Ship of Fools: Purgatory: So why isn't the Christian life a joy?

Thread: Purgatory: So why isn't the Christian life a joy? Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

This would have been a tangent on the original thread, so I'll post it here.

This quote from that thread has got me thinking:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Yes younger [monks] may resent older ones coming in, just like some long time Christians resent late life converts who "got to screw around first." The attitude betrays a dislike of the chosen life. If the chosen life is a joy, the ones who started young would not resent but instead feel sorry for those who came late in life and missed out on so many joyful years.

Now, I don't think I'm alone in resenting those who "got the call" much later in life than me. It certainly does feel like they got to have their fun and be Saved while I had to knuckle down and behave myself almost from the start. I've found myself sometimes refusing to evangelise friends, because I feel that if I succeeded I would make their lives worse. But that can't be right, can it?

So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it? Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?

Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful? Or is hoping against hope that one day church, charity and chastity will be joyful to us in and of themselves all we can do?

[ 10. October 2009, 01:05: Message edited by: RooK ]

Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on :

Not being suckered into thinking the forbidden things are actually worthwhile?

It seems a bit like going "I really envied my childhood friends, who hadn't been told by their parents that eating random fungi, licking lead paint, and playing with the asbestos in the ceiling was a bad idea".

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

One of the most common views of the "Christian Life" is that it's entirely negative. By "negative" I don't mean "bad" but rather "defined by what it isn't rather than what it is". And a lifestyle that's primarily defined by bans and restrictions doesn't sound like much fun.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
It seems a bit like going "I really envied my childhood friends, who hadn't been told by their parents that eating random fungi, licking lead paint, and playing with the asbestos in the ceiling was a bad idea".

Not really. After all, those things pretty quickly show their negative effects.

To put it another way, if the vast majority of people I saw eating random fungi, licking lead paint and playing with asbestos showed no sign of ill effects (even many years later) and reported that they enjoyed every second of it, I'd be a lot less happy about not being allowed to do them myself.

However, the main thrust of my OP does not concern that. Even if all the things we are told to eschew were demonstrably and obviously bad for us, it wouldn't answer the question of why the Christian Life isn't actually a joy. Even (especially) if it's the best life there is, why is it so fucking dull?

Where's the joy?

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful?

To take one's selfishness and throw it in the garbage. To seek and will for the benefit of the other, and not for one's own benefit.

Are you still wondering why many people aren't living joyfully as Christians?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And a lifestyle that's primarily defined by bans and restrictions doesn't sound like much fun.

Quite so.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

I think I'd turn it round. What's so Christian about a dull life? We can do whatever we like as far as God is concerned. It's only Christians who have it in their heads that it's their role in life to lay down the Christian law that creates this impression. Why listen?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Fred Clark at Slacktivist had a good post about the abstemious Christian life in general and C. S. Lewis' reaction to American Christians coming after his beer in particular. It's a fairly quick and amusing read.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?

Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, exactly which activities is it that you resent not being allowed to join in with?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Perhaps the_raptor is on to something when tracing this back to childhood lessons. The first lesson the Church usually teaches youngsters is that wearing stiff clothes in a stuffy room listening to an old man drone on in incomprehensibly Elizabethan-style English is a better use of a day out of school than playing with their friends. Even the dullest kid will see this as grownups-trying-to-make-work-sound-like-fun.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, exactly which activities is it that you resent not being allowed to join in with?

I'm not naming specifics because it's not so much about what I resent not having done as why the Christian Life has nothing on offer with which to replace them. It's full of "Thou Shalt Not"s with no "Thou Shalt"s to take their place.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

If you don't say anything about it Marvin, it's not easy for us to see what the party going on over the road actually is.

My life isn't a total joy, but none of the things I would like to do but currently don't are things that are prevented by Christianity. They are things like having more friends, bringing up a family, a more exciting job which circumstances or my own capabilities prevent.

Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :

Marvin, there is an implicit assumption in your post that the Christian life is less fun because of "thou shalt not" types of strictures. I believe that such an assumption can be true in only two ways:

1) When one accepts definitions of the Christian life that include narrow definitions of appropriate behavior (generally with regard to sexuality but also in other areas). The solution here is to find a church community that does not define the Christian life in this manner.

2) When one accepts the assertion that immoral behavior that hurts oneself or others is fun.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

One of the notes of the third order of the Society of St Francis is 'joy'. As someone who struggles with depression, it's one I find quite challenging, though thankfully it is also noted that it is a gift from God.

Yes, all too often Christians come across as dull but that's not how it should be. Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.

There is also the fact that 'having a conscience is a bad idea' becuase it means you do some of the stuff that needs doing and others can't be bothered to do. Though one can do that joyfully.

Carys

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.

Joy isn't the same with being happy though. The joy the Holy Spirit's presence brings can co-exist with sorrow (again, a gift of the Holy Spirit, to be sorrowful for the pain of the world) and it's not to be confused with "being happy" sentimentalism in my view.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Interesting. From my atheist/Humanist point of view, I think I'd say that I resent the fact that I didn't have the truth, the facts, the realisation that the God idea was simply a human idea at a much, much younger age. I wish I had had a much longer period of my life not still maintaining the small place in my mind which contained the power/force/something 'out there' idea.

However, I have never wasted time regretting what was not and am delighted that I think I have a good few years left to thoroughly enjoy my Humanist/atheist position. [Smile]

Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :

There was that report saying people who regularly attended church were 30% less likely to suffer from depression. Admittedly that's about church rather than faith so it might apply to any close-knit community, but it's still interesting.

Posted by TomOfTarsus (# 3053) on :

Crœsos:

Thank you for that marvelous Slacktavist link!

You know, I don't "drink* smoke or chew, or go with girls that do", and I don't know how much I can add to the thread, mostly because as usual I'm really pressed for time but just can't help myself. (* - much, that is - everything in moderation)

The others are right, when you stand looking over the fence at where you are forbidden to go, you are not looking into, much less enjoying, the wide pasture of beauty and freedom that is the love and grace and goodness and beauty of communion with God and one another.

The joy that I've had since my conversion, a joy that trancends whether I'm happy or not at a given time, makes the time I spent in bondage absolutely loathsome to me - I wouldn't go back for the trillion bucks our "saviors" in Washington just shoveled out the door. I mean that with all my heart.

He loves me. Really loves me. Deeply truly, even tragically; more perfectly and effectively than any parent or any lover ever could. I'm free, really free, and I cannot explain how wonderful that is.

He saved me from myself. Unbidden, He took the initiative to confront me, arrest me even, and crush the Hell out of me. It was the worst thing I've ever been through (so far). But worth every second and 10 times more if that's what I'd needed.

I hope you catch it, my friend. Then maybe His love will flow from you and infect someone else (not that it hasn't Marvin, I most always enjoy your posts).

Blessings and a [Votive]

Tom

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Marvin, there is an implicit assumption in your post that the Christian life is less fun because of "thou shalt not" types of strictures. I believe that such an assumption can be true in only two ways:

1) When one accepts definitions of the Christian life that include narrow definitions of appropriate behavior (generally with regard to sexuality but also in other areas). The solution here is to find a church community that does not define the Christian life in this manner.

2) When one accepts the assertion that immoral behavior that hurts oneself or others is fun.

Speaking of assumptions, I'm not entirely sure it can be assumed that "immoral behavior" must necessarily "hurt[] oneself or others". By way of example, certain Christian sects regard the use of contraception as immoral, even for sex that is otherwise considered okay (i.e. with your church-approved spouse). I don't see how this would necessarily hurt either the couple involved or anyone else. Ditto for mule breeding or mixed fabrics. The criteria for "immorality" don't seem to require harm to either the immoral or others.

Posted by Waterchaser (# 11005) on :

What's the difference between Joy and Happyness?
Often people say that Joy is deeper than happiness which I get at one level; but does Joy include happiness or is it totally distinct from happyness. I think I tend to read passages that talk about joy eg 1 Peter that talks about joy unspeakable as being about happyness even if they are talking about a happyness that coexists with suffering and sorrow.

By the way I think the Christian Life is joyful (at least in terms of how I understand joy) in terms of the fact that I find it easier to be happy for "no reason" other than being alive and well (which actually is a pretty big deal!) than before I was a Christian; and more aware and thankful of the reasons to be happy in my life. And I love some of the things we do as Christians - praying for people, deep friendships, worshipping, and sometimes even being kind to other people (this is harder for me - conversly my wife finds being kind to people easier but finds other aspects of the christian life harder).

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

quote:
So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it?

Can't you accept that the degree of joy in life is often the result of forces and events that have nothing to do with religion? And has anyone tried to compare the average joy quotient of various groups? I suspect it will vary more by character traits.

One suggestion, though. A possible problem with any religion is that people may be less likely to find there real selves. I know this sounds corny, and it doesn't just apply to religion. But I think it's an obvious trap.

To take an obvious example: If a person is brought up in an environment in which homosexuality is not stigmatised, they will find it easier to discover their sexuality if they are in fact gay. In my case, the attempt to remain faithful is deeply at odds with my basically skeptical character. And I wasn't a totally joyful christian because, to be honest, I didn't believe half of it. Not really.

Posted by Makepiece (# 10454) on :

I'm reminded of the words 'those who wait on the Lord will soar as on the wings of eagles' because of course the Lord is 'my strength and my song'. I personally find forgiveness of sin much more joyful than sin itself.

Posted by Kid Who Cracked (# 13963) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
To take an obvious example: If a person is brought up in an environment in which homosexuality is not stigmatised, they will find it easier to discover their sexuality if they are in fact gay. In my case, the attempt to remain faithful is deeply at odds with my basically skeptical character. And I wasn't a totally joyful christian because, to be honest, I didn't believe half of it. Not really.

I think this is how I feel about it now. I feel like I have to shove my mind into some form of orthodoxy even though it doesn't seem to fit.
I think a lot of the problem (like others have said) is a focus on what you can't do. I have a guilt complex to this day, possibly because of "do not" religion, that's actually brought many suicidal thoughts. Much of my younger days was overshadowed with the belief that most people were going to burn forever, and it's dang near impossible to stay happy with that mindset.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Many Christian events are cheerful, even joyful - youth group stuff, choirs or singers who "get it together", potluck suppers in a community. It is quite possible for a Eucharist service to be joyful in a different sense - the joy of realising that you are in the Presence or that the community is joined as one in the worship, even if the activity is solemnly and politely done.

But many Christian activities are joyless, because there are too many people finding fault, or shushing, or demanding rigorous attention to a program or timetable that doesn't actually matter, or in some other way forcing us to behave in a negative or confined manner for no real purpose.

Take a simple one: it is possible to say a Grace before a meal that is a joyful affirmation of our thanks to God, or it is possible (and more common) to shut down the whole process, while someone stumbles through a "few" (ha!) words of something that might appear to be an address to God, except that it is a sermon on proper behaviour or a desperate desire to have said the right phrases that will be approved by the self-appointed Powers-That-Be in the congo.

We've got into the habit of thinking that anything that might be happy is to be frowned upon, as not serious enough to honour God.

Good Heavens, even a funeral should have aspects of joy, when we think of someone going to "a Better Place"!

Posted by Ann (# 94) on :

When I started going back to church, there was a member of the congregation who asserted that being a Christian was not "pie in the sky when you die" but "Steak on a plate while you wait". Unfortunately, he never gave any concrete examples of what the "steak" was and I was too new to dare to ask.

(Since then, when someone asked what I'd got from the parable of the workers in the vineyard, I could answer that I'd obviously been getting up at the ungodly hour of 10 o'clock of a Sunday for no good reason and would have got exactly the same reward for dropping in on church on my ninety-ninth birthday; but again, no-one could explain why that wasn't a perfectly valid interpretation and why being a faithful churchgoer was a good idea.)

Just see what you'd be missing if you just went ahead and did exactly what you wanted to.

Posted by Waterchaser (# 11005) on :

Horseman Bree [Overused]

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

Some Quaker shalts, which I've found helpful:

Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts.
Take time to learn about other people's experiences of the Light.... Appreciate that doubt and questioning can also lead to spiritual growth and to a greater awareness of the Light that is in us all.
Spiritual learning continues throughout life, and often in unexpected ways. There is inspiration to be found all around us, in the natural world, in the sciences and arts, in our work and friendships, in our sorrows as well as in our joys. ...
Be honest with yourself. What unpalatable truths might you be evading? When you recognise your shortcomings, do not let that discourage you....
Live adventurously. ....walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in every one.

Full text here

However, there is a kind of fundamental problem with finding Joy in life because, as you know, shit happens. Some people find that the Zen Strawberry summarises the situation beautifully.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

I've been ruminating on this question off and on since the OP, and it seems to me that there's not a WHOLE lot of difference between the everyday activities of the Christian and the non-Chritsian, unless you belong to a particularly strict form of Christianity that outlaws a lot of "worldly" activities. Even then, I would say 85% of your day's activities are probably the same as that of any "worldly" person -- you go to your job, you interact with family and friends and co-workers, you do whatever it is you do for leisure and whatever it is you do to make the world a bit better place ... and you eat your meals and your sleep.

With the exception of how you spend your leisure time (I"ll get to that in a minute) it doesn't seem to me that the actual daily activities would be that much different -- presumably the difference between the Christian and the non-Christian would be the spirit or attitude with which you do them. One would hope that ideally, all other things being equal, the Christian would have more sense of inner peace, purpose, a belief in a loving God, that would give more overall joy to these activities. One's relationships might be a bit more whole and healthy if one were following Christian principles, and hopefully underneath it all would be a sense that there is a God who cares for you and your life is all part of some bigger plan.

The problem, of course, is the "all other things being equal," which they're not. I can't relate to the statement in the OP because I find the Christian life extremely joyful, but to be absolutley honest, I was blessed with a cheerful, optimistic outlook and a relatively trouble-free life (so far), so I'd probably also be a fairly happy non-Christian, if that were the path I'd chosen. I suspect a person who is unhappy in their Christianity would probably be a fairly unhappy atheist too. It might be more relevant to look at it the way C.S. Lewis suggested we look at moral goodness: not to ask if Christian A is happier than non-Christian B, since there are all kinds of other factors we can't know about affecting A's and B's levels of happiness, but to ask whether A is happier as a Christian than A would be if s/he weren't a Christian. I think the answer to that ought to be yes, and if not, there is probably something wrong with A's Christianity, but you'd have to look at it over a whole lifetime with a lot of factors considered, and really, we can't ever know for sure how our lives WOULD have turned out if we'd chosen another direction.

The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life. Christians might spend some of their free time in church and some more of it involved in service to the community (though many non-Christians would do the latter as well), and if those things are making the Christian unhappy, s/he might be going to the wrong church or doing the wrong sort of service.

Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :

I think that we get what we practice. If we practice regret for all the things that could have been, then we get a life of regret.

I've seen regret wreck havoc on people's lives; I know two people who practice regret to such an extent that they spend most of their time regretting the things that they cannot have because they made the opposite choice.

The best I can muster in Purgatory (rather than Hell) is grow up and learn to smell the roses. Better yet, go visit someone who has had limits unwillingly placed on them by life circumstances and then thank God - or the atheist stars - that you can walk, talk, get your own meals or do your own laundry. Don't wait until you can't do these things to say 'I wish I knew then what I know now.'

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Quoting from a post some years ago on the Ship

quote:
The best evangelist I've met to date was a woman at work who I knew had a lot of problems in her life but was always cheerful, serene and just sort of glowed. I knew from general conversation that she was a regular church-goer and that it was very important in her life.

