Thread: Hell: Bad parenting 101 (formerly Control your spoiled brat, please!) Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
This story has been raising eyebrows this side of the pond. For fifteen minutes, an entire plane was delayed because a three year old refused to sit in her seat. She was hitting her parents, who were being magnificently ineffective. They were all asked to leave the plane. The airline has since apologized, refunded their money, and offered them free tickets anywhere. So - there's the reward for having a kid who runs the show.

The parents said "kids are kids". It's hard enough raising three well-mannered children without having other parents basically acting like their kids are entitled to disrupt the lives of 115 people trying to go somewhere.

All children need to learn that there are times when they are not the center of the universe. That's most of the time, in fact. I'm sick to my death of entitled kids and their hopeless parents. Your kids don't need you for a friend. They need parents.

[changed thread title to accurately reflect my intention in ranting. Because I'm an admin and I can. ]

[ 04. April 2007, 13:39: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
 

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Posted by Jimmy B (# 220) on :
 
Great - what does the airline do? Reward them.

Refunding their money *or* giving them tickets for the same destination at another time would have been sufficient.

They had their money refunded *and* they got free tickets.

~Waiting for avalanche of parent-coached toddler tantrums from ppl trying to exploit the system!~
 

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Posted by Pax Romana (# 4653) on :
 
The flight attendants did the right thing. Nobody has the right to hold up a plane with 115 people on it just because of a restless three-year-old.

It was not the fault of the child. The parents needed to exercise some control.

Maybe I am showing my age here, but I was NEVER allowed to disrupt things like that when I was little, and I was absolutely never allowed to hit my parents. And look how I turned out!



Pax Romana
 

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Posted by Frustrated Farmer (# 10782) on :
 
If someone who is not a parent, but was a child at one time might be allowed to comment...

If you want to have children, that is fine with me. HOWEVER, if you have children, please raise them and be a parent and not their best friend. I get very disgusted at children who do not receive effective discipline from their parents and then are let out into the streets.

If I had been running the airline, I would have given the money back and informed them that we did not desire any of their patronage in the future.
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.

From the article, it sounds like the crisis and the delay were both caused by idiot cabin staff. Three year-olds throw tantrums. Even the ones who have strict parents. All the cabins staff I've ever seen deal with this remarkably common sort of situation de-dramatise and offer concrete tips for getting the kid into the seat. It sounds like on this occasion they shouted at the parents from the aisle while waving a large stopwatch in their faces. I hope the got career counselling and are now working somewhere that their hatred of children can be put to good use. An English restaurant for example.
 

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Posted by Izzybee (# 10931) on :
 
While I do want to give this family the benefit of the doubt (wondering if perhaps their child has a disability that makes things tougher on them, or makes it harder for the child to relate to bucking into a seat restraint), I have to say that as a mother of a 5 year old who flys fairly regularly, I wonder how they get her into a car seat when they're taking her anywhere. Flying in a plane is the exact same concept, but with the added freedom (certainly in my daughter's mind) that she doesn't have a five-point harness, just a tiny lap-belt that makes her feel very grown-up indeed.

Having read the story linked to above, it seems that the parents actually argued with the flight attendants about whether she should have to wear a seat belt or not, asking whether she could just sit on her mother's lap instead. That's one thing I've always tried not to do - argue with someone about my childs safety, or the procedures of any place we happen to be visiting, and especially while my daughter is watching. How does she grow up listening to people who are telling her what she needs to do if she feels that she can overrule any authority whenever she chooses? There are some times in life where negotiation is not appropriate, and that is generally when you're at the mercy of someone elses rules - in this case the FAA.

This really irritates me. I've always gone out of my way to make sure my daughter causes the least possible problems to anyone we happen to be on a plane with. It takes preparation, planning, and a whole lot of attention to my daughter and her behavior (and on one memorable occasion, some childrens benadryl). The result of this is that not only do my fellow passengers have as pleasant a journey is possible on a transatlantic coach flight, but my daughter has a better time too. Structure is a good thing.
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 

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Originally posted by Izzybee:
The result of this is that not only do my fellow passengers have as pleasant a journey is possible on a transatlantic coach flight, but my daughter has a better time too. Structure is a good thing.

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Originally posted by Otter:
Count me in on the "angry that the airline rewarded the family" group.

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Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.

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Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.

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Originally posted by Melon:
That's marvellous. Next time I see a kid screaming in agony because he has a cold and his ears won't clear properly during take-off, and all the other passengers are making soto voce comments about the parents, I'll make sure I tell those parents that their child needs more structure.

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Originally posted by Laura:

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Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.

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I love children, and you can go to Hell for suggesting that someone who thinks children deserve good parenting hates children. Oh, we're already there. Anyway, apparently you think the way to "love" children is not to teach them how to behave and to be considerate of others.

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Ah, but at the tender age of three it is abusive to require anything of the little sweetums. Wait 'til they are in nursery school, better yet kindergarten, to get someone else to rein them in. Saves wear-and-tear on the poor, beleaguered parents.
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 
Clairvoyant or what? From another version of the story:

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Her mom thinks it may have been because of the ear surgery Elly underwent earlier this month, and perhaps her memory of the discomfort and ear pressure she endured during the plane’s descent into Florida.

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Originally posted by tessaB:
I do remember flying with a two year old and being offered an extender strap for my seat-belt so that she could sit on my lap during take-off and landing (the noisiest and so scariest part of the flight for children.) Is it so hard to work around these problems?

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Originally posted by Melon:
But you're right, Laura, the parents should just have beaten her senseless for the good of the other passengers.

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Originally posted by Melon:
Clairvoyant or what? From another version of the story:

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Her mom thinks it may have been because of the ear surgery Elly underwent earlier this month, and perhaps her memory of the discomfort and ear pressure she endured during the plane’s descent into Florida.

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Recently post-operative child, anticipation of ear-ache following bad experience of outward flight. But you're right, Laura, the parents should just have beaten her senseless for the good of the other passengers.

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Originally posted by Josephine:
It does sound as though part of the problem was that the child was not seated next to either parent, but was sitting on the row in front of them. One thing the flight attendant could have done (and perhaps should have, and maybe did) was asked for volunteers to swap seats so that the child was seated between her parents. That might have solved the problem with less drama for everyone.

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Originally posted by Izzybee:
If a cop pulls me over and my child isn't buckled in, I can't give him a story about how the kid doesn't like it.

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In fact, there was an awful accident lately nearly where a child had been badly injured because she just wouldn't stay in her child seat and so the parents just let her roam the car, the way we all did in the olden days. It's a safety issue, at least for cars, and in the air it certainly can be, too.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
[crossposted with Laura and others, so a bit of repetition here]

Melon, your peculiar confusion is that anyone's blaming the child. Whatever was making the kid cry doesn't really matter, in this case, because the long and short of it is that the parents didn't handle it right. If the child was crying for a good reason, the parents should helped her there if possible or taken her off the plane to help her elsewhere if necessary. If the child was cryign for a bad reason, the parents should have used appropriate* discipline to force the child to sit in her seat or have taken her off the plane to handle the situation somewhere else.


*note I said appropriate here, so don't pretend I said beat senseless here, that's just what Laura does when her kids won't eat their vegetables

[ 30. January 2007, 18:24: Message edited by: Gwai ]
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 
Apologies in advance for injecting some more inconvenient facts into everyone's invective, but this article says that the reason given for removing the family was that the child had assaulted another passenger (ie her mother ) and that the attendant "helping" spent the whole time with a walky-talky pressed to her ear. The outward flight went fine (and the mother had lots of colouring books, which is structure, which is A Good Thing, right?)

And the company statement says

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We do believe the situation could have been handled differently... We will use this case as a means to train our agents on dealing with this type of situation on our flights... While there are FAA regulations that mandate all passengers have to be securely fastened in their seat belts before a plane can depart, we need to work with our customers in situations like this to help them — and that is what we will focus on.

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Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.

From the article, it sounds like the crisis and the delay were both caused by idiot cabin staff.

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Three year-olds throw tantrums. Even the ones who have strict parents. All the cabins staff I've ever seen deal with this remarkably common sort of situation de-dramatise and offer concrete tips for getting the kid into the seat. It sounds like on this occasion they shouted at the parents from the aisle while waving a large stopwatch in their faces.

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Originally posted by Gwai:
If the child was crying for a good reason, the parents should helped her there if possible or taken her off the plane to help her elsewhere if necessary.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You are taking what the brat's family is supposed to have said at face value. Were you on the plane?

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Originally posted by Melon:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You are taking what the brat's family is supposed to have said at face value. Were you on the plane?

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No, but the airline appear to agree with me.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The airline are doing what every big commercial organisation does: making itself look as sweet as possible.

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Originally posted by Melon:
Apologies in advance for injecting some more inconvenient facts into everyone's invective, ...

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Originally posted by Gwai:
*note I said appropriate here, so don't pretend I said beat senseless here, that's just what Laura does when her kids won't eat their vegetables

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Originally posted by Melon:
(and the mother had lots of colouring books, which is structure, which is A Good Thing, right?)

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Originally posted by Laura:
Melon appears ready to brand me an advocate of child abuse for suggesting that in order to fly, a child should be strapped into a seat even over her protests.

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Originally posted by Izzybee:
In my mind, structure is preparing your child for the flight - talking to them about what to expect and how they should behave appropriately, making sure that they can easily follow your directions when the time comes.

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Originally posted by Smudgie:
What struck me was that the child was in a seat in front of the seats of the parents. Why was she not sitting alongside one of them and the other parent sitting separately if the only seats available were in twos? A lot of this situation might have been avoided if that were the case.

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Yes, I was thinking that myself. This was not right at all.

If the parents were sitting together, they screwed up bigtime, because one of them should have been sitting with the child.

If they ended up seperated, they could have pressed the handy call button and asked for assistance from staff.

If they knew the child had ear issues, they should have consulted their doctor and asked for advice on mitigation for flights (Benadryl, hard candies, etc.)

Where staff training comes in is that staff should have been able to do a quick assessment (in the absence of parents being unable to articulate this for themselves) and ask for volunteers to move seats. Once I was on a Southwest flight and the older child* seated next me away from family started crying. The flight attendant was on it like white on rice and I swapped seats with momma pretty fast to spare the plane an unhappy child.

