quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
I believe the Agapemonites had a rather racy history.

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quote:

---

whose extraordinary church still stands in Clapton (London) and is now called the Church of the Good Shepherd. I've always wondered what goes on there. These days it seems to be a sort of spiritualist church.

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Are we back in Nicholson-land? This is the "Ancient Catholic" Cathedral Church of the GS, with smart notice board, armorial bearings, monthly animal blessings, and weekly "address and clairvoyance meeting". Are we in Lower Sloane Street transferred? A grand building, and surely either BF or Aumbry, we can get you to Mystery Worship it for us? Ouija boards at the ready, chaps.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hmm.....thanks, PB - this does sound as though it's worth MWing! I shall have to see what can be done - though I don't think I could stand going to the Animal Blessing Service (dogs....ugh!!! ).

Ian J.

(Apologies to all you dog-loving folks....)
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
The Good Shepherd, which is more on Stamford Hill than Claptonm IIRC, is certainly a weird building from the outside. When I first came across it I was quite taken aback. Bulls and goats and carved animals.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
There are still some cathaps alive - living around Gordon Square because they believe that, at the Second Coming, Christ will descend on to the Bishop's throne in Christ the King and then the whole building, with those inside it, will be assumed into heaven.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
One local guide mentions eagles and bulls round the spire, but fails (of course) to recognise them as symbols of the four evangelists.
So maybe Bro Ken or one of you London shipmates might just pop in and see it and tell us all? The Agapemonites might well have left some loony internal fixtures and architectural details: the Ancient Caths were perhaps more regular CofE in their decor (??) - but they've been there half a century so it should be 'authentick'.

And they must be the successors of Archbishop H.P. Nicholson - Lower Sloane Street (also "Cathedral of the Good Shepherd") was a former Baptist Chapel that was bombed, and they sold in 1956. Clapton/Stamford Hill was bought in 1956. Coincidence? Far grander, though not in PeterJones-land. And looks like the funky liturgy is the same. We may have discovered a liturgical coelacanth here.
 

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Posted by The Undiscovered Country (# 4811) on :
 
In 'Restoring The Kingdom' Andrew Walker details the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church in one of the chapters and cites it as being one of the key theological influences on the British House Church/New Church movement (albeit a mainly unconscious influence)
 

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Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
I've just had a look in Pevsner to see what it has to say about the Cathedral of the Good Shepherd. Upper Clapton it is - do people say Stamford Hill to sound posh? Apparently it was built as the "Arc of the Covenant" for the Agapemonite Sect followers of Henry James Prince. Inside it is said to be heavy with symbolism and has a stunning set of stained glass windows designed by Walter Crane one of which is described as "Righteousness flanked by Sin and Shame and Disease and Death, elongated writhing figures tortured by flames and snakes"

I'd love to go and mystery worship it -but would be too scared. The cat on the notice board is enough to give anyone the willys.

Aumbry
 

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Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Here's apotted history of the Agapemone

http://www.dgbdgb.btinternet.co.uk/clapton/agapemon.htm

Aumbry
 

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Posted by Amphibalus (# 5351) on :
 
When I was at theological college in London during the late 60s, I have a distinct recollection that one of my fellow ordinands was from a Catholic Apostolic family that had been steered towards Anglicanism when their local congregation started dwindling. I believe he has now been elevated to the purple.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Thank you, Aumbry -- I believe the new Pevsner contains this much more detailed information. I have a dispatched a Special Agent to investigate the Clapton Ark - and the Crane windows. His cover will be to inquire (of the current Ancient Caths) whether they do pussy or doggie weddings, and if so whether same-sex unions are also permitted. But maybe one of you London shipmates might do an advance recce?

Alas, the Adullam Chapel, in Brighton (Windsor Street), is I suspect long gone. Parts of the Spaxton complex are apparently on the market at the moment.

[ 27. June 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: Pax Britannica ]
 

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Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
There was a Catholic Apostolic Church in Bristol - but it has now been taken over by the orthodox community (either russian or polish orthodox!)

-103
 

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Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
http://www.cacina.org/

is this the Catholic Apostolic Church - looks pretty much in tact still, even though it only has a few parishes.

-103
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks for the link, 103, but this is a completely different body.

CACINA appears to be of fairly recent origin (1945) and emanates from Brazil, whereas the Catholic Apostolic Church we are referring to on this thread was an British sect originating from the preaching of a Scottish Presbyterian minister called Henry Irving in London in the 1830s.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
The Catholic Apostolic Church still exists and is registered as a charity. I think their last operational church was in Maida Vale and this closed down in the 1980s...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
Well considering the size of some of the London churches and also the fact that most reasonably sized towns appear to have had a church, 50,000 doesn't sound impossible. A very small denomination by Victorian standards even with that number I would have thought and yet in London they have left almost as big a mark architecturally as the Methodists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
I fear that we are living a charmed life on this thread bearing in mind the ruthless way in which the Swedenborgian thread was terminated. But perhaps the Threadmeister has something against Swedish mystics.

Aumbry

---

quote:

---

PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
Well as Leo said earlier in the thread there are still a few C-Aps living around Gordon Square waiting for the end of the world. Presumably they must think there has merely been a mix-up with the dates.

Surely the most bizarre thing is that they went to all the trouble of building such a magnificent cathedral when they believed that everything would be over within a generation.

Aumbry

PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
Presumably they must think there has merely been a mix-up with the dates.

Surely the most bizarre thing is that they went to all the trouble of building such a magnificent cathedral when they believed that everything would be over within a generation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
The Catholic Apostolic Church (Paddington) General Purposes Fund is a registered charity number 245205.

I may be wrong but I suspect this is the body that maintains the church. It is difficult to see how it can qualify for charitable status if the church is not used for religious purposes and the public is denied access to the building.

All very mysterious.

Aumbry

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
...registered charity number 245205.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
They think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them, and this position is, I feel, to be respected.

---

quote:

---

I do like the idea of re-creating a Catholic Apostolic service using their Liturgy.......with Archbishop Rowan taking the place of the Apostle or Angel.....?

I have a sneaking feeling, though, that the C-A authorities would somehow not be taken with the notion. They think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them, and this position is, I feel, to be respected.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
Well has anyone found any C-Ap hymnals yet? I'll try South Ken tomorrow.

---

Hymns for the Use of the Churches seems to have gone through at least nine editions, according to the British Library, and if there were 50,000 communicants one assumes there were once 50,000 copies in existence. But books have a funny habit of completely disappearing.

And maybe Louise could try to get us a special deal on a bulk order of the Flegg book?

PB (ensuring some mention of the buildings and practices of the CAC, and so keeping this fascinating thread within the Ferrettially-directed bounds of MW)
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Ferrettially-directed?
 

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Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
If I ever find that book going cheap I will be sure to let people know after I've bought a copy!

I've just turned up a reference to a copy of Eddis's 'Hymnal' which was owned by W E Gladstone and here is a link to its Preface but that's as close as I have got to it for now.

By the way, I also found this amusing antiquarian book description

quote:

---

Fishing at Home and Abroad (London 1913)MAXWELL, Sir Herbert, editor. Sir Herbert Eustace Maxwell, seventh baronet of Monreith (1845-1937) was one of the most celebrated country sportsmen of his day, and his Fishing at Home and Abroad has become a much sought-after record of the fisherman's art before the Great War... Maxwell's lifelong passion for fishing began at an early age as he helped his father manage the Monreith estate. The editors of the Dictionary of National Biography, however, chide him for a lack of purpose in his early life resulting from 'the religious tenets of his parents. Belonging as they did to the Catholic Apostolic Church, and believing that the Second Advent was imminent, neither they nor their children felt the necessity for planning for the future.' Such circumstances produce great fishermen, it seems.

---

which illustrates the dangers or possibly the advantages of a Catholic Apostolic upbringing.

cheers,
Louise
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Louise's idea of some sort of service of thanksgiving and remembrance for the Catholic Apostolic Church's contribution to Christianity is both moving and appropriate, however difficult it might be to arrange!

AFAIK, the Edinburgh church no longer contains fittings and furnishings, although the splendid murals are being conserved. Given Forward in Faith's use of Christ the King, Gordon Square, this would seem to be a suitable place.......

However.....

Siegfried - I agree that some of the posts on this thread have little to do with liturgy and worship directly, so would it be best to open another thread on All Saints re a possible service for shipmates to attend?

