

Aumbry

PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
quote:
PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?
I suspect that something similar might be going on with the Apostles' chapel at Albury. I'd very much like to get a look inside it but it seems to be off-limits though still maintained.

Has anyone ever been inside it or does anyone know of someone else who has been admitted?

By the way the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica entry on them is quite handy (although it has annoying pop-up adverts and a few scanning errors).

L
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Well as Leo said earlier in the thread there are still a few C-Aps living around Gordon Square waiting for the end of the world. Presumably they must think there has merely been a mix-up with the dates.

Surely the most bizarre thing is that they went to all the trouble of building such a magnificent cathedral when they believed that everything would be over within a generation.

Aumbry

PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?

Jehovah Witness' have a huge high rise HQ named the watchtower don't they? That must've cost a bit
Although their "Kingdom Halls" aren't very magnificant.

-103
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I think you're confusing the JW's with the Church of Christ, Scientist. They have a major plaza built around the original Mother Church, which includes a high-rise office building, a very large fountain/pool, and I believe a secondary and smaller building.

"The Watchtower" is the name of the weekly(?) publication of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which they hand out when they proselytize door-to-door. It is published from a rather ordinary three- or four-story building in Brooklyn, NYC. (I know this because I walked past it a few years ago while visiting family in NYC -- and I will note that it was quite an ordinary building and the only signs I noticed proving that it was the "home" of the JWs were a couple of Building Permits posted in the windows where they were doing some renovations. Which is quite in keeping with their modest houses of worship.

Having said all that, what on earth does this have to do with the Catholic Apostolic Church, 103rd?
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
Jehovah Witness' are predicting the end of the world all the time!

-103
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Presumably they must think there has merely been a mix-up with the dates.

Surely the most bizarre thing is that they went to all the trouble of building such a magnificent cathedral when they believed that everything would be over within a generation.

It seems that as events unfolded during the C19th (the death of the first Apostle, culminating in the death of the last one) the date and the nature of the parousia would have had to be adjusted in the minds of the faithful, though of course we don't know how convinced each of the contributing members was about the end-time. In the meanwhile, they presumably wanted to worship in middle-class comfort and solemnity (don't we all?), just as their Established Church cousins down the road. Their strict tithing, and their middle class prosperity, gave them the means to (so, incidentally, who needs the Church Commissioners?). After all, Henry Drummond spent a good deal of his wealth on greatly extending his house - Albury Park - and as the second Apostle, he must have been pretty convinced in the belief that it was all going to end "soon".

Aumbry's attendance researches are fascinating!

Yes - maybe we need a CathAp Church of Fools, or borrow the Maida Vale temple for a reconstructed CathAp liturgy. But who to get to preach???
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Louise, for the Encyclopaedia Britannica link - an excellent summary of the Catholic Apostolic Church's history, teaching and organisation.

Re the Apostle's Chapel at Albury, we must assume that this is 'mothballed' like the Maida Vale Church. G. L. Standring, author of the booklet I mentioned earlier on this thread, lived in a flat in Henry Drummond's mansion (Albury Park) next door, and describes the Chapel at some length.

It is an 'unpretentious' building and lacks several features (e.g. Angel's seat and seven sanctuary lamps) found in other C-A churches. This is because it was regarded as 'the unique centre of the Universal Church, not of any individual congregation' (although there was indeed a local congregation, which continued to meet and worship there until the 1930s). 'Our Lord himself, whose seat is in heaven', was seen as the 'Angel' or head of the said Universal Church.

I do like the idea of re-creating a Catholic Apostolic service using their Liturgy.......with Archbishop Rowan taking the place of the Apostle or Angel.....?

I have a sneaking feeling, though, that the C-A authorities would somehow not be taken with the notion. They think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them, and this position is, I feel, to be respected.

Ian J.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
The Catholic Apostolic Church (Paddington) General Purposes Fund is a registered charity number 245205.

I may be wrong but I suspect this is the body that maintains the church. It is difficult to see how it can qualify for charitable status if the church is not used for religious purposes and the public is denied access to the building.

Aumbry
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
The Catholic Apostolic Church (Paddington) General Purposes Fund is a registered charity number 245205.

I may be wrong but I suspect this is the body that maintains the church. It is difficult to see how it can qualify for charitable status if the church is not used for religious purposes and the public is denied access to the building.

All very mysterious.

Aumbry
 
Posted by ce (# 1957) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The Catholic Apostolic Church (Paddington) General Purposes Fund is a registered charity number 245205.

I may be wrong but I suspect this is the body that maintains the church. It is difficult to see how it can qualify for charitable status if the church is not used for religious purposes and the public is denied access to the building.

All very mysterious.

Aumbry

It may be that funds are used for other religious or educational purposes - I agree that it would be very interesting (in a rather nosey way) to see their constitution and accounts.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
...registered charity number 245205.

Whoaaaa!!!! Brother Aumbry is off to the Charity Commissioners and the lawyers already. I have to say I rather side with BF's gracious tactfulness and the Time of Silence - it's rather fun to have that air of mystery preserved like a veil over their strange beliefs and rites (or perhaps not so strange these days). I did rather hope that none of them was computer-literate enough to follow our thread here and be offended by our apparent levity. They did at least have the grace to put up some remarkably fine pieces of architecture for us to enjoy (from the outside, Bro Aumbry, if you please!).

[ 02. July 2004, 17:20: Message edited by: Pax Britannica ]
 
Posted by Amphibalus (# 5351) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
They think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them, and this position is, I feel, to be respected.

I had completely forgotten that a former treasurer (until about ten years ago) of one of the (very) small rural parishes just outside Hereford had been a former Catholic Apostolic. He was by far the most generous member of the congregation, a continuous and persistent advocate of tithing, and had footed the bill for many church repairs and alterations - though he was far from the wealthiest parishioner. His reports to the annual meeting were meticulously detailed (to a fault!), but he was on no account to be broached upon the matter of the parousia unless you had at least a clear three or four hours to spare!
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
And this entire page has what to do with practices, liturgy, worship styles, architecture, etc?
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Well has anyone found any C-Ap hymnals yet? I'll try Thorntons in South Ken tomorrow.

I promise to forget any questions of charitable status - they are doing such good work in preserving the churches in Maida Vale and Gordon Square - I'll just have to be satisfied with the exterior of the former.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
quote:
I do like the idea of re-creating a Catholic Apostolic service using their Liturgy.......with Archbishop Rowan taking the place of the Apostle or Angel.....?

I have a sneaking feeling, though, that the C-A authorities would somehow not be taken with the notion. They think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them, and this position is, I feel, to be respected.

It might be nice though to have some kind of service of remembrance and thanksgiving for them somewhere where their congregations have died out and left their church to others as a legacy.

I've often pondered about what might be appropriate for the Edinburgh church. If there were interesting hymns or music I know someone who has contacts with some excellent choirs. Maybe even just a small choir event with some appropriate readings would be nice.

cheers
L.

(who has been meaning to get her own copy of Fr Flegg's book for ages and to do some proper research on the subject)

[ 02. July 2004, 19:44: Message edited by: Louise ]
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Well I am sure there would be plenty of takers for a trip to Edinburgh. Europes lovelist city.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Well has anyone found any C-Ap hymnals yet? I'll try South Ken tomorrow.

Hymns for the Use of the Churches seems to have gone through at least nine editions, according to the British Library, and if there were 50,000 communicants one assumes there were once 50,000 copies in existence. But books have a funny habit of completely disappearing.

And maybe Louise could try to get us a special deal on a bulk order of the Flegg book?

PB (ensuring some mention of the buildings and practices of the CAC, and so keeping this fascinating thread within the Ferrettially-directed bounds of MW)
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Ferrettially-directed? [Paranoid]
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
If I ever find that book going cheap I will be sure to let people know after I've bought a copy!

I've just turned up a reference to a copy of Eddis's 'Hymnal' which was owned by W E Gladstone and here is a link to its Preface but that's as close as I have got to it for now.

By the way, I also found this amusing antiquarian book description

quote:
Fishing at Home and Abroad (London 1913)MAXWELL, Sir Herbert, editor. Sir Herbert Eustace Maxwell, seventh baronet of Monreith (1845-1937) was one of the most celebrated country sportsmen of his day, and his Fishing at Home and Abroad has become a much sought-after record of the fisherman's art before the Great War... Maxwell's lifelong passion for fishing began at an early age as he helped his father manage the Monreith estate. The editors of the Dictionary of National Biography, however, chide him for a lack of purpose in his early life resulting from 'the religious tenets of his parents. Belonging as they did to the Catholic Apostolic Church, and believing that the Second Advent was imminent, neither they nor their children felt the necessity for planning for the future.' Such circumstances produce great fishermen, it seems.
which illustrates the dangers or possibly the advantages of a Catholic Apostolic upbringing.

cheers,
Louise
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Louise's idea of some sort of service of thanksgiving and remembrance for the Catholic Apostolic Church's contribution to Christianity is both moving and appropriate, however difficult it might be to arrange!

AFAIK, the Edinburgh church no longer contains fittings and furnishings, although the splendid murals are being conserved. Given Forward in Faith's use of Christ the King, Gordon Square, this would seem to be a suitable place.......

However.....

Siegfried - I agree that some of the posts on this thread have little to do with liturgy and worship directly, so would it be best to open another thread on All Saints re a possible service for shipmates to attend?

Ian J.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Here is the Catholic Encyclopaedias's entry for the C-Ap's.

Bearing in mind that the entry was written in 1900 when the RC's services would have been at their most spectacular its comments about the C Ap's liturgy make them sound sensational (forgive the Tony Blackburnism)particularly as the Cath. Ency. rarely ever says anything encouraging about non-RC churches.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08174a.htm

Aumbry
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Re- the idea of having a service, I doubt whether you could muster enough personnel. According to Peter Anson's Fashions in Church Furnishings (Faith press 1960) pp. 107-114, you need 64 mninisters. The celebrant is known as an angel His vestments are always white (except for black on Good Friday). he is assisted by 6 elders, 6 prophets, 6 evangelists, 6 pastors and 7 deacons, each with their own acolytes. Also under-deacons, deaconnesses and lay assistants in various coloured cassocks and buskins (slippers). Each rank of the hierarchy had its own sacristy in the Dundee church.

Big services also required 12 apostles.

They also need purple and white copes, [plain albes with no lace, gold thread on vestments on Sundays, preachers in full surplices and the occasional use of the rochet instead of the albe.

Thjere must be no candles but, instead, oil lamps in amber or gold glass. Incense was burnt from a standing (not swung) censer.

There must be sufficient chairs for all the priests to hear penitents.

There were 3 levels of choir seats, depending on the importance of the office.

Morning Prayer was at 6 am, Evening Prayer at 5pm. The solemn choral eucharist was at 10am. There was also benediction by ciborium in the early afternoon for any not present at the consecration.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Leo has a very good point about personnel - I doubt whether many C-A churches even in their prime could muster a full complement (though I may, of course, be wrong)!

These figures are, I believe, 'ideal' rather than 'actual', but the Maida Vale Church does indeed have the three levels of choir stalls and the multitude of vestries etc.

Is any other information regarding the Dundee church available - and is it still in existence?

My understanding of Louise's post was that the suggested service should commemorate the C-A Church rather than reproduce its liturgy in detail, although elements of that could perhaps be used.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
As an aside to Leo's remarks about the times of service, the 'Liturgy and other Divine Offices of the Church' actually states the hours at which some of the services are to be held viz.

Morning Prayer 6.00am daily
Forenoon Service 9.00am on weekdays and 10.00am on Sundays
Afternoon Service 3.00pm on weekdays and 2.00pm on Sundays
Evening Prayer 5.00pm daily

No time is specified for the Holy Eucharist, but there are forms for the 'Administration of the Communion' (i.e. from the Reserved Sacrament) after Morning Prayer (presumably on any day) and after the 2.00pm service on Sundays. Shorter forms of all these services were provided, as the full liturgies were intended to be celebrated or led by the Angel (or Bishop), eho might not always be available.