She never talked to me directly about her religion at all - ever - but it was her example that got me interested in going back to church. She had something I wanted and I wanted to find out where and how she got it.

Just make your life an example of the transforming power of God's love and grace and forget about handing out tracts. Simple really.

How much of your church is seriousness to the point of despair, and how much is the St. Francis bon mot: "Preach the Gospel at all times, and, if necessary, use words"?

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, exactly which activities is it that you resent not being allowed to join in with?
I'm not naming specifics because it's not so much about what I resent not having done as why the Christian Life has nothing on offer with which to replace them. It's full of "Thou Shalt Not"s with no "Thou Shalt"s to take their place.

I have to admit I don't have a lot of trouble with some of the 'thou shalts'. Coveting either my neighbour's donkey or his wife aren't liable to tempt me into much sin. The rest is common sense, surely. And how much fun can a sincere Christian claim adultery, theft, idolatry and beating your parents up to be?

It's just another way of saying 'you shall live a life without doing the following, if you want to be reasonably happy and sure of not doing harm.'

However, I guess all the 'thou shalts' were covered when Jesus said 'thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself' - along with a few other things to do with loving people. What was it he said, 'A new commandment, I give unto you....'?

Still, sometimes when I see what churchpeople do to the gospel, including myself, I wonder what happened to the bit about 'I've come so that people may have life, and have it abundantly'.

Posted by MerlintheMad (# 12279) on :

(1 Cor. 15:19)

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life. Christians might spend some of their free time in church and some more of it involved in service to the community (though many non-Christians would do the latter as well), and if those things are making the Christian unhappy, s/he might be going to the wrong church or doing the wrong sort of service.

It should also be remembered that in addition to casual sex, drinking, and crime, non-Christian activities also include sports, writing or reading a (non-Christian themed) novel, playing (non-Christian themed) video games, and watching (non-Christian themed) movies. Yeah, hard to see how any of those things could be a joyful experience.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life. Christians might spend some of their free time in church and some more of it involved in service to the community (though many non-Christians would do the latter as well), and if those things are making the Christian unhappy, s/he might be going to the wrong church or doing the wrong sort of service.
It should also be remembered that in addition to casual sex, drinking, and crime, non-Christian activities also include sports, writing or reading a (non-Christian themed) novel, playing (non-Christian themed) video games, and watching (non-Christian themed) movies. Yeah, hard to see how any of those things could be a joyful experience.

No, I don't get that, because none of those activities are forbidden to Christians (see my disclaimer about belonging to exclusive sects that outlaw all forms of "nonChristian" fun). My argument would be that Christians can do pretty much all the "fun" things nonChristians can do, including all the ones you mentioned. The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.

Am I missing your point somehow?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
No, I don't get that, because none of those activities are forbidden to Christians (see my disclaimer about belonging to exclusive sects that outlaw all forms of "nonChristian" fun). My argument would be that Christians can do pretty much all the "fun" things nonChristians can do, including all the ones you mentioned. The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.

Am I missing your point somehow?

I guess my point is that if sports are "Christian" then Sandy Koufax will be plenty surprised. Ditto for all those Muslims who've been missing out on binge drinking just because no one told them.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Huh? What do Muslims drinking or not drinking have to do with Christian joy?

And who said sports was anti-Christian? No wonder people live po-faced Christian lives if they have such ideas of what to avoid as you list.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Croesos, I must be incredibly dense because I still do not see the point you are making. I never suggested that sports or novels or anything were exclusively Christian, nor that Christianity was the only religion that disapproved of binge drinking or sleeping around or the like. My point was:

-Christians do most of the same routine, everyday things that non-Christians do,

-Christians enjoy most of the same leisure activities non-Christians do (i.e. those activities are neither "Christian" nor "non-Christian," just human), and

-Those leisure activities from which Christians are prohibited generally bring more sorrow than joy.

I still can't see how any of what you've said relates to what I said. Can you break your point down a little more, please?

[ 24. February 2009, 00:24: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Huh? What do Muslims drinking or not drinking have to do with Christian joy?

And who said sports was anti-Christian? No wonder people live po-faced Christian lives if they have such ideas of what to avoid as you list.

According to Trudy, as non-Christians drug/alcohol abuse is one of the top three activities for Muslims, who apparently live dour lives not "conducive to joy" because of it.

And I never said sports were anti-Christian, just non-Christian. Despite the existence of the "Hail Mary Pass" and the "Miricle on Ice", most sports are non-denominational.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Sorry, I thought that by inserting the word "stereotypically" and then putting "non-Christian" in quotes, people would understand that I meant, "Activities sometimes pursued by some people, many of whom may not be Christians or followers of any other religious faith, which Christians often stereotype as being 'the type of things non-Christians do' when they want to give examples of secular, and presumably sinful, leisure activities."

Guess you just can't be too clear around here.

Posted by The Atheist (# 12067) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?

Because that's the way it is, and why Atheism International schedules all atheist orgies for Sunday mornings. Boringness is next to godliness.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life.

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Sorry, I thought that by inserting the word "stereotypically" and then putting "non-Christian" in quotes, people would understand that I meant, "Activities sometimes pursued by some people, many of whom may not be Christians or followers of any other religious faith, which Christians often stereotype as being 'the type of things non-Christians do' when they want to give examples of secular, and presumably sinful, leisure activities."

Guess you just can't be too clear around here.

You were perfectly clear. You said you were indulging in stereotypes of things done by those without Christian beliefs, and I believe you. It's just a fairly ugly stereotype. I also wanted to point out that non-Christian (or "non-Christian") is such a broad category that such stereotyping is always going to be fairly useless, something I tried to illustrate with my "Muslim binge drinking" example.

And non-Christians "may not" be Christian? C'mon, isn't that a little weaselly? (Not to imply any disparagement of actual weasels!)

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

No, people who binge drink or sleep around may not be Christians. Obviously, Christians might do these things too.

I guess I see the point you were trying to make now, but I'm not sure it undermines in any way the point I was making. The only leisure activities I know of that are specifically forbidden to Christians are things that aren't really that much fun.

My basic problem with the OP is that I have a hard time visualize what it is Marvin's non-Christian friends are doing that looks like so much fun, but that he feels his Christianity prohibits him from doing. And I know he said he didn't want to get into specifics but without specifics I think the whole argument falls apart. When I look at what my non-Christian friends are doing, 95% of it is more or less the exact same stuff I'm doing. The other 5% honestly doesn't seem like that much fun. So I'm just stretching to imagine what Marvin's friends are getting up to.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Maybe all he really wants is a bar mitzvah.

Posted by Lord Clonk (# 13205) on :

Sports are non-Christian?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Clonk:
Sports are non-Christian?

I've certainly never noticed a requirement for Trinitarianism to perform a corner kick. Note the difference between the prefixes non- and anti-.

Posted by Lord Clonk (# 13205) on :

Oh, I wasn't questionning whether it's anti-Christian or not. I was just wondering whether you think that this passage has no relevance to sport:

'He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.'

For even the non-Christians eat meat.

[ 24. February 2009, 01:16: Message edited by: Lord Clonk ]

Posted by Kid Who Cracked (# 13963) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
(1 Cor. 15:19)

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.

Where would that leave, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly," or joy being a fruit of the Spirit?

Posted by wehyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful?
To take one's selfishness and throw it in the garbage. To seek and will for the benefit of the other, and not for one's own benefit.

Are you still wondering why many people aren't living joyfully as Christians?

I second §Andrew's post. In the long run, joy can only be sustained by leading a useful life for the benefit of others. All you need to do is find something you enjoy doing that helps others.

Our natural inclinations to enjoy fun activities do not lead us to happiness. If you find yourself lacking, find something you can do for someone else out of love. As long as you don't miscalculate the effect you will have, it's a guaranteed way to find joy.

BTW, a psychologist I heard once on the radio pointed out that happiness is something you remember. Maybe not the entire truth, but definitely something to it.

Posted by wehyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.
Joy isn't the same with being happy though. The joy the Holy Spirit's presence brings can co-exist with sorrow (again, a gift of the Holy Spirit, to be sorrowful for the pain of the world) and it's not to be confused with "being happy" sentimentalism in my view.

Sorry for the double post, but the idea of sorrow from compassion being a gift of the Holy Spirit is one that occurred to me a long time ago, but until now I've never come across someone else expressing the same thought. Does this merely reflect the limits of my situation or is it an unusual idea in other parts of the world too?

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I have learned that God's few "thou shalt nots" are for my benefit, not unlike Mommy saying "thou shalt not cross the street without first stopping to look both ways for traffic." Chasing a ball into the street is more fun, for the moment, than following the rules and stopping to look; but the danger is real, and recovering in a hospital bed is a bigger pain than the ball chasing was fun.

I'm talking about pain now, not some distant "punishment."

All of God's rules are for our own benefit NOW. Eat your veggies, don't sleep around, get enough execise, do your homework, don't attack others behind their back with malicious gossip, don't fry your brains on dangerous drugs - what's not to like, whether parent rules or God-rules?

Some people seem to - or maybe actually do - "get away with" blacking out on alcohol. (How is getting "wasted" fun? The one time I got drunk I was miserable for a lot longer than the party had lasted!)

But even if some "get away with it" the danger is real - often kinds of danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more (and because we tend to not believe God).

Do people and groups add silly extra burdensome rules? You betcha. Demand to know the purpose of any suggested rule. If it doesn't have a goal of advancing your health (physical mental, relational), it's not a God rule. "Christians shouldn't enjoy life" is not a God-value, so rules based on nonsense like this aren't from God.

But unlearning the imposed un-Godly "rules" can be real hard.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But even if some "get away with it" the danger is real - often kinds of danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more (and because we tend to not believe God).

Do people and groups add silly extra burdensome rules? You betcha. Demand to know the purpose of any suggested rule. If it doesn't have a goal of advancing your health (physical mental, relational), it's not a God rule. "Christians shouldn't enjoy life" is not a God-value, so rules based on nonsense like this aren't from God.

But unlearning the imposed un-Godly "rules" can be real hard.

Isn't that a contradiction? If God's rules are to prevent "danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more", how can we "know the purpose of any suggested rule"? I mean if "because God knows more than you" is a valid explanation anything could be justified.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it? Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?

I don't know. But I have to say it does make me feel a tiny bit better to know that someone else feels this way.

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

Trudy:

quote:
The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.

Am I missing your point somehow?

I think you are missing the point of christianity - speaking as one who can't really claim to still be a believer.

The emphasis of Jesus' teaching was "take up your cross and follw me". It is meant to be a sacrificial religion. Paul sought fellowship in the suffering of Christ and the emphasis is on "the joy set before us", and the joy we have now is largely dependent on this. As Marvin said, it is a religion of abnegation, and whilst that can involve joy,it is a special type of joy.

We are not meant to be masochists, or to enjoy crucifixion ("I am crucified with Christ, yet . .").

Which is precisely why is doesn't work for me, since it will not work if you do not really believe it. Not without any doubt ever - that's impossible, but with a faith strong enough to be your comfort. I don't have that, and do not see why I should think this a weakness which I need to change. But I do suspect that a lot of christians are hanging on with a semi-faith, which is why they live non-sacrificial lives little like the life of Christ. Then the only joy they (we) can find is that same as for everyone else: friends, life in general, whatever.

And you could always try getting a cat.

Posted by Eckadimmock (# 14214) on :

You may also want to consider why so many people, having sampled the fleshpots of youth, still seek Christ.

As someone who did, I would say that it's like choosing exercise and a low fat diet over pizza and TV, long term benefit over instant gratification. Also, however difficult it is, it happens to be true.

That said, the guy who influenced me most when I was still a know-it-all atheist was an American who liked to drink and party, and did not appear to have been celibate. However, he was kind, generous and understanding, certainly not pious and judgmental. he was Christian where it counted.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's not so much about what I resent not having done as why the Christian Life has nothing on offer with which to replace them. It's full of "Thou Shalt Not"s with no "Thou Shalt"s to take their place.

I presume we are talking more about ideology than actually finding things to do with your time.

In that case, I see the problem. God has asked us to shift the focus off ourselves and now we don't know where to put it, except that we probably do know really. I can't quite imagine what my life would look like if I really tried to put it into practice. I'm going to start trying it as an experiment very soon though.

But yeah, if the focus is nowhere, or if its on ourself but we know it shouldn't be then I think we'll be dissatisfied with how we feel and what we're getting out of it. Kind of like having enough of God to mess up the enjoyment of sin, and enough of sin to mess up the enjoyment of God.

A couple of things I like to read sometimes:
This post by Tom Clune.
This article: 5 things you think will make you happy (but wont).

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:

quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
(1 Cor. 15:19)

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.
Where would that leave, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly," or joy being a fruit of the Spirit?

Not only that, but that verse (ISTM) has little to do with what we're discussing here. It comes in the middle of a passage where Paul's defending the preaching of the resurrection. He's saying that if Jesus didn't rise again then we've no hope and, if we're trusting in Him for this life only whilst believing we're hoping for a future resurrection, then we're to be pitied because we're hoping for something that ain't gonna happen.

It's little or nothing to do with how joyful our Christian life is supposed to be.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Trudy:

quote:
The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.

Am I missing your point somehow?
I think you are missing the point of christianity - speaking as one who can't really claim to still be a believer.

Yeah, I think I'm going to pass on the suggestion that because I enjoy my life as a Christian, I'm missing the point of my faith.

The fact is that both aspects are there in the Biblical depiction of Christianity -- self-denial, and also joy. There are Bible texts that emphasize the hardship of the life of faith, and there are texts that empahsize the joy. Both are present in the life of Christ -- He was the Man of Sorrows, but also wished for His disciples that they might know His joy. And in the lives of great Christians throughout the ages we see some whose lives have been characterized by great joy and some by great sorrow and suffering.

I think both are clearly part of the Christian experience, and at different times in our lives some of us will experience more of one than the other. And some people, generally, due to personality type or life experience, are just going to experience more joy, or more sorrow. But that goes back to my original statement that the people who experience a lot of suffering in their Christian lives would probably be fairly unhappy as non-believers, but hopefully their faith will give them some consolation. While those who are happy as Christians might also be fairly happy as non-Christians -- but hopefully their faith will give more depth and purpose to their lives.

So, you know, sue me for not being St. John of the Cross, but that's just not been my experience.

I'm not sure how we feel -- happy or unhappy -- is really the point of our religion, even though I do believe an individual person's life should be better and more meaningful with Christ than without.

But I'm still curious about the situation outlined in the OP, where non-Christian friends are off having such a great time from which the Christian feels wistfully excluded.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
And I wasn't a totally joyful christian because, to be honest, I didn't believe half of it. Not really.

That's probably very pertinent to my current situation.

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life.

Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Kind of like having enough of God to mess up the enjoyment of sin, and enough of sin to mess up the enjoyment of God.

That sounds pretty accurate as well.

Posted by Jon G (# 4704) on :

So tell me these lads aren't having fun!?

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.

I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I'd say that drug abuse, or getting drunk, or moving from girl to girl, they are all signs that something is missing, that the people doing these things seek to fill a void that cannot be filled, to find satisfaction that lasts, and, instead of that, they find substitutes of a very low quality, substitutes that do not fill the void, which is why the person is always craving for more and more.

In other words, appearances can be very deceptive, and I'd doubt you are worse than them. On the other hand, the problem is that the forms of Christianity on the market have obviously little to do with Christ, since they do not fill man either..... This is an even greater tragedy, because fake forms of Christianity, man-made forms (and thus not fulfilling) are dominating the religious market.........