Ian J.
 

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Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Here is the Catholic Encyclopaedias's entry for the C-Ap's.

Bearing in mind that the entry was written in 1900 when the RC's services would have been at their most spectacular its comments about the C Ap's liturgy make them sound sensational (forgive the Tony Blackburnism)particularly as the Cath. Ency. rarely ever says anything encouraging about non-RC churches.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08174a.htm

Aumbry
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Re- the idea of having a service, I doubt whether you could muster enough personnel. According to Peter Anson's Fashions in Church Furnishings (Faith press 1960) pp. 107-114, you need 64 mninisters. The celebrant is known as an angel His vestments are always white (except for black on Good Friday). he is assisted by 6 elders, 6 prophets, 6 evangelists, 6 pastors and 7 deacons, each with their own acolytes. Also under-deacons, deaconnesses and lay assistants in various coloured cassocks and buskins (slippers). Each rank of the hierarchy had its own sacristy in the Dundee church.

Big services also required 12 apostles.

They also need purple and white copes, [plain albes with no lace, gold thread on vestments on Sundays, preachers in full surplices and the occasional use of the rochet instead of the albe.

Thjere must be no candles but, instead, oil lamps in amber or gold glass. Incense was burnt from a standing (not swung) censer.

There must be sufficient chairs for all the priests to hear penitents.

There were 3 levels of choir seats, depending on the importance of the office.

Morning Prayer was at 6 am, Evening Prayer at 5pm. The solemn choral eucharist was at 10am. There was also benediction by ciborium in the early afternoon for any not present at the consecration.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Leo has a very good point about personnel - I doubt whether many C-A churches even in their prime could muster a full complement (though I may, of course, be wrong)!

These figures are, I believe, 'ideal' rather than 'actual', but the Maida Vale Church does indeed have the three levels of choir stalls and the multitude of vestries etc.

Is any other information regarding the Dundee church available - and is it still in existence?

My understanding of Louise's post was that the suggested service should commemorate the C-A Church rather than reproduce its liturgy in detail, although elements of that could perhaps be used.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
As an aside to Leo's remarks about the times of service, the 'Liturgy and other Divine Offices of the Church' actually states the hours at which some of the services are to be held viz.

Morning Prayer 6.00am daily
Forenoon Service 9.00am on weekdays and 10.00am on Sundays
Afternoon Service 3.00pm on weekdays and 2.00pm on Sundays
Evening Prayer 5.00pm daily

No time is specified for the Holy Eucharist, but there are forms for the 'Administration of the Communion' (i.e. from the Reserved Sacrament) after Morning Prayer (presumably on any day) and after the 2.00pm service on Sundays. Shorter forms of all these services were provided, as the full liturgies were intended to be celebrated or led by the Angel (or Bishop), eho might not always be available.

Standring's booklet quotes from an Edinburgh newspaper report published at the time the Church there was opened in 1881, and the Sunday services differ somewhat from those given above viz.

10.15am A blend of Morning Prayer and Forenoon Service followed by the Eucharist (the whole thing lasting two-and-a-half hours!)
2.15pm Afternoon Service
4.15pm 'a separate service for instruction'
6.30pm 'public preaching' - a sort of 'Mission Service'?

The observant will note that there seems to be no mention of 5.00pm Evening Prayer, but that may well have preceded the 6.30pm preaching.

In the same press report, weekday services are given as Morning and Evening Prayer at 6.00am and 5.00pm, with Forenoon and Afternoon services on Wednesdays and Fridays only.

One wonders how many of the congregation actually attended the weekday services......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!!

Is this what we have been talking about?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08174a.htm

They sounded pretty weird (I can really see +Rowen trying to raise the dead, seriously I can actually)

-103
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, 103rd - this entry does refer to the sect we are discussing here (I hate to mention that the same link has already been provided by Aumbry some few posts ago!).

Their doctrines may seem weird to some people, but they were held with great sincerity and conviction, I believe. As all do know, many practices and teachings of churches today seem weird to others........!!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
Grrrrrr Aumbry.....

-103
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello all

I found this conversation while surfing and I do not wish to intrude, but I may be able to shed some light in the doctrine of the Catholic Apostolic Church. I have studied it in my youth, for it is part of the history of the church which I belong to the New Apostolic Church.

The Catholic Apostolic Church was formed when a different groups came began questioning the Christian church of their day. They researched the bible and saw that the church was lacking in the ministries it had in the beginning. They found it was lacking the Apostle ministry. For it was the Apostles were given by the Lord to lead His church, and the ones who came together including Henry Drummed, Edward Irving and the rest believed that this ministry was necessary to be established before Christ would return. Though Prophecy this ministry was once again established. If you wish I could go into a long detailed history of events that lead to this re-establishment of the Apostle ministry.

The Catholic Apostolic Church believed that there needed to be 12 Apostles and that each one would need to bring in 12,000 members, making 144,000 members before the Lord would return. After the all 12 of the Apostles were called, they went out on a missionary journey to the leaders of the major Governments at the time and the leaders of the world Christian religions and gave met with them and gave them a book detailing the need for the Apostle ministry in the Lord work and offering their service as Apostles of the Lord. They were mostly rejected.

The warmest reception they received was by the King of Prussia and he allowed them to operate freely in his country. Because of this freedom of operation the Catholic Apostolic Church grew in Prussia and Germany. After a while these original 12 Apostles began to die leaving a void in the Lords work. Though prophecy more Apostles were called in Germany, but the English Apostles rejected these new Apostles and a separation came about between the two working areas. This was about 1864.

The English church, the Catholic Apostolic slowly died away with the death of the Last of its Apostles. The German church continued to grow and became known as the New Apostolic Church and now has over 8,000,000 members.

Thank you

Kevin
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello again

One more thing, yes they were called the Irvingits, but in fact Irving, compared to Henry Drummond and the many others only had a minor roll in the church.

Kevin
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hullo Kevin579, and thanks for your input!

As a member of the New Apostolic Church, you might be able to tell us whether the forms of worship you use are based in any way on the Catholic Apostolic Church's Liturgy - we have discussed the latter at some length on this thread.

Incidentally, I believe Irving was not actually an Apostle as such - the first two being J. B. Cardale and Henry Drummond. IIRC, Irving died before the C-A Church really got going.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

You are right about Irving, but many still call the church by his name. As for its liturgy, I do not believe the liturgy in the New Apostolic Church today resembles the Catholic Apostolic. My best guess is that the Liturgy of the Catholic Apostolic Church of that time would more closely resemble the Episcopal or Perspiration churches of the same time period. Because basically the CAC or its leaders came out of those two denominations. I will go back and find some of my New Apostolic Church history books and see what I can find.

I do know that prophecy was big in the church of that time; it was the prophets that called the Apostles into their ministry. The leadership of the church was though the Apostles. The Apostles then ordained other ministers to serve in the church, such as Bishops and Priests.

Kevin
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The Catholic Apostolic Liturgy developed over several decades, and I have a copy of it dating from the 1880s.

The services are quite advanced and complex, with elements of Anglican, Roman Catholic and Orthodox practice. My understanding was that the New Apostolic Church had moved away from using these forms of service, but it would be nice to know for sure! You will see from earlier posts on this thread that some of us feel a degree of sadness that such a beautiful and dignified Liturgy should no longer be in use.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

As I'm not completely familiar with the CAC Liturgy, I can tell you the elements of the New Apostolic sermon and church in general and you can decide for yourself how similar or dissimilar it is.

Both the CAC and the NAC believe in the need for the Apostle ministry to prepare Christianity for the Lords return. In both cases the Apostles lead the church.

In both denominations the Apostles choose and ordain other ministries to lead the different working areas and congregations. For example there is an Apostle and in his working area there may be two bishops, under the bishops there may be some evangelists or shepherds and under the evangelists some priests.

In the CAC there was a ministry of a prophet. There has been no real prophecy in the NAC since the first part of the last century.

For the New Apostolic church, in the basic teaching one can find similarities with the Roman Catholic and the Lutheran and some other protestant religions. Often times I have heard when discussion the church with a protestant we are accused of being too catholic. When talking to a Catholic we are accused of being two protestant.

The New Apostolic is not big on ritual; unlike say the Catholic we do not have the incense. I guess you would say our services are simple when compared to some others. I think the NAC has come under more of a puritan influence, we are not extremely ornate.