Standring's booklet quotes from an Edinburgh newspaper report published at the time the Church there was opened in 1881, and the Sunday services differ somewhat from those given above viz.

10.15am A blend of Morning Prayer and Forenoon Service followed by the Eucharist (the whole thing lasting two-and-a-half hours!)
2.15pm Afternoon Service
4.15pm 'a separate service for instruction'
6.30pm 'public preaching' - a sort of 'Mission Service'?

The observant will note that there seems to be no mention of 5.00pm Evening Prayer, but that may well have preceded the 6.30pm preaching.

In the same press report, weekday services are given as Morning and Evening Prayer at 6.00am and 5.00pm, with Forenoon and Afternoon services on Wednesdays and Fridays only.

One wonders how many of the congregation actually attended the weekday services......

Ian J.
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!! [Big Grin]

Is this what we have been talking about?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08174a.htm

They sounded pretty weird (I can really see +Rowen trying to raise the dead, seriously I can actually)

-103
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, 103rd - this entry does refer to the sect we are discussing here (I hate to mention that the same link has already been provided by Aumbry some few posts ago!).

Their doctrines may seem weird to some people, but they were held with great sincerity and conviction, I believe. As all do know, many practices and teachings of churches today seem weird to others........!!

Ian J.
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
Grrrrrr Aumbry..... [Mad]

[Razz] -103
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello all

I found this conversation while surfing and I do not wish to intrude, but I may be able to shed some light in the doctrine of the Catholic Apostolic Church. I have studied it in my youth, for it is part of the history of the church which I belong to the New Apostolic Church.

The Catholic Apostolic Church was formed when a different groups came began questioning the Christian church of their day. They researched the bible and saw that the church was lacking in the ministries it had in the beginning. They found it was lacking the Apostle ministry. For it was the Apostles were given by the Lord to lead His church, and the ones who came together including Henry Drummed, Edward Irving and the rest believed that this ministry was necessary to be established before Christ would return. Though Prophecy this ministry was once again established. If you wish I could go into a long detailed history of events that lead to this re-establishment of the Apostle ministry.

The Catholic Apostolic Church believed that there needed to be 12 Apostles and that each one would need to bring in 12,000 members, making 144,000 members before the Lord would return. After the all 12 of the Apostles were called, they went out on a missionary journey to the leaders of the major Governments at the time and the leaders of the world Christian religions and gave met with them and gave them a book detailing the need for the Apostle ministry in the Lord work and offering their service as Apostles of the Lord. They were mostly rejected.

The warmest reception they received was by the King of Prussia and he allowed them to operate freely in his country. Because of this freedom of operation the Catholic Apostolic Church grew in Prussia and Germany. After a while these original 12 Apostles began to die leaving a void in the Lords work. Though prophecy more Apostles were called in Germany, but the English Apostles rejected these new Apostles and a separation came about between the two working areas. This was about 1864.

The English church, the Catholic Apostolic slowly died away with the death of the Last of its Apostles. The German church continued to grow and became known as the New Apostolic Church and now has over 8,000,000 members.

Thank you

Kevin
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello again

One more thing, yes they were called the Irvingits, but in fact Irving, compared to Henry Drummond and the many others only had a minor roll in the church.

Kevin
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hullo Kevin579, and thanks for your input!

As a member of the New Apostolic Church, you might be able to tell us whether the forms of worship you use are based in any way on the Catholic Apostolic Church's Liturgy - we have discussed the latter at some length on this thread.

Incidentally, I believe Irving was not actually an Apostle as such - the first two being J. B. Cardale and Henry Drummond. IIRC, Irving died before the C-A Church really got going.

Ian J.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

You are right about Irving, but many still call the church by his name. As for its liturgy, I do not believe the liturgy in the New Apostolic Church today resembles the Catholic Apostolic. My best guess is that the Liturgy of the Catholic Apostolic Church of that time would more closely resemble the Episcopal or Perspiration churches of the same time period. Because basically the CAC or its leaders came out of those two denominations. I will go back and find some of my New Apostolic Church history books and see what I can find.

I do know that prophecy was big in the church of that time; it was the prophets that called the Apostles into their ministry. The leadership of the church was though the Apostles. The Apostles then ordained other ministers to serve in the church, such as Bishops and Priests.

Kevin
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The Catholic Apostolic Liturgy developed over several decades, and I have a copy of it dating from the 1880s.

The services are quite advanced and complex, with elements of Anglican, Roman Catholic and Orthodox practice. My understanding was that the New Apostolic Church had moved away from using these forms of service, but it would be nice to know for sure! You will see from earlier posts on this thread that some of us feel a degree of sadness that such a beautiful and dignified Liturgy should no longer be in use.

Ian J.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

As I'm not completely familiar with the CAC Liturgy, I can tell you the elements of the New Apostolic sermon and church in general and you can decide for yourself how similar or dissimilar it is.

Both the CAC and the NAC believe in the need for the Apostle ministry to prepare Christianity for the Lords return. In both cases the Apostles lead the church.

In both denominations the Apostles choose and ordain other ministries to lead the different working areas and congregations. For example there is an Apostle and in his working area there may be two bishops, under the bishops there may be some evangelists or shepherds and under the evangelists some priests.

In the CAC there was a ministry of a prophet. There has been no real prophecy in the NAC since the first part of the last century.

For the New Apostolic church, in the basic teaching one can find similarities with the Roman Catholic and the Lutheran and some other protestant religions. Often times I have heard when discussion the church with a protestant we are accused of being too catholic. When talking to a Catholic we are accused of being two protestant.

The New Apostolic is not big on ritual; unlike say the Catholic we do not have the incense. I guess you would say our services are simple when compared to some others. I think the NAC has come under more of a puritan influence, we are not extremely ornate.

Our service, each congregation has a choir that begins to sing 15 minutes before service. At 5 minutes before service the choir ends and only the organ plays. At about 1-2 minutes prior to service the organ stops and the congregation is silent. When the service begins the congregation begins to sing a congregational hymn the priest or officiate walks from the sacristy to behind the altar.

After the congregational hymn is ended the officiate opens the service in prayer. After the prayer the choir again sings a song and then the sermon begins. After about 15-20 minutes the officiate will ask the choir to sing another hymn or maybe the congregation, and he will ask another serving brother to assist in the sermon, maybe two or three others depending on time. After the others have assisted the officiate will say a few more words.

About 45 minutes after the sermon had begun, we will celebrate Holy Communion. The officiate will ask the congregation to rise and say the Lords Prayer in unison. After the Lords prayer the priest or officiate will pronounce the Absolution or forgiveness of sins, then say a short prayer. When the short prayer is finished the officiate the consecrates the elements of bread and wine for the holy Lords supper

After the consecration the congregation is invited for Holy Communion. The priestly ministries will come down from behind the alter and stand in front of it and the congregation will come forward to receive the host. Our communion host is a small piece of unleavened bread, round, with an imprint of the Lord Jesus on one side and three drops of wine on it. During communion the congregation or choir will sing softly.

When communion is finished, the officiate will close the service in prayer. After the closing prayer the choir will sing a ending song.

That is the basic structure of the NAC service, so you can tell me how close that comes to the Catholic Apostolic or not.

Both churches had or have three sacraments.

Holy Baptism

Holy Communion

and Holy Sealing (this is where the Apostle lays his hands on your forehead to transmit the holy spirit into your heart and soul.)

Kevin
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Fascinating!

Sounds to me as though the New Apostolic Church is still very much Catholic Apostolic in its organisation and ministries, but has reverted to an earlier and simpler form of worship - perhaps rather more like that of the original C-A Church before they developed their rituals......

Do you, Kevin579, use set forms of prayer etc., or does the officiating minister make it up as he goes along? The C-A Liturgy seems to leave very little room for 'extemporare' prayer.

Ian J.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

We have no set pre written prayers; all prayers come out of the heart and soul of the one praying. The only exception to this, of course, is when we say the Lords prayer.

The great majority of our ministers are laymen. None of our sermons are written either. Our services are based on a bible text and a few paragraphs of explanation or of a teaching based on that text. The officiate and those that assist read and study the bible and the paragraphs given and that is the foundation for the service.

The same bible text and the paragraphs the text and the paragraphs are provided by our Chief Apostle, the leader of the New Apostolic Church. The same text and paragraphs are used in most all the congregations for any particular service. We have two services a week, one Sunday Morning and one in the midweek, mostly Wednesday evening.

Kevin
 
Posted by pater ursus (# 2512) on :
 
Dear Bishop's Finger, my apologies, but is there any connection with the "Catholic Apostolic Church" and the "Old Catholics" (Not Roman)??

I hope you don't mind me asking.

Cheers

Pax et Bonum
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Whilst not Bishop's Finger I think that there is no connection between the two churches apart from the use of catholic in their titles.

The Old Catholics are a breakaway from the Roman Catholic Church and the Apostolic Catholics are not, taking their original membership from various British protestant denominations.

Aumbry
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Kevin579 confirms, I think, that the New Apostolic Church has indeed gone back to its roots, as it were, the Catholic Apostolic Church having begun life very much as a non-Conformist group with no set liturgy.

Does the New Apostolic Church still set great store by 'gifts of the Spirit' (e.g. speaking in tongues) and a belief that Our Lord's return is quite imminent? I take Kevin's point that the gift of prophecy has not been seen much in recent times.

Thanks, Aumbry, for the remarks re Old Catholics - IIRC, there was a recent separate thread on that subject on this board.

Ian J.
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
The Old Catholics thread is currently residing near the top of page 2.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello Bishop

The NewApostolic Church awaits the return of our Lord Jesus to take home His bride. Our core belief is the same as the Catholic Apostolic Church was. Actually I view it as they split off from us rather than we from them. We kept on the same path and teaching while they went thier own way. The speaking in tongues was ended at the same time as the prophetcy. My great grandmother was actually a prophet at the time it was ended, she for one was happy she did not have to bear that burden anymore.

You said that the Catholic Apostolic changed its liturgy as it developed, do you know when this change came about? I was just wondering if it was after the split in 1864.

Kevin
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Kevin579 - thanks for your answers!

The Catholic Apostolic Liturgy continued to develop after the split from the German church in 1864.

At the beginning there was a marked Church of Scotland influence (hardly surprising, as Irving was a Presbyterian) with the minister using his own words. In 1837 the Apostles issued a lithographed form of Communion Service - this had no formal Epistle or Gospel and most of the prayers were still extempore.

A more formal liturgy was introduced at Christmas 1843 (when vestments were used for the first time). Lights and incense were first used in 1851. Several revised versions were printed between then and the eighth edition of 1880, when the Liturgy reached its final form. A German version was first published in 1850.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
I have had a number of encounters with Catholic Apostolics over the years. As the clergy dwindled many of the faithful were encouraged to go to the CofE for the Sacraments and indeed played a full part in parish life whilst still meeting in house groups and raising funds. I think a subdeacon still existed in Liverpool until fairly recently. An ex-CathAp couple were parishioners in my last Anglican parish and a GP / priest was a former CathAp in Chester Diocese. When I joined the Orthodox Church I discovered that one of its priests in my region was a former CathAp-Anglican. The folk are still around but I should imagine that they are very thin on the ground now.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I'm not surprised to hear Father Gregory's remarks about C-As being gently directed towards the C of E etc. as their own clergy departed. It chimes in with their view of themselves as not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.

It would be interesting to hear the reminiscences of these good folk regarding the C-A Church and its practices.....

Ian J.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
...not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.

While perhaps not being heretical they were (are?) nonetheless regarded as schismatic by the Established Church.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

I would emagine that now the are no more former mebers left. I Think thier last Apostle died about 100 years ago now.

Kevin
 
Posted by pater ursus (# 2512) on :
 
Hi again, Sorry I know I am being rather dense, but maybe with your help, love and guidance i might manage to resolve my confusion.