One last comment. What prevents you from doing these things? Surely not God. You are very free to do whatever you want. God doesn't impose laws on mankind, God doesn't judge. God suggests a life of very high quality. It's idols of God that are imposed on us that we need to overthrow, and we need to realize what God truly wants from us, rather than assume that He is a tyrant of some sort, who oppresses us and doesn't want us to have fun!

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jon G:
So tell me these lads aren't having fun!?

Hey, if it wasn't for playing my guitar in the music group I'd have given up on church years ago.

Posted by glockenspiel (# 13645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.
I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I'd say that drug abuse, or getting drunk, or moving from girl to girl, they are all signs that something is missing ...

Feeling deprived of wine, women and song is also a sign that something is missing ~ namely, wine, women and song.

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
Feeling deprived of wine, women and song is also a sign that something is missing ~ namely, wine, women and song.

Really? So, how many women do you want so that you don't feel deprived of women? [Razz]

Seriously now, I didn't say wine, I said getting drunk. I didn't say anything about singing. I did say something about drugs. And moving from girl to girl.

Take girls for example. If you find fulfillment with one particular girl, you won't change ten girls in one month, will you?

Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But I'm still curious about the situation outlined in the OP, where non-Christian friends are off having such a great time from which the Christian feels wistfully excluded.

Am I being cynical that I read it to mean 'My friends are having casual sex, binge drinking and using recreational drugs and they are happy as Larry with no apparent ill effects?'

To which my response is that I don't buy it. If one makes a habit of any one of those things, one definitely suffers the ill effects eventually.

As to the suggestion that a Christian must always choose the way of suffering even if God slaps them in the face with good fortune: Spherical objects.

As to the suggestion that anything that is not specifically cultic-Christian (using the word 'cultic' in its sociological sense) is forbidden to Christians: More spherical objects.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
if it wasn't for playing my guitar in the music group I'd have given up on church years ago.

Religion is about making sense of our life experience. The claims and counter claims - Christianity should be this, Christians should live like that - are only generalisations of how other people have chosen to live, attempts to justify their preferences and insecurities as if they had some ultimate value.

I see church as a channel through which I can co-operate with others who share my values. The Christian labels and culture, although sometimes seriously irritating and distracting, are really only noises off. The 'joy', the deep satisfaction, comes through discovering and participating in the subversive undercurrents in any still-living church, looking to kick over the stagnant traces as new things take shape, however slowly and painfully, around the dead and dying wood.

I guess it's seeing church as active rather than a passively-received religion. Engaging with what is in order to contribute to what it might become. It seems to me that's all Jesus did. Why should authentic Christianity be more?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.
I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I'd say that drug abuse, or getting drunk, or moving from girl to girl, they are all signs that something is missing ...
Feeling deprived of wine, women and song is also a sign that something is missing ~ namely, wine, women and song.

I drink, I'm married and I sing. I'm a Christian.

I wouldn't say I'm especially joyful (although I'm generally content, which isn't bad going), but then I have plenty of Christian and non-Christian friends, some of whom are more joyful and some of whom are less joyful than me.

Posted by Rat (# 3373) on :

Marvin, do you think that joy is a feature of a non-Christian life, and that that joy is being witheld from you by your Christianity? Or is that you think your Christian life should be more joyful than the alternatives, and are disappointed that it has failed to be so?

To be honest, I doubt that the level of joy in the average person's life has a great deal to do with their religious affiliation. IME, at least, most of the activities commonly considered unnacceptable to Christianity do not, in and of themselves, bring joy*, and many activities or situations which would be perfectly allowable may do, in the right circumstances.

I suspect that (outside of the inevitable periods of grief and pain that afflict everybody, Christian or not) the level of joy you experience has a lot to do with your attitude and how you open yourself up to it. If you really feel that your life is such a joyless, miserable slog then I suspect it has little to do with your religion, and would not change if you chucked that religion. If your life is really so shit and makes you so miserable, I'd give some series thought to changing it. Or even, ahem, seeking some help to change yourself and your outlook. I very much doubt that indulging in... whatever it is you feel prevented from doing?... is going to bring you joy in itself.

* though they may sometimes be fun. But not always, and that's not the same thing as joy, is it?

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :

Never underestimate the oppressive power of religion, Rat.

Sin is a mixture of good and bad, it's not, as many people assume, something bad in itself. So, when someone says to people "don't sin" and doesn't gives to them something more fulfilling in the place of sin, then this leads to a horrible, to an unbearable life.

At least sin has the benefit of something good in it.

And frankly, there are forms of Christianity that, not knowing Christ, preach exactly that. They can't give Christ to the people, because they do not have Christ, so this leaves the people in an unbearable condition. And that's just wrong.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I suspect that (outside of the inevitable periods of grief and pain that afflict everybody, Christian or not) the level of joy you experience has a lot to do with your attitude and how you open yourself up to it. If you really feel that your life is such a joyless, miserable slog then I suspect it has little to do with your religion, and would not change if you chucked that religion. If your life is really so shit and makes you so miserable, I'd give some series thought to changing it. Or even, ahem, seeking some help to change yourself and your outlook. I very much doubt that indulging in... whatever it is you feel prevented from doing?... is going to bring you joy in itself.

I think Rat is saying pretty much the same thing I was trying to say, though much more clearly and succinctly (as people generally do).

Without wanting to make it too personal, Marvin (although you did start the OP with references to your personal experience, so I assume that's not entirely out of bounds), I think I recall also seeing you hold forth here on the theory that one's working life is almost inevitably a grim, dreary slog from which one is released only by the coming of five o'clock, and that people who expect joy or fulfillment in their work are naive idealists.

If I'm remembering correctly, and not confusing you with another poster, then I think the problem is likely more systemic than simply your experience of Christianity taking all the fun out of your life, and Rat's suggestions might be worth some serious consideration.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

Um, I don't know about Marvin, but I think I'd have reservations about 'get some therapy' as an appropriate response to disillusionment with church.

[ 24. February 2009, 12:13: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

"Disillusionment with church" isn't what I got from the OP. I'd have a lot of different responses to disillusionment with church, but the impression I got from the OP was a more general disillusionment with life, and dissatisfaction that Christianity hadn't fixed that, but had possibly made it worse by denying some fun forms of escapism.

However, it's entirely possible I was misreading where Marvin was coming from.

Obviously if the problem were basically disillusionment with church, "try a different church" or "try doing church differently" would both be things you'd want to look at a long time before you'd recommend therapy. OTOH (and I'm not speaking specifically about Marvin here), if I knew a person who had been to seven quite different churches, and been unhappy in all of them, and was also unhappy in her work life and her personal relationships, I would start to suspect the problem went a bit broader and deeper than church.

[ 24. February 2009, 12:34: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]

Posted by Woodworm (# 13798) on :

I drank, had casual sex and took drugs.

Was I miserable? Hell, no! I was having a ball! The only reason I don't do the same now is that I am happily married family-type person with a demanding job who doesn't have time for a 2-day ecstasy come-down. But, boy, it was fun.

I also went to Church every Sunday, prayed, and did a load of good works (again, far more than nowadays - don't have much time for that either).

I just can't take the private shalt-nots. Does the Lord God of the Universe give two hoots who this four-billionth ex-monkey sleeps with? Folks like Squiggly Andrew telling us that God has issued these commenadments for our own good is tiddly. You don't need God to lay down a rule that thou shalt not get pie-eyed. People can work out for themselves whether sex and drugs are good or bad without a spooky finger spelling it out on a stone tablet.

I was also an atheist for 48 hours, after reading The God Delusion.

The colour just drained from the World. Some atheists say they found the opposite on a de-conversion, but not me. I didn't mind the cold indifference of the Universe so much as the greyness of it all (mind, that may have been a reaction to Dawkins' Charles Atlas frontal-lobe-flexing routine, which would depress anyone).

In the Christian faith I feel cross, happy, sad, tired, energised, stare-at-the-wall, much like everyone. But predominently I feel joy. Not because I am "saved". Not for any special reason. Just joy.

Tell me what I am trying to say here! I think it is that Merlin, if you think that everyone is having fun except you, they probably are. So go out and have some. And at the same time pray, and love your neighbour, and sing, and praise God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul.

[Axe murder]

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
Folks like Squiggly Andrew telling us that God has issued these commenadments for our own good is tiddly.

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
What prevents you from doing these things? Surely not God. You are very free to do whatever you want. God doesn't impose laws on mankind, God doesn't judge.

Posted by Woodworm (# 13798) on :

Fair call. Apologies.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

I'm not quite sure why so much space on this thread has been wasted on "whether Christians can drink and sleep around". Neither of these activities necessarily develop joy in the participants. In fact, there is lots of evidence to say that these activities may lead to LESS joy and more anxiety, as much as they may arise out of a lack of joy and/or an excess of anxiety. (Please note the qualifiers - obviously people can drink for some momentary happiness - but it is momentary)

The OP asked why Christians showed so little joy in their lives. If we have been given the greatest gift possible, and that gift can be received on only one condition (that you acknowledge it), why can we show so little happiness/joy/whatever attitude that might make someone else want to find out about it?

Quite a lot of the Salvation Army people (although not all!) can show a quiet contentment with their choice in life, despite the awful stuff they deal with. They may not be bubbling over with Falstaffian mirth at all times, but their lives show a form of joy.

But, for most of us, church is a duty on one day of the week, and otherwise doesn't leave any mark on our lives. We may be a little more likely to give something or to buy FairTrade or to do some other minor relatively painless activity, but we gather for Very Serious Reasons, we sing sad songs and we disapprove of far too much without offering any visible positive balance.

No wonder people turn to drink or physical interactions. They don't see the point of the alternative.

Posted by CuppaT (# 10523) on :

This conversation is as old as the hills. Read Psalm 72/73.
Really, Christian Life is less about subtraction than it is about addition, or multiplication, or even exponential numbers. If we add time spent with One whom we love, then He will multiply the blessings toward us, seen or unseen. There will be battles, no doubt about that. There are dragons to kill and snakes to be driven out. The Ammonites have to be driven out and the Philistines conquered. The giants Og and Sihon have to be slain. Sin abounds in our lives, and the more we repent, the more we find to repent about. If ever once God opens our eyes to Heavenly things then earthly things really seem pale in comparison, and we spend our time on what is important to us, whether television or sports or prayer. We are not introspective all the time, though, but loving others around us, feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty, showing hospitality to strangers, visiting the imprisoned, sometimes simply washing diapers and teaching the young.

Any Christian who thinks life will always be a joy is fooling himself. God does not promise an easy road. Grief can strike at any time. I have walked through Hell, and had it last for long stretches of time. All I could do was look at Jesus and cry out my trust in him. Peace was underlying, and joy was somewhere hibernating somewhere very deep down. Whether I would see it surface again in my lifetime or not, this I did not know. One of the verses that helped me most was the end of Psalm 15/16.

Posted by TomOfTarsus (# 3053) on :

Horseman Bree:

By George, you've done it again! Nicely put.

I was going to recommend this 9 step tongue-in-cheek process by the late Rich Mullins. It turns nicely serious, I hope those concerned "get" it.

Blessings,

Tom

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Take girls for example. [Assuming you're a straight male or a lesbian.] If you find fulfillment with one particular girl, you won't change ten girls in one month, will you?

Conversely, if you don't find fulfillment with one particular girl, do you still cling on to her like Grim Death because doing otherwise would be "moving from girl to girl", and we know from §Andrew that's something Christians don't do?

Posted by TomOfTarsus (# 3053) on :

Cross-posted with CuppaT. Nicely put as well, sorry you've had such hard times, but can you agree that there is something trancendent about this joy - as opposed to mere happiness - that flies over the hard times? I mean, it's not like I haven't had hard times since my conversion, and I'm not pointing fingers or trying to figure out who had the harder time(s), it's just that that joy somehow burns through no matter how happy or sad I am at a given time. [Votive]

for you

Blessings,

Tom

and to Crœsos: No, not like Grim Death. If the Scriptures are anything at all to look at, they say He loves us, really loves us, and if He (like our mom or dad or whoever raised you) seems to want you not to be promiscuous, I figure it's because He loves me. Elementary, I know, but I'm a simple guy. ETA: AACK! And I messed the whole point. The point of such relationships is not to "fulfill yourself." What are they teaching in the schools these days?

[ 24. February 2009, 13:41: Message edited by: TomOfTarsus ]

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

One can be a depressed (or depressive) Christian. There are some types of Christianity which can aggrevate the depression (particularly those which claim that Christians shouldn't be depressed or that faith not anti-depressants should be used) but ignoring that, a depressed Christian isn't likely to be bouncier and more positive in outlook than a non-depressed non-Christian. A depressed Christian might be better off as a Christian than they would be as a non-Christian. I suspect I'd struggle more with my depression if I weren't a Christian.

Carys

Posted by Woodworm (# 13798) on :

TomofTarsus, don't know if you clocked the number of your post. Get thee behind me...!

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I'm not quite sure why so much space on this thread has been wasted on "whether Christians can drink and sleep around".

I think I am responsible for most of that time-wasting, because I introduced those two examples (I think. Someone may have brought them up earlier, but I know I did use them). The OP expressed frustration about all the fun activities non-Christians were doing, from which Christians were prohibited, but chose not to give any examples (in fact, refused when asked). I was trying to imagine what those fun activities, not available to Christians, might be, and those were the examples I came up with (I also included drugs and petty crime). So far, no-one else has suggested any better examples of things that are apparently "fun" but which Christians are not allowed to do.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Or is that you think your Christian life should be more joyful than the alternatives, and are disappointed that it has failed to be so?

Well, yes. But isn't that a reasonable thing to expect? After all, if it's going to be less fun it may as well be more joyful. Can't God at least give us that?

By the way, I kind of resent the implication that if I'm not completely ecstatic about giving up the things of this world and following Christ it must be a psychological problem within me.

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
the impression I got from the OP was a more general disillusionment with life, and dissatisfaction that Christianity hadn't fixed that, but had possibly made it worse by denying some fun forms of escapism.

Not a million miles off. But Christianity claims to offer a "better way" to "true happiness", so why does it fail to deliver? Why is the "true happiness" so often anything but?

It may well be just that I'm a dour pessimist. Well, actually it's not: if anything I'm more of a nihilist, but that's beside the point. The point is that surely if Christianity is True then shouldn't the Holy Spirit be filling us with His joy or something?

Posted by Oreophagite (# 10534) on :

I asked the Lord that I might grow
In faith, and love, and every grace;
Might more of His salvation know,
And seek, more earnestly, His face.

’Twas He who taught me thus to pray,
And He, I trust, has answered prayer!
But it has been in such a way,
As almost drove me to despair.

I hoped that in some favored hour,
At once He’d answer my request;
And by His love’s constraining pow’r,
Subdue my sins, and give me rest.

Instead of this, He made me feel
The hidden evils of my heart;
And let the angry pow’rs of hell
Assault my soul in every part.

Yea more, with His own hand He seemed
Intent to aggravate my woe;
Crossed all the fair designs I schemed,
Blasted my gourds, and laid me low.

Lord, why is this, I trembling cried,
Wilt thou pursue thy worm to death?
“’Tis in this way, the Lord replied,
I answer prayer for grace and faith.

These inward trials I employ,
From self, and pride, to set thee free;
And break thy schemes of earthly joy,
That thou may’st find thy all in Me.”

John Newton

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it? Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge... while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing... ?

Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful? Or is hoping against hope that one day church, charity and chastity will be joyful to us in and of themselves all we can do?

Answers depend on what the discuss-ers mean by the words they're using. What is "Christian", "Christian Life"? What is "happiness", what is "joyful"?

Perhaps there are people who read the Scriptures and histories of the Church, and somehow get the idea that those men, women and children in those accounts led hoppy skippy lives of sunshine and lollipops.

When I read that stuff, I do see happiness and joyfulness, beauty and humor and contentment happening. But all that wonderfulness is definitely interspersed amongst some agony.

When we follow a Leader whose very purpose and plan, in His coming to lead us, included a nasty, brutish, insulting, torturous death, it probably shouldn't shock us when we too have our darknesses.

If we find no joy in our Christian life -- there are any number of reasons why that may be so and any number of ways we might work on improving things.

Does the religious group we belong to seem to have a grip? Or are they touting an impossible viewpoint like "good Godly people do not suffer in this life"? Or are they, conversely, saying that wanting a life of contentment and deep abiding joy is somehow a bad thing? Are they focusing on drawing suffering like a lightning rod draws a charge, 'cause holy people cannot possibly be happy in this world?

Either extreme is useless.

Perhaps it's our own weirdnesses rather than our church's problem. Maybe we have an impossible view of what it means to be joyful. Maybe we have a chemical imbalance that tends to send us into gloom no matter what goes on around us.

Or maybe we really, truly do have a difficult life that would drive any normal person to despair. (It ain't paranoia if they really are out to get you.)

The only answers I see, for me or anyone else, lie with Jesus. What seemed to make Him happy? What seemed to make Him poke fun and say funny things? Conversely, what seemed to drive Him to despair?

Maybe I can court joy by being like Jesus. Maybe, while I'm waiting for things to lighten up in my Christian life, I can simply do the next right thing, rather than continuously straining to see through the gloom to something brighter.

Maybe I can serve others, helping with immediate needs while I tell them things my Father would have them know. Maybe I can draw joy from fellowship with people who are walking along with me.{Hah! Tell me, how are we gonna get that little irritating speck of sin out of Brother So-and-So's eye, with this telephone pole hanging out of our own eye? Let's call the tree removal company first, clear up our own storm damage, then we can get out the tweezers to help old Brother So-and-So!"}

And it's OK to have dark times. It's OK to despair. Jesus did. There are some things worth falling to our knees and weeping over.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I wonder if, to really understand the joy of being a child of God, we need to go to some people who have very little and see how they do it.

Every time someone I know comes back from Tanzania, Namibia, Uganda etc, they nearly always have the same two things to say. Firstly, they meet people often infested with AIDS or Malaria, struggling for food, drink and education; and secondly, the same people think nothing of gladly - so gladly - sharing what little they do have with others as a matter of Christian principle and spend hours in their churches on a Sunday - or whenever they worship -noisily praising God.

If so many Christians are able to feel genuine joy at belonging to God, yet having so little to be joyful about - according to our way of thinking - how come we with everything on offer find it hard to even raise a smile in church when it comes to shaking hands with the person next to us?

By the way as sexual promiscuity seems to be such an important part of some people's criteria of 'enjoying ourselves', again taking a look at some African countries, where it's practiced like it's going out of fashion in some cultures, this might suggest the rewards are a little short-lived and have rather fatal tendencies especially for the innocent.

Even in Britain promiscuity isn't risk-free, and while some people are undoubtedly enjoying themselves by sleeping around, the folks who end up catching their STDs probaby aren't.

However, we're talking about 'us', aren't we? Not the hundreds of millions of other people who share the world with us.

Maybe for some of us first-world Christians our lives are too cluttered with 'stuff', including lifestyle choices. And maybe we get more hang-ups as a result and find it harder to relate to the joy of salvation in God, in the childlike way Jesus recommended?

Posted by Angus McDangley (# 11091) on :

I've always liked this poem by Adrian Plass which addresses living a 'Christian Life'

When I became a Christian I said, "Lord, now fill me in,
Tell me what I’ll suffer in this world of shame and sin."
And He said, "Well, Your body may be killed, and left to rot and stink,
Do you still want to follow me?" I said, "Amen! – I think.

I think Amen, Amen I think, I think I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say, my body may be killed and left to rot and stink,
Well, yes, that sounds terrific, Lord, I say Amen – I think.

But, Lord look, there must be other ways to follow you,” I said,
“I really would prefer to end up dying in my bed."
"Well, yes," he said, "you could put up with sneers and scorn and spit,
Do you still want to follow me?" And I said, "Amen! – a bit.

A bit Amen, Amen a bit, a bit I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say I could put up with sneers and also scorn and spit,
Well, yes, I’ve made my mind up, and I say Amen! – a bit.

Well I sat back and thought a while, then tried a different ploy,
Now, Lord, I said, the Good Book says that Christians live in joy."
"That’s true," he said, "you’re gonna need the joy to bear the pain and sorrow,
So do you still want to follow me?" I said, "Amen! – tomorrow.

Tomorrow, Lord, I’ll say it then, that’s when I’ll say Amen,
You see I got to get it clear, could we just run through that again?
You said that I will need the joy, to bear the pain and sorrow,
Well, yes, I think I’ve got it straight, I’ll say, Amen – tomorrow."

He said, "Look, I’m not asking you to spend an hour with me,
A quick salvation sandwich and a cup of sanctity,
The cost is you, not half of you, but every single bit.
Now tell me, will you follow me?" And I said, "Amen! – No, I quit.

I’m very sorry, Lord, I said, I’d like to follow you,
But I don’t think religion is a manly thing to do."
And He said, "You forget religion then, and you think about my Son,
And you tell me if you’re man enough to do what he has done.
Are you man enough to see the need? Are you man enough to go,
Are you man enough to care for those whom no one wants to know?,
Are you man enough to say the thing that people hate to hear?
And battle through Gethsemane in loneliness and fear.
And listen! Are you man enough to stand it at the end,
The moment of betrayal by the kisses of a friend?
Are you man enough to hold your tongue? Are you man enough to cry?
And when the nails break your body – are you man enough to die?

Man enough to take the pain, and wear it like a crown,
Man enough to love the world and turn it upside down,
Are you man enough to follow me, I ask you once again"
I said, "Oh Lord, I’m frightened”, but I also said “Amen”.
Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen,"
I said," Oh Lord, I’m so frightened," but I also said, "Amen."

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

One of the problems with regarding disease as the righteous smiting God inflicts upon sinners is that it leads to the mindset of regarding any attempt to treat or prevent disease as interfering with God and allowing sinners to "get away with it". The same mindset can be seen in the rise in teen pregnancy rates in those American jurisdictions teaching "abstinence only" sex education.

Posted by earrings (# 13306) on :

I've come to this thread a little late but I wondered if I'm the only person struck by this in the OP

quote:

Now, I don't think I'm alone in resenting those who "got the call" much later in life than me. It certainly does feel like they got to have their fun and be Saved while I had to knuckle down and behave myself almost from the start.

It sounds so very like what the elder brother says in the parable of the loving father (prodigal son). There were the pharisees and scribes hating the idea that Jesus would spend his time with tax-collectors and sinners, the johnny and jilly come latelies of religious experiece. The father reminds his older son (symbolic of those joyless pharisees????)that all that he has is his son's and that there is joy to be had, but the son cannot see that and seethes in furious resentment and angst.
Surely, even if we have sowed disappointingly few wild oats (from one perspective) we can stil be aware that we are much-beloved children of God.
[Smile]

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Plus, it shows God's justice to be pretty uneven. e.g., as my dad used to say in the early days of AIDS, if AIDS is God's punishment on sinners, lesbians must be the Chosen People.

Which could be true, of course.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I hope there's nothing in my post that associated the natural consequences of sleeping about with God's smiting anyone! I can't imagine, eg, why God would want to smite the new-born kids infected with sexually transmitted AIDS, or their mothers unaware of the fact that their husbands were AIDS carriers. Or even why he should single out a promiscuous fornicator or adulterer, with a disease, when there are probably some much more dastardly candidates out there getting off scot-free!

Purely on a point of avoiding harm, it would make sense to avoid promiscuity, whether or not Christianity comes into it. But I guess for some of us part of the joy and fun of it, is the risk. Whether or own, or someone else's.

I think, too, it's true that abstention no longer seems to be a viable option for most potentially sexually active people - teenage or not. From society's point of view, our options for safe sexual behaviour seem to have reduced radically in past decades. It's sad but it's a fact to be faced.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
It sounds so very like what the elder brother says in the parable of the loving father (prodigal son).

Don't get me started. I've worked my fucking tits off and denied myself for years to stay with you and serve you, and what do I get? Nothing! This waster spits in your face and pisses off with half your cash, and what does he get when he comes crawling back? A fucking party! Where's my fatted calf? Where's my party? Where's my fucking love? I wanted to be out there living it large as well, you know, but I chose to stay and do the right thing, the honourable thing. What was the bastard point of me being so fucking good if you're going to shit all over it like this? I wasted my life for nothing. Fuck you, and fuck your party.

oops. i got started.

Yeah, I identify with the elder brother. Shit, I am the elder brother.

quote:
we can stil be aware that we are much-beloved children of God.

woo.

[ 24. February 2009, 15:00: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think, too, it's true that abstention no longer seems to be a viable option for most potentially sexually active people - teenage or not. From society's point of view, our options for safe sexual behaviour seem to have reduced radically in past decades. It's sad but it's a fact to be faced.

I think our options for safe sexual behavior have been radically increased over past decades, compared with eras when any STD was a lifelong infection and people still died of syphilis. Of course, that deprives moral scolds of finger-wagging opportunities, but it's an imperfect world. This argument was on display most recently when certain religious groups opposed making the HPV vaccine available because protecting against infection would encourage promiscuity. Yeah, some people would rather their daughters risk cervical cancer than deprive themsevlves of that fear lever.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

The problem isn't that Christians have chosen to avoid sleeping around, even if it might be fun.

The point is that most Christians are so busy finding ways to make themselves limited and/or unhappy that the Christian Way of Life looks pretty sad. There is always someone demanding that we sit and read some Bible verses together, or that we engage in a "weejus" prayer, or that we not indulge in something so natural as dancing for joy, or that we avoid reading a book by a non-Christian author, or that we sing a really tedious mind-numbing crap song (because it is Christian).

Why can't we LIVE?

Posted by MerlintheMad (# 12279) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:

quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
(1 Cor. 15:19)

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.
Where would that leave, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly," or joy being a fruit of the Spirit?

Maybe joy is more like peace, at least here in this world. Life "more abundantly" seems to be referring to eternal life. Paul seems to recognize that the Christian lifestyle is one of denying many impulses/temptations/indulgences, i.e. makes Christians miserable when they compare themselves to the "partying" crowd of hedonists surrounding themselves: and trying to raise children whose friends think that they are weird for not partaking of the same "fun" stuff like everybody else: so if we find out on the other side of death, that our hope was only good for this life (i.e. is not reality in the eternal scheme of things), then our refusal to indulge ourselves fully in the mantra, "try anything once", makes our faith the most miserable lifestyle of all....

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

IME joy comes from "feeling found." When you are around people who think you are valued and necessary -- that no party would be complete without you -- and especially when you are doing things that the group would perceive to be valuable and necessary, and you can tell them about your activities and receive suggestions and praise -- that seems like a source of joy to me.

Small groups in churches (choir, guitar group, etc.) seem most likely to foster a sense of long-term joy. Eucharist is good too -- it reminds of the banquet to which you are invited, and strengthens you to do the good stuff.

Carys' post reminded me that not only individuals can be depressed; congregations can be depressed too. Worse, there can be a bad spirit within congregations which makes a faction of people determined to beat the joy out with a shovel. How you respond to that depends on your own strength and that of a group of people determined to be joyful anyway.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yeah, I identify with the elder brother. Shit, I am the elder brother.

...and, having thought about it, maybe the reason the elder brother wasn't happy about the treatment given to the prodigal was purely because the life he had at home with his father (aka "God") lacked joy. Maybe if he'd had more of a joyful life with his father he'd have been more willing to celebrate when his brother returned?

I see that as quite an indictment of the father, tbh. If you expect your kids to stick around and serve you for life you may as well give them a few perks in the here and now rather than expecting them to toil uncomplainingly until you have the decency to pop your clogs and finally give them their reward...

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

Marvin, I admire your honesty in identifying yourself with the elder brother. I hardly need tell you that you need a big ol' dose of generosity of spirit. Don't make enemies of the newly arrived; party with them, in a spirit of, "Isn't this great? Isn't the host great? What do you think of the veal?"

If joylessness and self-righteousness were the fruits of the elder brother staying on the farm, he would have done better to get his ass off it! Maybe by shaking things up, he would have understood his father better... who turns out not to be a reward-giver (dammit!) but a generous, patient, humble father.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But even if some "get away with it" the danger is real - often kinds of danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more (and because we tend to not believe God).

Do people and groups add silly extra burdensome rules? You betcha. Demand to know the purpose of any suggested rule. If it doesn't have a goal of advancing your health (physical mental, relational), it's not a God rule. "Christians shouldn't enjoy life" is not a God-value, so rules based on nonsense like this aren't from God.

But unlearning the imposed un-Godly "rules" can be real hard.
Isn't that a contradiction? If God's rules are to prevent "danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more", how can we "know the purpose of any suggested rule"? I mean if "because God knows more than you" is a valid explanation anything could be justified.

I can see why you think it's a contradiction. Maybe I can explain better, maybe I can't.

Hmm, starting over, after killing what was getting way too long.

As little kids we don't understand Mommy's rules, because we just can't. But gradually we discover Mom and Dad had good reasons for (most of) their rules (even if because they are human we discover some were not helpful). We start being able to see the purposes for the rules, the advantages to us in following the rules.

So at first we can't understand, but we grow in understanding.

That understanding helps us apply the rules usefully, and reject false applications, or false rules.

Always ask for the purpose of a rule. Superficial answers like "because that's the rule" are for babies, not for grownups. If you (generic "you" throughout) get that answer, you are being treated like a baby.

Ask God the whys of God's rules (or of whatever you were told are God's rules). It may take a while, you may need to grow more before God can explain to you, and we (or I, anyway) grow slowly, but God will show you.

Meanwhile, having discovered God has really good joyful reasons for some of the rules, you can trust that God probably has similarly important reasons for other rules, and trust those rules even before understanding them. So there's a circle: explore, discover reason to trust, explore more, discover that one is still a puzzle, explore more, discover whoops that one has a whole different meaning than you had understood and you've been misapplying what you thought was a God rule, explore more, wow that one is a dynamite expression of God's love even though at first is seemed killjoy.

For most of us the circle starts with being told by others "God is good" and having to start with second hand trust, trust in our teacher to be telling us truth instead of trust directly in God. Exploring gets us relating to God directly instead of remaining dependent on a mere flawed human to teach us what God (supposedly) means.

Sigh, too long and probably reads like mush.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
joylessness and self-righteousness

Is that what it is? Or is it that the elder brother has never recieved anything like that amount of love from his father, despite actively loving and serving him? And that it's obviously going to hurt like hell when he sees the one who never showed any love for his father being treated better than he has ever been treated? How exactly should he react to that kind of rejection, that kind of slap in the face? How do you think it feels to not only suspect, but have it proved that your father loves your brother more than you?

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

One rule gives us more trouble than anything: how to love our neighbour. Would the following scenario ring any bells for anyone?