Our service, each congregation has a choir that begins to sing 15 minutes before service. At 5 minutes before service the choir ends and only the organ plays. At about 1-2 minutes prior to service the organ stops and the congregation is silent. When the service begins the congregation begins to sing a congregational hymn the priest or officiate walks from the sacristy to behind the altar.

After the congregational hymn is ended the officiate opens the service in prayer. After the prayer the choir again sings a song and then the sermon begins. After about 15-20 minutes the officiate will ask the choir to sing another hymn or maybe the congregation, and he will ask another serving brother to assist in the sermon, maybe two or three others depending on time. After the others have assisted the officiate will say a few more words.

About 45 minutes after the sermon had begun, we will celebrate Holy Communion. The officiate will ask the congregation to rise and say the Lords Prayer in unison. After the Lords prayer the priest or officiate will pronounce the Absolution or forgiveness of sins, then say a short prayer. When the short prayer is finished the officiate the consecrates the elements of bread and wine for the holy Lords supper

After the consecration the congregation is invited for Holy Communion. The priestly ministries will come down from behind the alter and stand in front of it and the congregation will come forward to receive the host. Our communion host is a small piece of unleavened bread, round, with an imprint of the Lord Jesus on one side and three drops of wine on it. During communion the congregation or choir will sing softly.

When communion is finished, the officiate will close the service in prayer. After the closing prayer the choir will sing a ending song.

That is the basic structure of the NAC service, so you can tell me how close that comes to the Catholic Apostolic or not.

Both churches had or have three sacraments.

Holy Baptism

Holy Communion

and Holy Sealing (this is where the Apostle lays his hands on your forehead to transmit the holy spirit into your heart and soul.)

Kevin
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Fascinating!

Sounds to me as though the New Apostolic Church is still very much Catholic Apostolic in its organisation and ministries, but has reverted to an earlier and simpler form of worship - perhaps rather more like that of the original C-A Church before they developed their rituals......

Do you, Kevin579, use set forms of prayer etc., or does the officiating minister make it up as he goes along? The C-A Liturgy seems to leave very little room for 'extemporare' prayer.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

We have no set pre written prayers; all prayers come out of the heart and soul of the one praying. The only exception to this, of course, is when we say the Lords prayer.

The great majority of our ministers are laymen. None of our sermons are written either. Our services are based on a bible text and a few paragraphs of explanation or of a teaching based on that text. The officiate and those that assist read and study the bible and the paragraphs given and that is the foundation for the service.

The same bible text and the paragraphs the text and the paragraphs are provided by our Chief Apostle, the leader of the New Apostolic Church. The same text and paragraphs are used in most all the congregations for any particular service. We have two services a week, one Sunday Morning and one in the midweek, mostly Wednesday evening.

Kevin
 

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Posted by pater ursus (# 2512) on :
 
Dear Bishop's Finger, my apologies, but is there any connection with the "Catholic Apostolic Church" and the "Old Catholics" (Not Roman)??

I hope you don't mind me asking.

Cheers

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Whilst not Bishop's Finger I think that there is no connection between the two churches apart from the use of catholic in their titles.

The Old Catholics are a breakaway from the Roman Catholic Church and the Apostolic Catholics are not, taking their original membership from various British protestant denominations.

Aumbry
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Kevin579 confirms, I think, that the New Apostolic Church has indeed gone back to its roots, as it were, the Catholic Apostolic Church having begun life very much as a non-Conformist group with no set liturgy.

Does the New Apostolic Church still set great store by 'gifts of the Spirit' (e.g. speaking in tongues) and a belief that Our Lord's return is quite imminent? I take Kevin's point that the gift of prophecy has not been seen much in recent times.

Thanks, Aumbry, for the remarks re Old Catholics - IIRC, there was a recent separate thread on that subject on this board.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
The Old Catholics thread is currently residing near the top of page 2.
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello Bishop

The NewApostolic Church awaits the return of our Lord Jesus to take home His bride. Our core belief is the same as the Catholic Apostolic Church was. Actually I view it as they split off from us rather than we from them. We kept on the same path and teaching while they went thier own way. The speaking in tongues was ended at the same time as the prophetcy. My great grandmother was actually a prophet at the time it was ended, she for one was happy she did not have to bear that burden anymore.

You said that the Catholic Apostolic changed its liturgy as it developed, do you know when this change came about? I was just wondering if it was after the split in 1864.

Kevin
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Kevin579 - thanks for your answers!

The Catholic Apostolic Liturgy continued to develop after the split from the German church in 1864.

At the beginning there was a marked Church of Scotland influence (hardly surprising, as Irving was a Presbyterian) with the minister using his own words. In 1837 the Apostles issued a lithographed form of Communion Service - this had no formal Epistle or Gospel and most of the prayers were still extempore.

A more formal liturgy was introduced at Christmas 1843 (when vestments were used for the first time). Lights and incense were first used in 1851. Several revised versions were printed between then and the eighth edition of 1880, when the Liturgy reached its final form. A German version was first published in 1850.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
I have had a number of encounters with Catholic Apostolics over the years. As the clergy dwindled many of the faithful were encouraged to go to the CofE for the Sacraments and indeed played a full part in parish life whilst still meeting in house groups and raising funds. I think a subdeacon still existed in Liverpool until fairly recently. An ex-CathAp couple were parishioners in my last Anglican parish and a GP / priest was a former CathAp in Chester Diocese. When I joined the Orthodox Church I discovered that one of its priests in my region was a former CathAp-Anglican. The folk are still around but I should imagine that they are very thin on the ground now.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I'm not surprised to hear Father Gregory's remarks about C-As being gently directed towards the C of E etc. as their own clergy departed. It chimes in with their view of themselves as not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.

It would be interesting to hear the reminiscences of these good folk regarding the C-A Church and its practices.....

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
...not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
Many thanks, PB - in the absence of a Catholic Apostolic church to MW (note the clever return to the OP!), I really shall try to investigate the Ancient Catholic Church soon......

It's a bit scary, so if I disappear from this board suddenly, you know where to look.......

Ian J.

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quote:

---

The Ag's hymnal was "The Voice of the Bride". #16 goes:

Here is the land of pure delight;
Here dawns the day that knows no night;
Here where I walk with Him in white;
Here, here, here, rejoice!

Do you like that, Louise?

---

It would depend a lot on the music!

I've been rather busy of late and haven't had the leisure to go hunting in archives/second hand bookshops for things Catholic and Apostolic. Maybe when I get a bit of leave I'll remedy that.

L.
 

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Posted by Bonaventura (# 5561) on :
 
Dear all

I read this thread with interest some time ago while still in Oxford. I had never heard of the catholic apostolics before. Then I came back and ate dinner with my vicar here in Oslo, he mentioned that near his childhood home there was an 'old catholic' congregation and that now their church was taken over by the Greek Orthodox. I was incredulous, I had read that the church was inhabited by some strange eschatological people who vanished as their predicitions did not come true, so these could not be the same same 'old catholics' of the utrecht union who broke away after Vatican I.

Then this evening I remembered this thread and it dawned on me: of course those were catholic apostolics in Oslo! And these were not of the German type who later elected new apostles, the were of the british kind who had built a gothic style church and did not elect new apostles.

You can see a picture and a brief description of the church here:

http://orbitz.wcities.com/en/record/162,112502/97/
 

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Posted by Last Angel (# 8098) on :
 
When I was a student in Birmingham in 1971, Douglas Hickman’s ‘Birmingham’ in the City buildings series (Studio Vista) led me to the former Catholic Apostolic (then Greek Orthodox) Church in Summer Hill Terrace. I was enthralled with this red-blooded High Victorian building by Birmingham architect J. A. Chatwin with its finely-shaped interior, and, even more, intrigued by its origins. Conversation led to Dr. Robert Hetherington, one of whose former patients had been Charles Whitehead Thonger, the last Angel (bishop) of this church. The Doctor, a fount of knowledge about Birmingham ecclesiology, expounded the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church and described services that he had attended in this great building.
He lent me a copy of Rowland Davenport’s ‘Albury Apostles’ (United Writers Press, 1970). I found Thonger’s gravestone (at St. Bartholomew’s Edgbaston) which described him simply as ‘a faithful minister of his flock’. I got to know some Cathaps who still used some rooms at the church; they declined, however, to let me attend one of their services of prayer.