Aumbry said and I quote "The Old Catholics are a breakaway from the Roman Catholic Church and the Apostolic Catholics are not, taking their original membership from various British protestant denominations."

Are you saying the Apostolic Catholics took there original membership from the protestant churches? If so, how can the ApC's still be "ok" with their RC roots as opposed to the Old Catholics? How is the ApC NOT a breakaway?

I am glad this is not Hell or Purgotory, I am sure my question would get a lot of flack otherwise.

Peace to us all.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
There seems to be a little confusion here....

As I understand it, the sect known as the Catholic Apostolic Church began in England in the 1830s as a result of the breaking away from the Presbyterian Church of Scotland of the Rev. Edward Irving (hence the alternative soubriquet of 'Irvingites'). The sect grew rapidly during the mid-19th century, with former Anglicans, Non-conformists and (possibly?) Roman Catholics jopining it. Its Liturgy developed over the same period, and contains strong elements of Anglican, Roman Catholic and Orthodox practice, although originally it was much closer to Presbyterian forms. The last Apostle died in 1901, and, since no further Angels (or Bishops) could be ordained, the clergy and membership has dwindled almost to vanishing point. The Church still exists, however, as a Charity, and several of its buildings are still in its care. There may, indeed, still be members who meet for prayer and study.....?

The New Apostolic Church dates from 1864, when Catholic Apostolics in Germany decided to continue to elect Apostles to replace those who had died in the UK. This resulted in a schism, as the Church in the UK refused to acknowledge the validity of this move. From Kevin579's posts above, it appears that this Church still flourishes world-wide, and seems to resemble the Catholic Apostolic Church as it was in its very earliest days.

The Old Catholic Church is a breakaway group from the Roman Catholic Church (see separate thread on this board) and bears no relationship to the other two sects we are discussing here, AFAIK.

Hope that makes things a bit clearer.....!

Ian J.
 
Posted by pater ursus (# 2512) on :
 
Ahhhh!!! Thank You Bishop's Finger. Now I am a little clearer.
I was under the impression that due to my first post on here, we were suggesting the Catholic Apostolic Church was in communion with the Roman Catholics and that the Old Catholics were not. I am aware the OC are not, and assumed the same for the CApC.
Thank you again.
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I popped over to Hackney last week and am pleased to report that the former Catholic Apostolic Church still exists in Mare Street and is in the hands of the Greek Orthodox. Unlike Gordon Square and Maida Vale this is not a particularly distinguished building architecturally although I can only speak for the exterior as it was locked.

The only feature it has which appears to be a Catholic Apostolic peculiarity is the bay of the baptistry (I assume)in the middle of the west end of the church as can be seen at Maida Vale.

As the German Catholic Apostolic Church does not seem to have gone in for the elaborate ceremony of the mother church I assume that they adopted a more low key type of architecture but would be interested to know where their principal churches are to be found in Germany and the US.

I believe I am right in thinking that the RC's accept that the Old Catholics have apostolic succession although they are not in communion but as far as the RC's are concerned the C-Aps are (or where rather) just another protestant sect.

Aumbry

Aumbry
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

Our churches can be found in abundance in German, I believe there we are the second or third largest church in the country. We have churches in England, Scotland and Ireland as well. You can find the New Apostolic Churches world wide, the greatest growth and the bulk of our membership is in the third world. We have about 40,000 members in the US but say in India we have well over a 1,000,000 we also have over a 1,000,000 in the Congo.

As for the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church and its formation, if I can find the book that I have on it I will post it.

Kevin
 
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I cannot think of one New Apostolic Church in England. Where is the London church?

If the New Apostolics are one of the three largest churches in Germany they must come a very poor third in size to the Lutherans and Catholics. I've been to quite a few towns in Germany and apart from the two main confessions have seen Calvinst, Old Catholic and Baptist churches even an Anglican church (in Augsburg) but not New Apostolics. Perhaps they are all concentrated in one area? Unless of course they are called something different. Would it be possible to have a connection to a website?

Aumbry
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
More information for Aumbry and others on the Agapemonites’ Ark of the Covenant in Clapton.

The ‘church’ was erected, right at the end of Henry Prince’s (the notorious founder of the scandalous sect) life, when they had all otherwise long retreated behind high walls in Spaxton, Somerset. Stained glass windows are said to depict the submission of womankind to man. After the 1896 dedication the building was rarely used (Prince died in 1899), until Hugh Smyth-Pigott, sometime curate of S. Jude’s, Mildmay Park, decided to make himself heir to Prince’s funds and seraglio, and declared himself to be the Messiah from its pulpit on his first ‘service’ there, Sept 7, 1902. Subsequent riots caused him to retire to Spaxton, and again the place was infrequently used, except for events that seem to be mere opportunities for S-P to solicit rich/attractive young women (such as 1917-1921 after Ruth Preece, the “Bride of the Lamb”, who bore him three children, walked out on him). New windows were added to the Ark even at this stage. Several mysterious night-time rituals were conducted at Clapton by the ailing S-P in 1926; later that year, the London Mormons unsuccessfully tried to buy the building. It seems to have remained the property of the Ags during the life of Ruth: when she died in 1956, her funeral was held at the Spaxton chapel by the Revd H.P. Nicholson, of the Church of the Good Shepherd, Chelsea, as CoE clergy had declined to do so. No doubt not coincidentally, Nicholson, a former head waiter, obtained a lease of the Ark that same year for his own sect, and reopened the church. The financial demise of the Ags was probably precipitated by a ruling the year before by Harman J. (in those days – later to go on to higher Lordly things) that a Miss Fysh’s bequest to the Ark was not for ‘religious purposes’. He was ‘unable to discover any religious purposes that the church served, or had done for fifty years’. No doubt Mr Justice Aumbry would concur.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Many thanks, PB - in the absence of a Catholic Apostolic church to MW (note the clever return to the OP!), I really shall try to investigate the Ancient Catholic Church soon......

It's a bit scary, so if I disappear from this board suddenly, you know where to look.......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
The Ag's hymnal was "The Voice of the Bride". #16 goes:

Here is the land of pure delight;
Here dawns the day that knows no night;
Here where I walk with Him in white;
Here, here, here, rejoice!


Do you like that, Louise?

Church Studios, Crouch End, claims to be an Ag chapel.
 
Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
Many thanks, PB - in the absence of a Catholic Apostolic church to MW (note the clever return to the OP!), I really shall try to investigate the Ancient Catholic Church soon......

It's a bit scary, so if I disappear from this board suddenly, you know where to look.......

Ian J.

Ancient Catholics are more orthodox in worship style than Romish aren't they? Or am I mistaken?

-103
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
WE DON'T KNOW! If only someone will get up to Clapton and the pussy and doggie blessings and the clairvoyance medium meeting (Thursdays at 7:30) we'd all find out. Then we can all die content.

PB (Wishing Concorde were still around to whisk him off to see for himself).
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I've lost track of who's what-who-which, but if this thread is now talking about Old Catholics, would you all please move the discussion to that thread?
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
No: Ancient Catholics are not Old Catholics. This is a sort of omnibus thread: the Ancient Catholic Church, the New Apostolic Church, and the Agapemonites, as well as the Catholic Apostolic Church. But not the Old Catholic Church.
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Thanks, Pax. Just making sure.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Here is a link to the website of the New Apostolic Church in the UK. From here you can find the locations of the churches. We have 29 in Elgland, one in Jersey and one on the Isle of man. One in Wales, two in Scotland and three in Ireland.


http://www.nacukie.org/

Kevin
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, well.....there's a New Apostolic Church in Gillingham, not very far from me! I feel another MW report coming on......

Kevin579, I take it visitors are welcome to New Apostolic services?

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
jlg is right - this is becoming something of an 'omnium gatherum' of a thread.

Catholic Apostolic Church - begun c.1835 and now almost vanished;

New Apostolic Church - split from the above in 1864, still very much alive and well and following much the same doctrines (but not liturgical practices);

Agapemonites/Ancient Catholic Church - nothing whatever to do with Old Catholics or the above, introduced onto this thread as something of a tangent. Investigation pending - I suggest whoever MWs it first starts a separate thread!

Apologies for any confusion.

Ian J.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello Bishop

Yes, visitors are very welcome.

Kevin
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
quote:
The Ag's hymnal was "The Voice of the Bride". #16 goes:

Here is the land of pure delight;
Here dawns the day that knows no night;
Here where I walk with Him in white;
Here, here, here, rejoice!

Do you like that, Louise?

It would depend a lot on the music!

I've been rather busy of late and haven't had the leisure to go hunting in archives/second hand bookshops for things Catholic and Apostolic. Maybe when I get a bit of leave I'll remedy that.

L.
 
Posted by Bonaventura (# 5561) on :
 
Dear all

I read this thread with interest some time ago while still in Oxford. I had never heard of the catholic apostolics before. Then I came back and ate dinner with my vicar here in Oslo, he mentioned that near his childhood home there was an 'old catholic' congregation and that now their church was taken over by the Greek Orthodox. I was incredulous, I had read that the church was inhabited by some strange eschatological people who vanished as their predicitions did not come true, so these could not be the same same 'old catholics' of the utrecht union who broke away after Vatican I.

Then this evening I remembered this thread and it dawned on me: of course those were catholic apostolics in Oslo! And these were not of the German type who later elected new apostles, the were of the british kind who had built a gothic style church and did not elect new apostles.

You can see a picture and a brief description of the church here:

http://orbitz.wcities.com/en/record/162,112502/97/
 
Posted by Last Angel (# 8098) on :
 
When I was a student in Birmingham in 1971, Douglas Hickman’s ‘Birmingham’ in the City buildings series (Studio Vista) led me to the former Catholic Apostolic (then Greek Orthodox) Church in Summer Hill Terrace. I was enthralled with this red-blooded High Victorian building by Birmingham architect J. A. Chatwin with its finely-shaped interior, and, even more, intrigued by its origins. Conversation led to Dr. Robert Hetherington, one of whose former patients had been Charles Whitehead Thonger, the last Angel (bishop) of this church. The Doctor, a fount of knowledge about Birmingham ecclesiology, expounded the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church and described services that he had attended in this great building.
He lent me a copy of Rowland Davenport’s ‘Albury Apostles’ (United Writers Press, 1970). I found Thonger’s gravestone (at St. Bartholomew’s Edgbaston) which described him simply as ‘a faithful minister of his flock’. I got to know some Cathaps who still used some rooms at the church; they declined, however, to let me attend one of their services of prayer.

Back at home in south London in the summer vacation of 1972, one weekday, church-crawling north of the Thames I tried my luck at the Maida Avenue church. A request to visit the interior met with a polite refusal and an invitation to attend their Sunday service. So back I went, having made excuses at J. L. Pearson’s kindred St. Michael’s Croydon where I was an altar boy. Arriving to find that the CA service was cancelled due to the Underdeacon’s illness, I pleaded the long distance travelled on the dregs of a student grant and was treated to a tour of the building by the caretaker. The memory of this experience is vivid after over thirty years: standing aghast at this high-minded, stony interior with its calm proportions, vaulted vistas and austere fittings. The plan and elevations of this 1894 church seemed similar to the type Pearson first used at St. Peter’s Vauxhall (1863) and developed at St. Michael’s Croydon, St. Alban’s Birmingham, St. Agnes Liverpool (not St. Augustine’s Kilburn which is very different), but with more complexity in the subsidiary spaces, including a fully aisled apsidal S. chapel. It is amazing that structural stability is achieved in these buildings without flying buttresses: the lateral thrust of the vaults seems constrained only by the thin skin of the clerestory walls which are taller than they would be in a medieval church: to what extent did 19th century advances in mathematics and physics allow architects to calculate structural stress and the properties of materials with greater exactitude?