Can we have a party? Sure! Who wants to bring something? Who'll make the coffee? Well, I don't want to organize it. And J is mad because she made coffee last time, and she makes it all the time, plus it's not Fair Trade coffee, but that costs more so the church ladies don't like it... Ah, hell, I'll just go to the bar instead.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

Marvin - I think you need to have a shouting match with God about this. Confront Him with the fact that you don't feel loved and that it hurts. Confront him with your sense that your life lacks joy - ask Him what he intends to do about it.

[ 24. February 2009, 16:26: Message edited by: Qlib ]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think, too, it's true that abstention no longer seems to be a viable option for most potentially sexually active people - teenage or not. From society's point of view, our options for safe sexual behaviour seem to have reduced radically in past decades. It's sad but it's a fact to be faced.
I think our options for safe sexual behavior have been radically increased over past decades, compared with eras when any STD was a lifelong infection and people still died of syphilis. Of course, that deprives moral scolds of finger-wagging opportunities, but it's an imperfect world. This argument was on display most recently when certain religious groups opposed making the HPV vaccine available because protecting against infection would encourage promiscuity. Yeah, some people would rather their daughters risk cervical cancer than deprive themsevlves of that fear lever.

Yeah, some people would. But that wouldn't be me. So I hope I'm not being associated with that viewpoint. Maybe I ought to have been more emphatic. Once upon a time it was perfectly normal and okay to say 'no' to sex. These days it's a freakish novelty. One less option, apparently, for safe sexual behaviour.

Safe sex, on the other hand, is certainly overflowing with options, greatly increased over the past years and thank God, too. I have no problems with that. For those who decide they want to have sex, I'm glad it's safer, as my comments above on the consequences of unsafe sex, I hope, would have implied.

Nevertheless, sexual behaviour does not have to include penetrative sex or indeed sexual activity of any sort. Human beings are allowed - or at least were allowed - to behave as sexual beings without it being assumed they were inevitably going to fuck. That's the point I'm making. The fact that we live in an age where being sexual is, imv, miscontstrued as all about having sex is, I'm afraid, backed up by your own misunderstanding of this point. Though I concede it's easily done.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Belle:

When you talk to God, that's called "prayer".
When God talks to you, that's called "schizophrenia".

My problem comes from the second leg of your informal "God's rules" flow chart, the process for rejecting rules falsely attributed to God. If the process of determining whether a rule is legitimate "may take a while" and "you may need to grow more before God can explain to you", how can you ever really reject a rule as not really from God? Maybe you just need more time to grow before you see that it was really right after all.

For example, if you're told that God's rules require a father to sell his daughter to her rapist you might say that was crazy. But under your system it could be argued that anyone so objecting just hadn't grown enough to understand the Godly benefits of marriages based on rape and commerce.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I think our options for safe sexual behavior have been radically increased over past decades, compared with eras when any STD was a lifelong infection and people still died of syphilis. Of course, that deprives moral scolds of finger-wagging opportunities, but it's an imperfect world. This argument was on display most recently when certain religious groups opposed making the HPV vaccine available because protecting against infection would encourage promiscuity. Yeah, some people would rather their daughters risk cervical cancer than deprive themsevlves of that fear lever.
Yeah, some people would. But that wouldn't be me. So I hope I'm not being associated with that viewpoint. Maybe I ought to have been more emphatic. Once upon a time it was perfectly normal and okay to say 'no' to sex. These days it's a freakish novelty. One less option, apparently, for safe sexual behaviour.

Ah, "once upon a time", the favorite setting for myths and færie tales! Unless by "perfectly normal" you mean something chosen by 10% of the population, as opposed to a "freakish novelty" practiced by only 5%. (Full study here. Warning: PDF) What's changed in recent years seems more to be people's honesty about what they're up to. Unless by "once upon a time" you mean "a time so remote it no longer exists in living memory and thus can't be contradicted by reliable data".

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Safe sex, on the other hand, is certainly overflowing with options, greatly increased over the past years and thank God, too.

Perhaps some thanks could also be left over for thousands of medical researchers working diligently for years to improve the human condition?

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I have no problems with that. For those who decide they want to have sex, I'm glad it's safer, as my comments above on the consequences of unsafe sex, I hope, would have implied.

Nevertheless, sexual behaviour does not have to include penetrative sex or indeed sexual activity of any sort. Human beings are allowed - or at least were allowed - to behave as sexual beings without it being assumed they were inevitably going to fuck. That's the point I'm making. The fact that we live in an age where being sexual is, imv, miscontstrued as all about having sex is, I'm afraid, backed up by your own misunderstanding of this point. Though I concede it's easily done.

I'm a little unclear on the distinction you're trying to make between "sexual behaviour" and "sexual activity". Doesn't "behaviour" imply at least some level of "activity"? If someone were criticized for their behaviour in any other context I'd assume the criticism would be of actions taken by them (i.e. "activity").

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Fuck you, and fuck your party.

Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Going back to the "unGodly rules" thing: I'd almost think that more people have been turned off church by the infinitesimally-small detailed rules (e.g. what you wear to be in "church" or whether an alb is allowable on a particular day or who gets to do which minor job) than are upset about the "moral" rules for sexual conduct (which at least have arguable reasons, such as disease or interpersonal reactions)

My wife still carries a chip from being told that she wasn't fit to be in the church building, when she turned up as a teenager to help clean the church on a Friday night, and she wasn't wearing a handkerchief on her head "because women were supposed to have their heads covered". And it wasn't just the instruction, it was the "you can't be saved because of this" attitude. Let alone the obvious unfitness, still, for women in Certain Positions That Matter in the Church (Baptist, Anglican or RC, to my experience)

On Sunday past, two of the ladies were barely able to speak to each other over which person (neither being present!) was supposed to pass out the bulletins that day, in a congo of 17! (although, TBF, the rest of the congo didn't rise to the bait)

And my daughter in Sydney tells me that she had to open up a separate room for the youth to be in at coffee time, because having youth around for coffee was too disruptive for the adults - and the youth were clearly too dangerous in the Kitchen (one's turn on the coffee-rota is part of a highly-competitive structure run by People Who Matter). The obvious result is that the Youth group numbers about 10 in a congo of over 100.

What joy is there?

And, why would any sane young person ever come into a church again? Clearly, an incidental hook-up has the potential for, at least, some fun, and might lead to a deeper personal interaction.

It is exactly this disconnect between what Jesus taught and what churches do that has me on the "leaving" edge of participation.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.

Which version of Christianity would that be, Ruth? You think turning up to services and not rocking the boat is what it's all about?

[ 24. February 2009, 19:38: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Okay, just to put myself out there: I don't particularly receive joy from reading the Bible and don't usually feel my mood is particularly different after praying or other religious acts.
I don't think the Christian life causes or prevents joy. The church tends to give me joy and being in a community of people who are trying to follow God tends to give me joy, but I don't go to church becuase it's fun. I go to church to be with other Christians. Worthwhile, interesting, peace-giving, useful, food for thought all seem better words for the Christian life than joyful. I don't see anything bad about that. (Pace, all those people who are going to tell me that if I were a good Christian, I'd be joyful.)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Marv, if it makes you feel any better, I've heard this argument before, and the people I tend to hear this argument from are former/ active missionaries, and career religious folk. Of any stripe. Oh, and a lot of the Saints bitched about this stuff, too.

It's not that we want to be "carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease'. it just that if you are making an effort --an ACTIVE effort-- to do things that will benefit the Kingdom of God and the human race in general, you'd like to think that God would be on the same page with that. While you try to be fruitful and multiply, you hope that some of the shit thrown at you will be fertilizer, but often it feels like roots are being cut. It's hard to distinguish between the trials that help you grow and damage that stunts your growth.

Being on the opposite side of the end of that story can be scary, frustrating,infuriating, and disheartening . I hope that God of all people knows that, if some of my bretheren have a problem parsing it.

(Not necessarily answering you, Marv, just chewing philisophical cud. But God love you for your honesty.It can only help)

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.
Which version of Christianity would that be, Ruth? You think turning up to services and not rocking the boat is what it's all about?

How in the name of sweet peas did you get that out of what Ruth wrote???

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
most Christians are so busy finding ways to make themselves limited and/or unhappy that the Christian Way of Life looks pretty sad. There is always someone demanding that we sit and read some Bible verses together, or that we engage in a "weejus" prayer, or that we not indulge in something so natural as dancing for joy, or that we avoid reading a book by a non-Christian author, or that we sing a really tedious mind-numbing crap song (because it is Christian).

Why can't we LIVE?

Philip J. Lee thinks that these attitudes stem from gnosticism.

Posted by Waterchaser (# 11005) on :

And he's written a very expensive book to say this. [Razz]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.
Which version of Christianity would that be, Ruth? You think turning up to services and not rocking the boat is what it's all about?
How in the name of sweet peas did you get that out of what Ruth wrote???

He didn't. He got it out of other exchanges he and I have had, before I started scrolling past his posts.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
joylessness and self-righteousness
Is that what it is? Or is it that the elder brother has never recieved anything like that amount of love from his father, despite actively loving and serving him? And that it's obviously going to hurt like hell when he sees the one who never showed any love for his father being treated better than he has ever been treated? How exactly should he react to that kind of rejection, that kind of slap in the face? How do you think it feels to not only suspect, but have it proved that your father loves your brother more than you?

The passage directly addresses this. "You are always with me, and all that I have is yours" doesn't cut the mustard?

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

For me, the joylessness of being a Christian has little or nothing to do with envying wither the fleshpots or other Christians. It's just about the sheer unremitting slog, the never having a day's peace from a God who demands, demands, demands ... The daily round of unanswered prayer and unconsoled tears, and the knowledge that if I gave it all up I'd burn for ever.

I mean, whoop-de-flaming-doo.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
How in the name of sweet peas did you get that out of what Ruth wrote???

Ruth seemed to be implying (and some of her past posts have given a similar impression) that 'being a Christian' is something you choose, a religion you learn. If it gets too hard, or maybe you just fancy a change, then I imagine it's simply a case of chucking it in.

I was noting that not everyone, me for example, sees it like that. Some of us are where we are not because we much like most of what our Church does. It just happens to be where we've ended up. Where against the odds our search for truth has brought us, and where for now at least, however awkwardly, we seem to belong.

Uncomfortable for Ruth, perhaps - but she's got her scroll bar.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

For some of it's a choice we keep making, day after day, not a life sentence we can't get out of.

Posted by Serra_Angel (# 5368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.
Joy isn't the same with being happy though. The joy the Holy Spirit's presence brings can co-exist with sorrow (again, a gift of the Holy Spirit, to be sorrowful for the pain of the world) and it's not to be confused with "being happy" sentimentalism in my view.

Thank you Andrew and Carys -- it seemed to me that the place to start is by defining "joy," which you so aptly note is not synonymous with "happy" or "happiness." One can suffer from depression and still live joyfully; joy is an action, I think, more than a feeling.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Theoretically, one of the benefits of being a Christian is that you are supposed to have access to brothers and sisters in the Spirit who, at the very least, can potentially remind you through their consolation and their prescence that God is present, too. God never said, "And they will know you by your doubt-free, discouragement-free existance."

But the Christian tendancy to (as Pat Boone once put it) "shoot our wounded"-- and in this case he was referring to the very public wavering of faith of his friend B.J. Thomas, and the subsequent scorn he recieved from the A-List Born-Again set --makes it that much harder to access that particular resource. How can you dare admit that you are foundering when too many of those around you might declare that means you have chucked everything?

(Sorry, that was to Adeodatus)

Posted by Kid Who Cracked (# 13963) on :

Can those who distinguish between joy and happiness tell what that difference is, and can you prove that the Christian life is joyful?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I totally fail to relate to people who find "The Christian Life" an agony, and who dread going to church every Sunday. As a depressive most of life isn't a ball of joystuff, but going to Church is for me a highlight of the week, and the quiet acceptance I find there is a sort of (quiet) joy.

I know, I know, whooop de doo. I have to agree with RuthW, though: if being a Christian is really making someone's life a living Hell, why put up with it? Why not just pack it in?

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Personally I define joy as a permanent and underlying positive state of mind, closely related to peace and contentment, though a little more active than either of those. "Happiness" I would define as taking pleasure in the present circumstances. With that working definition I would say that for a Christian joy can be present whether or not you are happy at any given moment.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Trudy, it sounds like your "joy" is just another name for a positive outlook and relatively good digestion. An inherited personality trait, more a matter of luck than creed. I wish I had it, or could associate it with being a Christian to the extent that I might expect to receive it at some time short of the parousia. It seems cruel to people with mood disorders to equate it with Christianity.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Well, that is pretty much what I said in my first post on this thread -- that what I consider "joy" is far more innate to some people than to others. Yes, I'm lucky to be a basically joyful person. And no, that's not fair, but then I think about the fruits of the spirit that Paul lists in Galatians 5. Surely all of us have some gifts in greater measure than others -- some that come more naturally to us?

I find it easy to be joyful, and peaceful, and surely that is all a matter of genetics and environment and stuff. I don't find it at all easy to be patient or kind. Other Christians may just overflow with patient kindness -- I know many of these -- but find it a struggle to be joyful, maybe because they suffer from depression or because their lives just suck.

Which just goes back to my original point that there's no value in comparing ourselves to other people. The fact that I'm more joyful than you doesn't mean I'm a better Christian or that the Spirit is blessing me more. It means we're different in a variety of ways, and that's one of them. The relevant question is, am I more joyful than I would be without Christ (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes: I think as non-Christian I'd still have a basically cheerful disposition, but without the underlying sense of peace and purpose my faith gives me). Are you? (Your earlier post seems to indicate that perhaps you are).

Am I more loving, patient and kind than I would be without Christ? I hope so. Those gifts don't come as easily to me; they're definitely more of a struggle. I think the thing with joy and peace is that we're more likely to use them as a ruler to judge our own Christian experience ("I must not be a good Christian, or else God must not be very good to me, because I don't feel as joyful as my neighbour seems to"). Whereas with things like love, patience, etc., it's more likely to be others looking on who judge ("Trudy's obviously not a very good Christian because I just saw her being impatient and unkind -- or else her God is not really that good at making people patient and kind, because she's much less patient and kind than her genuinely nice atheist friend.") It's a flawed yardstick because there are so many other factors apart from our Christian faith, that influence whether we are joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, etc. Ideally, as we grow in grace through the Spirit, all of these qualities should be increasing in all of us, but I doubt for most of us it's a steady progression that would plot a smooth upward line on a "Fruits of the Spirit" graph.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why not just pack it in?

Can't answer for Marv, but having Been There:

In my last post, I made reference to "the end of the story", and long past the point I could edit and explain, I realised I got that concept form the book Schindler's List One of the women in the Auswich sub camp begins talking about killing herself, her friend intervenes by saying, "but if you do, you'll never know what became of you."

Maybe this is the mustard seed of faith Jesus was talking about-- or not-- but during those really bleak times, when even the act of raising your hopes seems like some sort of black comedy set-up for falling on your face, you can at least maintain that curiosity about how your story will turn out.

(For the record, I feel like I am personally back in a place where being a part of worship evokes feelings of peace and contentment, but boy, did I have to climb over a hell of a lot of PTSD to get there. It's been about 15 years since I have felt this way.)

[ 25. February 2009, 00:56: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I wouldn't go back to being without Christ. Even though my life with him is externally far, far more difficult for just that reason.