Back at home in south London in the summer vacation of 1972, one weekday, church-crawling north of the Thames I tried my luck at the Maida Avenue church. A request to visit the interior met with a polite refusal and an invitation to attend their Sunday service. So back I went, having made excuses at J. L. Pearson’s kindred St. Michael’s Croydon where I was an altar boy. Arriving to find that the CA service was cancelled due to the Underdeacon’s illness, I pleaded the long distance travelled on the dregs of a student grant and was treated to a tour of the building by the caretaker. The memory of this experience is vivid after over thirty years: standing aghast at this high-minded, stony interior with its calm proportions, vaulted vistas and austere fittings. The plan and elevations of this 1894 church seemed similar to the type Pearson first used at St. Peter’s Vauxhall (1863) and developed at St. Michael’s Croydon, St. Alban’s Birmingham, St. Agnes Liverpool (not St. Augustine’s Kilburn which is very different), but with more complexity in the subsidiary spaces, including a fully aisled apsidal S. chapel. It is amazing that structural stability is achieved in these buildings without flying buttresses: the lateral thrust of the vaults seems constrained only by the thin skin of the clerestory walls which are taller than they would be in a medieval church: to what extent did 19th century advances in mathematics and physics allow architects to calculate structural stress and the properties of materials with greater exactitude?

The caretaker described how, after the death of the last CA priest, Wilfred Maynard Davson, the last deacon had consumed the Blessed Sacrament, extinguished the light before the tabernacle and roped off the sanctuary. I loved this silent church: with a total lack of 20th century interventions, it was profoundly satisfying. I have never returned to Maida Avenue, but it is good to read that the church is still looked after.

Upon leaving Birmingham and gaining a job in London University, I became involved with the University Chaplaincy which had as it place of worship the former central CA church in Gordon Square. I got to know some Cathaps who still lived in the Square: they seemed courteous, very orthodox in belief, and reserved, even secretive in talking about ‘the Lord’s work’. They said that I should not be in possession of a copy of Dr. Davson’s ‘Sermons for the third stage of the Lord’s work’ which I’d managed to acquire.

Much light is thrown upon the Catholic Apostolic Church’s theology and liturgy by Columba Flegg’s study ‘Gathered under Apostles’ (OUP, 1992). This reveals a very attractive 19th century intellectual group with highly developed ideas of ministry, sacraments and eschatology. There was a fourfold ‘vertical’ ministry of Apostles, Angels (bishops), Priests and Deacons, within which there was a fourfold ‘horizontal’ division into Apostles, Prophets, Pastors and Evangelists. Their view of the Real Presence was close to the Eastern Orthodox position and thus avoided western controversies about transubstantiation, consubstantiation and the ‘real absence’. The Eucharistic liturgy drew upon a range of sources, RC, Orthodox and Anglican. There were two entrances to the sanctuary, at the Gloria and the Introit (equivalent to the offertory in the western rite): this corresponds to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, from which the Anaphora (prayer of consecration) seems also to have been drawn. Other features, though, were unique to the Catholic Apostolic rite, for example the double epiclesis (recited after consecrating both bread and wine) and the use of incense only to symbolise intercession, during the incense anthem (another unique feature) and intercession which followed the consecration. People and objects were not censed. G. O Standring in ‘Albury and the Catholic Apostolic Church’ says that the censer was waved towards the altar, though some churches seem to have used a standing thurible (at Christ the King we used a swung thurible that survived from the CA period). Standring states that the use of incense was suspended after the death of the last Apostle (F. V. Woodhouse) in 1901 and other writers attest this, but Dr. Hetherington’s description of a ‘High Mass’ in the Birmingham church, and descriptions elsewhere of ‘full’ services at Gordon Square in the 1930s suggest that incense was still used.

The long, slow death of the Catholic Apostolic Church after 1901 is described in Seraphim Newman-Norton’s book ‘The time of silence’ (1974) and in D. Tierney’s article ‘The Catholic Apostolic Church: a study in Tory Millenarianism’ in ‘Historical Research’ LXIII, no. 152 1990, p. 289-315. The latter, as its title suggests, proposes some intriguing theories about the sociology of the Church: whatever the truth of these, an impressive body of liturgy, theology and architecture remains to evoke a colourful ‘alternative 19th century religious movement, that was home to much piety and learning.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Bonaventura!

The Catholic Apostolics did try to reach all the Christian world with their message......c.f. a previous post referring to a C-A church in the USA. The picture shows a small and unassumimg building, probably typical of many C-A buildings which have long since disappeared.

As a literary aside to this thread, I recently came across a mention of the church in Maida Vale in Barbara Vine's novel 'Grasshopper'. The heroine, a young student called Clodagh, visits the church one Sunday morning in the late 1980s....

'The Irvingites at the Holy Catholic Apostolic in Maida Avenue were unwelcoming, didn't throw me out but made me cover my head with a rather nasty chiffon scarf they produced from a collection kept for that purpose.'

Sounds to me as if the author (aka Ruth Rendell) may have spoken from personal experience, even though she got the name slightly wrong!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Bonaventura (# 5561) on :
 
Dear Bishop's finger and all other readers of this tread.

I just found a wonderful page which might interest you.

I found a danish page with pictures of the interior of a now demolished catholic-apostolic church in Denmark (not sure which city). The interior of the church would in all probability be much like the one in Oslo, Norway previously described.

The two churches at the bottom of the page are still in use (by the A-Cs), though sung litanies only.

http://www.meng-soerensen.dk/Nostalgi/Katolskap.htm

The other page details catholic-apostolic vestments!

Note that only picture 3,4,6,7 and 8 is of A-C vestments, the rest are lutheran and Roman-catholic wich the author uses to compare with the A-C vestments.

http://www.meng-soerensen.dk/Katap/katapkirke.htm

The author emphasises again that liturgical colours were not used to indicate season, but rank.

So for picture 6, the colours of the stoles indicate the ranks of:

elder = yellow stole
prophet = blue stole
evangelist = red stole
pastor = white stole

though at the eucharist everone wore purple or white stoles. At baptism everyone wore white, except for the evangelist who wore red.

Picture seven details how everyone below the rank of angel crossed their stoles when wearing an alb.

Sorry for the Danish folks, but I am willing to translate even more for anyone that is interested.

[ 04. August 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Bonaventura ]
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Many thanks, Last Angel, for that long and fascinating posting that answers many questions!
Is "Gathered under Aps" you think worth acquiring?

And Seraphim Newman-Norton appears to be with us still under another ecclesiastical incarnation. 'Nuff said.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Once again, many thanks to Bonaventura for these fascinating links! What a shame that the little church illustrated has been demolished - a perfect gem, and probably typical of many in this country. I was also intrigued to hear that services are still being held elsewhere in Denmark, albeit the Litany only.

All we need now is an audio link to some Catholic Apostolic hymns and anthems......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh, and my personal thanks too to Last Angel for his scholarly post - I've learnt a great deal about this sect from this thread, and Last Angel has expressed much better than I can the feelings of admiration and respect I have for them.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Last Angel (# 8098) on :
 
If you go to http://www.apostolic.de you'll find a German Catholic Apostolic site with history, theological and liturgical documents and pictures of many churches.
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

It has been some time since I have been here, a few months ago I said that I would print some of the history of the origions of the CAC, here it is:

A great number of honourable and godfearing men, especially in Scotland and England, had for a long time been absorbed in the study of the Bible. In earnest conversation concerning the fulfilment of the divine promises, accompanied by fervent prayers, they sought peace of the soul and revival of the faith. They were not so-called secretarians, and certainly not the worst members of the Anglican Church. Repeatedly they pleaded to the faithful God to grant them the necessary enlightenment and understanding of that which God really wanted to convey to them through the given promises. They also realized with increasing clarity that the return of the Lord was imminent. In this manner more and more friends and partisans, as well as those who were filled with the same desire for more light and knowledge than what they had received so far, came together. They met regularly for earnest prayer meetings. At that time however they were quite unaware of the great thoughts which the Lord had for these faithful souls who were yearning for redemption. In childlike faith they prayed for another abundant second outpouring of the Holy Ghost as at Pentecost. They were convinced that the Lord, according to His promises concerning the early and latter rain, would again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh prepared for this purpose. They also knew that God expected man to cry out for his needs. Besides, He had promised to grant the Holy Spirit to all those who brought this request before Him. These godfearing souls, who still belonged to their former Church, knew that God would hear them one day and answer them as well. They however did not anticipate in which manner this was going to take .place.
12

[material deleted due to copyright considerations]

These facts, which for some people were the cause for strife and annoyance, were accepted by others with ready cognizance and joyful hope. Many seriously minded ministers of various denominations heard the news and deeds of God with great joy. The testimony of their faith moved other hearts in turn, and in this manner the number of believers increased.