* He looked to be about five. SWA allows parties travelling with under-5s (maybe under-6s) to pre-board precisely so the tinies can get settled properly, although if they were late at the gate, they were SOL.

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It is not necessarily child-hating to expect a child to be raised to behave in a way that keeps them safe, sociable and aware of behaviour boundaries. There is too much information missing from this news story to form a clear judgement on the situation.

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Originally posted by Melon:
If you have a parent each side and a third person to do up the belt (which means putting down the walky-talky), it might just work, otherwise the only solution is a negotiated solution.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[tangent] I used ridicule with the most tantrum prone toddler of ours. "Call that a tantrum? I've seen hamsters throw better tantrums than that" or similar. Raised a few eyebrows in Sainsbury's.

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Hellooooooo? Maybe you can still wander around American airports as if they are shopping malls, but getting off a plane that is prepared for take-off in Europe would delay the plane for far longer than it would have taken to calm down the three year-old.

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Originally posted by Melon:
If you have a parent each side and a third person to do up the belt (which means putting down the walky-talky), it might just work, otherwise the only solution is a negotiated solution.

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One of the problems around here is that saying or doing anything to another person's child is likely to get you smacked.

When I was a kid, it was generally accepted that if anyone bigger than you told you to quit misbehaving, it was a good idea to listen. That meant that I could tell the kid in the grocery store pulling the boxes off the shelf to knock it off, and the parent would back me up, and usually be thankful for the help.

These days, there's a good chance that they'll yell at me for talking to their kid or interfering with their parenting or calling them a bad parent when I was just trying to help them out a bit.

On the plus side it fuels the reality TV industry, since I think there are now half a dozen nanny and wife swap programs about people trying to get their kids back under control.

The airline no doubt has a policy about how to handle unruly passengers. It realizes that the policy can't be used with kids the same way it is with adults. They have yet to develop a policy for handling unruly kids, but will soon. And in the meantime they're trying to make everyone happy.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

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Originally posted by Qestia:
When our little one is pitching a fit we often ask him "How's that working for you? Getting what you want yet? No?" I feel mean... but it sometimes works.

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Originally posted by Gwai:

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Hellooooooo? Maybe you can still wander around American airports as if they are shopping malls, but getting off a plane that is prepared for take-off in Europe would delay the plane for far longer than it would have taken to calm down the three year-old.

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Because OHMIGOD! What if they had to be put onto another plane, that would be the ENDOFDEWORLD! Oh wait, that happenned anway after much misbehavior on the parents' parts (and, if the airline refused to reseat, on the flight attendant's parts.)

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Originally posted by saysay:
Was the kid actually seated in front of the parents, or was she just sitting (on the floor) in front of the parents when they were asked to leave the plane?

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Originally posted by Gwai:
But in the end, I gather they did get removed from the flight, so that delay must have happenned anyway.

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Actually, part of the shock! horror! what a horrible thing for the airline to do! aspect of the story is that their bags flew on without them, leaving them stranded with just their carry-ons for a day until they could get another flight.

Bags are supposed to travel with their people but sometimes they get separated - it's happened to me both in the US and in France.

[ET use right words]

[ 30. January 2007, 20:50: Message edited by: saysay ]
 

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Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
art dunce - thats the reply I would like to have written!!

*arent cross posts wonderful!*
 

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Posted by Choirboy (# 9659) on :
 
I'm a terrible parent.

I lose my patience and physically force them into their car seats, being at my wits end and having no alternative. Then I try to calm them down, but that might work and it might not - certainly will take longer now that I've been brutal. So we'd leave more or less on time but it would be far noisier for far longer.
 

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Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Let's all blame the parents, because if a child has tantrums that the parents can't control, it's clearly their faults. If only they had begun smacking the child harder and earlier, it would never have tantrums again.

Because, of course, the only children that have repeated tantrums are ones that are parented poorly.

You people are either sadists or clueless about children, especially difficult-to-parent ones.

[ 30. January 2007, 21:17: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gwai:
Melon, do you know many companies that like bad PR? Because I don't. No shit they're making nice. That's not an admission of fault. Ask any lawyer.

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Because OHMIGOD! What if they had to be put onto another plane, that would be the ENDOFDEWORLD! Oh wait, that happenned anway after much misbehavior on the parents' parts (and, if the airline refused to reseat, on the flight attendant's parts.)

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
... the Excited Snakes ...

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Originally posted by Melon:
If I tried to get off a plane voluntarily at that point in a European plane journey, I'd expect to find myself wearing handcuffs. If that sort of thing is the norm in the US, expect more planes to hit more buildings at any point in the future.

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Originally posted by Emma.:
Melon sweety - what would *You* do if your kids were doing that? Or do they regularly tantrum and you just expect the world to revolve around them??

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
I'm not a Frequent Traveller, but I was under the impression that once you give your baggage to the people at the front desk, you're supposed to get on that airplane, full stop. And if you don't, then they have to find and pull your baggage off it while everybody waits.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
Let's all blame the parents, because if a child has tantrums that the parents can't control, it's clearly their faults. If only they had begun smacking the child harder and earlier, it would never have tantrums again....

You people are either sadists or clueless about children, especially difficult-to-parent ones.

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Originally posted by Laura:
Right. Because smacking them was what everyone was suggesting.

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Originally posted by Melon:

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Because OHMIGOD! What if they had to be put onto another plane, that would be the ENDOFDEWORLD! Oh wait, that happenned anway after much misbehavior on the parents' parts (and, if the airline refused to reseat, on the flight attendant's parts.)

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If I tried to get off a plane voluntarily at that point in a European plane journey, I'd expect to find myself wearing handcuffs. If that sort of thing is the norm in the US, expect more planes to hit more buildings at any point in the future. [/QB]

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So the French generally say plane when they mean jail?
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Nothing in any of the articles linked so far suggest that the plane's 15 minute delay was caused solely by the time it was taking to get the child seated and seat-belted. They read to me like "we're already 15 minutes late, so we're not going to apply any more patience to anything else going on the flight." If so, that's an over-reaction.

Applying the "no hitting other passengers" rule to a child who has hit her mother sounds lunatic. Not that I support children hitting their parents, nor parents their children, but let's get some proportion here about which situations pose dangers to the physical safety of the crew and other passengers.

If flight attendants appeared out of nowhere the very first time to say "get her in her seat now", then at most did some off-scene consulting, and then returned to say "off the plane, now" -- that is a very poor way to handle it, and TransAir is right to be saying they'll be looking at improved ways to handle things in future.
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 

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Originally posted by Melon:
The plane took off 15 minutes late. In that time they got the family off the plane, and they probably missed their slot too, so the delay caused directly by the behaviour of the child was, what, two minutes?

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
FWIW generally only the Captain of the plane can throw people off, so I think it was more than the cabin crew with the walky talky making the decision.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
What everyone was suggesting is that it was assuredly the parents' fault (see thread title). That's fucked up.

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Originally posted by Josephine:
While the plane is cleared for takeoff, the flight attendants have control of the plane. That means that, at the gate, they, not the captain, are the ones with the legal authority to throw people off the plane.

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Originally posted by chicklegirl:
The trick is to stack the deck in you and your child's favor by avoiding situations that can trigger a tantrum in the first place. Tantrum prevention requires a keen understanding of your child's temperment, what kind of mood they're in, if they're tired/hungry/ill--and then realistically planning your own activities to accomodate that.

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Originally posted by Josephine:
While the plane is cleared for takeoff, the flight attendants have control of the plane. That means that, at the gate, they, not the captain, are the ones with the legal authority to throw people off the plane.
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Which makes sense. I suppose the Captain is in charge while the plane is in the air or taxiing, when throwing people off might be more problematic.

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Originally posted by Erin:
Then again, my mother would have tanned my hide so badly I would still not be able to sit down if I'd pulled a stunt like that.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
OK, so let's leave aside the issue of fault. The flight crew's responsibility to fly the plane safely, which includes getting everyone on board to wear a seat belt. The parents' responsibility is... what, exactly? OliviaG

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Originally posted by MouseThief:

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Originally posted by Laura:
Right. Because smacking them was what everyone was suggesting.

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What everyone was suggesting is that it was assuredly the parents' fault (see thread title). That's fucked up.

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It's funny how one can read things differently from others. I got the gist that some people - rather than 'everyone' - were suggesting that the behaviour of a very young child might actually be the responsibility of its parents. We all have faults and failure to control a child might or might not be one of them; but surely a parent could never reasonably wish to distance themselves from their responsibility for what their very young children do and the consequences? Maybe it's a fine line, though.

I was 2 and a half when I first went on a plane, with my 4 year old brother and my mother; a completely new and rather terrifying experience and as it happened we were very well behaved apart from extensive use of the 'boke bags' . But whether we had behaved well or not would have been my mother's responsibility, whether fault came into it or not.

What she would not have been responsible sor - beyond the common responsibility we all share - was the safety of the craft and passengers, that belonging to the captain or senior flight attendant; and any situation tipping over into their area of care would have been for them to decide one way or the other in the best interests of all.

It's certainly a pertinent point as to whether or not airline staff gave the parents every opportunity to exercise their responsibility.
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Good grief. The child is three. It seems she's been put in the row in front of her parents, which is particularly stupid on the part of the airline staff (who frankly should know better), but ....

could her daddy not have swapped seats with her and sat in front, so that she could sit in the row behind with her mother? Or her mother, so that she could sit with her father?

Really, in a competition between the airline staff and the parents for who was the most stupid, it's a photo finish.
 

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Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on :
 

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Originally posted by Melon:

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Because OHMIGOD! What if they had to be put onto another plane, that would be the ENDOFDEWORLD! Oh wait, that happenned anway after much misbehavior on the parents' parts (and, if the airline refused to reseat, on the flight attendant's parts.)

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If I tried to get off a plane voluntarily at that point in a European plane journey, I'd expect to find myself wearing handcuffs. If that sort of thing is the norm in the US, expect more planes to hit more buildings at any point in the future.

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Originally posted by Gwai:
So the French generally say plane when they mean jail?