My Dad wanted me to go to Stanford and be a doctor. I had the brains for it. And his thinking was AFAIK that that way I'd make a lot of money and be happy with lots of power and respect and a chance at getting whatever things I happened to want. Oh, and he didn't want me to marry, but to live with someone, so as to avoid all the heartaches of a troubled marriage.

It didn't exactly work out that way (and boy, did he let me have it when he discovered I was going into mission service AND marrying a pastor). And I've caught a lot of hell for being both Christian and called to full-time (though non-professional) service. Sleepless nights, boredom up the wazoo, endless paperwork, slander, lies and stalking, finances usually on the brink, stress and so forth. Not to mention watching my non-Christian friends and relatives take cruises, buy granite countertops, get respect AND salaries at least three times mine, and all at a younger age than I am now.

Does it piss me off? Yes. Would I trade, if I had to give up Christ? No.

I don't think joy and happiness are the same thing, most of the time. I think you can suffer and have joy at the same time. And I strongly suspect that a lot of my own drudgery isn't imposed by God at all, it's my own crappy thinking screwing me up. I mean, he's told me to trust him, he's promised to care for me and supply my needs, he's told me I'm forgiven... so why do I waste so many hours fussing about this crap? It isn't his fault.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
When we follow a Leader whose very purpose and plan, in His coming to lead us, included a nasty, brutish, insulting, torturous death, it probably shouldn't shock us when we too have our darknesses.

One of the big things about Christianity for me is the absolute certainty, even when in darkest pain, that somehow it all makes sense, somehow it's all for my eternal wellbeing, the pain is not random and pointless. Underneath the pain and grief and aloneness and blackness that sometimes hits hard through life circumstances, is a floor. The floor is God's promise that all things work for our good.

Jesus - the Bible says what he went through was for his perfection. I don't know what that means, except that it was for him, too, not only for us.

Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
joylessness and self-righteousness
Is that what it is? Or is it that the elder brother has never recieved anything like that amount of love from his father, despite actively loving and serving him? And that it's obviously going to hurt like hell when he sees the one who never showed any love for his father being treated better than he has ever been treated? How exactly should he react to that kind of rejection, that kind of slap in the face? How do you think it feels to not only suspect, but have it proved that your father loves your brother more than you?

I'm not sure, in this story, that I believe the older brother. The father replies "you are always with me, and all I have is yours." ie, what the younger brother got, he could have had anyway. He just wanted to work for it, and be rewarded rather than enjoy the Father's universal kindness.

Which makes me think discussion of this parable might have been a red herring as I'm not sure it's Marvin's situation as he describes it.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have to agree with RuthW, though: if being a Christian is really making someone's life a living Hell, why put up with it? Why not just pack it in?

Where else is there to go? He still holds the keys of eternal life, after all.

I honestly wouldn't mind giving up the fun stuff if there was a bit more compensation before death is all. The older brother may know he's going to get the whole farm when his father dies, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't like to have the odd party thrown/fatted calf killed in his honour as well. Is that really so much to ask?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I've also identified with the elder brother in the prodigal son parable for a long time now and a lot of what Marvin says sounds very familiar to me. But at the end of the day, I can't imagine life without Christianity and the vocation and all that (and I wouldn't give it up for anything) even if I do often think "Can't I just have a normal life like everyone else?" The difficulty, I think, is living in that tension. I don't think that's ever going to be easy. Worship is about the only place where it makes any sense at all.

[ 25. February 2009, 10:42: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The passage directly addresses this. "You are always with me, and all that I have is yours" doesn't cut the mustard?

No, frankly.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

That has to be held in contrast to the earlier verse where the son says 'you have never given me even a young goat'. It's only when the younger son has come back that the Father affirms his love for the elder son, by which time it might seem rather hollow.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

Indeed.

Posted by Hermes66 (# 12156) on :

quote:
Now, I don't think I'm alone in resenting those who "got the call" much later in life than me. It certainly does feel like they got to have their fun and be Saved while I had to knuckle down and behave myself almost from the start.

Some of us didn't want 'the call' and are still fighting against it for all the reasons you state. One of them being, why pick on me, I'm busy having fun?

I've always identified with the Prodigal and been identified as a bad example since school days. I've had a blast, but it's not all been fun. It takes a lot of nerve to go home, admit you were wrong and ask your family's forgiveness.

There's a lot to be said for a quiet life. God knows it's what I'd like.

Posted by Pepe Duboir (# 14569) on :

but that doesn't mean he wouldn't like to have the odd party thrown/fatted calf killed in his honour as well. Is that really so much to ask?

Have the odd party, do the stuff that's "not allowed". Try it out. Having become a Christian at 38 I have seen both sides of the coin I think. My late teens and twenties were spent playing in rock bands, riding motorbikes, drinking, taking drugs and indulging in a fair amount of fornication. Some of it was great fun, lots of it that should have been fun somehow wasn't.

After becoming a Christian I'm afraid I became a bit over zealous (which is not uncommon from what I've heard). I threw out all my un-Christian music, wouldn't watch any film that contained sex or swearing and stopped drinking. It's been a few years since then, I've eased up a lot and I agree with what Eckadimmock said earlier; what's most important is to be a Christian where it matters,to be kind, generous and understanding, certainly not pious and judgmental.

My life now isn't always a joy, but my life before was even less so. I can still do most of the stuff I used to before, apart from the bikes, cos I can't get a weeks shopping or my son's drum kit on a bike, and it's not fornication anymore cos I'm married. Just ease up on yourself Marvin. If it's eating you up this much mate, give some of the things you feel you are missing out on a go, God has forgiven people for worse.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm a little unclear on the distinction you're trying to make between "sexual behaviour" and "sexual activity". Doesn't "behaviour" imply at least some level of "activity"? If someone were criticized for their behaviour in any other context I'd assume the criticism would be of actions taken by them (i.e. "activity").

The problem may be the phrase 'sexual activity'. So far in this thread it seems to have been taken to mean mainly sexual intercourse, because we've been talking about STDS etc. That's maybe been misleading.

By sexual behaviour, I mean all the behaviours which can relate to one as a sexual being; this would include all kinds of sexual activity including intercourse, but by no means would it equate to this alone. It would also include, eg, whether or not to have sex at all, one's thoughts, attitudes, one's whole sense of self as a sexual person etc.

Again, I would say you can behave sexually, or as a sexual being, without having sexual intercourse. I'm afraid I can't state it any more explicity so I apologise if the distinction remains obscure. But I admit I may be using the terms imprecisely!

But why speak of criticism? Observation is enough. I would've thought practicing safe sex was a commendable thing, in itself. Whereas sexual activities which spread harm would generally be thought of as not a good thing, surely? I'm sure the two often go together, as well!

I'm grateful for your quoting the data. I know there is bound to be a lot of cover-up when people hark back to 'olden days'. But I also know that my mother's generation - and in the rather old-fashioned country I grew up in - it was perfectly normal for girls to feel justified in saying no when boys or men pressed for sex.

Whether they did or not is another matter, of course. And of course they might have said 'no' and not meant it! As you rightly point out there has always been a lot of hypocrisy about! But I do think it is harder now for people to say no to sex, than it was before. And I don't think that's necessarily always a good thing.

We don't seem to have that moral justification any more to the same extent, to say no. In other words if someone refuses to have sex it's not because it would be 'wrong', but because they don't fancy that person. It's possible some people would like to know that their feelings of it's being 'wrong' for whatever reason, for having sex with someone is respected as much as the 'well, I don't fancy you' approach.

By thanking God as I do for the safe sex campaigns we have, I am of course thanking God for the way he works through human beings; not being aware that he has personally opened 'God Laboratories Inc' and dons the white coat to do all the research himself. I'm sure you don't really think that anyone can actually imagine that God waves a magic wand and makes safe sex happen without the use of people, research, institutions, charities, funds, etc etc etc.

It isn't an entirely strange thing for Christians to thank God for the good things that happen in the world through the efforts of talented and hard-working people. Though I do understand and respect that many non-Christians are irritated by it.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
For some of it's a choice we keep making, day after day, not a life sentence we can't get out of.

Being born is a life sentence, if you want to put it like that.

I guess it's different understandings of being Christian. You're seeing it as a package, a framework for life, a religion to practice. For me it's identification with the values that are reflected in who Jesus was. What matters is where we end up, in the sense of what is important to us. I don't see that's something we can realistically opt out of.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
That has to be held in contrast to the earlier verse where the son says 'you have never given me even a young goat'. It's only when the younger son has come back that the Father affirms his love for the elder son, by which time it might seem rather hollow.

The Father replied to his elder son that 'all I have is yours'. I don't think the elder son was all that interested in having a party of his own at all. He just begrudged the sinner being welcomed back, because he thought it wasn't fair. And who can't identify with that?

However, if the Father in the parable is meant to be a type of God - which Jesus seems to suggest - then it would seem that the elder son has, all his life, been in possession of the most incredible generosity, love and kindness of his Father. While the prodigal was starving on a pig farm, apparantly dead to the world, the elder son was comfortable, well-off and much loved.

What it would appear he was not, was aware of this or grateful for it. Perhaps he felt that all this was the very least he deserved because he wasn't a dreadful sinner like his brother, and had been a good boy?

I can certainly identify with the elder son because self-pity is a very strong element of much of human nature, including my own. And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.

Is there any reason to suppose that if the tables had been turned the Father would have behaved any differently? It's another telling of the workers in the vineyard tale; doubting the generosity of the person who gives others more than they deserve, because we feel it somehow means we're being slighted. Even though the same generosity has been present all the time.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.

Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been nice once in a while...

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Belle: If the process of determining whether a rule is legitimate "may take a while" and "you may need to grow more before God can explain to you", how can you ever really reject a rule as not really from God? Maybe you just need more time to grow before you see that it was really right after all.

Learning what are the real rules (I prefer the word "guidelines") and how to apply them starts with relying on what your "elders" teach. But doesn't stop there. (Too many people stop there, thinking of God's guidelines for life as arbitrary rules imposed by force.)

Hearing from God is usually through circumstances, but hearing God's "voice" directly is so common in the Bible that to dismiss it as mental illness is to dismiss all the prophets as mentally ill. Without the prophets, what is left of Christianity?

Guidelines we see in the Bible, or hear from our "elders," we need to learn where they come from and WHY. Your daughter must marry her rapist? Would you prefer that she be killed for being "impure"? Given the era, that may well be what people were used to. Or banish her to somehow live on her own apart from the tribe until a wild animal got her. "No one is going to marry a tainted woman." (Hey, I was taught in USA in the 50s that a woman who lost her viginity before marriage is "used merchandise" and won't find a husband and will be an impoverished spinster. Impoverished because most jobs that would support a household were closed to women.)

You have got to focus on the why, not the what. Whole comedy movies are built around rules mindlessly applied in the wrong circumstances because the characters are not looking at the purpose and whether that purpose applies.

But the other piece is, there is no punishment for ignoring the guidelines, just like there is no punishment for trying to ignore gravity or for eating nothing but sugar. You may get diabetes and cavities from the sugar, you may die from jumping out of an airplane, but God isn't punishing you. You did something stupid that just about anyone, religious or not, could have warned you against, and you suffered the natural consequences of your stupid behavior.

The guidelines are to protect us and help us grow healthier and wiser. That's a lifelong process.

We are free to explore, try things. But for your own safety, do listen to the wisdom of those who have been there ahead of you, listen to the why not just the what.

Does the culture get some of it wrong? Oh, gosh yes, that's why exploring is so important instead of mindlessly accepting hand me down rules. But explore safely. It's one thing to ask "why, what's the goal" but dangerous to blindly rebel saying "I don't like that rule, so I'm not doing it."

We've got an obesity epidemic because so many people blindly reject the guidelines for healthy living.

We've got road rage issues because so many people don't believe in forgiving and praying for the "enemy" who disses you in his driving style.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Belle - Given the importance you place on exploring and using our own judgment, why not cut out the "middle man" and go with Reason instead of God?

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
I guess it's different understandings of being Christian. You're seeing it as a package, a framework for life, a religion to practice.

No. It's a choice, but you're making it sound like I'm going through a buffet line, which is not how I see it.

quote:
For me it's identification with the values that are reflected in who Jesus was. What matters is where we end up, in the sense of what is important to us. I don't see that's something we can realistically opt out of.

I look at it like loving someone. The married couples I know who have relationships I envy (as opposed to the ones who make me happy I live alone) all talk about loving someone over the long haul as a choice they keep making, day after day. My relationship with my closest friend is similar; we could have drifted apart or let the varying circumstances of our lives erode our friendship, but we have made conscious efforts to preserve and develop it. A third example: I started a relationship with a really great guy a few months ago. He's perfect for me, the person I've always wanted and never thought I'd find, etc etc. But my word, I'm 46 years old, and it's just been me and the cat for a long time, so this is re-arranging my life in a big way, and I can't help but be conscious of it as a choice. It's unthinkable for me to walk away from this man, but going forward with this relationship is still a choice.

Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
That has to be held in contrast to the earlier verse where the son says 'you have never given me even a young goat'. It's only when the younger son has come back that the Father affirms his love for the elder son, by which time it might seem rather hollow.

Although the point is, I think, that the older son is invited to the party for the younger son's return, so he doesn't need his own. The whole point of the parable, I think, is to challenge us wanting stuff for ourselves as those "who do not need to repent" and join in with the Father's heart for those who do.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

I think that if you don't understand the saying that to serve God "is perfect freedom" something is very wrong and you need to look outside your current faith and practice and also look inside - inside yourself, I mean.

You might find Zen helpful. The 'Ordinary Mind' school is good - you don't have to abandon Christianity, even if you take (some of) the ideas in the book on board - and I'm not suggesting you do that, but you may find that it gives you useful ways to think about stuff.

Another really good book for thinking about what 'happiness', 'joy' and 'contentment' mean is this one by the Dalai Lama. Again, it's not about becoming a Buddhist, just light from another direction - which, when you're feeling dark - and you certainly seem pretty dark at the moment - may be helpful.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been nice once in a while...

It's tempting to make more of the story than Jesus intended. As Jesus didn't say what the Father did or didn't do, we can only make up our own stories to fill in the gaps. All we do know is the elder son complained. Whether rightly or wrongly, again, is left unsaid.

And it's clear from his complaint his real problem is not that he is being slighted so much, but that someone who he doesn't think deserves consideration is getting it.

However we've got to remember, the Father is a fictional character who didn't exist at all except as an allegorical figure for the person of God the Father.

Logically, then the story is, from the elder brother's standpoint, first and foremost about the righteous man who begrudges the unrighteous man God's forgiveness if and when he receives it. The theme is mirrored in a number of Jesus' parables. Of course, many righteous people do indeed consider themselves slighted by God who they believe acts unfairly towards them.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Although the point is, I think, that the older son is invited to the party for the younger son's return, so he doesn't need his own. The whole point of the parable, I think, is to challenge us wanting stuff for ourselves as those "who do not need to repent" and join in with the Father's heart for those who do.

"I don't know why you're complaining we never gave you birthday party, Cooper. We always invited you to your brother Brick's party. Isn't that good enough?"

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been nice once in a while...

Part of the problem, Marv, is that you are one of those folks who brings a great deal of blessing to the world not by doing dramatic, earth shaking things, but simply by being the kind of person you are. And people like you are always going to get stiffed, because your friends/ co-workers/overseers are going to occasionally mutter to themselves,"Gee, one day I've got to figure out how to put into words how much I value Marv's presence--" and at that moment, they'll be distracted by a lot of drama and they will neglect this nudge from the Spirit.