The caretaker described how, after the death of the last CA priest, Wilfred Maynard Davson, the last deacon had consumed the Blessed Sacrament, extinguished the light before the tabernacle and roped off the sanctuary. I loved this silent church: with a total lack of 20th century interventions, it was profoundly satisfying. I have never returned to Maida Avenue, but it is good to read that the church is still looked after.

Upon leaving Birmingham and gaining a job in London University, I became involved with the University Chaplaincy which had as it place of worship the former central CA church in Gordon Square. I got to know some Cathaps who still lived in the Square: they seemed courteous, very orthodox in belief, and reserved, even secretive in talking about ‘the Lord’s work’. They said that I should not be in possession of a copy of Dr. Davson’s ‘Sermons for the third stage of the Lord’s work’ which I’d managed to acquire.

Much light is thrown upon the Catholic Apostolic Church’s theology and liturgy by Columba Flegg’s study ‘Gathered under Apostles’ (OUP, 1992). This reveals a very attractive 19th century intellectual group with highly developed ideas of ministry, sacraments and eschatology. There was a fourfold ‘vertical’ ministry of Apostles, Angels (bishops), Priests and Deacons, within which there was a fourfold ‘horizontal’ division into Apostles, Prophets, Pastors and Evangelists. Their view of the Real Presence was close to the Eastern Orthodox position and thus avoided western controversies about transubstantiation, consubstantiation and the ‘real absence’. The Eucharistic liturgy drew upon a range of sources, RC, Orthodox and Anglican. There were two entrances to the sanctuary, at the Gloria and the Introit (equivalent to the offertory in the western rite): this corresponds to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, from which the Anaphora (prayer of consecration) seems also to have been drawn. Other features, though, were unique to the Catholic Apostolic rite, for example the double epiclesis (recited after consecrating both bread and wine) and the use of incense only to symbolise intercession, during the incense anthem (another unique feature) and intercession which followed the consecration. People and objects were not censed. G. O Standring in ‘Albury and the Catholic Apostolic Church’ says that the censer was waved towards the altar, though some churches seem to have used a standing thurible (at Christ the King we used a swung thurible that survived from the CA period). Standring states that the use of incense was suspended after the death of the last Apostle (F. V. Woodhouse) in 1901 and other writers attest this, but Dr. Hetherington’s description of a ‘High Mass’ in the Birmingham church, and descriptions elsewhere of ‘full’ services at Gordon Square in the 1930s suggest that incense was still used.

The long, slow death of the Catholic Apostolic Church after 1901 is described in Seraphim Newman-Norton’s book ‘The time of silence’ (1974) and in D. Tierney’s article ‘The Catholic Apostolic Church: a study in Tory Millenarianism’ in ‘Historical Research’ LXIII, no. 152 1990, p. 289-315. The latter, as its title suggests, proposes some intriguing theories about the sociology of the Church: whatever the truth of these, an impressive body of liturgy, theology and architecture remains to evoke a colourful ‘alternative 19th century religious movement, that was home to much piety and learning.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Bonaventura!

The Catholic Apostolics did try to reach all the Christian world with their message......c.f. a previous post referring to a C-A church in the USA. The picture shows a small and unassumimg building, probably typical of many C-A buildings which have long since disappeared.

As a literary aside to this thread, I recently came across a mention of the church in Maida Vale in Barbara Vine's novel 'Grasshopper'. The heroine, a young student called Clodagh, visits the church one Sunday morning in the late 1980s....

'The Irvingites at the Holy Catholic Apostolic in Maida Avenue were unwelcoming, didn't throw me out but made me cover my head with a rather nasty chiffon scarf they produced from a collection kept for that purpose.'

Sounds to me as if the author (aka Ruth Rendell) may have spoken from personal experience, even though she got the name slightly wrong!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bonaventura (# 5561) on :
 
Dear Bishop's finger and all other readers of this tread.

I just found a wonderful page which might interest you.

I found a danish page with pictures of the interior of a now demolished catholic-apostolic church in Denmark (not sure which city). The interior of the church would in all probability be much like the one in Oslo, Norway previously described.

The two churches at the bottom of the page are still in use (by the A-Cs), though sung litanies only.

http://www.meng-soerensen.dk/Nostalgi/Katolskap.htm

The other page details catholic-apostolic vestments!

Note that only picture 3,4,6,7 and 8 is of A-C vestments, the rest are lutheran and Roman-catholic wich the author uses to compare with the A-C vestments.

http://www.meng-soerensen.dk/Katap/katapkirke.htm

The author emphasises again that liturgical colours were not used to indicate season, but rank.

So for picture 6, the colours of the stoles indicate the ranks of:

elder = yellow stole
prophet = blue stole
evangelist = red stole
pastor = white stole

though at the eucharist everone wore purple or white stoles. At baptism everyone wore white, except for the evangelist who wore red.

Picture seven details how everyone below the rank of angel crossed their stoles when wearing an alb.

Sorry for the Danish folks, but I am willing to translate even more for anyone that is interested.

[ 04. August 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Bonaventura ]
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Many thanks, Last Angel, for that long and fascinating posting that answers many questions!
Is "Gathered under Aps" you think worth acquiring?

And Seraphim Newman-Norton appears to be with us still under another ecclesiastical incarnation. 'Nuff said.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Once again, many thanks to Bonaventura for these fascinating links! What a shame that the little church illustrated has been demolished - a perfect gem, and probably typical of many in this country. I was also intrigued to hear that services are still being held elsewhere in Denmark, albeit the Litany only.

All we need now is an audio link to some Catholic Apostolic hymns and anthems......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh, and my personal thanks too to Last Angel for his scholarly post - I've learnt a great deal about this sect from this thread, and Last Angel has expressed much better than I can the feelings of admiration and respect I have for them.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Last Angel (# 8098) on :
 
If you go to http://www.apostolic.de you'll find a German Catholic Apostolic site with history, theological and liturgical documents and pictures of many churches.
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

It has been some time since I have been here, a few months ago I said that I would print some of the history of the origions of the CAC, here it is:

A great number of honourable and godfearing men, especially in Scotland and England, had for a long time been absorbed in the study of the Bible. In earnest conversation concerning the fulfilment of the divine promises, accompanied by fervent prayers, they sought peace of the soul and revival of the faith. They were not so-called secretarians, and certainly not the worst members of the Anglican Church. Repeatedly they pleaded to the faithful God to grant them the necessary enlightenment and understanding of that which God really wanted to convey to them through the given promises. They also realized with increasing clarity that the return of the Lord was imminent. In this manner more and more friends and partisans, as well as those who were filled with the same desire for more light and knowledge than what they had received so far, came together. They met regularly for earnest prayer meetings. At that time however they were quite unaware of the great thoughts which the Lord had for these faithful souls who were yearning for redemption. In childlike faith they prayed for another abundant second outpouring of the Holy Ghost as at Pentecost. They were convinced that the Lord, according to His promises concerning the early and latter rain, would again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh prepared for this purpose. They also knew that God expected man to cry out for his needs. Besides, He had promised to grant the Holy Spirit to all those who brought this request before Him. These godfearing souls, who still belonged to their former Church, knew that God would hear them one day and answer them as well. They however did not anticipate in which manner this was going to take .place.
12

[material deleted due to copyright considerations]

These facts, which for some people were the cause for strife and annoyance, were accepted by others with ready cognizance and joyful hope. Many seriously minded ministers of various denominations heard the news and deeds of God with great joy. The testimony of their faith moved other hearts in turn, and in this manner the number of believers increased.

Kevin

[ 17. September 2004, 01:42: Message edited by: jlg ]
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Hostly Mobcap ON

Since it is rather unusual for people to write posts which are the equivalent of over ten single-spaced typed pages, and which include numbered paragraph/page breaks in the middle of sentences and references to confirming something "...in the next chapter", I have to presume that this was cut and pasted from another source, which makes it a potential Commandment 7 violation. Therefore I have deleted the bulk of the material.

If you wish to provide access to large amounts of material, please provide a link to a source elsewhere.

Hostly Mobcap OFF
 
Posted by Carilloneur (# 8279) on :
 
A link would indeed be very useful for those of us who were not quick enough to read this material before deletion!
 
Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

The information was from a church publication printed in 1975, I do not know of any link or if the information is printed on the net or not, I will check though. The book was distributed free of charge to the members of the church and I did not see any copyright restrictions.

Kevin
 
Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Be ye resurrected! An enquiry awaits in Purgatory!
 
Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
hmm, well I started a thread in Purg about the CACs, but wanted I wanted to know about was their theology and teachings, particularly about family life, role of women etc, rather than liturgy and architecture, but that threads been closed and referred here.

I'mm guessing that's off topic here, so what's my best move now?
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I'll flag it up with the Purg hosts and see if your thread can be re-opened with this clarification.

So the next step is to be patient. [Biased]
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Belatedly dons Hostly Mobcap

The CAC thread in Purg is now re-opened for those wishing to discuss Manda's concerns.

This thread remains available for discussion of liturgy and worship spaces, etc.

Hostly Mobcap OFF
 
Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
Thank ye kindly. This one was very interesting to read as well. I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great) probably from around the 1920's or maybe earlier, possibly until the 1970's - not exactly sure. My Danish ancestors were also part of the Danish bit of the CACs - which is how they met, when one of them came to UK as an au-pair, and started attending the London branch.

We have somewhere various pieces of CAC literature including a copy of 'Gathered under Apostles' - and possibly some litrgical books. I will try and remember at Christmas to have a look around at home and see what's there, there may possibly be hymnals and other things.

PS, I think my Mum has possible been inside the Gordon Sqaure church - I will ask, and see what she thought of it

[ 02. December 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: Manda ]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great)

You're only 8 miles out [Snigger]

Gordon Square is in Bloomsbury, right next to UCL, about half way between the British Museum and Euston Station, just a stone's throw (literally) from the back of the building I'm sitting in right now.

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.
 
Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
Bishops Finger and others

Did anyone MW a New Apostolic Church? If so, please let me know.

As I'm free this Sunday and there are a number within easy reach of me, I'd quite like to see how a number of their worship elements work together.

Blessings!
 
Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great)

You're only 8 miles out [Snigger]

Gordon Square is in Bloomsbury, right next to UCL, about half way between the British Museum and Euston Station, just a stone's throw (literally) from the back of the building I'm sitting in right now.

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

lol, so which one is it likely to be? Only thought Gordon Sqaure cos the name sounded familiar, but that may be the one my Mum visited rather than where they used to go to

[ 02. December 2004, 19:13: Message edited by: Manda ]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
There's a New Apostolic Church near me, but, alas, I haven't yet found time to MW it.....

Manda, the Gordon Square church was the CAC's 'Cathedral', (it should have been even bigger but was never completed) and is at present used, I believe, by Forward in Faith for weekday services. It remains vested in the Catholic Apostolic Church, and is well worth visiting if anyone's there around lunchtime (so I gather).

Any books, especially liturgical ones/hymnals, you may happen to find will probably be most interesting.....and rare!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Chief of sinners (# 8794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pax Britannica:
Well, let's make them an offer and we can recreate a service with BF

I'd like to attend that if it ever became possible
 
Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
MW'ed a NAC this morning and will submit it soon.
Meanwhile some thoughts are in the Purgatory thread.
Blessings!
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
Whilst replying to Mark in Purg I came across the website of another offshoot of the Cath Aps - the Apostolic Church of Queensland which came directly off the German branch of the old CAs and which broke away from the New Apostolic Church when they tried to appoint a new chief apostle in the 1900s. It has a very interesting history page which includes the sufferings of the first Apostle to Australia who was afflicted amongst other things by Kookaburras, death adders and an infestation of wallabies. Strewth - it was a hard life as an Apostle then!

Apostolic Church of Queensland

L
 
Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
ALERT

I'm not sure if this is within the Ship's rules but a host/admin will correct it if not, please.

I'm posting it here for obvious reasons.

I am picking up the Dedler worm and can only think it is coming from the website for the New Apostolic Church - the one which includes nacukie within it's address - I go to the Romford church bit.