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Originally posted by Saysay:
The parents' suggestions of resolutions (holding the child in their lap) violated the law.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
I'm not convinced that a child who hits a parent poses no threat to anyone else. If I had been on that plane, I'd be thinking the exact opposite: if she hits people she loves, what will she do to people she doesn't like?

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Originally posted by chicklegirl
it's virtually impossible even for a strict disciplinarian to prevent a 3-year-old from throwing a tantrum in the moment it occurs [snip] Once a tantrum begins, you have a few options: relocate to an isolated venue to let it run its course (unwise to try and rush a kid into calming down, or they just get more agitated), ignore the tantrum and hope it will end quickly, or overreact and turn it into a speed-dial call to child protective services. Once the screaming starts, the point of no return has been passed and you're unlikely to be able to stop it no matter how good of a parent you are.

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Originally posted by Erin
Setting aside the whole issue of being beholden to a three-year-old to take it upon herself to behave, there are logistics to consider. When there are over 80,000 flights per day in the US, any delay in a flight's departure can has a massive chain reaction.

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Originally quoted by The Giant Cheeseburger
Melon, any parent who does not make every effort to put the bloody seatbelt on their kid should be locked up for child abuse.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:

PS I'm not convinced that a child who hits a parent poses no threat to anyone else. If I had been on that plane, I'd be thinking the exact opposite: if she hits people she loves, what will she do to people she doesn't like?

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Originally posted by the_raptor:
The people who currently want to blow up planes in mid-flight are quite happy to blow themselves up as well. If bombs are getting on planes you have already fucking lost.

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The problem with the child was either the child's fault or the parent's fault.

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PS I'm not convinced that a child who hits a parent poses no threat to anyone else. If I had been on that plane, I'd be thinking the exact opposite: if she hits people she loves, what will she do to people she doesn't like?

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Originally posted by Callan:
Since when did a small child present a clear and present threat to travellers on a plane? Perhaps Samuel L. Jackson will make his next movie 'Toddlers on a Plane' in which a crime lord insinuates an upset three year old onto an aircraft in an attempt to kill a protected witness. Bring it on, as they say.

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Originally posted by Callan:
OliviaG:

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PS I'm not convinced that a child who hits a parent poses no threat to anyone else. If I had been on that plane, I'd be thinking the exact opposite: if she hits people she loves, what will she do to people she doesn't like?

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Since when did a small child present a clear and present threat to travellers on a plane? Perhaps Samuel L. Jackson will make his next movie 'Toddlers on a Plane' in which a crime lord insinuates an upset three year old onto an aircraft in an attempt to kill a protected witness. Bring it on, as they say.

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Originally posted by Melon:

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Originally posted by the_raptor:
The people who currently want to blow up planes in mid-flight are quite happy to blow themselves up as well. If bombs are getting on planes you have already fucking lost.

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They are happier not to blow themselves up as well, and there are plenty of examples of people trying to blow up planes without blowing themselves up, which is the logic behind "luggage goes with passengers" legislation. Why do you think you can't walk off a plane and leave your luggage in most countries?

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Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

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The problem with the child was either the child's fault or the parent's fault.

---

or the fault of those who control the environment within which parents and child were operating, or, most likely, a combination of all three.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin
Setting aside the whole issue of being beholden to a three-year-old to take it upon herself to behave, there are logistics to consider. When there are over 80,000 flights per day in the US, any delay in a flight's departure can has a massive chain reaction.

---

Yes, of course, which is why the best solution is for everyone to work together to calm the child and their parents (if the parents are totally stressed out, you don't have a hope in hell of calming the three year-old). Almost all my flying happens on budget airlines where missing a slot has big financial consequences, and airline staff calm the passengers, rather than throwing them off the plane. That's partly because they have an IQ in double figures, but also because throwing a family off the plane takes a lot of time, especially if you bother to remove their luggage too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

Then we missed our plane home (entirely my fault, due to getting lost in Buckinghamshire and then missing the Stansted exit on the M23).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
No, the airline don't control the fact the child had an ear operation and found the last flight distressing, nor that they are required to have all passengers belted for take off. Or that the parents couldn't physically restrain the child.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
"luggage goes with passengers" is security theatre, a security measure that doesn't actually make people safer, and often makes them less safe (this describes the majority of airport "security"). It is not that hard to find some stupid fuckhead that wants his 72 virgins.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
I'm a flight attendant and we're already fifteen minutes late -- for whatever reason -- and I have two parents who refuse to pick up their child and forcibly put her in the seat

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
"luggage goes with passengers" is security theatre, a security measure that doesn't actually make people safer, and often makes them less safe (this describes the majority of airport "security"). It is not that hard to find some stupid fuckhead that wants his 72 virgins.

---

You seem to be forgetting that, quite aside from suicide bombers, large parts of the world regularly deal with bombers who prefer not to be blown up. The UK and Spain - just to name two off the top of my head - have to deal with IRA-spinoffs and ETA respectively on an ongoing basis (not to mention random rogues like the Soho nail bomber, the unabomber, etc).

While non-suicide bombers may be not be currently the fashionable worry, they're still there and still blow things up given half a chance. Making things easy for them by letting them put stuff on planes then leg it does not seem like a good idea.

(I'm genuinely surprised that the US has the same luggage rule, because I've personally seen it ignored, even since 9/11. Oh well, you learn something new every day.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
IIRC the PanAm/Lockerbie disaster was caused by luggage checked in and the passenger not boarding - so perhaps it's not quite so theatrical.

---

1. Ignore the brat running around the floor
2. Tell the parents to control their child
3. Physically restrain the child themselves
4. Eject the family from the plane

1. Ignore the brat running round the floor
2. Talk to, reason with and coax the child into the seat
3. Physically restrain the child
4. Leave the plane on their own volition

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
It also completely ignores the fact that there are plenty of just as good terrorist targets, that have next to no security (movie theatre's, shopping malls, the queues before the security checkpoint, etc)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:
Probably because they are only targets if terrorists target them, and, on the whole, they don't. When they have been targetted (as in Northern Ireland), security around those targets increases. The current batch of terrorists seem to want to blow up planes, so it makes sense to try to stop them from blowing up planes. Your complaint would make sense if there were weekly bombings in European or American cinemas. There aren't, so it doesn't.

---

quote:

---

No, it is theatre because if a bomb gets on a plane you have already lost. It isn't that hard to set up a patsy to physically get the bomb aboard (or infiltrate the cleaning staff). Worrying about people leaving bags on planes, takes brain power and eyes away from worrying whether a bomb is on aboard the plane.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:
I've just remembered another option... drug the child. Get some of that headache medicine that makes them drowsy. Would help with the ear problem _and_ reduce tantrum energy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
No it's security because it means that a terrorist cannot board a flight and then suddenly get a phone call from his aged aunt telling him to rush home at once, conveniently leaving a suitcase full of nitroglycerine in the hold. If terrorists of the 'don't blow up your own militants' school of thought want to blow up a plane they cannot use that method of getting luggage on board.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:
From the flight attendants' point of view, here are the options:

1. Ignore the brat running around the floor
2. Tell the parents to control their child
3. Physically restrain the child themselves
4. Eject the family from the plane

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
No it's security because it means that a terrorist cannot board a flight and then suddenly get a phone call from his aged aunt telling him to rush home at once, conveniently leaving a suitcase full of nitroglycerine in the hold. If terrorists of the 'don't blow up your own militants' school of thought want to blow up a plane they cannot use that method of getting luggage on board.

---

If he got a bomb on-board there are half a dozen other scenarios he could pull off that don't involve killing himself.

---

quote:

---

EDIT: I am finished discussing this here, because I realise I am pissing off the purg hosts.*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
I am finished discussing this here, because I realise I am pissing off the purg hosts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
IIRC the PanAm/Lockerbie disaster was caused by luggage checked in and the passenger not boarding - so perhaps it's not quite so theatrical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man With No Name:
So there were three opportunities for three different teams of baggage handlers to note that one passenger had apparently not boarded the flight despite checking his luggage on board.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:
And of course the owner of the bags wasn't a three year-old...

---

quote:

---

...so why would they expect him to be homicidal?

---

Indeed.
 

---

Posted by Iole Nui (# 3373) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
It also completely ignores the fact that there are plenty of just as good terrorist targets, that have next to no security (movie theatre's, shopping malls, the queues before the security checkpoint, etc)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
I am finished discussing this here, because I realise I am pissing off the purg hosts.

---

Are the purg hosts running hell now? Is that a new security measure?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
We also have the responsibility of bringing toys and books, something to drink and a snack,

---

We are not allowed to take drinks on airplanes in this country.
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
We are not allowed to take drinks on airplanes in this country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
We also have the responsibility of bringing toys and books, something to drink and a snack,

---

We are not allowed to take drinks on airplanes in this country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
I am finished discussing this here, because I realise I am pissing off the purg hosts.

---

Are the purg hosts running hell now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrayFace:
I've got news for you - parenting is a project that lasts at least until your kids are adults. You don't start with a clean slate, a perfectly behaved, perfectly intelligent, infinitely educated and trained child that will act with perfect sense and zero disruption to anyone unfortunate enough to encounter said child unless and until one of the stupid or lazy parents makes a mistake and fucks up its pristine perfection.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure all the parents on this thread who hadn't figured this out yet are deeply grateful for your willingness to enlighten them.

---

No charge for the service.

It's a slippery slope though. It starts off with complaints about kids on planes, and before you know it you're sunk in the depths of moaning at us for putting our kids in buggies.

 

---

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
We are not allowed to take drinks on airplanes in this country.

---

That does make sense: the drink is the favourite weapon of the homicidal three year-old. If a toddler can spill orange juice over those she loves, just think what she could do to other people!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
If only. Because then you'd have to provide some support for your half-assed opinions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
It's a slippery slope though. It starts off with complaints about kids on planes, and before you know it you're sunk in the depths of moaning at us for putting our kids in buggies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
If only. Because then you'd have to provide some support for your half-assed opinions.

---

The onus of proof is on those who claim to know that It Was The Parents' Fault, but who have also decided to discount any statements by the parents as well as any statements by the company, ie all the information we have from which to form an opinion.