Maybe it works both ways, though. Maybe a big party isn't such a great big deal, and maybe working side by side in the fields with someone is the longer-lasting treasure. And maybe the father's answer to "You don't appreciate me" is "I always thought I did!"

In any case, as I am writing this, I realise that I don't really see people's diminished sense of value as God's fault-- it's people's fault. I know full well there are people in my life who mean the world to me, but whom I neglect because I know they will remain constant with very little effort from me. I know that there are people out there who probably think that they are on terrific terms with me when I am stewing under the awareness that they haven't offered me a kind, friendly word in literally years.

Question: do you think the Older Brother in the story would have been quite as bitter if the Younger Brother had approached him and said, "Boy, I missed you. Thank you for holding down the fort." ?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Leprechaun said:
Although the point is, I think, that the older son is invited to the party for the younger son's return, so he doesn't need his own. The whole point of the parable, I think, is to challenge us wanting stuff for ourselves as those "who do not need to repent" and join in with the Father's heart for those who do.

I don't think that's really true to the text. Verses 25 and 26:

quote:
Now his elder son was in the field; and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. He called one of the slaves and asked what was going on.

The party's in full swing, the elder son doesn't know what's happening and so he asks a slave. His father doesn't even come to speak to him until he gets cross. To me the parable leaves us with this disagreement between father and elder son. We're left with the father's affirmation and nothing as to the elder son's response. Is that affirmation truly gracious, grace upon grace? Alternatively, is it too little too late? I think you can read the text both ways. Does the elder son go in to the party, reconciled to his father and brother? Or does he say, "You must be joking" and leave? It seems to me that either of those could be plausible endings to this parable.

[ 25. February 2009, 22:12: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Belle, it's a total tangent, but the law about a woman marrying her rapist wasn't somehow to punish her. It was to enforce the only kind of restitution possible from such a jackass at that point in history--that is, to force him to give her an honorable place in society and to support her for the rest of her life. To underline that last bit, he had the right of divorce taken away from him--any other man could divorce, but not this one. So the woman now had all the power.

And if she looked at him and the whole package and still said "I can't stomach that asshole" (and who could blame her?) he would be forced to pay brideprice anyway, for her support. Which would be a pretty hefty item (and probably delay or destroy any chance he had of marrying elsewhere).

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

As for the elder brother--I've felt the same way (God, why doesn't anyone appreciate me? like, You?) and gotten the same answer I guess, "You and I are always together, and everything I have is yours." (Note that last bit--Dad hasn't revoked his gift to the elder son either, even in light of the prodigal's return.)

Sure, I wish God would throw me a party. But I suspect I've probably got the better deal in the long run. And I don't think God minds me bitching to him once in a while. The elder son had it right--at least TELL Dad what's bugging you, so you can get it dealt with.

At work today I was reading one of those anecdotes that come through every so often--some career missionary who came back to the States sick after 50 years in the field. He had the bad luck to show up home at the same time as the president. And of course, his own arrival was held up and complicated by all the band playing and flag waving going on for the POTUS.

Feeling a bit sorry for himself, he complained to God. "I've served you for fifty years, and not a single person is here to welcome ME home." And God said, "You're not home yet."

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Feeling a bit sorry for himself, he complained to God. "I've served you for fifty years, and not a single person is here to welcome ME home." And God said, "You're not home yet."

Point taken, and more power to the man for finding a way to cope with his dissapointment graciously-- but seriously, nobody could meet him?

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I don't know, there was no other context given. Maybe the poor guy had outlived all his nearest and dearest? (And I'm sorry to say I've known mission boards that callous)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
(And I'm sorry to say I've known mission boards that callous)

Tell me.

I guess what I'm saying is, while it is all well and good to tell people that they should change thier attitudes when they are feeling invisible and neglected,and certainly marks them as healthy people when they can, when does the attitude of (say) a callous mission board come under accountablility? Or is there a danger that the invocation of "the Older Brother" when people articulate feelings of neglect gives folk a pass to, well, ignore those articulations?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Why didn't the older brother throw his own goddamned party sometime in all those years? Why wait for the old man to throw one? What a big baby. "You never gave me a kid." Well it's all yours, doofus. Every kid on the plantation is yours. Go kill one and throw a party. Waa-fucking-aah.

[ 26. February 2009, 02:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Eckadimmock (# 14214) on :

Why didn't the two whiny kids throw a party for their dad for that matter? Ingrates.

Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
The party's in full swing, the elder son doesn't know what's happening and so he asks a slave. His father doesn't even come to speak to him until he gets cross. To me the parable leaves us with this disagreement between father and elder son. We're left with the father's affirmation and nothing as to the elder son's response. Is that affirmation truly gracious, grace upon grace? Alternatively, is it too little too late? I think you can read the text both ways. Does the elder son go in to the party, reconciled to his father and brother? Or does he say, "You must be joking" and leave? It seems to me that either of those could be plausible endings to this parable.

I agree with you about the ending. But why is Jesus telling the story? Surely not to affirm the Pharisees in their "older brother" attitude but to ask them to join in with God's joy in welcoming the lost rather than demanding God make a big fuss of their good works.

Croesos - I think you hit the nail on the head, despite attempting to be facetious. Why should I need my own party, if, like God I love to welcome home the lost? Isn't that party enough? I guess that for me is the question - is God's joy in saving people who are lost enough for me, or do I want God to make a big deal of me, the one who has already come home. It's a challenging question.

Posted by sanityman (# 11598) on :

Parables aside, wasn't the point of the OP that Christians claim to have "life more abundantly," but in practice feel the disapproval of their co-religionists on their shoulders if they have too much fun? I'm not talking about drugs and lots of casual sex, I'm thinking of anything which isn't explicitly "Christian" - so you get ersatz pop music, ersatz art which is pretty much always a pale imitation of the real thing, because the real thing is deemed a bit "dodgy."

As for joy, I really do not know the first fucking thing about it. It's just a word. The only thing I know about is stuff like this, for which I don't have words (YMMV greatly).

- Chris.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

I've just read through this thread and wondered whether the notion that coveting was wrong might have something to say. Coveting was illuminated for me very well by the horrible Hannibal Lecter in "The Silence of the Lambs". Something along these lines

Hannibal Lecter: And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now.
Clarice Starling: No. We just...
Hannibal Lecter: No. We begin by coveting what we see every day.

I think coveting may be one of the real engine of joylessness. Wanting what we see someone else has got gets in the way of being thankful for what we have. And I don't think it matters whether you are Christian or not. If as a child your Christmas presents sometimes seemed in some way diminished by those received by others, then you know the territory.

Of course this can easily be seen as just another "Thou shalt not" to add to all the others. Hey, sensible prohibitions are a good thing! This one strikes me as pretty sensible, once you consider the baleful, joy-diminishing, effects that coveting can have.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

[Overused]

Barnabas.

To add a new wrinkle, I'm not sure it's a bad thing to covet more of God's love, mercy, attention, etc. as long as this isn't done with a view toward diminishing anyone else's "share" of God's love, mercy, attention, etc. My own little guy used to come and hang on me when he was feeling needy, and sometimes even shout "Pay attention to me!" That didn't do him any harm in my eyes. [Axe murder]

But maybe it stops being coveting when what you're after isn't someone else's share, but just a bigger portion for yourself?

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
Parables aside, wasn't the point of the OP that Christians claim to have "life more abundantly," but in practice feel the disapproval of their co-religionists on their shoulders if they have too much fun?

Yes, except I don't think it's just the disapproval of their co-religionists. I think it's the disapproval that's inherent in religion, or the Abrahamic ones at least, bound up in the burden of sin. By that I don't mean "the burden of my sins" as most Christians would think of it, but the very concept of sin.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't believe in sin. That sin doesn't exist. That the whole concept of sin is an oppressive man-made concept designed as a means of social and moral control. To that extent it's no different to any other man-made law, except that as it tied up to religion it's much more long-lasting and insidious in its effect.

But the idea of sin is essential to the Church; they have a symbiotic relationship. The Church needs it as a recruiting tool and the idea of sin would drop away if the church didn't keep banging on about it.

Religion hangs the idea of sin round your neck like a bloody great millstone, and every Sunday it gives it another yank to make sure you're still feeling properly guilty, whilst pretending that confession etc is actually relieving you of the burden of sin. What really does free you from the burden of sin is to realise it doesn't exist, that you are not and never have been a sinner. Then you can cut the rope and leave the millstone behind.

[ 26. February 2009, 12:01: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]

Posted by Paul M (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why didn't the older brother throw his own goddamned party sometime in all those years? Why wait for the old man to throw one? What a big baby. "You never gave me a kid." Well it's all yours, doofus. Every kid on the plantation is yours. Go kill one and throw a party. Waa-fucking-aah.

How did he know (prior to this) that it was all his? Acting like you've already inherited your parents' wealth while they're still around is (at the very least) asshole-ish behaviour in contemporary culture, I can't imagine it was looked on more favourably in Jesus' time.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
Parables aside, wasn't the point of the OP that Christians claim to have "life more abundantly," but in practice feel the disapproval of their co-religionists on their shoulders if they have too much fun?
Yes, except I don't think it's just the disapproval of their co-religionists. I think it's the disapproval that's inherent in religion, or the Abrahamic ones at least, bound up in the burden of sin. By that I don't mean "the burden of my sins" as most Christians would think of it, but the very concept of sin.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't believe in sin. That sin doesn't exist. That the whole concept of sin is an oppressive man-made concept designed as a means of social and moral control. To that extent it's no different to any other man-made law, except that as it tied up to religion it's much more long-lasting and insidious in its effect.

But the idea of sin is essential to the Church; they have a symbiotic relationship. The Church needs it as a recruiting tool and the idea of sin would drop away if the church didn't keep banging on about it.

Religion hangs the idea of sin round your neck like a bloody great millstone, and every Sunday it gives it another yank to make sure you're still feeling properly guilty, whilst pretending that confession etc is actually relieving you of the burden of sin. What really does free you from the burden of sin is to realise it doesn't exist, that you are not and never have been a sinner. Then you can cut the rope and leave the millstone behind.

But isn't saying that we sin just another way of saying that we do wrong, which we all do? I'm not sure how you can do away with the concept of sin without doing away with the concept that some things are wrong and that we should feel guilty for doing them. Just because Christians deal with the concept of sin badly doesn't mean that the concept is invalid.

Sorry if I'm misreading your post...

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

No it's perfectly possible to recognise that some actions are wrong, or at least should be avoided, without dressing it up in the cosmic language of sin. I'm sure most atheists and most peoples who have never been exposed to Christianity manage to do it. But turning it into sin creates a completely different beast. The scope changes, e.g. the surveillance of the heavenly thought police; the timescale changes, up to the idea of final judgement and beyond with all the implications of that; and, as I said before, it's power as a means of control.

Posted by sanityman (# 11598) on :

ETA: x-posted, sorry!

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
Parables aside, wasn't the point of the OP that Christians claim to have "life more abundantly," but in practice feel the disapproval of their co-religionists on their shoulders if they have too much fun?
Yes, except I don't think it's just the disapproval of their co-religionists. I think it's the disapproval that's inherent in religion, or the Abrahamic ones at least, bound up in the burden of sin. By that I don't mean "the burden of my sins" as most Christians would think of it, but the very concept of sin.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't believe in sin. That sin doesn't exist. That the whole concept of sin is an oppressive man-made concept designed as a means of social and moral control. To that extent it's no different to any other man-made law, except that as it tied up to religion it's much more long-lasting and insidious in its effect.

But the idea of sin is essential to the Church; they have a symbiotic relationship. The Church needs it as a recruiting tool and the idea of sin would drop away if the church didn't keep banging on about it.

Religion hangs the idea of sin round your neck like a bloody great millstone, and every Sunday it gives it another yank to make sure you're still feeling properly guilty, whilst pretending that confession etc is actually relieving you of the burden of sin. What really does free you from the burden of sin is to realise it doesn't exist, that you are not and never have been a sinner. Then you can cut the rope and leave the millstone behind.

I'm a bit concerned that several people on this thread seem to equate sin with fun. Now if your (generic your) idea of fun involves damaging yourself or others then I think you have to examine your concept of fun; if it doesn't then I'd examine whether the act is actually sinful. The question of why church people are suspicious of these things would still stand.

I have a lot of sympathy with what you say, but suspect there may be a baby somewhere in the bathwater you're throwing out. To me, your point would be just as well made by jettisoning guilt rather than the whole concept of sin. I have a particular distaste for the "sell the problem, then the solution" school of evangelism, but losing sight of the undeniable fact that some of our behaviour is self-destructive and hurtful to others doesn't seem a helpful approach.

Surely the good news is that God has dealt with the sin and guilt? Why make people miserable and guilty by concentrating on the bad stuff?

- Chris.

[ 26. February 2009, 12:52: Message edited by: sanityman ]

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
But turning it into sin creates a completely different beast. The scope changes, e.g. the surveillance of the heavenly thought police; the timescale changes, up to the idea of final judgement and beyond with all the implications of that; and, as I said before, it's power as a means of control.

Is it possible not to turn it into sin in a theistic framework though?

For me at least the change is often positive. A concept of sin at least assumes the idea that no one gets away with their wrong-doing, which is pretty comforting for the victims. IME the more secure and powerful one is the more one tends to dislike the idea of sin.

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
No it's perfectly possible to recognise that some actions are wrong, or at least should be avoided, without dressing it up in the cosmic language of sin. I'm sure most atheists and most peoples who have never been exposed to Christianity manage to do it.

Is it? What makes an action wrong outside a theistic framework?

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
No it's perfectly possible to recognise that some actions are wrong, or at least should be avoided, without dressing it up in the cosmic language of sin. I'm sure most atheists and most peoples who have never been exposed to Christianity manage to do it.
Is it? What makes an action wrong outside a theistic framework?

I could equally ask why is a theistic framework necessary to realise a wrong action. Are you saying that atheists cannot do that? But what would be your basis for saying so? Similar questions have been asked before on the Ship and one of the features of the discussion seemed to be an inability on the part of the Christians to understand different mindsets, or even to recognise that one is possible.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Belle - Given the importance you place on exploring and using our own judgment, why not cut out the "middle man" and go with Reason instead of God?

I don't understand the question. Reason and God are not synonymous.

For example, "don't murder" is endorsed by most cultures and religions (that I know of). Kant (reason) might say murder is wrong because if murder is OK society will collapse because no one will be safe. God says murder is wrong because you are destroying an image of God. Whole different purpose behind the warning. God's purpose teaches a whole attitude toward other people, and attitude to be pursued through other than just not murdering. (God's reason is stated in one of the books of Moses, I've forgotten which one.)

We start with the rule. But we have to look for God's purpose, which may not be what "reason" alone would suggest.

"You have to go to church" or "you have to go to this church" - the ones who insist on the rule and refuse to allow exploration of what is the underlying purpose and is it a valid purpose and is it's application through this rule valid, are the one who are most likely to have destructive to you purposes, like enhancing their own power.

But I'm getting off non-essential web for Lent, so for me I'm out of this discussion.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
I have a lot of sympathy with what you [Pre-cambrian] say, but suspect there may be a baby somewhere in the bathwater you're throwing out. To me, your point would be just as well made by jettisoning guilt rather than the whole concept of sin.

I don't think we have the option of jettisoning guilt. That would be, sociopathic tendencies apart, denying a universal aspect of human experience. Guilt is what we get from comparing our behaviour with real human standards, either our own personal expectations of ourself or those of the wider community.