Hope this is helpful.

I've also posted in Purgatory.
 
Posted by Carilloneur (# 8279) on :
 
quote:
Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.


The FinF chapel at the eastern end of Christ the King, Gordon Square is open daily and there is a daily said mass but the body of the church is kept locked.

The only opportunity to see the church is when it is opened for the very occasional FinF jamboree service and on the first Friday of every month for an organ recital between 1310 and 1400 hrs.

The interior is very fine and on a grand scale and is still fitted out with the 'paraphenalia' of the Catholic Apostolic Church.

If you attend an organ recital, you will find that the church is opened well before 1310 hrs. and there is an opportunity to wander around the building to admire the architecture and craftsmanship, before settling down to listen to the quite splendid organ.

Like the Maida Vale church, this cathedral-sized building is maintained in a moth-balled condition. It is still heated, lit, repaired, maintained and cleaned and the organ kept tuned.

It is quite an extraordinary place and well worth visiting! The next recital is on 7th January 2005.
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:


Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

That is truly bizarre then, because the English Chapel is open Monday to Friday 8 am to 4 pm, with the liturgy celebrated every day.
 
Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
ALERT

I'm not sure if this is within the Ship's rules but a host/admin will correct it if not, please.

I'm posting it here for obvious reasons.

I am picking up the Dedler worm and can only think it is coming from the website for the New Apostolic Church - the one which includes nacukie within it's address - I go to the Romford church bit.

Hope this is helpful.

I've also posted in Purgatory.

I think I may be too - well I don't know what it is, but I've got several very strange, incoherant but religiousy sounding e-mails on the e-mail address I use for the ship - any advice anyone?
 
Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
Further post - and this is one for admin / hosts I think, please.

I got it again after cleaning with McAfee (which actually cleans it when it arrives but I run it anyway).

This time I had not clicked on the NAC site - only on SofF

SO IS SofF SOMEHOW SENDING THIS OUT?

I'm not pointing the finger, just trying to be helpful.

On second thoughts, perhaps I'd better PM an admin / host directly - but I'll keep this here for the time being.

I do realise I'm being paranoid.

Blessings! Virus-free.
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I'll mention it on the Hosts board and see what the residents techies have to say.
 
Posted by levana (# 8860) on :
 
Only just picked up on this thread after a google search. I visited Maida Avenue yesterday and see that there seems to be building work going on, as there are several big containers in front of the church and various bits of construction paraphenalia around. I wondered if this was some sort of flat conversion , but in view of the comments earlier in the thread maybe this is unlikely. Nothing outside to explain what is happening. In Ware in Hertfordshire there is a former Catholic Apostolic Church (not large or architecturally distinguished ) which has been converted into flats.
I also notice the comments about Christ the King in Gordon Square, I visited there and saw that the English chapel was open but the rest of the church closed due to building work. I can recall in the 1970s visiting several times when the whole church was freely accessible to visitors. It was then and as far as I can tell still is the home of the University of London Anglican chaplaincy despite still being in CA ownership.
Certainly oneof the most impressive 19th century church interiors in London.

Are the two lots of building work connected?

I see that http://www.charitiesdirect.com/charity3/ch012743.htm suggest the church has an income of £550,000 pa, which seems quite high for an essentlally "sleeping" organisation.

Just a few random thoughts on a fascinating sect.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I suspect (and hope) that the building work being carried out on the Maida Avenue church is connected with maintenance of the fabric rather than conversion! I should have thought that if, God forbid, it was being turned into flats, there would be an enormous billboard outside advertising the fact.....

The building work at Gordon Square may well also be to do with maintenance.

The C-A's annual income may well be derived from interest on investments - in their heyday they were a wealthy sect, and practised tithing as a matter of course.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Colombus (# 8946) on :
 
I was just passing when I came upon this website and this thread about the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I have been doing some family history research (aren't we all) and came across the following.

1845 Catholic and Apostolic Church opened at Snow Hill Wolverhampton.

My Great Great Great Aunt Mary Ann Oakley marries at Apostolic Church Wolverhampton in 1852

Her sister Caroline Louisa Oakley marries at Apostolic Church In Gordon Square in 1854.
The entry being No 1 in the Apostolic Registers

Her brother John Oakley marries at the Church in Wolverhampton in 1859

John was ordained a Deacon at the Apostolic Church in Wolverhampton in 1865 and ordained a Priest in 1868.

In 1881 he lived with his wife Elizabeth in Islington and was a Minister in the Catholic And Apostolic Church.

He died in 1908 a Clergyman of what faith I know not but presumeably Apostolic.

In 1893 the Church at Snow Hill Wolverhampton closed and a new Church opened in Bath Road Wolverhampton.This Church is still there owned by the Apostolic Church but leased to the "Christ the King " denomination.

I have been round the Church, a really beautiful building.

Early in 2004 I went to London to view the Gordon Square Church as I appear to have some family connection only to find it locked and off limits to people but an FinF service ongoing in a side chapel.
On explaining the reason for my visit to the Priest taking the service ,he kindley went upstairs and had a word with the Secretary to the Trustees Of The Apostolic Church.
He was very reluctant to allow me access to the Church until I provided proof by way of Marriage and Death Certificates that I was a direct descendant of one of their Priests at the Gordon Square Church upon which he gave my daughter and myself a wonderful guided tour of the Church but no photographs allowed.
A truly magnificent building kept in pristine condition rivalling the most elaborate Cathedrals in any city in England.
Except the rear wall of the building was finished with what appears to be ordinary house bricks,out of site unless pointed out but quite out of keeping with the ornate brickwork of the rest of the Church.
This was explained as the work to be completed upon His Second Coming.
The Secretary then took us to his office where he provided an original copy of Caroline's marriage certificate and really interested in the fact that this was the first record of a marriage at the Church in 1854.He also stated that many records and publications existed downstairs in the vaults but could not allows us access to those at that time.

Now the amazing bit !!

Upon return to Wolverhampton after a very constructive and fulfilling visit my daughter went round to see her grandfather (My ex-father in law)to tell him where we had been.He is aged 94 and revealed to the astonishment of all present, including my ex-wife ,that he ,at 94, was the oldest surviving member of the Apostolic Church in England and still receives publications from the Gordon Square Church Trustees .He was a regular attendee at the Bath Road Wolverhampton Church in his younger days,
And I never knew.

Hope this was of interest to someone and have found the above posts tremendously useful in my research about the Catholic and Apostolic Church

Thanks to all
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Columbus, and welcome aboard!

Sounds as though your (ex)father-in-law has some happy memories of the Catholic Apostolic Church - I hope so! Might he be persuaded to make some sort of record of them?

Like you, I found the C-A authorities distinctly cagey when I approached them many years ago regarding a possible visit to the Maida Vale church.

Once they realised that I was 'researching' purely for my own edification and had no intention of publishing anything (hmmm.... - does this thread count?), they could not have been more helpful. They still seem to eschew any kind of publicity, however sympathetic it may be towards them.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Colombus (# 8946) on :
 
Thanks for the welcome Bishop's Finger,

I forgot to add that at the end of the visit to the Gordon Square Church I was given a paperback titled " Albury and The Catholic Apostolic Church " by G.L.Standring, a guide to the Personalities,Beliefs and Practices of the Community of Christians commonly called The Catholic Apostolic Church 1985
Published by G L Standring
42 Albury Park
Albury
Guildford
Surrey
GU5 9BB

A very complete and interesting volume covering most of the questions asked in previous posts.
Including description and history of the Seven Churches in London.

I would recommend a visit to the Gordon Square Church most highly and to enjoy an organ recital in those wonderful surroundings is top on my list of to do's this year
An idea of the importance of this Church can be found in the book as it was to be called The Bloomsbury Cathedral had it been finished with a most impressive 300 ft tower and spire

Hope this has been of interest
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I also have a copy of Mr. Standring's book - I believe he wrote it as part of his study course to become a C of E Lay Reader, and it is indeed most informative.

By the way, I have been informed that there is to be a 20-minute programme called 'A Legacy of Angels' about the Catholic Apostolic Church (specifically, I understand, the church building in Edinburgh) on BBC Radio 3 at about 20.50 on Sunday 16th January. This will be broadcast during the interval in the James Macmillan concert, and participants include Fr. Columba Flegg (the historian), Colin Scott-Sutherland (a former member of the congregation) and Ann Ellis and Elizabeth Cummings (art historians - the church is famous for its murals depicting angels).

Kindly Hosts, I do hope this doesn't count as advertising - I am in no way connected with the programme, but just want to draw the attention of any interested shipmates to it!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Sorry - I forgot to mention that the programme will also include some Catholic Apostolic music (written especially for the Edinburgh church) which will be performed by the choir of St. Mary's Cathedral.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I've just listened to the programme mentioned above, and found it most interesting. The murals in the Edinburgh church sound absolutely breathtaking, and the full Sung Eucharist there must have been a most moving experience. The C-A music which accompanied the broadcast sounded beautiful as well, and served to emphasise, perhaps, what we have lost in terms of liturgy by the church's decline.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Fifi (# 8151) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The murals in the Edinburgh church sound absolutely breathtaking

You can see them here.
 
Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Oh, stupid woman. I meant to listen to last night's broadcast, and then completely forgot about it until I saw the thread this morning. It doesn't seem to be available on the BBC website, either.

Does anyone know if there are any recordings of the music available, or were there just excerpts specially recorded for the broadcast?
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Oh drat and fiddlesticks, I only just saw this, one day too late.

What was the C-A music like? Just settings of the Ordinary written for their use, or was there hymnody as well?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I understand that the music recorded for this programme is on a CD produced by the Mansfield Traquair Trust (who are responsible for conservation of the murals), so I'm writing to them to see if I can obtain one. I believe it's only 15 minutes' worth.

The choral music was used as 'background' to some of the broadcast, so it was a little difficult to work out exactly what it was! Sounded good, though - it was neither plainsong nor Anglican chant, and was a bit hard to place......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Thank you, Ian - that information, and looking at the murals on the website, has made me a bit less cross with myself!
 
Posted by Peripatekos (# 8992) on :
 
Hi all,

I recently googled this thread about the Cath Apostolic Church and as this has been the subject of my interest for the past 20 years, I hope I may join you & give some answers to questions that have been posed, maybe also ask some fresh questions…

=====

Pax Britannica wrote (long ago):
"And what does Anson in “Bishops at Large” say of them?"

Nothing. The CAC is not mentioned in this book, because its entirely different origins. It has no connection to the Wild Bishops (episcopi vagantes).

I also saw some remarks concerning the New Apostolic Church. This church is the result of a split-off from the Hamburg CAC congregation from the mother body. A from the English CAC Apostles excommunicated Prophet (Heinrich Geyer) called a new (German) Apostle (oct 1862). The Hamburg CAC congregation accepted this new Apostle, the English Apostles did not. The English Apostles declared what happened in Hamburg as "the Devil's work" and excommunicated all those who followed the new German Apostle. This break-away group eventually called itself "New Apostolic Church".

Major differences between the two groups:
CAC: high church liturgy. NAC: protestant liturgy.
CAC: oecumenical doctrine. NAC: sectarian, exclusivist doctrine.

The CAC Liturgy book and the Hymn book are hard to find. I managed to buy a copy of "Hymns for the use of the Churches" some time ago, but it was the first copy I have seen for sale on the internet in 10 years!!!

=====

Several persons have mentioned the CAC church at Maida Avenue. As far as I know it is the only CAC church building in the UK that is still owned by the CAC and in use as such. Why that is the case, I don't know. All other churches have been closed after the death of the last Priest or Deacon, but Paddington seems to be the exception. The last surviving CAC Priest (worldwide, I think) resided in Paddington. I think I have seen his name mentioned, Wilfred Maynard Davson. Maybe he has given instructions to the Subdeacons or Layhelps to keep the church open?