---

quote:

---

It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
We are not allowed to take drinks on airplanes in this country.

---

That does make sense: the drink is the favourite weapon of the homicidal three year-old. If a toddler can spill orange juice over those she loves, just think what she could do to other people!!!

---

no, no, no Melon - the toddler can now take a drink on board, but only up to a set number of mililetres of it, the bottle of which must be in a bag.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure all the parents on this thread who hadn't figured this out yet are deeply grateful for your willingness to enlighten them.

---

No charge for the service.

It's a slippery slope though. It starts off with complaints about kids on planes, and before you know it you're sunk in the depths of moaning at us for putting our kids in buggies.

---

It's fine with me if you put your kids in buggies. You can carry them around in shoeboxes for all I care, or push them around in wheelbarrows. Just don't delude yourselves that any of them is "the apple of every grandfather's eye."
 

---

Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
WTF has wheelchairs got to do with it?!?! You do seem to be on a crusade for the world revolving around kids.

Last time I went on a plane those immediate to the exit doors are checked to be able bodied and/or swapped so of a quick exit.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

In my experience, the last people to sit down are always middle aged women without children who do not understand the concept of "stow your baggage safely", and the main role of cabin crew is to stop those women from blocking access to the entire plane for 15 minutes by standing in the aisle checking every single item in their handbags, which, inevitably, are bigger than a family suitcase.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Just don't delude yourselves that any of them is "the apple of every grandfather's eye."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Last time I went on a plane those immediate to the exit doors are checked to be able bodied and/or swapped so of a quick exit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by babybear:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Just don't delude yourselves that any of them is "the apple of every grandfather's eye."

---

Awww Ruth! That was the one bit of that story that I really liked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
We don't know if it was late because everyone had been strapped in already for 15 minutes waiting for one last child to be seated, or if it was 15 minutes late for other reasons already.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pânts:

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
We are not allowed to take drinks on airplanes in this country.

---

That does make sense: the drink is the favourite weapon of the homicidal three year-old. If a toddler can spill orange juice over those she loves, just think what she could do to other people!!!

---

no, no, no Melon - the toddler can now take a drink on board, but only up to a set number of mililetres of it, the bottle of which must be in a bag.

---

Nope. We had a bottle of drink for Alien which we weren't allowed to take on. We were only allowed to if it was a real baby bottle with a teat.

---

quote:

---

Musical instruments are, as an exception, allowed as a second item of cabin baggage, but will need to be screened and passengers should check with their airlines if special arrangements (e.g. purchasing an extra seat) for these large instruments will be required.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
There are gaps that can filled in either way. I'm surprised at the almost universal willingness here to fill in the gaps in the most critical way possible to the family.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
It seems true, clear, and blindingly obvious to most people that a child's behavior correlates precisely and directly with the quality of the child's parents. It's as fundamental and axiomatic a belief as "water is wet" or "the sun rises in the east," and more fundamental and axiomatic than anything most people believe about God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
It seems true, clear, and blindingly obvious to most people that a child's behavior correlates precisely and directly with the quality of the child's parents. ... I don't know why, since it is manifestly false.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Melon, you do realize that Josephine is agreeing with you?

---

Melon would have to exercise a few more brain cells to cotton on to that. Not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't put money on it.
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
I don't take credit for my kids being generally easy going. They probably came that way. But it isn't like parents have no influence on their kids -- come on! There is no self-respecting 3 year old who doesn't know where she can push her parents. If the parents give a lot, she'll push a lot. Kids want to find where your boundaries are. Kids need to find where your boundaries are -- it's part of the process for learning to set your own boundaries when you're older. I've seen calculating behavior in a little relative when he does or says "X" to Mommy -- the look in the eyes that says "this got such a satisfying reaction last time, I think I'll see what happens when I do it again."

So it's both -- the kid and the parents, feeding that ever-turning wheel of happiness and misery that is raising children.

P.S.: Ruth -- the grandfather's comment also made me want to "call God on the big white phone".
 

---

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
Sometimes, you all drive me completely around the fucking bend. It's a good thing I love my fellow Shipmate. *breathe in... breathe out... yes I really do love my fellow Shipmate...%^$%^&*

why do these things always have to be either/or?

I love children. especially my own. (really, I'm pretty lukewarm on everyone else's) but the parents needed to be better parents in this situation, end of story.

I have flown with a 3-year-old. it fucking sucks. end of story. even Mother of the Year is ready for a padded room after that experience.

before I go there, a quick reality check- airlines are not public facilities and no one on the freaking planet has any right to be on a plane and fly. they are private carriers, and if the owners say you don't get to play, tough shit. let's just be very clear on that. if some 3-year old warps out in my place of business and can't follow the rules, I can tell the parents to get the kid out of there and I don't need to justify it to the world.

okay, moving on.

there are tantrums and there are tantrums. not all three year olds have mastered this art - I'd even say most are green amateurs. I have three children. all of them pulled the tantrum card in their threes. only one earned the title of Grand Master. (Hi Chasee!) As a parent, you may think you've seen tantrums and can handle them, but you may have been dealing with your garden variety toddler.

take my word for it. After being trained by the Queen of Tantrums, my boys had no chance of getting away with anything.

The thing is - that kid may very well have been completely off-the-deep-end warping out, which is a massive stress to anyone within the same time zone - this still doesn't justify the parent's not handling it in a way that minimizes the impact on others.

they know their kid. kid has a tantrum issue? plan for it. bring benedryl if necessary. (shut up. even some doctors recommend this) don't fly with said tantrum-prone child. don't fly if kid is recovering from ear surgery (what the FUCK???).

Chasee was like this. I tried taking her to movies and quickly learned this was not an option. I quit taking her to movies. period. what's more, the following two didn't go to movies until they were freaking old enough to handle the responsibility of sitting still and being quiet in a public setting. you just don't go there.

It's not about blaming the kid. there is precious little you can really hold a 3 year old accountable for, you can't even really count on them to control their bladder yet.

the reality is, you know your child, you plan for how they will most likely react to a situation, and you plan for worst-case scenario. personally, I would say you don't put them in a warp-out situation unless you have to. (moving? okay. vacation? hell no)

and the correllary is that the airlines and their staff and the rest of the travelling public did not chose to have your children and does not have to put up with their rotten behavior. Don't wait to be kicked off the plane - if you can't unemotionally control your child, you ask to be let off. (how humiliating to have to be asked to leave!) You make it clear to said child, once you are out of the situation, that their behavior led to these consequences. again, unemotionally - this isn't a fucking drama play, it's life skill training.

and just to be clear - I don't support those judgemental fucks who go around grumbling about how rotten other parents are either.* get some fucking tolerance. have some compassion. a tantrum is sheer parent torture and a violation of human rights. (well, it should be!)

three year olds are hell, as has been pointed out already. luckily, they are still cute while sleeping - it keeps them alive. So, the world needs to be patient, and parents need to quit being apologists and start being teachers/guides/disciplinarians/drill instructors.

[tangent]
and furthermore - all the talk of abusive parenting is such a wad of horseshit and just shows how those who brought it up haven't got a real argument to stand on here. Erin's post was illustrative, but not exactly meant to define the terms, you narrowminded twats. I was raised with zero physical discipline in my home. my parents chose this. I never got away with shit behavior and had an extremely strict household. my husband and I have actually tried both styles - discipline with and without spanking. we found that 100 percent of the time with our children, physical punishment did not produce the desired results so we don't do it, and we get better results. That is our family, and our choice, and there are more ways to skin a cat. I'm not making a judgemnt on anyone else's methods.

effective discipline does not mean abuse. please, cease the polarizing bullshit. you're embarrassing yourselves.
[/tangent]

most certainly I've crossposted with the world here. so be it.

* Laura, this isn't directed at you - more towards those people who see your kids running in the grocery store aisle and start making loud remarks to their neigbors about how "some people" should control their spawn, etc etc. I'm sure you know the type.
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
It made me want to hurl. Grandparents who think everyone will adore their grandchildren the way they do are like pet owners who think their pets are just the most specialest animals on the planet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Melon, you do realize that Josephine is agreeing with you?

---

Melon would have to exercise a few more brain cells to cotton on to that. Not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't put money on it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OliviaG:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
It seems true, clear, and blindingly obvious to most people that a child's behavior correlates precisely and directly with the quality of the child's parents. ... I don't know why, since it is manifestly false.

---

My mother used to say, "I don't take any credit, and I won't take any blame." However, she did take responsibility, which, to me, is what all this is about. I'm still really having trouble understanding why it was apparently physically impossible to simply pick her up, put her in the seat and do the seat belt up. She must be one of those Toddler Mutant Ninja Turtles or something. OliviaG

---

Too true, there comes a time in every parent-child relationship when only fear will do. To get their attention that is.

One of the keys to effective parenting is knowing when it matters. Kid screaming in your car, that's a pain but it doesn't matter. Kid screaming on a bus, an inconvenience (but crying kids have been put off buses in this town because they "distract the drivers" ). Kid screaming on a plane and parents unable/unwilling/ whatever to strap the child in is another matter, especilly because the law says they must.

OK, the airline have undertaken to review their methods but is there a chance that Elly's family will learn jack shit from this? I thought not, why should they?

[eta: Melon, I hope your daughter and your family will be OK. ]

[ 31. January 2007, 18:28: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Pânts (# 999) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Melon, you do realize that Josephine is agreeing with you?

---

Melon would have to exercise a few more brain cells to cotton on to that. Not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't put money on it.

---

Very sorry Josephine. I typed that 2 minutes after walking in from accident and emergency, after my daughter broke her arm in two places. I'm sure it's either my fault or my wife's, I just haven't had time to work out which yet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:
I'm sure it's either my fault or my wife's, I just haven't had time to work out which yet.

---

Sorry to hear, Melon. When my son broke his elbow it was nobody's fault. Well, it was his fault for running on the sloppy floors at Food Emporium and my fault for not spotting the spilt milk. Answering what I recognized as the "making sure you're not a child abuser" questions at NY Presbyterian hospital was the punishment.

Though I was later told that what's really my fault,was not suing the Food Emporium to start his college fund. Oh, well.