Kevin

[ 17. September 2004, 01:42: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Hostly Mobcap ON

Since it is rather unusual for people to write posts which are the equivalent of over ten single-spaced typed pages, and which include numbered paragraph/page breaks in the middle of sentences and references to confirming something "...in the next chapter", I have to presume that this was cut and pasted from another source, which makes it a potential Commandment 7 violation. Therefore I have deleted the bulk of the material.

If you wish to provide access to large amounts of material, please provide a link to a source elsewhere.

Hostly Mobcap OFF
 

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Posted by Carilloneur (# 8279) on :
 
A link would indeed be very useful for those of us who were not quick enough to read this material before deletion!
 

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Posted by kevin579 (# 7844) on :
 
Hello

The information was from a church publication printed in 1975, I do not know of any link or if the information is printed on the net or not, I will check though. The book was distributed free of charge to the members of the church and I did not see any copyright restrictions.

Kevin
 

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Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Be ye resurrected! An enquiry awaits in Purgatory!
 

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Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
hmm, well I started a thread in Purg about the CACs, but wanted I wanted to know about was their theology and teachings, particularly about family life, role of women etc, rather than liturgy and architecture, but that threads been closed and referred here.

I'mm guessing that's off topic here, so what's my best move now?
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I'll flag it up with the Purg hosts and see if your thread can be re-opened with this clarification.

So the next step is to be patient.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Belatedly dons Hostly Mobcap

The CAC thread in Purg is now re-opened for those wishing to discuss Manda's concerns.

This thread remains available for discussion of liturgy and worship spaces, etc.

Hostly Mobcap OFF
 

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Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
Thank ye kindly. This one was very interesting to read as well. I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great) probably from around the 1920's or maybe earlier, possibly until the 1970's - not exactly sure. My Danish ancestors were also part of the Danish bit of the CACs - which is how they met, when one of them came to UK as an au-pair, and started attending the London branch.

We have somewhere various pieces of CAC literature including a copy of 'Gathered under Apostles' - and possibly some litrgical books. I will try and remember at Christmas to have a look around at home and see what's there, there may possibly be hymnals and other things.

PS, I think my Mum has possible been inside the Gordon Sqaure church - I will ask, and see what she thought of it

[ 02. December 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: Manda ]
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manda:
I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great)

---

You're only 8 miles out

Gordon Square is in Bloomsbury, right next to UCL, about half way between the British Museum and Euston Station, just a stone's throw (literally) from the back of the building I'm sitting in right now.

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.
 

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Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
Bishops Finger and others

Did anyone MW a New Apostolic Church? If so, please let me know.

As I'm free this Sunday and there are a number within easy reach of me, I'd quite like to see how a number of their worship elements work together.

Blessings!
 

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Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manda:
I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great)

---

You're only 8 miles out

Gordon Square is in Bloomsbury, right next to UCL, about half way between the British Museum and Euston Station, just a stone's throw (literally) from the back of the building I'm sitting in right now.

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Pax Britannica:
Well, let's make them an offer and we can recreate a service with BF

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quote:

---

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:


Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
ALERT

I'm not sure if this is within the Ship's rules but a host/admin will correct it if not, please.

I'm posting it here for obvious reasons.

I am picking up the Dedler worm and can only think it is coming from the website for the New Apostolic Church - the one which includes nacukie within it's address - I go to the Romford church bit.

Hope this is helpful.

I've also posted in Purgatory.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The murals in the Edinburgh church sound absolutely breathtaking

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You can see them here.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Oh, stupid woman. I meant to listen to last night's broadcast, and then completely forgot about it until I saw the thread this morning. It doesn't seem to be available on the BBC website, either.

Does anyone know if there are any recordings of the music available, or were there just excerpts specially recorded for the broadcast?
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Oh drat and fiddlesticks, I only just saw this, one day too late.

What was the C-A music like? Just settings of the Ordinary written for their use, or was there hymnody as well?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I understand that the music recorded for this programme is on a CD produced by the Mansfield Traquair Trust (who are responsible for conservation of the murals), so I'm writing to them to see if I can obtain one. I believe it's only 15 minutes' worth.

The choral music was used as 'background' to some of the broadcast, so it was a little difficult to work out exactly what it was! Sounded good, though - it was neither plainsong nor Anglican chant, and was a bit hard to place......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Thank you, Ian - that information, and looking at the murals on the website, has made me a bit less cross with myself!
 

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Posted by Peripatekos (# 8992) on :
 
Hi all,

I recently googled this thread about the Cath Apostolic Church and as this has been the subject of my interest for the past 20 years, I hope I may join you & give some answers to questions that have been posed, maybe also ask some fresh questions…

=====

Pax Britannica wrote (long ago):
"And what does Anson in “Bishops at Large” say of them?"

Nothing. The CAC is not mentioned in this book, because its entirely different origins. It has no connection to the Wild Bishops (episcopi vagantes).

I also saw some remarks concerning the New Apostolic Church. This church is the result of a split-off from the Hamburg CAC congregation from the mother body. A from the English CAC Apostles excommunicated Prophet (Heinrich Geyer) called a new (German) Apostle (oct 1862). The Hamburg CAC congregation accepted this new Apostle, the English Apostles did not. The English Apostles declared what happened in Hamburg as "the Devil's work" and excommunicated all those who followed the new German Apostle. This break-away group eventually called itself "New Apostolic Church".

Major differences between the two groups:
CAC: high church liturgy. NAC: protestant liturgy.
CAC: oecumenical doctrine. NAC: sectarian, exclusivist doctrine.

The CAC Liturgy book and the Hymn book are hard to find. I managed to buy a copy of "Hymns for the use of the Churches" some time ago, but it was the first copy I have seen for sale on the internet in 10 years!!!

=====

Several persons have mentioned the CAC church at Maida Avenue. As far as I know it is the only CAC church building in the UK that is still owned by the CAC and in use as such. Why that is the case, I don't know. All other churches have been closed after the death of the last Priest or Deacon, but Paddington seems to be the exception. The last surviving CAC Priest (worldwide, I think) resided in Paddington. I think I have seen his name mentioned, Wilfred Maynard Davson. Maybe he has given instructions to the Subdeacons or Layhelps to keep the church open?

Bishops Finger listed the CAC churches in London:
Gordon Square; Maida Vale; Mare Street, Hackney (became Greek Orthodox many years ago); New Road, Camberwell (now Greek Orthodox); Elyston Street, Chelsea (bombed in WW2); Abbey Orchard Street, Westminster (became Roman Catholic - I remember it from about 30 years ago, but I believe it has been demolished); Duncan Street, Islington (present status not known!).

The Westminster Church has been closed and demolished long ago (1960s, I think). The Islington church is gone as well. The Southwark church (Camberwell New Road) was bombed and damaged in WW II. After the war it was repaired and partially rebuilt. The building as it stands now has only 2/3 of the length it had before the war.

Beside these 7 congregations, there were also so-called "Horn churches" (not wholly independent congregations, were "under" another congregation). I know of one in Wood Green (I think the building has been demolished) and there was at least one other Horn church. These two are probably the "Gordon House Highgate" and the "Gloucester Road Islington" churches aumbry mentioned in one of his posts.

An incredibly rich collection of pictures of CAC church buildings (exterior and interior) and ministers can be found in the following (bi-lingual: German/English) book:
http://home.t-online.de/home/03641442918-0001/schroeter.htm

The author is Mr. J.A. Schroeter, who several years earlier wrote a book (in German) on the Hamburg schism and the role of the Prophet Geyer (NAC split-off from CAC, see above):
http://www.tectum-verlag.de/8724text.htm

(This is no advertising, I am neither connected to Mr. Schroeter nor get a percentage of every sold book)

=====

Pax Britannica wrote:
"My 1905 Harmsworth Encyclopaedia reports "50,000 communicants, mostly in Britain".