Bishops Finger listed the CAC churches in London:
Gordon Square; Maida Vale; Mare Street, Hackney (became Greek Orthodox many years ago); New Road, Camberwell (now Greek Orthodox); Elyston Street, Chelsea (bombed in WW2); Abbey Orchard Street, Westminster (became Roman Catholic - I remember it from about 30 years ago, but I believe it has been demolished); Duncan Street, Islington (present status not known!).

The Westminster Church has been closed and demolished long ago (1960s, I think). The Islington church is gone as well. The Southwark church (Camberwell New Road) was bombed and damaged in WW II. After the war it was repaired and partially rebuilt. The building as it stands now has only 2/3 of the length it had before the war.

Beside these 7 congregations, there were also so-called "Horn churches" (not wholly independent congregations, were "under" another congregation). I know of one in Wood Green (I think the building has been demolished) and there was at least one other Horn church. These two are probably the "Gordon House Highgate" and the "Gloucester Road Islington" churches aumbry mentioned in one of his posts.

An incredibly rich collection of pictures of CAC church buildings (exterior and interior) and ministers can be found in the following (bi-lingual: German/English) book:
http://home.t-online.de/home/03641442918-0001/schroeter.htm

The author is Mr. J.A. Schroeter, who several years earlier wrote a book (in German) on the Hamburg schism and the role of the Prophet Geyer (NAC split-off from CAC, see above):
http://www.tectum-verlag.de/8724text.htm

(This is no advertising, I am neither connected to Mr. Schroeter nor get a percentage of every sold book)

=====

Pax Britannica wrote:
"My 1905 Harmsworth Encyclopaedia reports "50,000 communicants, mostly in Britain".

The number of members in Germany far outnumbered those in Britain. Around 1900 there were over 250 congregations in the "tribe" (CAC Apostles divided Christianity in twelve "tribes") of Northern Germany alone. The Berlin CAC Central Church (Wilmsstrasse) was the only CAC church worldwide that was "fully developed", i.e. had sufficient servants to be able to completely perform the Liturgy in its ideal form. See the post of leo:
"Re- the idea of having a service, I doubt whether you could muster enough personnel. According to Peter Anson's Fashions in Church Furnishings (Faith press 1960) pp. 107-114, you need 64 ministers. The celebrant is known as an angel His vestments are always white (except for black on Good Friday). he is assisted by 6 elders, 6 prophets, 6 evangelists, 6 pastors and 7 deacons, each with their own acolytes. Also under-deacons, deaconnesses and lay assistants in various coloured cassocks and buskins (slippers)".

I can provide some numbers of congregations from a 1900 CAC church address book, if that's of interest to you.

=====

Bonaventure wrote about the Catholic Apostolics in Oslo. In its heydays (late 19th/beginning 20th century) the CAC had 10 congregations in Norway, of which Oslo, Drammen and Bergen had Angels. The other congregations (e.g. Stavanger, Larvik) were smaller, had Priests or Deacons only.

Denmark has been a much more "fruitful" country, with at least 50 CAC congregations around the turn of the century (19th/20th).

=====

Columbus, in case you read this: could you PLEASE send me a private message?

=====

Aumbrey wrote:
"There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?"

I was in Bath in 2000 and checked out the address 20, Vineyards. Yes, the church still stands. Taking a picture of the front is hardly possible, but you can photograph the back easier. It was a Kingdom Hall of the Jehovah's Witnesses: not exactly the kind of Christianity the Apostles would have approved of…

=====

For those who want to Mystery Worship a CAC service (rather, a Litany): in Germany and Holland are still CAC congregations that hold services regularly.

=====

Thanks for your patience :-)
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Peripatekos, for the links (and welcome aboard the Ship!).

I was interested to learn that C-A congregations still meet for the Litany in Holland and Germany - a congregation was meeting each week for such a service at the Maida Vale Church in 1987, but does so no longer, it appears.

I think others have mentioned on this thread that the Gordon Square Church is also still owned by the C-A authorities (their administrative offices are there), but the church itself (or at least the English Chapel) is used regularly by the Forward-in-Faith movement of the C of E.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Bonaventura (# 5561) on :
 
Thank Peripatekos, and welcome to the ship.

An angel would have looked like this in full vestments. Are any of you familiar with what the tat of an apostle would have been?
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Hallo all

As a brand new sailor (as of today, still finding my way around, hoping I won't get seasick) I have been fascinated by this long thread. I was born (1942) & brought up as a CAC member, and together with my family, regularly attended Camberwell Church in SE London. (NB Manda: this is the one you meant... [Smile] )

I would like to try and respond to a just a (random) few of the points that have jumped out from the many detailed posts – too many to digest in one quick read.

I can confirm that when Camberwell Church closed, members were directed to attend their local CoE. We as a family were communally confirmed into our local CoE, though we had all taken Holy Communion regularly since babyhood within the CAC.

We all had our own copies of the liturgy and my own very battered one is on my shelves here. Slipped between the pages is the special little bookmark we made for it, which consists of four coloured ribbons, each being one of the four liturgical colours, sewn together at one end with a small hanging gold cross. These strong colours with their various symbolic meanings have been important for me ever since.

My memories of the church and services are very strong. On Sundays we attended Morning Service, which was followed immediately by Holy Eucharist – everyone attended both as a matter of course. We all paid our tithe – put into the correct box as we entered the church. In the children's case, this was the carefully worked out 10% of our meagre pocket money. Once a month in the afternoon there was Sunday School, held in the bare and dusty upstairs room at the street end of the church – the centre part had been bombed in WW2, as has been mentioned, and at that time, was open and untidy, though I think it's now a pleasant garden area. We S/S children were given "tea" before Evening Service, which came straight afterwards.

Sorry, this next bit's OT: ... oh, the memory of those post Sunday School teas in that room ... sandwiches with the Enormous Treat of "real" shop-bought jam – unheard of in our home-cooked-food family, and at the time when Britain was just emerging from wartime rationing. Just that thin red scrape allocated to each sandwich was absolutely enough to make me look forward to S/S!)

On Wednesdays, my father went to the evening Litany, though I can't remember ever going to that. On Saturdays we often went to clean the church brass – the beautiful lectern eagle, the communion rail, and lots of bits and pieces around the altar and in the pulpit. I found that very enjoyable, being able to get close up to and handle the objects we were very familiar with from a distance.

All the women wore a hat in church as a matter of course, and I still feel uncomfortable now entering a church without one. We were taught that a woman's hair was her “crowning glory” and as such would be a distraction to others and must be covered when in God's house.

We heard words of prophecy often, but though these were fairly common, they were always treated as very special occasions, and those in the congregation who knew shorthand would carefully try and record what was said.

Though we didn't appreciate it then, the standard of the choir and hymn singing was very good. We sang with great and enjoyable gusto – when we moved to the CoE, the apologetic whisperings of the hymns came as rather a shock. I still miss the CAC singing.

We were taught very carefully and diligently, by my father and by our appointed family deacon who visited regularly to make sure this was going on in proper fashion. What we were taught is for another time

Just one other point for now: the recent Radio 3 Edinburgh programme seemed excellent, though I was washing my hair at the time ... and definitely need to listen again properly to the recording we made. Columba gave a very fair and balanced brief introduction. I have a copy of his "Gathered Under Apostles" which is CERTAINLY well worth reading for those interested.

Stranding
 
Posted by Friar (# 9025) on :
 
I've enjoyed this thread enough to join SoF and contribute my own halfpennyworth or three...

1. My reminiscences of a Cath. Ap. friend.
2. (One of?) their church(es?) in Melbourne.
3. Their Liturgy (1848 edition).

1. A deceased friend of mine, one Derek Stone, grew up in Melbourne (Australia) in the Cath. Ap. Church and was quite a character in his own right - after the dying out of his local CA clergy, he became Anglican (as did many Cath. Ap. Churchmen), but then Orthodox, was excommunicated by the Gk Bp of Australia for 'attempting to introduce the Charismatic Renewal into Orthodoxy' (!), and undeterred got permission from the Catholic Abp of Hobart (Tasmania - where he lived latterly) to receive H. Communion (he was still technically Orthodox but deprived of their sacraments, while his wife was Catholic and so too the 10 or so offspring), and had done so even daily for 20 or 30 years before unexpectedly dropping dead of a heart attack a few years ago. Requiescat in pace, Derek!

Woe betide anyone who got him onto a favourite topic, such as tithing (big CAC influence here), the desirability of hordes of "deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, lectors and exorcists" (ditto - imagine the scene at St Joseph's, Hobart, when he prayed for this extempore during Mass one weekday!), Christian unity (ditto), Eastern Rites (ditto), Charismatic gifts (ditto), Exorcism and the activity of demons(ditto), Marian apparitions (NOT CAC! - perhaps from his devout wife Bridget?), etc. ad infinitum. That man could out-talk nearly anyone. From what I've read in the thread, many of his concerns are not uncharacteristic of those formerly members of the CAC.

He grew up in a pretty tough part of Melbourne during the Depression, in Fitzroy, within walking distance of the CAC church. He loved the liturgy (of whichever Church he attended; I recall him holding forth about a Coptic Liturgy he joined in - "Take off your shoes!" the deacon had shouted as he approached for Communion) and had clearly been brought up according to a very exacting moral and doctrinal standard, which came I guess from the CAC he knew as a boy.

(With his own large family he kept a similarly high standard according to his lights, inculcating swathes of doctrine and with patriarchal gravitas summoning the wife and children to family prayers at 7 am daily with a bell, by which the neighbour set his watch. Without batting an eye he told me how at one time Bridget stayed away from family prayers, upon which his comment was "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft," quoting 1 Sam 15:23 verbatim and clearly meaning it!)

2. Derek told me to take a look at his old church, just north of the Melbourne CBD in Queensbury St, Carlton - it's now used by the Romanian Orthodox, but it's still owned by the local trustees of the CAC, all very old I'm told, unsurprisingly. Alas, I haven't seen inside, nor, until finding this thread, did I know how much I have for ever missed out on by not asking Derek a few years ago to describe the church services of his youth.

Derek told me that on a return visit to Melbourne he found that the unsuspecting trustees of the Carlton CAC church had let a group called the Metropolitan Church use the premises - he explained to the trustees that they might not perhaps agree with certain tenets of that body, to which he drew their attention, and thereupon they decided to lease the church building to the Romanians instead. From the outside, which is all I've ever seen of it, it seems the Romanians have redecorated, with two outdoor icons of SS Peter and Paul affixed to the streetfront of the building, which is a small unpretentious structure.

3. Just a few days ago, for AUS$3 (!) I bought a very fine copy of "The Liturgy and Other Divine Offices of The Church." Montreal: Lovell and Gibson. No date, but from a rubric on p. xxvii explaining that the psalms for Sat 1 Jan 1848 are Pss 22ff, it must have been published about that time. I think that the bookshop didn't realize how rare this item must be, but then again 19th C. Canadian imprints of defunct liturgies probably aren't major sources of income for them. Supply would be low, but so too demand.

I must say from the text - alas, the rubrics are so sparse little can be told of the ceremonial - it seems a very well arranged liturgy, and startlingly so for 1842 for men coming out of contemporary Anglicanism and Presbyterianism. The only bizarre aspect of it is the position of the Pater noster - after the Sanctus, and before the Consecration! Perhaps (cf. Lutheran agendae) in reference to the petition for "our daily bread?" The theology expressed seems Puseyite to me, if he had dared to write his own rite, or rather, like the efforts of the Non-Jurors, or better, of those other 18th C. writers who composed their own rites a la the Apostolic Constitutions, although they had Arian not Pentecostalist leanings! All very much "Primitive Church" High Church nostalgia and reconstruction, in Cranmerian style.