 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
We don't know if it was late because everyone had been strapped in already for 15 minutes waiting for one last child to be seated, or if it was 15 minutes late for other reasons already.

---

I don't see how that matters. Even if the plane had been delayed for 15 minutes due to the mechanics having to duct-tape the wings in place, the parents still had those 15 minutes (plus the previous 30, at least) to deal with the child.

---

Because the chain of events leading to the final event, matters.

There's a difference between a plane running on normal time, or even time to spare, where everybody gets boarded in stately order, and each wave has had time to get seated and stowed before the next rush of people comes down the aisle, and all the final problems of figuring out where to stash all the carry-ons has been taken care of, and one family is noticeably unable to get with the program even after several reminders by the cabin crew and offers of whatever appropriate assitance ("appropriate assistance" = "whatever is going to most likely going to get everyone buckled in safely in the least amount of time without precipitating a battle of walkie-talkie wills"),

vs.

a plane that arrives late, everyone is rushed on pell-mell, where even if the families with children get on first there's a continual hurried chaos of people scrambling to get on, such that anyone who has more difficulty getting them seated the hell down and buckled in has that difficulty compounded.

Not that this was necessarily at one extreme or the other, but where on the spectrum was it?

How do you know they had at least 45 minutes to deal with the child?
 

---

Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
comet: If I wanted to have babies, I'd want you to raise them. OliviaG
 

---

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OliviaG:
comet: If I wanted to have babies, I'd want you to raise them. OliviaG

---

thank you.

I determined awhile ago that the world would be a better place if it were all run my way. unfortunately, the powers that be aren't listening to me. what's with that?
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Well, when my arm got broken the first time it was DEFINITELY my father's fault, as he was the one who slammed the car door on it. It's been more than 25 years and I still get fabulous mileage out of it.

Why am I assuming they had nearly 45 minutes? They weren't making a connection, so there was no frantic dash from one end of Terminal A to the ass end of Terminal B. Every US airline, without fail, allows families to "pre-board" in order to get settled. Now, if they weren't ready to board when the airline called for families that is SO DEFINITELY their fault, because there was nothing holding them up besides their own stupidity.
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pânts:
What the fuck you doing here then? Shouldn't you actually be spending time with her rather than wasting time playing on your computer. Probably was your fault, not your wifes, because you were on the computer rather than 'watching' her.

---

You're right, I should have been blogging.

Your comment illustrates all that is wrong with this structured parenting claptrap. I was walking towards casualty within 2 minutes of my daughter walking in the door, because broken limbs count as a priority in our household. I was willing to spend as much time there as necessary, because that's what parents do.

But once I got back home, there was no crisis, so why manufacture one? We walked to casualty because that's what people do when there's no crisis, and "no crisis" is the message I wanted to send. There were no tears, a lot of questions and a faltering explanation of the discovery of x-rays that made me realise that I need to refresh my memory on that score.

I'm sure I should be making a huge fuss in the hearing of my daughter about whether the bones will set right and phoning distant relatives who did a year of medical school to check that my child is receiving the very best treatment and and and...

And this would stress out my daughter, which would give me an opportunity to show my magistral parenting skills in consoling her, and then I'd have to phone up everyone I know to tell them how well I coped, and maybe start a couple of prayer chains, and then I could go to bed feeling very proud of myself.

But I'm afraid it's not our way. We deal with stuff and move on. And that's the kind of blasé attitude that makes you look like a really bad parent in the eyes of the structured felt tip brigade. Because structured parenting is all about demonstrating how hard you are working to do what your average cocker spaniel does naturally and without wax crayons. Your spectacular display of commitment to the task means that no-one had better dare criticise you, and that you get to criticise everyone who isn't trying as hard as you. It never occurs to structured parenthood fanatics that maybe they have to try so hard because they have no natural aptitude for relating to children.
 

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Posted by Pânts (# 999) on :
 
Slacker. You should now be setting up a prayer chain that her arm will heal without the need for plaster.
 

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Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :
 

quote:

---

Comet wrote:
and one more thing, dammit, what kind of freak allows the airline to seat their child away from themselves? what the fuck is the matter with these people?

ahem.

thank you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Of course, I can't be sure what the parents were saying because the kid was squirmy, screaming, and slapping her mother's head during the entire interview -- which makes me wonder about what kind of parents push a child into the 15-minutes-of-fame spotlight like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:
We deal with stuff and move on.

---

Then your daughter's accident doesn't really explain your failure to figure out that Josephine was agreeing with you.

I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.
 

---

Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:

quote:

---

Comet wrote:
and one more thing, dammit, what kind of freak allows the airline to seat their child away from themselves? what the fuck is the matter with these people?

ahem.

thank you.

---

In a TV interview, the parents made it sound as it they were all sitting together and that the child was on the floor in front of their feet. Of course, I can't be sure what the parents were saying because the kid was squirmy, screaming, and slapping her mother's head during the entire interview -- which makes me wonder about what kind of parents push a child into the 15-minutes-of-fame spotlight like that.

---

 

---

Posted by Hermes66 (# 12156) on :
 
It's threads like this which remind me why I chose not to procreate.

Thank you all!
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.

---

We don't know that, and you look stupid attacking them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:
In my experience, the last people to sit down are always middle aged women without children who do not understand the concept of "stow your baggage safely", and the main role of cabin crew is to stop those women from blocking access to the entire plane for 15 minutes by standing in the aisle checking every single item in their handbags, which, inevitably, are bigger than a family suitcase.

---

It's good to be reminded from time to time who the middle-aged women haters are.

In my experience of travelling it's occasionally families with very young children and older people - quite naturally, I'd say - who take their time to settle down, and who need a little extra assistance here and there. I try not to hate them because in the case of the former travelling with youngsters can be stressful, and in the case of the latter I shall very soon be one of their number.

Anselmina: that awful thing ie, a middle-aged woman without children, but who knows how to pack for travel and is more than capable of looking after herself, and who reckons she's not the only one amongst this category who have learnt how to travel efficiently without becoming a burden on the worthier younger public.

---

Mm. Well said.

Great rant too, comet.
 

---

Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
They obviously failed the Old School method: a rolled up sock and stout length of duct tape.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
Please explain how you know

---

quote:

---

Let's all blame the parents, because if a child has tantrums that the parents can't control, it's clearly their faults. If only they had begun smacking the child harder and earlier, it would never have tantrums again....

You people are either sadists or clueless about children, especially difficult-to-parent ones.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
and one more thing, dammit, what kind of freak allows the airline to seat their child away from themselves?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:

---

So the onus is on me to prove you have no proof they're bad parents? That makes no sense at all.

---

quote:

---

Fact is, you don't know the history here, so you don't know if they're bad parents or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that that's not what I meant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
Please explain how you know

---

Nope, not gonna explain anything to you. It's a waste of energy. And the same goes for you as for Melon -- the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:

quote:

---

Let's all blame the parents, because if a child has tantrums that the parents can't control, it's clearly their faults. If only they had begun smacking the child harder and earlier, it would never have tantrums again....

You people are either sadists or clueless about children, especially difficult-to-parent ones.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Choirboy:
It is a terrible overreaction to say the child has been poorly brought up or these are terrible parents generally based on what there is to read here.

---

quote:

---

R. D. Olivaw said:
I have walked away from full grocery carts to take my children to the car, sat patiently by the side of the road until they would leave their seat belt on, carried them to their room and put them on their beds and let them writhe and scream until they exhausted themselves. I made sure that a tantrum NEVER got them what they wanted. But the time spent waiting was mine and mine alone....not 160 people trying to live their lives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:
Now I'm really confused. My irony meter went right up to red when I read MT's post. Was it intended to be taken literally?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
Please explain how you know the parents are bad parents. Use specific examples, and medical history of the girl to show that her temper tantruming in this instance and/or their inability to control it was due to their inability as parents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
If anyone displays strong emotions, they automatically lose ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
I know I'll be sorry to get involved in this but how about the eyewitness from BroJames' link and the witness of the girl throwing a fit during the interview Presleytarian watched?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I won't be back here to counter your flailing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Last time I went on a plane those immediate to the exit doors are checked to be able bodied and/or swapped so of a quick exit.

---

Not so on the planes I've been on in the last couple years. There was a court challenge, and now those by exit doors self-certify that they are able to carry out the requirements of sitting by an exit door. That is, "please ask us to find you another seat if you would not be able to carry out these tasks in case of an emergency {tasks listed}."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

• her parents don't know how to cope with it...
• some parents just don't know what resources exist for parents of such children, or even that it is worth it to seek professional help...
• Some don't have the time or energy to do the kind of research it takes to determine what is really going on, what kind of expert you need to take the child to, etc....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OliviaG:
OK, so maybe "bad" is the wrong word. What other words do these points suggest? OliviaG

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
my daughter had temper tantrum "issues" just like this kid. It was my job as a parent to work with that. I chose to avoid certain situations, remove her from others, and battle my way through yet others. just because she had the temperment of a skittish racehorse at the age of three doesn't excuse me from my job as her mother to teach her the approriate behavior for a given situation.

---

quote:

---

I think until we have firm evidence that this child's behavior is strictly due to bad parenting, we need to give the parents a break and the benefit of the doubt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
If you were able to do so, (1) well done, and (2) clearly your child isn't as bad off as some.

---

quote:

---

I'm not saying that there is no way on earth these are bad parents. I'm saying we don't KNOW that, and should be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
If I came across as calling these parents terrible parents, I apologize. I don't think they were terrible parents. I think they were ill-prepared and too lenient.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
If you knew you had an "explosive child", whether or not you knew all the implications and possible treatments, why on earth would you put the child through the stress of an airline flight? Since the child behaved according to witnesses the same way before boarding as well as during the television interview, it's not likely that this was the first episode of uncontrolled behavior. Wouldn't it enter the parent's minds that if the child is subject to uncontrolled explosions, that just possibly an unfamiliar environment, emotional stress from meeting and then leaving grandparents, and being made to sit still for hours might trigger it, and that just perhaps it might be better to stay home and perhaps fly the grandparents up to visit instead?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Melon - I think youre missing the argument...