The number of members in Germany far outnumbered those in Britain. Around 1900 there were over 250 congregations in the "tribe" (CAC Apostles divided Christianity in twelve "tribes") of Northern Germany alone. The Berlin CAC Central Church (Wilmsstrasse) was the only CAC church worldwide that was "fully developed", i.e. had sufficient servants to be able to completely perform the Liturgy in its ideal form. See the post of leo:
"Re- the idea of having a service, I doubt whether you could muster enough personnel. According to Peter Anson's Fashions in Church Furnishings (Faith press 1960) pp. 107-114, you need 64 ministers. The celebrant is known as an angel His vestments are always white (except for black on Good Friday). he is assisted by 6 elders, 6 prophets, 6 evangelists, 6 pastors and 7 deacons, each with their own acolytes. Also under-deacons, deaconnesses and lay assistants in various coloured cassocks and buskins (slippers)".

I can provide some numbers of congregations from a 1900 CAC church address book, if that's of interest to you.

=====

Bonaventure wrote about the Catholic Apostolics in Oslo. In its heydays (late 19th/beginning 20th century) the CAC had 10 congregations in Norway, of which Oslo, Drammen and Bergen had Angels. The other congregations (e.g. Stavanger, Larvik) were smaller, had Priests or Deacons only.

Denmark has been a much more "fruitful" country, with at least 50 CAC congregations around the turn of the century (19th/20th).

=====

Columbus, in case you read this: could you PLEASE send me a private message?

=====

Aumbrey wrote:
"There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?"

I was in Bath in 2000 and checked out the address 20, Vineyards. Yes, the church still stands. Taking a picture of the front is hardly possible, but you can photograph the back easier. It was a Kingdom Hall of the Jehovah's Witnesses: not exactly the kind of Christianity the Apostles would have approved of…

=====

For those who want to Mystery Worship a CAC service (rather, a Litany): in Germany and Holland are still CAC congregations that hold services regularly.

=====

Thanks for your patience :-)
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Peripatekos, for the links (and welcome aboard the Ship!).

I was interested to learn that C-A congregations still meet for the Litany in Holland and Germany - a congregation was meeting each week for such a service at the Maida Vale Church in 1987, but does so no longer, it appears.

I think others have mentioned on this thread that the Gordon Square Church is also still owned by the C-A authorities (their administrative offices are there), but the church itself (or at least the English Chapel) is used regularly by the Forward-in-Faith movement of the C of E.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Bonaventura (# 5561) on :
 
Thank Peripatekos, and welcome to the ship.

An angel would have looked like this in full vestments. Are any of you familiar with what the tat of an apostle would have been?
 

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Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Hallo all

As a brand new sailor (as of today, still finding my way around, hoping I won't get seasick) I have been fascinated by this long thread. I was born (1942) & brought up as a CAC member, and together with my family, regularly attended Camberwell Church in SE London. (NB Manda: this is the one you meant... )

I would like to try and respond to a just a (random) few of the points that have jumped out from the many detailed posts – too many to digest in one quick read.

I can confirm that when Camberwell Church closed, members were directed to attend their local CoE. We as a family were communally confirmed into our local CoE, though we had all taken Holy Communion regularly since babyhood within the CAC.

We all had our own copies of the liturgy and my own very battered one is on my shelves here. Slipped between the pages is the special little bookmark we made for it, which consists of four coloured ribbons, each being one of the four liturgical colours, sewn together at one end with a small hanging gold cross. These strong colours with their various symbolic meanings have been important for me ever since.

My memories of the church and services are very strong. On Sundays we attended Morning Service, which was followed immediately by Holy Eucharist – everyone attended both as a matter of course. We all paid our tithe – put into the correct box as we entered the church. In the children's case, this was the carefully worked out 10% of our meagre pocket money. Once a month in the afternoon there was Sunday School, held in the bare and dusty upstairs room at the street end of the church – the centre part had been bombed in WW2, as has been mentioned, and at that time, was open and untidy, though I think it's now a pleasant garden area. We S/S children were given "tea" before Evening Service, which came straight afterwards.

Sorry, this next bit's OT: ... oh, the memory of those post Sunday School teas in that room ... sandwiches with the Enormous Treat of "real" shop-bought jam – unheard of in our home-cooked-food family, and at the time when Britain was just emerging from wartime rationing. Just that thin red scrape allocated to each sandwich was absolutely enough to make me look forward to S/S!)

On Wednesdays, my father went to the evening Litany, though I can't remember ever going to that. On Saturdays we often went to clean the church brass – the beautiful lectern eagle, the communion rail, and lots of bits and pieces around the altar and in the pulpit. I found that very enjoyable, being able to get close up to and handle the objects we were very familiar with from a distance.

All the women wore a hat in church as a matter of course, and I still feel uncomfortable now entering a church without one. We were taught that a woman's hair was her “crowning glory” and as such would be a distraction to others and must be covered when in God's house.

We heard words of prophecy often, but though these were fairly common, they were always treated as very special occasions, and those in the congregation who knew shorthand would carefully try and record what was said.

Though we didn't appreciate it then, the standard of the choir and hymn singing was very good. We sang with great and enjoyable gusto – when we moved to the CoE, the apologetic whisperings of the hymns came as rather a shock. I still miss the CAC singing.

We were taught very carefully and diligently, by my father and by our appointed family deacon who visited regularly to make sure this was going on in proper fashion. What we were taught is for another time

Just one other point for now: the recent Radio 3 Edinburgh programme seemed excellent, though I was washing my hair at the time ... and definitely need to listen again properly to the recording we made. Columba gave a very fair and balanced brief introduction. I have a copy of his "Gathered Under Apostles" which is CERTAINLY well worth reading for those interested.

Stranding
 

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Posted by Friar (# 9025) on :
 
I've enjoyed this thread enough to join SoF and contribute my own halfpennyworth or three...

1. My reminiscences of a Cath. Ap. friend.
2. (One of?) their church(es?) in Melbourne.
3. Their Liturgy (1848 edition).

1. A deceased friend of mine, one Derek Stone, grew up in Melbourne (Australia) in the Cath. Ap. Church and was quite a character in his own right - after the dying out of his local CA clergy, he became Anglican (as did many Cath. Ap. Churchmen), but then Orthodox, was excommunicated by the Gk Bp of Australia for 'attempting to introduce the Charismatic Renewal into Orthodoxy' (!), and undeterred got permission from the Catholic Abp of Hobart (Tasmania - where he lived latterly) to receive H. Communion (he was still technically Orthodox but deprived of their sacraments, while his wife was Catholic and so too the 10 or so offspring), and had done so even daily for 20 or 30 years before unexpectedly dropping dead of a heart attack a few years ago. Requiescat in pace, Derek!

Woe betide anyone who got him onto a favourite topic, such as tithing (big CAC influence here), the desirability of hordes of "deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, lectors and exorcists" (ditto - imagine the scene at St Joseph's, Hobart, when he prayed for this extempore during Mass one weekday!), Christian unity (ditto), Eastern Rites (ditto), Charismatic gifts (ditto), Exorcism and the activity of demons(ditto), Marian apparitions (NOT CAC! - perhaps from his devout wife Bridget?), etc. ad infinitum. That man could out-talk nearly anyone. From what I've read in the thread, many of his concerns are not uncharacteristic of those formerly members of the CAC.

He grew up in a pretty tough part of Melbourne during the Depression, in Fitzroy, within walking distance of the CAC church. He loved the liturgy (of whichever Church he attended; I recall him holding forth about a Coptic Liturgy he joined in - "Take off your shoes!" the deacon had shouted as he approached for Communion) and had clearly been brought up according to a very exacting moral and doctrinal standard, which came I guess from the CAC he knew as a boy.

(With his own large family he kept a similarly high standard according to his lights, inculcating swathes of doctrine and with patriarchal gravitas summoning the wife and children to family prayers at 7 am daily with a bell, by which the neighbour set his watch. Without batting an eye he told me how at one time Bridget stayed away from family prayers, upon which his comment was "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft," quoting 1 Sam 15:23 verbatim and clearly meaning it!)

2. Derek told me to take a look at his old church, just north of the Melbourne CBD in Queensbury St, Carlton - it's now used by the Romanian Orthodox, but it's still owned by the local trustees of the CAC, all very old I'm told, unsurprisingly. Alas, I haven't seen inside, nor, until finding this thread, did I know how much I have for ever missed out on by not asking Derek a few years ago to describe the church services of his youth.