The book seems to be in transition toward a more liturgically-knowledgeable position from a less liturgically-minded one. (For instance, the Collects vary seasonally, not daily.) The Kalendar is, I think, perhaps based on Wesley's adaptation of the BCP: there are Advent Sundays, and Xmas Eve and Day, and the Circumcision, but no Epiphany (?), and 7 Sundays 'after Xmas'. Next come Septua-, Sexa- and Quinquagesima, but no Lent, instead "Quadragesima Sunday" and Sundays after Quad. until that next before Easter, then Good Fri. - with a very fulsome Missa Praesanctificata and communion from the reserved species - and Easter Eve and Day, Sundays after Easter, Ascension Day, Pentecost Eve and Day - the former very interesting, with long penitential devotions expressing the Cath. Ap. view of the quenching of the Spirit in the early centuries by sinful Christians and his revivifying the Church only in the 19th C. - and the usual Sundays after Pent. Only two other feasts: Candlemas (sans candelis) and All Saints (with heavy emphasis on the multifarious ranks of the Cath. Ap. ministry). The volume is very winning and adaptable for private devotions...

All in all I must thank previous contributors for this engrossing thread, and would welcome questions if only I can help answer them.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks to stranding and Friar for your fascinating contributions to this thread (which has been far longer and fuller than I anticipated when I started it!).

Friar, your edition of the Liturgy is about forty years older than mine, and does indeed represent an evolving scheme of things. Interestingly, though, the seasonal rather than weekly variation of the Collects became the norm.

I do hope that our Sainted Hosts will retain this thread when the pending changes to the boards take place....... [Overused]

Ian J.
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
I thought I had better pinch myself to see if I still exist - being "CAC" is something that only runs in families, and families do not so often "die out". My family can trace back its CAC ancestry 5 generations so far, and the same is true for other families that are familiar from my childhood (we were also based at Camberwell!)
I confirm that the Maida Vale church still holds weekly prayer meetings each Sunday, and members come from quite a wide area to attend.
For most of its history, the hierachical priestly structure has had a very strong control on the members. Incidently my feeling is that it is this control structure that enabled the charismatic element to be maintained in such an astonishing way also. When the priests were no longer around the instruction was for each to "go it alone", it was up to each to "follow their own path."
As far as I am concerned, it is up to me to interpret CAC teaching for myself (just like biblical teaching really), including those concerning "the time of silence"
I would like to think that my beliefs and spiritual needs could be respected as much as any other CAC - consequently I would like to see open access to the beautiful Albury church and Gordon Square and to the records currently held under trust by a very small minority.
They are too good to be lost.
Sorry about this rant.
Do the rules allow this kind of post or not? [Frown]
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
The rules are applied with a certain amount of discretion. If you cross the line, you'll get a warning.

As long as you're contributing to the thread topic, a certain amount of ranting/critiquing is OK. Just don't completely de-rail the discussion. A full-blown hissy-fit rant would belong in Hell. A debate about whether a particular group is doing their job properly would go to Purgatory.

jlg, MW Host

[ 30. January 2005, 14:23: Message edited by: jlg ]
 
Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Peripatekos:

Aumbrey wrote:
"There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?"

Oooohh - we passed that place on the Bath Shipmeet and we had a discussion about it! We thought it may have been Seventh Day Adventist before becoming a JW Hall and now it is some kind of storage place for UVPC windows me thinks!

-103
 
Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
Blueflash, the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around??? Or what if they choose not to?


Just wondering

I'll try and read the Columba Fleck book at some point.
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
quote:
Blueflash, the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around??? Or what if they choose not to?
If they choose not to, that's fine, no problem. I hope we live in a more enlightened age where its easier for kids to choose their own way. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
And if they haven't had any contact with it and don't know anything about it?? I'm just wondering how that squares with it not dying out?


[tangent]
though of course some of the 'kids' value their own nice Anglican tradition [/tangent]
 
Posted by Peripatekos (# 8992) on :
 
Thanks Stranding, Friar, Blueflash, for the VERY interesting flash-backs you've been providing! I have been fascinated by the CAC ever since I came to know about her history (20 years ago) and started collecting books by CA authors.

Much of what you told about the CA services is still exactly so maintained in Germany and the Netherlands. I have visited a couple of CA prayer meetings, and the first thing that struck me as odd were the hats and scarfs the women/girls wore...

Stranding: "We heard words of prophecy often, but though these were fairly common, they were always treated as very special occasions, and those in the congregation who knew shorthand would carefully try and record what was said."

What years are you talking about? And were there specially reserved "spots" in the meetings where these words were allowed to be uttered?
Wasn't this recording in shorthand discouraged? Since there were no offices anymore that had the capacity of checking these utterances?

Blueflash: "I confirm that the Maida Vale church still holds weekly prayer meetings each Sunday, and members come from quite a wide area to attend"

Do you know why the Maida Vale church is still open, holding meetings and has not followed the example of all other congregations, e.g. selling/donating the church to another denomination?

My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies. I do have a first edition of 1843 (well, not really the first, because I think there was a preliminary edition in 1842, which was only used in Albury - does someone know for sure?). The most recent English Liturgy I have is from the 1920's.
German CA Liturgies are still (!) being reprinted. I have a German Liturgy from 1967 and another one which is even more recent, the 1980s I think.

(small off-topic) I don't have a Canadian Liturgy, though, so if you are thinking of selling your copy, Friar, I assure you that I can give you a nice profit [Smile]
And if one of you has other books related to the CAC and don't know what to do with them... You can always contact me via PM (/small off-topic)

Peripatekos

[ 02. February 2005, 11:14: Message edited by: Peripatekos ]
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Manda wrote:
quote:
the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around???
That's a difficult one to answer briefly. For faithful CAC members, the fact that the last of the ordained clergy have now died and most of the churches closed does not mean that the Church has "failed". The primary hopes and prayers of the faithful members are (still are, now) that Christ's return will take place soon, but at the time of His own choice – the exact time is not for us to know or try and predict exactly. Reading Columba Flegg's book will help your understanding of this "time of silence".

Bishop’s Finger wrote earlier:
quote:
(CAC members) think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them …
Yes, this is exactly the case.
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Peripatekos wrote:
quote:
... words of prophecy ...
What years are you talking about?

As far as I know, from when services started, long before I was born and baptised in 1942, until the church services ceased at Camberwell. There is a bit of uncertainty about when that was – I was away at college during that time, perhaps in 1961 or 1963.

quote:
And were there specially reserved "spots" in the meetings where these words were allowed to be uttered?
Yes. I am not completely sure about "rules" (if there were any about this) but I think it was usually sometime between the consecration before communion and the administration. I think I can remember it once during communion itself, but not at all certain on that.

quote:
Wasn't this recording in shorthand discouraged?
I don't really know. I can remember the rather electric atmosphere during prophecy and watching the shorthand being taken by the usual familiar member of the choir. There would be no comments about it during the service but afterwards there would be a quiet buzz of exchanges between members about the translation and meaning. My mathematical father was scholarly and knew a fair bit of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and there were several more who would compare notes together by talking or in correspondence.

Prophecy was accepted very seriously, but I think I'm right in saying it was considered as an "added extra" to the important point of the gathering which was of course worship. I was most impressed by what we were told – that prophecy was the Word of the Holy Spirit, spoken through a member of the congregation. But I was also equally interested in the mysterious shorthand squiggles in the notebook, when we could get a look at it.

quote:
Do you know why the Maida Vale church is still open, holding meetings and has not followed the example of all other congregations, e.g. selling/donating the church to another denomination?

Blueflash may know more but my understanding is that it came about because of a difference of interpretation of the directives.

quote:
My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies...
That's very interesting. I have searched through my own Liturgy and can find no dates at all except "1879" added at the end of the preface to the Book of Psalms. It was printed at the Chiswick Press in London, and all (ie the offices and various tables, the psalms and the hymns) bound into one volume.

Incidentally, under the main psalms title, there is the subtitle "Pointed in accordance with the twelve ancient tones". The writer of the preface makes it clear that the pointing in this edition has been decided after "many valuable suggestions" were submitted on "specimen sheets". It ends with:
"... the work is not issued by authority, but is to be regarded as a private endeavour to meet a widely-felt want"
And: "...that ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God" (original italics).

I presume "pointing" may be very familiar to liturgical and musical scholars, but as an ordinary young church member, I found it odd and fascinating to use, and it certainly made singing psalms communally easier. In other words, the congregation (and Camberwell's harmonium player) all knew when to go up and down together confidently – no need for anyone to mumble though uncertainly.
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
I would like to pick up several quotes from earlier:

Bishop’s Finger wrote:

quote:
I'm not surprised to hear Father Gregory's remarks about C-As being gently directed towards the C of E etc. as their own clergy departed. It chimes in with their view of themselves as not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.
And:
quote:
…learnt a great deal about this sect.
And Pax Britannica wrote:
quote:
While perhaps not being heretical they were (are?) nonetheless regarded as schismatic by the Established Church.
From the outside, the CAC may have appeared, and appear still (to some) to be a “sect” and be referred to as such. But those within the Church were taught emphatically that that it was not a "breaking away". Rather the opposite – that the Church was a coming together, or restoration of the full Apostolic Church, whose members were gathered from a very wide variety of Christian branches. Hence the carefully chosen name: Catholic (as in universal) and Apostolic (of Apostles). In the same way, sections of the CAC Liturgy were chosen to be included from a wide variety of forms of Christian worship.

Bishop’s Finger also wrote earlier:
quote:
The C-A Liturgy seems to leave very little room for 'extemporare' prayer.
I don’t remember any occasion when an 'extemporare' prayer was used. There are prayers for a great many occasions within my own Liturgy.

A few more general memories:

As well as our weekly tithe, we also gave an offering, which went into another box marked "Offerings" at the entrance. We were not allowed to put anything but silver into this one (and I presume gold would have been OK too). Bronze or nickel was not considered good enough for God, so no (old) pennies or threepenny bits though I don't have any memories about paper money, since I never had any of that then. I don't know if this was a generally accepted thing within the church or if just our family rule. There was also (if I remember right) another box marked "For the poor". We didn't ever have any sort of offering plate or bag that was passed round the congregation during a hymn, or left to be filled at the end of the service.

Near the offertory boxes there was also the small stone stoup with blessed water for signing a forehead cross on entering. We never genuflected but were taught always to face the altar and bow our heads when passing in front of it.

NB: To repeat what has already been mentioned earlier in this thread: for those interested, Gordon Square Church has monthly lunchtime concerts on the last Friday in the month at 1.10pm. There is one tomorrow 4th February and the next on 4th March. Open to all comers. There are notices requesting no applause and no photography allowed.
 
Posted by Friar (# 9025) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Peripatekos:

My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies. I do have a first edition of 1843 (well, not really the first, because I think there was a preliminary edition in 1842, which was only used in Albury - does someone know for sure?). The most recent English Liturgy I have is from the 1920's.

(small off-topic) I don't have a Canadian Liturgy, though, so if you are thinking of selling your copy, Friar, I assure you that I can give you a nice profit [Smile]

Peripatekos:

Alas, I won't be offering my Canadian imprint for sale, as it's unlikely I would ever find another one, but would be most happy to answer any queries about it and its contents... I would very much like to know in what respect it differs from the later versions of the Liturgy of the CAC.

A few days ago, I made a trip across Melbourne by tram to visit the Joint Theology Library at Ormond College, where I was able to find Columba Flegg's book. I don't have borrowing rights there, so I read as much as I could in an hour or so, and mean to go back there to read more and do some photocopying. From what I could tell from his book, the main changes made to the Liturgy since my edition was printed were the addition of:

(1) "Proposition" [sic] of the sacramental species upon the altar at Morning & Evening Prayer, i.e. the consecrated elements, veiled, were taken out of the tabernacle - the CAC's reserved both species, which is I think otherwise unparalleled (the Orthodox reserve the intincted host, but not the two species separately), tho' I did once see it done at a very odd Mass - and this act was accompanied by a prayer sotto voce (dictated via prophecy, as was the act itself, apparently!), which expressed the belief that the prayers next offered were thereby made in and through Christ glorified in heaven and yet present sub speciebus Eucharisticis. This united the long prayers at MP & EP to the post-consecration intercessions for the living and dead at the Eucharistic Liturgy. (Something similar had already been done each Good Friday at the Missa praesanctificatorum prior to this act being introduiced, according to my copy of the CAC liturgy.) Apparently the Eucharistic Liturgy was only offered on Sundays and the few feasts kept by the CAC, and the daily offices of MP & EP were thus united to the sacrificial oblation of the Eucharist by this expedient.