People arent saying the parents were necessarially the worst parents in the world, but just that ultimately the kid is the parents **responsibility**.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
shut the fuck up, you don't know what you're talking about. there is no such thing as an unguidable, unteachable child.

---

quote:

---

I never said they were bad parents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
my daughter had temper tantrum "issues" just like this kid. It was my job as a parent to work with that. I chose to avoid certain situations, remove her from others, and battle my way through yet others. just because she had the temperment of a skittish racehorse at the age of three doesn't excuse me from my job as her mother to teach her the approriate behavior for a given situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
shut the fuck up, you don't know what you're talking about. there is no such thing as an unguidable, unteachable child.

---

I didn't say unguidable and unteachable. But there are some children that no amount of "guiding and teaching" is going to prevent their having explosions. If you don't know that, then I clearly know more about this than you do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Choirboy:
I don't know about too lenient - we don't really have a time frame. If they had a clear idea (which it seems) that the kid was freaking out because she had had ear surgery and the last flight hurt, I think I'd have a hard time blaming them for not just telling a toddler to just suck it up and force them back into the seat without trying other things first.

---

quote:

---

They talked into walkie talkies while interacting with the parents. And it isn’t clear how much they tried to help the parents calm the child down or how much information they gave them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
I wasn't there, I can't judge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.

---

quote:

---

Nope, not gonna explain anything to you. It's a waste of energy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
shut the fuck up, you don't know what you're talking about. there is no such thing as an unguidable, unteachable child.

---

I didn't say unguidable and unteachable. But there are some children that no amount of "guiding and teaching" is going to prevent their having explosions.

---

quote:

---

If you don't know that, then I clearly know more about this than you do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Hmm - how many flights does an airport have a day? How many kids on each plane? Suppose each plane has *just* one kid flying for the first time/with tempter tantrums..... how will that work if we all work around that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
Overwhelmed? Exhausted? Unable to cope? At wit's end?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Er - and the difference between being able to carry out tasks in case of emergency - ie quickly openeing door and getting ramp down/helping people/whatever it is and what i said is...?!?!?! I think youve just proved my point? Anyway its irrelevant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
Yeah, that's probably the best solution if the child really is uncontrollable. Then again some parents are in serious denial that there's "anything wrong" with their kids. That, however, I won't try to excuse.

---

quote:

---

"We weren't given the opportunity to hold her, console her or anything," Judy Kulesza said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
...

To those who say the most important issue at stake is making this situation comfortable for the entire family, I say poppycock. There are just some places you can't take kids, especially some kids. I had a kid like that, and I rarely ever have played the disability card to make things easier. We took him where we could, or one of us stayed home with him if that was best.

On a much lesser level, I used to see little kids at the flea market, crying in their strollers, miserable because they couldn't get out, weren't getting any attention, bored (literally) to tears. It just wasn't a good place to take a kid. And don't get me started on those gigantic strollers.
...

---

I am so dead tired of parents who drag around their babies looonnnngggg past their bedtime in...malls...movie theaters...everywhere...restaurants.

The baby is so exhausted but the parent(s) refuse to put the needs of the baby before their own. They just ignore the screams of the child...

If you ever have worked in retail...you know what I am talking about. This happens pretty much daily.

My brother has 4 kidlets. I have been around so much they slip and call me "a parent". I have sat outside with a baby on my lap screaming or taken a small child into the van with me...or on a walk when they misbehave. The dad/mom and all us us will volunteer to take a disrupted child away if they disturb the peace.

I do not understand while more parents simply DO NOT GET THIS.

And I concur as an auntie of an asberger kid who used to scream so loud at night when he was 4, the police were called (and left after figuring out he was not being abused).

These parents of the screaming kidlet...well...they

S - U - C - K

PS: GRITS, I love "Poppycock". I am going to borrow that one.
 

---

Posted by WatersOfBabylon (# 11893) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
I would have to say they are "bad parents" simply because they don't know their child or they were unprepared or in denial of her problem. If she has medical and/or emotional issues that are exacerbated by flying, then they had absolutely no right to subject her to that situation.

...

People need to realize that part of parenting is often learning a different lifestyle. You just can't always keep on doing things the way you always have. And if you have a kid that has problems flying, you need to take the car or stay home.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Interestingly I'd say they were bad parents not because t hey handled their child badly--I'd guess they did but one can't prove that from available evidence, I'll admit. They're bad parents because when a disaster happenned they seem to have fought leaving the plane, and they seem to have though they have the right to inflict their problem on others. That's simply rude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mirrizin:
Well, if it was a return flight, then I presume that they must have taken a flight before, and had managed then. If the kid's okay on the flight down, what has changed that renders the flight back impossible?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:

quote:

---

EDIT: I am finished discussing this here, because I realise I am pissing off the purg hosts.*

---

Really? the Purgatory Hosts have mounted a hostile take-over of Hell? When did that happen?

*Translation: I'm losing the argument so I'm not going to play anymore.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck whose pleasant shopping experience around the aisles of Safeway was marred by a tantrum.

People don't have to stop going out in public because they have kids. They can't stop going out.

---

That's all well and good, and I generally don't mind your screaming brat in Publix, but if your satanic spawn cause me to miss my tight connection because you're too entitled to act like the parent in the situation then you can fuck right the hell off.
 

---

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 
But by the age of three kids are old enough to know better. The only three year olds that throw tantrums are the ones who have worked out it's a decent way to get what they want, the ones who turn their parents into slaces. And the best way to stop that is just stop giving them the attention that turns them into spoiled brats.

I know this quite well as I have had a lot of contact with my youth pastor's kids at that age, and also with my cousin who turned three a few months ago. My pastor and his wife are quite strong parents, and not afraid to do things like unplug the TV, take away toys, ignore their kids until they stop and so on. Their kids are as a direct consequence great kids that people like having around at church and so on, even to the point that youth group kids volunteer to babysit them.
My uncle and aunt are shocking in the way they spoil their little brat and will just give her anything to shut her up. She's already quite overweight, she's terribly addicted to sugar so she chucks a fit whenever her blood sugar level drops. She's bound to have major diabetes problems when she's older, especially as her parents are blind to all of that and just swapped doctors when one told them she had major weight and sugar problems. And we don't invite them over for meals any more because we can't handle the stress.

Parenting requires you to make the tough decisions, not just the easy ones to hand over a lolly. If it means you have to put up with tantrums at home instead of feeding them more sweets then that's part of the job. At three years old, kids will quickly stop having tantrums if parents show a bit of backbone, stop giving in to them and start doing the job of a parent not a servant.

X-post: Erin

[ 01. February 2007, 01:32: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Sorry -- rereading this thread reminded me of this. Almost every kid's going to try this at some time or another and maybe catch his parent off guard. However, if it's a habit, the good parent will learn how to deal with it. I know a lot of you loathe James Dobson, but learning to "bend the will without breaking the spirit" is pretty good advice.
 

---

Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
But by the age of three kids are old enough to know better. The only three year olds that throw tantrums are the ones who have worked out it's a decent way to get what they want, the ones who turn their parents into slaves.

---

You're just wrong. Try doing some reading. You might even enjoy it.
 

---

Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Erin, I said I thought the parents in the plane were stupid to sit where they did. But freaking hell, the plane was held up for 15 minutes.

15 minutes. That's all. And evidently no-one tried anything much to find a solution.

My point was that once the tantrum thing has started, there's precious little that a parent can do to just stop it. They can't.

Fucking hell. Check out a few of the tantrums that go on here among grown adults, and see if they calm themselves down nicely because others are watching.

You know, if fellow passengers are really so desperate to get off the tarmac and into the air, they could always say, "Is there anything I can do to help here?" and maybe someone would say, "Well, yes, actually, would you mind swapping seats with this child?" and maybe (just maybe) that would do the trick.

It might not, but it's probably something people could think about instead of just getting all crabby about whether they'll be 15 minutes late.

Everyone in this world is just so damned focussed on themselves and their little bit of space.

cheeseburger, if you think three year olds have it worked out, you are seriously deluded. You haven't even worked out how to behave in public, and how old are you?

[ 01. February 2007, 01:37: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
 

---

Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
Early behavior modification techniques work best for controlling your Hell spawn. Once they have reached 3 years, it's too late... there's nothing left for your sanity short of lobotomy, straight-jackets or shock therapy.

The ex-wife and I agreed, early in our parenting experience, that we would not reward tantrums, screaming, kicking, flailing-about, or any obviously extreme anti-social behavior with any reaction but immediate isolation. It was apparent to us (as it is to any observant parent) that there is a difference between a cranky child who is sick, hungry, uncomfortable from poopy pants, fearful or suffering pain and a cranky child who is frustrated from 'not-getting-their-way', bored, exploring their boundaries or just being a miniature, manipulative butthead. Whatever...

The reaction to a tantrum was an immediate, one-way trip to their room, no argument, no castigating, no hugging, no appeal... door shut, isolation. If they chose anti-social behavior, they chose to act it out alone. At first, the screaming and wailing reached crescendos unheard of outside an opera or slaughter house. As soon as there was silence however, they were immediately picked up and returned to our company. It was amazing how quickly this method reduced the frequency and duration of tantrums. Cruel? Possibly. Effective? Absolutely no doubt. When my sons were old enough to walk and talk, they had become the epitome of polite society and other parents complimented the boys on their remarkable good manners. Screaming fits in public? Never.
 

---

Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Yup, that's a solution, Gort. Actually, my kids rarely mucked up. They're worse now that they're into their teens (that's another thread of its own ) and they don't care if they don't get hugs. In fact, the prefer it that way.

I can't stand most children for very long. I can stand even less parents who sit by and let their children be obnoxious (and plenty do). However, if the children are little, I cut them slack, because it's a mighty steep learning curve.

Obnoxious (truly obnoxious, as distinct from repellent) children are almost always over three. I know a few 9 year old boys I think should be castrated now, before they can breed.
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Everyone in this world is just so damned focussed on themselves and their little bit of space.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Interestingly I'd say they were bad parents not because t hey handled their child badly--I'd guess they did but one can't prove that from available evidence, I'll admit. They're bad parents because when a disaster happenned they seem to have fought leaving the plane, and they seem to have though they have the right to inflict their problem on others. That's simply rude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
... The only seriously bad decision I see evidence of was sending the luggage on while making the family stay back. That would seem to be completely unacceptable.