Derek told me that on a return visit to Melbourne he found that the unsuspecting trustees of the Carlton CAC church had let a group called the Metropolitan Church use the premises - he explained to the trustees that they might not perhaps agree with certain tenets of that body, to which he drew their attention, and thereupon they decided to lease the church building to the Romanians instead. From the outside, which is all I've ever seen of it, it seems the Romanians have redecorated, with two outdoor icons of SS Peter and Paul affixed to the streetfront of the building, which is a small unpretentious structure.

3. Just a few days ago, for AUS$3 (!) I bought a very fine copy of "The Liturgy and Other Divine Offices of The Church." Montreal: Lovell and Gibson. No date, but from a rubric on p. xxvii explaining that the psalms for Sat 1 Jan 1848 are Pss 22ff, it must have been published about that time. I think that the bookshop didn't realize how rare this item must be, but then again 19th C. Canadian imprints of defunct liturgies probably aren't major sources of income for them. Supply would be low, but so too demand.

I must say from the text - alas, the rubrics are so sparse little can be told of the ceremonial - it seems a very well arranged liturgy, and startlingly so for 1842 for men coming out of contemporary Anglicanism and Presbyterianism. The only bizarre aspect of it is the position of the Pater noster - after the Sanctus, and before the Consecration! Perhaps (cf. Lutheran agendae) in reference to the petition for "our daily bread?" The theology expressed seems Puseyite to me, if he had dared to write his own rite, or rather, like the efforts of the Non-Jurors, or better, of those other 18th C. writers who composed their own rites a la the Apostolic Constitutions, although they had Arian not Pentecostalist leanings! All very much "Primitive Church" High Church nostalgia and reconstruction, in Cranmerian style.

The book seems to be in transition toward a more liturgically-knowledgeable position from a less liturgically-minded one. (For instance, the Collects vary seasonally, not daily.) The Kalendar is, I think, perhaps based on Wesley's adaptation of the BCP: there are Advent Sundays, and Xmas Eve and Day, and the Circumcision, but no Epiphany (?), and 7 Sundays 'after Xmas'. Next come Septua-, Sexa- and Quinquagesima, but no Lent, instead "Quadragesima Sunday" and Sundays after Quad. until that next before Easter, then Good Fri. - with a very fulsome Missa Praesanctificata and communion from the reserved species - and Easter Eve and Day, Sundays after Easter, Ascension Day, Pentecost Eve and Day - the former very interesting, with long penitential devotions expressing the Cath. Ap. view of the quenching of the Spirit in the early centuries by sinful Christians and his revivifying the Church only in the 19th C. - and the usual Sundays after Pent. Only two other feasts: Candlemas (sans candelis) and All Saints (with heavy emphasis on the multifarious ranks of the Cath. Ap. ministry). The volume is very winning and adaptable for private devotions...

All in all I must thank previous contributors for this engrossing thread, and would welcome questions if only I can help answer them.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks to stranding and Friar for your fascinating contributions to this thread (which has been far longer and fuller than I anticipated when I started it!).

Friar, your edition of the Liturgy is about forty years older than mine, and does indeed represent an evolving scheme of things. Interestingly, though, the seasonal rather than weekly variation of the Collects became the norm.

I do hope that our Sainted Hosts will retain this thread when the pending changes to the boards take place.......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
I thought I had better pinch myself to see if I still exist - being "CAC" is something that only runs in families, and families do not so often "die out". My family can trace back its CAC ancestry 5 generations so far, and the same is true for other families that are familiar from my childhood (we were also based at Camberwell!)
I confirm that the Maida Vale church still holds weekly prayer meetings each Sunday, and members come from quite a wide area to attend.
For most of its history, the hierachical priestly structure has had a very strong control on the members. Incidently my feeling is that it is this control structure that enabled the charismatic element to be maintained in such an astonishing way also. When the priests were no longer around the instruction was for each to "go it alone", it was up to each to "follow their own path."
As far as I am concerned, it is up to me to interpret CAC teaching for myself (just like biblical teaching really), including those concerning "the time of silence"
I would like to think that my beliefs and spiritual needs could be respected as much as any other CAC - consequently I would like to see open access to the beautiful Albury church and Gordon Square and to the records currently held under trust by a very small minority.
They are too good to be lost.
Sorry about this rant.
Do the rules allow this kind of post or not?
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
The rules are applied with a certain amount of discretion. If you cross the line, you'll get a warning.

As long as you're contributing to the thread topic, a certain amount of ranting/critiquing is OK. Just don't completely de-rail the discussion. A full-blown hissy-fit rant would belong in Hell. A debate about whether a particular group is doing their job properly would go to Purgatory.

jlg, MW Host

[ 30. January 2005, 14:23: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

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Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Peripatekos:

Aumbrey wrote:
"There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?"

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quote:

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Blueflash, the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around??? Or what if they choose not to?

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If they choose not to, that's fine, no problem. I hope we live in a more enlightened age where its easier for kids to choose their own way.
 

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Posted by Manda (# 6028) on :
 
And if they haven't had any contact with it and don't know anything about it?? I'm just wondering how that squares with it not dying out?


[tangent]
though of course some of the 'kids' value their own nice Anglican tradition [/tangent]
 

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Posted by Peripatekos (# 8992) on :
 
Thanks Stranding, Friar, Blueflash, for the VERY interesting flash-backs you've been providing! I have been fascinated by the CAC ever since I came to know about her history (20 years ago) and started collecting books by CA authors.

Much of what you told about the CA services is still exactly so maintained in Germany and the Netherlands. I have visited a couple of CA prayer meetings, and the first thing that struck me as odd were the hats and scarfs the women/girls wore...

Stranding: "We heard words of prophecy often, but though these were fairly common, they were always treated as very special occasions, and those in the congregation who knew shorthand would carefully try and record what was said."

What years are you talking about? And were there specially reserved "spots" in the meetings where these words were allowed to be uttered?
Wasn't this recording in shorthand discouraged? Since there were no offices anymore that had the capacity of checking these utterances?

Blueflash: "I confirm that the Maida Vale church still holds weekly prayer meetings each Sunday, and members come from quite a wide area to attend"

Do you know why the Maida Vale church is still open, holding meetings and has not followed the example of all other congregations, e.g. selling/donating the church to another denomination?

My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies. I do have a first edition of 1843 (well, not really the first, because I think there was a preliminary edition in 1842, which was only used in Albury - does someone know for sure?). The most recent English Liturgy I have is from the 1920's.
German CA Liturgies are still (!) being reprinted. I have a German Liturgy from 1967 and another one which is even more recent, the 1980s I think.

(small off-topic) I don't have a Canadian Liturgy, though, so if you are thinking of selling your copy, Friar, I assure you that I can give you a nice profit
And if one of you has other books related to the CAC and don't know what to do with them... You can always contact me via PM (/small off-topic)

Peripatekos

[ 02. February 2005, 11:14: Message edited by: Peripatekos ]
 

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Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Manda wrote:

quote:

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the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around???

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quote:

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(CAC members) think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them …

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quote:

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... words of prophecy ...
What years are you talking about?

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quote:

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And were there specially reserved "spots" in the meetings where these words were allowed to be uttered?

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quote:

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Wasn't this recording in shorthand discouraged?

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quote:

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Do you know why the Maida Vale church is still open, holding meetings and has not followed the example of all other congregations, e.g. selling/donating the church to another denomination?

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quote:

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My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies...

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quote:

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I'm not surprised to hear Father Gregory's remarks about C-As being gently directed towards the C of E etc. as their own clergy departed. It chimes in with their view of themselves as not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.

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quote:

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…learnt a great deal about this sect.

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quote:

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While perhaps not being heretical they were (are?) nonetheless regarded as schismatic by the Established Church.

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quote:

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The C-A Liturgy seems to leave very little room for 'extemporare' prayer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peripatekos:

My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies. I do have a first edition of 1843 (well, not really the first, because I think there was a preliminary edition in 1842, which was only used in Albury - does someone know for sure?). The most recent English Liturgy I have is from the 1920's.

(small off-topic) I don't have a Canadian Liturgy, though, so if you are thinking of selling your copy, Friar, I assure you that I can give you a nice profit

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quote:

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Just to clarify Stranding's fascinating post - the organ recitals at the Gordon Square church are actually on the first Friday of each month.

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Many thanks Carrilloneur for picking up that error – I obviously don't know my alphas from my omegas. Sorry for confusion.
 