(2) Thereupon the "Incense Anthem" was sung, and incense offered. (The elements were not incensed, rather incense was burnt in standing 'braziers' - I don't suppose you would call such items thuribles.)

(3) After the Consecration at the Eucharistic Liturgy, incense was offered in the same manner.

However... according to Flegg's book, once the last CAC Apostle died in 1901, the splendour of the liturgy was curtailed, and in particular the offices of MP and EP were no longer celebrated (the shorter and simpler offices of the Forenoon and Afternoon Services remained in use, and on Sundays these approximated in form to MP and EP, without "Proposition" etc.) and incense was no longer used at all. If my interpretation of Flegg is correct, no one now alive would ever have seen the above rituals carried out, as they haven't occurred since 1901.

Friar.

[edited to fix quote code]

[ 04. February 2005, 15:19: Message edited by: jlg ]
 
Posted by Carilloneur (# 8279) on :
 
Just to clarify Stranding's fascinating post - the organ recitals at the Gordon Square church are actually on the first Friday of each month.
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
quote:
Just to clarify Stranding's fascinating post - the organ recitals at the Gordon Square church are actually on the first Friday of each month.
Many thanks Carrilloneur for picking up that error – I obviously don't know my alphas from my omegas. Sorry for confusion.
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
An amazingly interesting thread! But did you know that Irving and the CAC are also the proto-Zionist fore-runners of the Plymouth Brethren and other Dispensational Christian movements? Here is a link to an article about Edward Irving's famous treatise called Babylon and Infidelity Foredoomed.

The CAC apparenetly emerged from the Albury Prophetic Conference hosted by Henry Drummond a woman called Lady Powerscourt at Albury House.

Irving, apparently, was convined that the Gentile Church was totally apostate and Drummond was convinced that the CAC would effect a return to the true Jewish origins of the Christian Church (hence the tabernacle/temple symbolism in their liturgical worship). The CAC was formed in the belief that the Catholic Church was apostate and anti-semitic.

According to author Stephen Sizer, 'On the first day of Advent in 1826, Henry Drummond (1786-1860), a city banker, politician, and High Sheriff of Surrey (and the first Apostle in the CAC!!), opened his home at Albury Park to a select group of some twenty invited guests to form a Prophetic Parliament and discuss matters concerning the immediate fulfilment of prophecy. The CAC was formed at this meeting along with a group called, 'The School of the Prophets'.

The plot thickens...
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
Whoops! That should read '...Drummond and a woman...'. [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
To try and give my understanding of some of the points raise, although I have only been researching it properly for five years:

The religious environment that Irving, Drummond, Derby and Powerscourt were all a part of around 1830ish was getting into "signs of the times", prophesy, and the second coming. At an early stage people like Irving were mixing with Derby. In time the views of individuals separated out. Irving and Drummond held the Albury Conferences very year for 3 years in Surrey.
Derby was involved with the Powerscourt Conferences in Ireland which eventually led to the Brethren, quite separate from the Irvingites, as they were then called.
The Albury Conferences were quite large, hardworking affairs, there are lists of the people who attended.

Re Maida Vale. I think the last priest at Maida Vale (Paddington) decided to carry on when others had been told to close down. For me its an interesting example of the tensions existing in the "body" between authority and schism, that characterise its history, right from the beginning. Once the final apostle died, who was to decide who has the authority?
It needs to be understood that to them God was inseparable from authority, and the principle of democracy was seen as a smokescreen behind which "Satan" can work.

Maida Vale is also set up now under a separate charity to Gordon Square.
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
Another point, each of the 12 apostles was given a "tribe" for their jurisdiction, a geographical area over which they ruled (mostly in Europe). It was considered that each country or area has its own spiritual characteristics and these were to be celebrated. Most of the history I have seen has been about the English Church, under the Apostle Cardale the lawyer.
The danish CAC seems to have quite different characteristics and they dont believe in secrecy.
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Blueflash:

Darby was involved with the Powerscourt Conferences in Ireland which eventually led to the Brethren, quite separate from the Irvingites, as they were then called.

Yes, but I am aware, however, that the Brethren subsequently distanced themselves from associations with the CAC as it developed its liturgy and ecclesiology. This article by Brethren minister William Kelly, (which you've no doubt read during your extensive research), desribes the ordination of CAC Apostles in detail and by implication suggests that Brethrenism and the CAC were aware of each other, shared similar eschatological views, but differed greatly in terms of their ecclesiology.
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
I'm sorry. This article by William Kelly.
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
Thank you M.T. Succinctly put, and a very comprehensive reference.
I don't pretend to any proper theological research, I'm just a magpie searching for what I need.
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Geneva Gown ON
This thread is veering off into deeper theological and historical discussions that would be better taken up in Purgatory. Please take them there.
Geneva Gown OFF
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
I was taken round inside Albury Church about 2-3 years ago, and found it all most beautiful. More of the size of a "parish church" than the cavernous interior of Gordon Square, and more friendly. Everything is of the highest quality construction and well cared for and kept exactly as original. There are beautiful colourful windows and intricate painted patterns on the wall.
At the rear of the church there is a confessional, symbolising that they considered Roman Catholics as part of the one Church. However the penitent has space to sit (or whatever) inside, and the confessor sits outside.
To one side of the Church and ajoining is the Chapter House where the Apostles had their deliberations and a "scribe" recorded them.
On the other side are modest but elegant rooms with desks and chairs, where the visitor's book is kept.
The only thing lacking is a guide to the history, furniture and rich symbolism.

[Angel]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
A while ago now, I mentioned on this thread that a short programme on Radio 3 (on 16 January) would look at some of the history of the former Catholic Apostolic Church in Edinburgh, famous for its Arts and Crafts murals.

A short CD featuring music written for the Church is now available from the Friends of the Mansfield Traquair Centre, as the Church is now known. Details are on their website:

http://www.mansfieldtraquair.org.uk/index.htm

Click on the links to 'A Legacy of Angels'. A link is also provided to the BBC website if you want to listen to the broadcast itself - the music is used only as a background to this.

The CD consists of 5 choral pieces (Communion Anthem, Agnus Dei, Incense Anthem, Great Introit and Sanctus - these latter two are absolutely beautiful) and a short organ piece (Allegretto - perhaps a postlude?). It gives a brief and tantalising taste of what, to me, sounds like a rather different type of liturgical music, and perhaps shows how much the Christian world may have lost with the decline of this body.......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
I ordered a copy of the CD a little while ago and it arrived yesterday. I agree with Ian, it's beautiful stuff and well worth listening to, quite apart from its historical interest.

It's started me wondering if it's possible to track down any of the music in published form - it seems a terrible shame to leave most of it in complete obscurity.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Indeed yes - the CD, as I said, provides a tantalising glimpse into the Catholic Apostolic liturgy, and I for one would love to hear a setting of the Gloria in Excelsis, the Anthem between Epistle and Gospel, and also the Te Deum (which concluded the full order for the Holy Eucharist on the Lord's Day). I shall make inquiries.......

For those interested, the choral items on the CD were located within the Eucharist as follows:

Communion Anthem - after the reception of communion and before the post-Communion prayers

Agnus Dei and Sanctus (sung in English) - in the usual places!

Incense Anthem - 'at the time of offering the incense' (following the Prayer of Oblation after Consecration and before the intercessions and communion)

Great Introit - after the Offertory 'when the holy vessels with the bread and wine are being placed upon the altar, and the incense lighted....'

The rousing 'Gloria Patri' sung at the end of the Great Introit was also sung at the end of the service, after the Te Deum and before the Benediction. Whilst listening to it (and singing along), I found myself involuntarily raising my hands to heaven........well, this was one of the first 'charismatic' churches!

Ian J.
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Bishop's Finger wrote:
quote:
... CD featuring music written for the Church is now available from the Friends of the Mansfield Traquair Centre...
Thank you for that tip – I'll pass it around to those who will be interested. The taster music on the programme was very good. I'll certainly buy at least one for myself.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Just one word of warning - the CD is only 16 minutes long......but still worth having and listening to!

Ian J.
 
Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Thanks for the warning, but no matter - quality of content and precious rarity value will win over length. It's a reasonably priced CD, after all, and I do have a rather strong interest!

[ 27. February 2005, 14:07: Message edited by: stranding ]
 
Posted by Last Angel (# 8098) on :
 
I've just revisited this thread after a long absence. There's a lot more interesting material here which I'll read later at more leisure.
I remember the Gordon Square church (Christ the King) well: I was sacristan 1973-6 whilst working in London Uni. I visited the Edinburgh church last summer and was thrilled with the murals, and bought the CD: I've tried unsuccessfully to trace other music by these composers (Paul della Torre, Peter Dickson)
Was also interested to read that the Wolverhampton church survives: I've explored that town's Victorian churches and thought it had gone: will go and have a look.
 
Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 
The Apostolic Church of Queensland derives from the CAC. Read its History.
 
Posted by Peripatekos (# 8992) on :
 
To those who are interested:

I saw that Sarum Bookshop, Salisbury, UK has a Cath Ap Liturgy for sale: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=434157896

And there's also a German Cath Ap Liturgy currently on auction on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32689&item=6949184831&rd=1

I'm afraid that for both items you need to have a fat and healthy purse...

Peripatekos
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Over 5.5 million Romanian leu!

£100.00 sterling or $196.40 US dollars!

That's for the Liturgy in English - when I looked, the German version (of 1890) stood at 40.50 Euros, which isn't quite so horrendous.

These prices probably reflect the rarity of the books concerned......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Peripatekos (# 8992) on :
 
Blueflash wrote about his/her (?) recollection of getting taken around in the Cath Ap Church in Albury.

quote:
Originally posted by Blueflash:
I was taken round inside Albury Church about 2-3 years ago, and found it all most beautiful. More of the size of a "parish church" than the cavernous interior of Gordon Square, and more friendly. Everything is of the highest quality construction and well cared for and kept exactly as original. There are beautiful colourful windows and intricate painted patterns on the wall.
(...) To one side of the Church and ajoining is the Chapter House where the Apostles had their deliberations and a "scribe" recorded them.
On the other side are modest but elegant rooms with desks and chairs, where the visitor's book is kept.
The only thing lacking is a guide to the history, furniture and rich symbolism.

I am amazed: is it actually possible to visit the church? I always thought that getting inside Fort Knox would be much easier...
Did you make any pictures from the inside of the church? (If so: Please don't miss the hidden question... [Roll Eyes] )

Who is caretaker of the church? Did you see the library? Any idea whether the original liturgical dresses are still kept?

Yes, a book about the Albury church's history, furniture and symbolism is loooong overdue!

Mr. J.M. Lickfold has written a book "Notes on the architectural features and furniture" (contains many photos) about the Cath Ap Church in Gordon Sq, in 1935. Should someone reading this have a spare copy... (another hidden question [Smile] )

Peripatekos
 
Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
Referring to Peripatekos' questions:

There will always be someone who can get into any Fort Knox if they wear the right badges, carry the right key and know the password. Otherwise what is it there for? [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused]

The caretaker is Mrs Ford, next door. [Overused]

I was requested not to photograph inside (ladies are obviously requested to wear headcoverings also) so I only have photos of outside. [Overused]

There was probably a library in the study, but I would think that most of the books and vestments would be at Gordon Square.

But would you hide your pearl of great price inside or outside a stronghold? [Paranoid]
 


© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0