---

Hrmmph, pip-pip, rauther old chap, cough, hrmmph.

No, Kirke, you pompous, affected sack of hot air, the only "completely unacceptable" bad decision was not airing out the little brat's head with a .45 caliber hole.
 

---

Posted by WatersOfBabylon (# 11893) on :
 
Cheeseburger, I'm glad to see that your vast knowledge of childcare comes from such a wide and plentiful range of experience.

My very limited knowledge comes from working at a preschool, but what I learned there is that no matter the quality of the parents, kids tantrum.

Sometimes because they have learned that they'll get their way, sometimes because they're sick, and sometimes just because they are three years old. It happens.
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
Crying babies in flight don't bother me at all. I either help, or put in earplugs. I assume nothing bad about crying babies or parents of crying kids. But not being able to be strapped in is the problem here.

---

quote:

---

Laura wrote: They can then cry all the way to Sweden if they must, but they should be able to tolerate being strapped in for takeoff. If not, then they really can't be flying, because under current rules, that's the way it works.

---

quote:

---

Left At the Altar wrote: However, the common wisdom for a child who is throwing a tanty is to ignore it and walk away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
If between the two parents they cannot get the kid strapped into the seat and physically restrained long enough to get the damn plane in the air, then the balance of power in that family is fucked all to hell. And I refuse to suffer or be inconvenienced because the parent doesn't want to actually be the fucking parent.

---

quote:

---

But Julie Kulesza said: "We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything.

"Elly was sitting in front of our seat crying," she said in a phone interview. "The attendant motioned to a seat and asked if we purchased it for her."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melbscape:
I do love the idea that if one can't guarantee a perfectly behaved child, one shouldn't fly.

---

quote:

---

Melbscape wrote: I'm trying to imagine what my three year old would be like in an airplane ('planes terrify *me*) in a seat in front of me, away from her parents, being buckled in. She'd have a meltdown, in all likelihood. And I'd ask if I could sit with her, or if she could use a supplementary belt, as has happened the other times I've flown.

---

quote:

---

You can't *make* a tantruming, probably frightened child, sit anywhere, not unless you're physically restraining them. And it sounds like the parents weren't actually allowed to do that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Actually, it's rather odd that you can't hold a three year old for take off and landing, because you can do so for anyone who is 2 years and 11 months and 364 days (or one extra if it's a leap year). I can't really see that it would make a heck of a difference.

But then, I never was one for obeying rules.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I agree that the age restriction seems arbitrary, but some cut-off is necessary. Since lap babies usually fly free, I can imagine some people stacking family members like flapjacks in an attempt to travel on one ticket.

BTW, "belly belts" -- supplemental straps that attach to the parent's lap belt -- aren't allowed on US airlines because of safety concerns during sudden deceleration.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melbscape:
They weigh hand luggage on the way in...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Olivaw:
As for the parents, their choice to go public and thrust this poor kid into the spotlight so that they could kvetch says more about them then the plane incident.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Then your daughter's accident doesn't really explain your failure to figure out that Josephine was agreeing with you.

---

quote:

---

I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
Melon, seriously, what are you going on about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pânts:
What the fuck you doing here then? Shouldn't you actually be spending time with her rather than wasting time playing on your computer. Probably was your fault, not your wifes, because you were on the computer rather than 'watching' her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
If you knew you had an "explosive child", whether or not you knew all the implications and possible treatments, why on earth would you put the child through the stress of an airline flight?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
People arent saying the parents were necessarially the worst parents in the world, but just that ultimately the kid is the parents **responsibility**.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
international flights here have a weight for hand luggage, and also a "shape" for them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
... So effing awful, even my kids said they'll only fly Business Class from now on. I agree that a brat on board is loathesome.

---

That'll be the time the rich parents take their little precious into business class rather than having to sit near the farting lower class scum.
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Professor Kirke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Interestingly I'd say they were bad parents not because t hey handled their child badly--I'd guess they did but one can't prove that from available evidence, I'll admit. They're bad parents because when a disaster happenned they seem to have fought leaving the plane, and they seem to have though they have the right to inflict their problem on others. That's simply rude.

---

No, it's not simply anything. Any one of us would have fought to stay on that plane like they did, asking for one more minute to calm the child. Precisely because they know their own child better than any flight attendants or ship of fools shipmates.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I agree that the age restriction seems arbitrary, but some cut-off is necessary. Since lap babies usually fly free, I can imagine some people stacking family members like flapjacks in an attempt to travel on one ticket.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Has Elly's family been on The Jerry Springer Show yet? I can't wait, they are naturals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by flighty:
sorry about the ranting here...and apologies if i cover previously communicated topics...this is an exceedingly interesting topic
werent they refunded their money AND offered other tickets when it was clear that the airline had no responsibility or requirement to do so? it just strikes me as odd that the parents werent willing to accept alternate travel at the behest of a company that requires accurate schedules to be kept, that they the parents were allowing to be put in jeapordy by not restraining their child?and then going on national television claiming injustice and allowing the viewers aan insight into their child hitting and screaming DURING the interview?
correct me if im wrong, but did the airling commit an illegal act ejecting disruptive and dangerous passengers who were delaying the flight significantly, at least in terms of airline timing?

---

I'd love to see a video of that interview!

What network was it on? Perhaps they post video clips.
 

---

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
More often than not, no one comes in to assist when things get tough and the kids lose their tempers, or get too tired, or get frightened to the point of hysteria. You just trudge on. Tough luck if you are in public at the time, because the only thing anyone around will do, it sit and stare and tut tut.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Does anybody know what happened when this delightful family unit got their free flight and flow off into the sunset.
Did God`s little gift of happiness behave this time thanks to an abundance of Prozak

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Melbscape:
They weigh hand luggage on the way in...

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What do you mean by hand luggage? Carry-on? They only weigh checked bags in the US, and that's only so they can charge you for overweight items. You'd be amazed at what your average dumbass tries to carry on to plane.

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Carry on; yes; it's normally the same in Europe but there are a few exceptions that Emma may have experienced; I've given up being amazed but the majority of dumbasses, by they seem to be getting better...
 

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Posted by jerusalemcross (# 12179) on :
 
An American nanny of a friend used to (legally) dope up the kids whenever she had to take them between the USA and Europe. Worked every time - a very good Swiss liquid stuff that she gave them before the flight and made them just calm enough to be manageable. It doesn't however address the basic issue of teaching kids how to behave in public and setting boundaries which they need. My brother said (when his were toddler terrors) he knew from the attitude of other travellers that he was a pariah when he and wife boarded a plane with TWO toddlers....and they were pretty good at keeping them under control.

And speaking of business class, knowing I've paid all that money and STILL have an uncontrollable screaming brat whacking my seat is just the limit. But the parents are rich so it's OK, inn't it. Thank heavens for BA transatlantic Club Class where everyone has enough private space to defend it.
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Teaching kids to behave in public is something that needs to be started early. However, in my experience, loads of adults don't know how to behalf in public, so what they pass on is just bad manners.

Frankly, I'm a right Hitler with my kids. I am classified as the too-strict mother by many other mothers I know (perhaps because I pull their kids into line too but, damnit, someone has to). However, I believe I have passable children who don't shove, demand, interrupt or be completely painful in the company of others (at home they are not so delightful).

So, I feel that I can quite confidently take them in business class and not annoy the living crap out of jerusalemcross.

In fact, I've been checking out fares just this day. No Jerry Springer riff raff* near me, thank you very much.

*I had some sympathy for the chucked-off family before I heard they'd gone on that dreadful show.

[ 02. February 2007, 01:31: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
 

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Posted by Melbscape (# 11749) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Melbscape:
They weigh hand luggage on the way in...

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What do you mean by hand luggage? Carry-on? They only weigh checked bags in the US, and that's only so they can charge you for overweight items. You'd be amazed at what your average dumbass tries to carry on to plane.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:

Frankly, I'm a right Hitler with my kids. I am classified as the too-strict mother by many other mothers I know (perhaps because I pull their kids into line too but, damnit, someone has to). However, I believe I have passable children who don't shove, demand, interrupt or be completely painful in the company of others (at home they are not so delightful).

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I'm more like Ghandi, but my childen are reasonable, too Ghandi looked better in orange, though.
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Melbscape:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Melbscape:
They weigh hand luggage on the way in...

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What do you mean by hand luggage? Carry-on? They only weigh checked bags in the US, and that's only so they can charge you for overweight items. You'd be amazed at what your average dumbass tries to carry on to plane.

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I don't do a lot of air traveling, so I'm not completely au fait with it all but there *is* a point where one's luggage (be that hand or checked) is weighed. I don't see the problem with popping Junior on a scale and getting an Airline Approved sticker slapped to his forehead.

Maybe they can dole out the Phenergan Pops at the same time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I think that the scales should be pulled out for all things going on board, with payment made accordingly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I think that the scales should be pulled out for all things going on board, with payment made accordingly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pure as the Driven Yellow Snow:
Fantastic.
Sorry sir, but you're ten dollars short.

"Eu, Eu Eu Eughhhh Yech". (Ralph for the Australians)

Free to board sir.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
In fact, I've been checking out fares just this day. No Jerry Springer riff raff* near me, thank you very much.

*I had some sympathy for the chucked-off family before I heard they'd gone on that dreadful show.

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Point of fact. I cannot see a posting which says they appeared on the JSS; just various posters opining that they are the sort of people they would expect to go on it.

This parallels various other turns this thread has taken - in fact, is of the essence of the thread - that Poster A says X, then Poster B comes down like the wolf on the fold, perceiving in A's opinion a gross offense (which may or may not be there).

I don't have a dog - or a child - in this fight, but I have observed that if you want a thread that runs to a couple of zillion pages, all of them hot to the touch, just mention parenting. It's all it takes.
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Yep, parenting and obesity. Recipe for thread success.

(apologies to the family for any false accusation on my part that they appeared on Jerry Springer's dreadful show).

ETA: I don't care what people weigh. I just don't like their flobbily bits oozing onto my seat and pressing against my leg and my arm and .... errrrr.