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Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
An amazingly interesting thread! But did you know that Irving and the CAC are also the proto-Zionist fore-runners of the Plymouth Brethren and other Dispensational Christian movements? Here is a link to an article about Edward Irving's famous treatise called Babylon and Infidelity Foredoomed.

The CAC apparenetly emerged from the Albury Prophetic Conference hosted by Henry Drummond a woman called Lady Powerscourt at Albury House.

Irving, apparently, was convined that the Gentile Church was totally apostate and Drummond was convinced that the CAC would effect a return to the true Jewish origins of the Christian Church (hence the tabernacle/temple symbolism in their liturgical worship). The CAC was formed in the belief that the Catholic Church was apostate and anti-semitic.

According to author Stephen Sizer, 'On the first day of Advent in 1826, Henry Drummond (1786-1860), a city banker, politician, and High Sheriff of Surrey (and the first Apostle in the CAC!!), opened his home at Albury Park to a select group of some twenty invited guests to form a Prophetic Parliament and discuss matters concerning the immediate fulfilment of prophecy. The CAC was formed at this meeting along with a group called, 'The School of the Prophets'.

The plot thickens...
 

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Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
Whoops! That should read '...Drummond and a woman...'.
 

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Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
To try and give my understanding of some of the points raise, although I have only been researching it properly for five years:

The religious environment that Irving, Drummond, Derby and Powerscourt were all a part of around 1830ish was getting into "signs of the times", prophesy, and the second coming. At an early stage people like Irving were mixing with Derby. In time the views of individuals separated out. Irving and Drummond held the Albury Conferences very year for 3 years in Surrey.
Derby was involved with the Powerscourt Conferences in Ireland which eventually led to the Brethren, quite separate from the Irvingites, as they were then called.
The Albury Conferences were quite large, hardworking affairs, there are lists of the people who attended.

Re Maida Vale. I think the last priest at Maida Vale (Paddington) decided to carry on when others had been told to close down. For me its an interesting example of the tensions existing in the "body" between authority and schism, that characterise its history, right from the beginning. Once the final apostle died, who was to decide who has the authority?
It needs to be understood that to them God was inseparable from authority, and the principle of democracy was seen as a smokescreen behind which "Satan" can work.

Maida Vale is also set up now under a separate charity to Gordon Square.
 

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Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
Another point, each of the 12 apostles was given a "tribe" for their jurisdiction, a geographical area over which they ruled (mostly in Europe). It was considered that each country or area has its own spiritual characteristics and these were to be celebrated. Most of the history I have seen has been about the English Church, under the Apostle Cardale the lawyer.
The danish CAC seems to have quite different characteristics and they dont believe in secrecy.
 

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Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blueflash:

Darby was involved with the Powerscourt Conferences in Ireland which eventually led to the Brethren, quite separate from the Irvingites, as they were then called.

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Yes, but I am aware, however, that the Brethren subsequently distanced themselves from associations with the CAC as it developed its liturgy and ecclesiology. This article by Brethren minister William Kelly, (which you've no doubt read during your extensive research), desribes the ordination of CAC Apostles in detail and by implication suggests that Brethrenism and the CAC were aware of each other, shared similar eschatological views, but differed greatly in terms of their ecclesiology.
 

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Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
I'm sorry. This article by William Kelly.
 

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Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
Thank you M.T. Succinctly put, and a very comprehensive reference.
I don't pretend to any proper theological research, I'm just a magpie searching for what I need.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Geneva Gown ON
This thread is veering off into deeper theological and historical discussions that would be better taken up in Purgatory. Please take them there.
Geneva Gown OFF
 

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Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
I was taken round inside Albury Church about 2-3 years ago, and found it all most beautiful. More of the size of a "parish church" than the cavernous interior of Gordon Square, and more friendly. Everything is of the highest quality construction and well cared for and kept exactly as original. There are beautiful colourful windows and intricate painted patterns on the wall.
At the rear of the church there is a confessional, symbolising that they considered Roman Catholics as part of the one Church. However the penitent has space to sit (or whatever) inside, and the confessor sits outside.
To one side of the Church and ajoining is the Chapter House where the Apostles had their deliberations and a "scribe" recorded them.
On the other side are modest but elegant rooms with desks and chairs, where the visitor's book is kept.
The only thing lacking is a guide to the history, furniture and rich symbolism.


 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
A while ago now, I mentioned on this thread that a short programme on Radio 3 (on 16 January) would look at some of the history of the former Catholic Apostolic Church in Edinburgh, famous for its Arts and Crafts murals.

A short CD featuring music written for the Church is now available from the Friends of the Mansfield Traquair Centre, as the Church is now known. Details are on their website:

http://www.mansfieldtraquair.org.uk/index.htm

Click on the links to 'A Legacy of Angels'. A link is also provided to the BBC website if you want to listen to the broadcast itself - the music is used only as a background to this.

The CD consists of 5 choral pieces (Communion Anthem, Agnus Dei, Incense Anthem, Great Introit and Sanctus - these latter two are absolutely beautiful) and a short organ piece (Allegretto - perhaps a postlude?). It gives a brief and tantalising taste of what, to me, sounds like a rather different type of liturgical music, and perhaps shows how much the Christian world may have lost with the decline of this body.......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
I ordered a copy of the CD a little while ago and it arrived yesterday. I agree with Ian, it's beautiful stuff and well worth listening to, quite apart from its historical interest.

It's started me wondering if it's possible to track down any of the music in published form - it seems a terrible shame to leave most of it in complete obscurity.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Indeed yes - the CD, as I said, provides a tantalising glimpse into the Catholic Apostolic liturgy, and I for one would love to hear a setting of the Gloria in Excelsis, the Anthem between Epistle and Gospel, and also the Te Deum (which concluded the full order for the Holy Eucharist on the Lord's Day). I shall make inquiries.......

For those interested, the choral items on the CD were located within the Eucharist as follows:

Communion Anthem - after the reception of communion and before the post-Communion prayers

Agnus Dei and Sanctus (sung in English) - in the usual places!

Incense Anthem - 'at the time of offering the incense' (following the Prayer of Oblation after Consecration and before the intercessions and communion)

Great Introit - after the Offertory 'when the holy vessels with the bread and wine are being placed upon the altar, and the incense lighted....'

The rousing 'Gloria Patri' sung at the end of the Great Introit was also sung at the end of the service, after the Te Deum and before the Benediction. Whilst listening to it (and singing along), I found myself involuntarily raising my hands to heaven........well, this was one of the first 'charismatic' churches!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by stranding (# 9019) on :
 
Bishop's Finger wrote:

quote:

---

... CD featuring music written for the Church is now available from the Friends of the Mansfield Traquair Centre...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blueflash:
I was taken round inside Albury Church about 2-3 years ago, and found it all most beautiful. More of the size of a "parish church" than the cavernous interior of Gordon Square, and more friendly. Everything is of the highest quality construction and well cared for and kept exactly as original. There are beautiful colourful windows and intricate painted patterns on the wall.
(...) To one side of the Church and ajoining is the Chapter House where the Apostles had their deliberations and a "scribe" recorded them.
On the other side are modest but elegant rooms with desks and chairs, where the visitor's book is kept.
The only thing lacking is a guide to the history, furniture and rich symbolism.

---

I am amazed: is it actually possible to visit the church? I always thought that getting inside Fort Knox would be much easier...
Did you make any pictures from the inside of the church? (If so: Please don't miss the hidden question... )

Who is caretaker of the church? Did you see the library? Any idea whether the original liturgical dresses are still kept?

Yes, a book about the Albury church's history, furniture and symbolism is loooong overdue!

Mr. J.M. Lickfold has written a book "Notes on the architectural features and furniture" (contains many photos) about the Cath Ap Church in Gordon Sq, in 1935. Should someone reading this have a spare copy... (another hidden question )

Peripatekos
 

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Posted by Blueflash (# 9014) on :
 
Referring to Peripatekos' questions:

There will always be someone who can get into any Fort Knox if they wear the right badges, carry the right key and know the password. Otherwise what is it there for?

The caretaker is Mrs Ford, next door.

I was requested not to photograph inside (ladies are obviously requested to wear headcoverings also) so I only have photos of outside.

There was probably a library in the study, but I would think that most of the books and vestments would be at Gordon Square.

But would you hide your pearl of great price inside or outside a stronghold?
 

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