[ 02. February 2007, 08:41: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
 

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Posted by Iole Nui (# 3373) on :
 
Yeah, well, it's tall people that I hate. Those bastards.

They try to make you feel sorry for them as they squeeze under the overhanging baggage thingy and struggle to jam their unnaturally long legs into the footwell. They two minutes after takeoff they shove their pointy elbows into you, sprawl their bony knees into your footwell and generally sit so far into your seat that you have to travel 2000 miles at a 90 degree angle with your face practically in your other neighbour's lap.

They're the ones who should be made to pay for two seats. At least fat people are squashy.

And don't get me started on people who read broadsheet newspapers that take at least 3 seats worth of room to manipulate adequately.
 

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Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on :
 
Tall and fat, they're the worst.

Except for tall fat people with kids having tantrums. And who don't know grammar as well as I do. Or who know it better.
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Yeah. Fatties and Lankies should be forced to pay double.

Fat Lankies - triple.

Fat Lankies with obnoxious kids or newspapers - banned.
 

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Posted by bradleys (# 11361) on :
 
Broadsheet reading fat lankies with body odour and lap sitting infant who have a window seat and constantly need to get up to go to the toilet.

Ever had one? NOTHING worse!
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Except (possibly) barfing fat ladies.
 

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Posted by the coiled spring (# 2872) on :
 
A couple of years ago was on 10hr flight and there was a 3 year old who kept getting up hitting other passengers. The stewardess was very good.
She told the parents to take themselves and child to place at back of plane and keep the child under control and away from other passengers.
This happened and peace descend for next 9 hours.
 

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Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jerusalemcross:
My brother said (when his were toddler terrors) he knew from the attitude of other travellers that he was a pariah when he and wife boarded a plane with TWO toddlers....and they were pretty good at keeping them under control.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Melon:
(In my earlier account of "Around Europe with a toddler", I skimmed the bit where said toddler chased after the Little Chef cook demanding a kiss goodbye.)

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What a marvellous mental image that conjures. It's not on YouTube, is it?
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Have I shared my eternal annoyance that when people see a small woman they think that she thusly doesn't need (read deserve) all of her seat, so they start sticking knees, newspapers, elbows or thighs onto her seat.
 

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Posted by Izzybee (# 10931) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Melon:
One of the problems I have with my kids as soon as we leave France is their unreasonable expectations that, for example, adults should respond when they say "hello". It's much easier to tell children that their behaviour is upsetting the man in the seat behind if the man in the seat behind hasn't made clear from the outset that he hates children.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Yep, parenting and obesity. Recipe for thread success.

(apologies to the family for any false accusation on my part that they appeared on Jerry Springer's dreadful show).

ETA: I don't care what people weigh. I just don't like their flobbily bits oozing onto my seat and pressing against my leg and my arm and .... errrrr.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:
And don't get me started on people who read broadsheet newspapers that take at least 3 seats worth of room to manipulate adequately.

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Originally posted by Laura:
Look, the real problem is that airplanes have turned into Flying Greyhound Buses of Sheer Hell. If all the seats were bigger, and there was a little more space, and a little better service (for which I'd be willing to pay an extra 50-100/ticket, for sure), then a lot of the stuff that seems intolerable would be able to be brushed off better, like upset kids or fat seatmates. The fact that we're all basically in a torture chamber for eight hours to get to Europe really makes everyone less charitable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
That's unfair on the buses, which are much more comfortable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

quote:

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:
And don't get me started on people who read broadsheet newspapers that take at least 3 seats worth of room to manipulate adequately.

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It says something, probably terrifying, that in the suburb I grew up in we were taught in elementary school how to fold a newspaper so as to be able to read it, including turning the pages, without getting in your neighbour's space. Proper preparation for a generation of dutiful train commuters.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
That's unfair on the buses, which are much more comfortable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
At least planes arrive and depart when they say they will!

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quote:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
You don't have to go through all that ridiculous security crap and you can carry your house keys with you

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quote:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
At least planes arrive and depart when they say they will!

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Remind me what started this thread? Something about a flight being delayed? OliviaG

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

quote:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
You don't have to go through all that ridiculous security crap and you can carry your house keys with you

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What's all this about house keys? Never knew they were banned items on flights - mine are always in my carry on bag.

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IIRC, that temporary insanity was finally stopped after a few people had luggage (labelled with their home address) with their house keys inside stolen. The whole security thing is insane. I've decided I won't participate in security theatre without an Equity contract. OliviaG
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Everybody who has ever been on an airplane knows that, given enough GIN, they would scream as loudly and as longly as any infant/toddler on a flight. Putting that many unpleasant strangers together is a recipe for anarchy.

Moreover, there is an evolutionary imperative at work here: if we strangle screaming children on an airplane now, in a generation, there may be fewer people flying in airplanes, and the airlines will make the seats wider.

Failing that, just keep strangling children on airplanes. We may not live long enough to enjoy the fruits of our labors, but at least we can pay attention to the in-flight movie.
 

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Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I said that I'd be happy for airlines to charge a bit more and provide decent seating.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
Have I shared my eternal annoyance that when people see a small woman they think that she thusly doesn't need (read deserve) all of her seat, so they start sticking knees, newspapers, elbows or thighs onto her seat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
At least planes arrive and depart when they say they will!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wet Kipper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I said that I'd be happy for airlines to charge a bit more and provide decent seating.

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Otherwise known as "premium economy", business class, first class etc, depending on the size of your "bit extra"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I'd like airlines to say, "Well, heck, a significant proportion of our population is large either vertically or horizintally or both, so we need to either make all out seats bigger, or have a portion of the seats bigger so that bigger people can fly with us, without being squashed in, and without squashing their neighbours". But they don't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by calisnenath:
Well I need seats lower down, or with foot rests. I'm only 5 feet tall (1m53) and dangling legs for a 16hour flight to Japan with a baby (well behaved I hasten to add!) was NASTY!

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Originally posted by Cod:
I heard somewhere of someone who genuinely could not fit into his Cockroach Class seat. He was simply too big. The airline upgraded him to Business Class.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amorya:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cod:
I heard somewhere of someone who genuinely could not fit into his Cockroach Class seat. He was simply too big. The airline upgraded him to Business Class.

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I've heard of someone who couldn't fit into an economy seat, so they insisted he purchase a second one.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josephine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I'd like airlines to say, "Well, heck, a significant proportion of our population is large either vertically or horizintally or both, so we need to either make all out seats bigger, or have a portion of the seats bigger so that bigger people can fly with us, without being squashed in, and without squashing their neighbours". But they don't.

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I thought they did -- the portion of seats that are larger are called First Class, and they cost more, but most airlines have them. Don't they?

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quote:

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That happens more often than you might think. I know someone who as a Person of Size (the airlines' PC term)...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josephine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I'd like airlines to say, "Well, heck, a significant proportion of our population is large either vertically or horizintally or both, so we need to either make all out seats bigger, or have a portion of the seats bigger so that bigger people can fly with us, without being squashed in, and without squashing their neighbours". But they don't.

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I thought they did -- the portion of seats that are larger are called First Class, and they cost more, but most airlines have them. Don't they?

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Yes, most all airlines have them, but I've noticed some airlines' First Class seats are actually no wider, or are barely wider, than coach. They're merely much more cushy and trimmed in leather, and the dickhead airplane engineers *still* put the headphone, volume, channel and seat control on the inside of the FC chair arm, where they're oh-so easily reached despite my fat thigh mashed up against them. (sarcasm alert)

ETA: (I've just noticed I'm at 9996 posts. I so do not want to mark my 10,000th post complaining about difficulties flying my fat butt through the not-fat-friendly skies. )

[ 09. February 2007, 05:27: Message edited by: KenWritez ]
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
Help is on the way, KenW! Check out first class accommodation on the new Boeing 777!
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
An economy airfare on Qantas from Australia to Europe or the US will cost between $2,000 and $3,000. A business class airfare, between $9,000 and $12,000. First class will cost about $14,000.

It's not like everyone can just say, "Oh heck, I feel like a bit of space for this trip - I'll go first".
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
I read that the Netherlanders are now the tallest nation, with an average height of 1.83 m (6 ft) for adult males and 1.70 m (5 ft 7 in) for adult females. In 2003, ceiling heights for new buildings were raised to 2.60m (8.5').

It seems that efforts are being taken in the Netherlands to accommodate tall people, but how do they fit in other nation's seats?
 

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Posted by Iole Nui (# 3373) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:
I've noticed some airlines' First Class seats are actually no wider, or are barely wider, than coach.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KenWritez:
ETA: (I've just noticed I'm at 9996 posts. I so do not want to mark my 10,000th post complaining about difficulties flying my fat butt through the not-fat-friendly skies. )

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What was the worst bit, Ken?
 

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Posted by Nats (# 2211) on :
 
If I win the Premium Bonds I am flying all my family to see my parents in Japan 1st Class. Including my toddler and pre-schooler. Just because I will be able to. And I want to go Singapore air now on a nice 777 please!
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Like Gwai and Calisnenath, I find airline seats don't comfortably accomodate my wee short legs. The floor is too far away, and if I sit right back in the seat the end of the seat is in the wrong place for my knees. Eventually my legs go numb. Best to put some bit of luggage (or possibly a small child) on the floor for my feet to rest on, but the airline staff make you move it if they spot it.

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Originally posted by comet:
up here in "small plane country" you are expected to disclose your real weight, and if you try to shine them on they pop you on the frieght scale. in a small plane, it makes a huge difference. weight has a direct impact on fuel burned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Spouse:

quote:

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Originally posted by comet:
up here in "small plane country" you are expected to disclose your real weight, and if you try to shine them on they pop you on the frieght scale. in a small plane, it makes a huge difference. weight has a direct impact on fuel burned.

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Yeah, we experienced that at check in for a flight on a 9-seater in Florida. The gate staff panicked when a transfer passenger turned up without having checked in beforehand. They had to bring the pilot out to check that he wasn't too heavy to fly!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Period pain?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Period pain?

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No, people pain.

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I was going to suggest that it was the kind of period pain related to the period of time from logging on to the Ship to host, to the time of logging off !
 

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