Sin is the result of using God's standards. However loudly and consistently religious people claim they know what these are, they really don't. Sin is the artificial concept. I agree with Pre-cambrian.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Belle, it's a total tangent, but the law about a woman marrying her rapist wasn't somehow to punish her. It was to enforce the only kind of restitution possible from such a jackass at that point in history--that is, to force him to give her an honorable place in society and to support her for the rest of her life. To underline that last bit, he had the right of divorce taken away from him--any other man could divorce, but not this one. So the woman now had all the power.

And if she looked at him and the whole package and still said "I can't stomach that asshole" (and who could blame her?) he would be forced to pay brideprice anyway, for her support. Which would be a pretty hefty item (and probably delay or destroy any chance he had of marrying elsewhere).

That was my point! But you may have worded it a lot better. It's not a punishment for her, it's a protection for her, he can't do a one night stand and discard her the next morning as if dirt.

And the punishment threat to him would help keep the pants on a man.

Often laws aren't - and probably weren't - enforced as written, they give bargaining positions. "By law I am allowed to require this of you, what are you going to do for me so I don't insist on imposing the law?" Like you said, suddenly the woman has all the bargaining power. That's really uncomfortable for some men, especially given that rape is a power play.

It's a classic "eye for an eye" solution - he took power over her, she now has power over him. Nice turnabout.

But I'm getting off line for Lent, just trying to finish out anything I might have left hanging.

Posted by sanityman (# 11598) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
I have a lot of sympathy with what you [Pre-cambrian] say, but suspect there may be a baby somewhere in the bathwater you're throwing out. To me, your point would be just as well made by jettisoning guilt rather than the whole concept of sin.
I don't think we have the option of jettisoning guilt. That would be, sociopathic tendencies apart, denying a universal aspect of human experience. Guilt is what we get from comparing our behaviour with real human standards, either our own personal expectations of ourself or those of the wider community.

Sin is the result of using God's standards. However loudly and consistently religious people claim they know what these are, they really don't. Sin is the artificial concept. I agree with Pre-cambrian.

If you're saying that claiming diving sanction for a load of pettifogging human regulations and societal conventions is bad, then fine. If you're saying that God is uninterested in our behaviour, then you seem to be talking Deism rather than Christianity.

Guilt due to having violated one's conscience is, I agree, not something I'd particularly wish to do away with. Guilt-trips imposed by the church when it should be preaching reconciliation, OTOH, was what I was referring to, and what I was assuming was being objected to in the word "sin."

- Chris.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
If you're saying that God is uninterested in our behaviour, then you seem to be talking Deism rather than Christianity.

I wasn't. But if Christianity is about what is true, it's hard to see how it can justify claims for God even knowing about human behaviour, let alone having opinions about it. That needn't in my view imply Deism.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Belle, it's a total tangent, but the law about a woman marrying her rapist wasn't somehow to punish her. It was to enforce the only kind of restitution possible from such a jackass at that point in history--that is, to force him to give her an honorable place in society and to support her for the rest of her life. To underline that last bit, he had the right of divorce taken away from him--any other man could divorce, but not this one. So the woman now had all the power.

And if she looked at him and the whole package and still said "I can't stomach that asshole" (and who could blame her?) he would be forced to pay brideprice anyway, for her support. Which would be a pretty hefty item (and probably delay or destroy any chance he had of marrying elsewhere).

I think you're missing some key points here. First, the woman isn't given the option of refusing such a marriage. It "must" occur. And yes, her rapist loses the power to divorce her, but the Bible also includes no law permitting women to initiate divorces. So essentially the woman's "power" in this case consists of being forced to live under the same roof with her rapist and him getting legal authority to rape her repeatedly at will. That'll teach him!

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
That was my point! But you may have worded it a lot better. It's not a punishment for her, it's a protection for her, he can't do a one night stand and discard her the next morning as if dirt.

And the punishment threat to him would help keep the pants on a man.

Often laws aren't - and probably weren't - enforced as written, they give bargaining positions. "By law I am allowed to require this of you, what are you going to do for me so I don't insist on imposing the law?" Like you said, suddenly the woman has all the bargaining power. That's really uncomfortable for some men, especially given that rape is a power play.

It's a classic "eye for an eye" solution - he took power over her, she now has power over him. Nice turnabout.

But I'm getting off line for Lent, just trying to finish out anything I might have left hanging.

The other key point is that the Bible does not regard the woman as the injured party but rather her father. That's who gets the payment indicated and who would be doing any negotiating about marriage to the rapist. And, once again, the "power" involved is the "threat" to sell the rapist his daughter as a sex toy.

Posted by wehyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
The only thing I know about is stuff like this, for which I don't have words (YMMV greatly).

- Chris.

Very nice. Thank you.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I've just read through this thread and wondered whether the notion that coveting was wrong might have something to say. Coveting was illuminated for me very well by the horrible Hannibal Lecter in "The Silence of the Lambs". Something along these lines

Hannibal Lecter: And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now.
Clarice Starling: No. We just...
Hannibal Lecter: No. We begin by coveting what we see every day.

I think coveting may be one of the real engine of joylessness. Wanting what we see someone else has got gets in the way of being thankful for what we have. And I don't think it matters whether you are Christian or not. If as a child your Christmas presents sometimes seemed in some way diminished by those received by others, then you know the territory.

Of course this can easily be seen as just another "Thou shalt not" to add to all the others. Hey, sensible prohibitions are a good thing! This one strikes me as pretty sensible, once you consider the baleful, joy-diminishing, effects that coveting can have.

Totally agreed, and that's definitely a big message in the parable.

Personally, what set me off was the idea that someone articulating their feelings of covetessness, neglect, or whatever was a sign that they should just pitch the church.

Right now I am in a timidly good place with the church. But God forbid I forget what it was like to struggle. And some of the struggles people had in my home congregation were provoked by this sense that there really was an A-list of people worth noticing and a B-list of people that couldn't cut it. (For the record, I would describe my family-- and myself-- as A-listers; I just never understood how we got there, or why some people I considered strong, fruitful members of the congregation were treated like background artists for the important folk. Even when it benefited me sometimes.)

There are people who fall through the cracks, and if the reason some people are falling through the cracks is that they are sent the message that foundering is not an option-- that's a problem.

I guess I am saying, rather than focusing all our attention of the person who articulates the feelings of neglect, we should take a millisecond or two to consider whether or not they have a case.[Noted that in the case of the OP we can't do that.]If we consider it, and we really see no reason for such a beef, so be it, shrug and carry on. If there is-- we need to see what the crack is made of, and how we can seal it. Can't really do that unless we get the folks input.So basically telling them,"Well, if you feel that way, why are you a Christian?" doesn't really help.

Example: A girl in my youth group was labeled by the pastor as an airhead. He lead the Bible study. Every time she spoke up in class, the pastor would re-frame her remark into "bubbleheaded" and snicker at this. I would do what I could to kind of drag things back to whatever point she might be making-- and honestly, she sometimes had a point-- but one day it bugged me so much that I took the pastor aside, pointed out that the girl in question was a gifted writer and had more to her than met the eye, and asked him if this couldn't be the one place where nobody called her an airhead-- where people actually looked for something else in her. Pastor put on his Thoughtful Face, but nothing much changed. We lost her to the folks at Vineyard. At least somebody found a place for her.

That girl had every right to feel neglected, unimportant, and unappreciated. People were making an effort to help her feel that way. It wasn't God's fault, and it really and truly wasn't her fault.

I felt that it was my job as a Christian to (at least) not contribute to that kind of waste of human resources, if not even figure out ways to actively combat it.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Paul M:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why didn't the older brother throw his own goddamned party sometime in all those years? Why wait for the old man to throw one? What a big baby. "You never gave me a kid." Well it's all yours, doofus. Every kid on the plantation is yours. Go kill one and throw a party. Waa-fucking-aah.
How did he know (prior to this) that it was all his? Acting like you've already inherited your parents' wealth while they're still around is (at the very least) asshole-ish behaviour in contemporary culture, I can't imagine it was looked on more favourably in Jesus' time.

You're right, there's no way he could have asked or anything. The only way he could have a party was to wait patiently for diddums to throw him one.

Posted by Paul M (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]]You're right, there's no way he could have asked or anything. The only way he could have a party was to wait patiently for diddums to throw him one.

Of course he could have asked but equally he may never have.

It's just not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Paul M:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]]You're right, there's no way he could have asked or anything. The only way he could have a party was to wait patiently for diddums to throw him one.
Of course he could have asked but equally he may never have.

It's just not as black and white as you make it out to be.

You mistake me. I am fighting the black-and-whiteness of the other side.

Posted by Paul M (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Paul M:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're right, there's no way he could have asked or anything. The only way he could have a party was to wait patiently for diddums to throw him one.
Of course he could have asked but equally he may never have.

It's just not as black and white as you make it out to be.
You mistake me. I am fighting the black-and-whiteness of the other side.

Fair enough, but FWIW, I don't think sarcasm and ridicule are the best weapons for that.

Posted by Jon G (# 4704) on :

quote:
Originally Posted by Croesus
The other key point is that the Bible does not regard the woman as the injured party but rather her father. That's who gets the payment indicated and who would be doing any negotiating about marriage to the rapist. And, once again, the "power" involved is the "threat" to sell the rapist his daughter as a sex toy.

Isn't this just another example of attaching a twenty first century value system to a Bronze age one.

I enjoy reading the Bible because of the thousands of years of accumulated wisdom, and insight into the darkness of the human condition. I also enjoy reading it because it reminds me that every generation struggled to get all the answers, and that includes this one.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Croesos, I was citing a parallel passage in which the girl (okay, technically the girl's father gets rights of refusal over the rape/marriage. Late for work now, can't dig it up but will try to remember later.

As for Dad's involvement--as I said, it was the best justice could do under the circumstances at the time. As Jesus said with regard to the laws on divorce, "This commandment was given you because of the hardness of your hearts. But from the beginning it was not so...

In the very patriarchal society of ancient Israel, the father WAS in fact the spokesman for the whole house. If the family was a healthy one, this made him his daughter's natural protector and advocate. If it was not, that's more of the shit that comes from living in a fallen world. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

But God was NOT giving either of the men involved the right to sell the woman as a sex toy. God was doing the best he could within a sin-permeated culture to get realistic protection and restitution for a badly wronged woman who would otherwise suffer all her life.

We might argue with his choice and say that the rapist ought to have been put to death. Fair enough. But given the (sinful and inescapable) local culture, that would almost certainly condemn the woman to a life without marriage, which at that time for women meant a life without honorable social standing and without financial support--in other words, a high chance of either starving or being forced into prostitution to survive.

Given those grim choices, marriage to one's rapist might seem the lesser evil. But the asshole has to be alive to make restitution.

I think we'd better quit the tangent now, or carry it to Kerygmania.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Leprechaun said:
I agree with you about the ending. But why is Jesus telling the story? Surely not to affirm the Pharisees in their "older brother" attitude but to ask them to join in with God's joy in welcoming the lost rather than demanding God make a big fuss of their good works.

That's an interesting question. Just taking the parable itself, we have no context other than "Then he said". In that situation, I think I'm most inclined to read it as a story about families, about honouring your father and mother and about parents caring for your children. I'd then want to ask questions about the father's care for his sons: why did the younger leave? why is the elder so disgruntled? Is the Father really caring for them? From the other side, it seems that both sons in different ways dishonoured their father, who welcomes them both back in: the younger son definitely accepts and we're left wondering about the elder son. So maybe Jesus is telling a story about inclusion in the kingdom of God whatever your sin...

If we look broader, we have the two parables that precede it about a lost sheep and a lost coin, and we have an audience of scribes and Pharisees complaining that Jesus welcomes sinners. And the three seem to be saying that God loves the lost and welcomes them. But I wonder if then the prodigal son parable is actually affirming God's welcome of both scribes and Pharisees and the sinners with whom Jesus eats... embodied in the two sons who have both dishonoured their father. And if a human father (to whom we can also attribute some fault maybe) does that, how much more does God?

But then it's followed by the parable of the dishonest manager - another story about squandering, which makes me think that it's not a coincidence that they're together. Furthermore, in verse 14, the Pharisees reappear and we're told that they 'heard all this' so that perhaps also suggests that the four belong together. And even this dishonest manager is welcomed in and not thrown out. So I think in total, I'd say that it's about the universality of human sinfulness in all its diverse forms and the unfailing mercy of God.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jon G:
Isn't this just another example of attaching a twenty first century value system to a Bronze age one.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As for Dad's involvement--as I said, it was the best justice could do under the circumstances at the time. . . .

We might argue with his choice and say that the rapist ought to have been put to death. Fair enough. But given the (sinful and inescapable) local culture, that would almost certainly condemn the woman to a life without marriage, which at that time for women meant a life without honorable social standing and without financial support--in other words, a high chance of either starving or being forced into prostitution to survive.

Bringing this back to the original point, don't these arguments amount to saying we should use our experience and common sense (i.e. Reason) instead of relying on God's purported laws? I see a lot of equivocating about varying cultural norms and the limitations within which a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent being must work, but no one seems willing to argue that God made the right call and that's the rule that should be followed today. So if we're supposed to use our (supposedly God-given) sense to reason through to the correct moral answers, why not just cut out the middle-man and chuck morality-by-divine-fiat altogether?

Posted by Jon G (# 4704) on :

I'm going to try and keep this thread on track by arguing that true freedom and therefore joy can come through understanding your context and limits both inner and outer.

Croesus, this talk of rationality and common sense was used by eugenicists, imperialists and fascists in the last century and look where that got us?!

I believe the struggle to understand God's word forces us to confront the barriers that exist within us and within the structures of our society. If we assume that there's some kind of acontextual truth out there, whether God shaped or human shaped, that we have a special insight into - then all kinds of mistakes happen - not least a loss of joy and contentment.

(Incidentally, I'm not arguing that there isn't a God shaped truth out there - but that it's incarnational, and I don't have special insight into him/her)

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jon G:
Croesus, this talk of rationality and common sense was used by eugenicists, imperialists and fascists in the last century and look where that got us?!

Abdicating reason when approaching moral questions has an even more dubious record in recent history. There's a reason the phrase "I was only following orders" is so infamous.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Paul M:
Fair enough, but FWIW, I don't think sarcasm and ridicule are the best weapons for that.

You'll note that "Diddums" neither invited his oldest son to leave, nor called him a crybaby and ridiculed him. He heard the guy out and addressed his question respectfully.

What an enabler, right? [Roll Eyes]

And, by the way, whose "side" was the father on? From my read, he wasn't really taking "sides." He was trying to connect everybody.

Funnily enough, the more I think about this parable, the more I put myself in the place of a party guest looking on and hoping this troubled family can sort things out. I want to rejoice in the young one's return, but I want to comfort the elder as well. Because they are both part of the family.

[ 27. February 2009, 18:28: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :

Marvin, you're not the elder brother, you're the younger one. "Father, give me my share of the estate. Now."

I wonder if you might be better off going and doing as the younger brother did, and then coming back in ten years and seeing whether or not your views have changed.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

I think you might be on to something, Talitha, but I don't think it's personal to Marvin.

In a way, most of us are the elder brother and we secretly (or not-so-secretly, on this thread) envy the younger brother and his fun.

At the same time we want to be sensible and safe - we know that the price for fun can be destitution and part of us, whilst remaining outwardly benevolent and "good", gets a little thrill of schadenfreude from contemplating the downfall of our feckless, fun-loving counterparts.

How annoying, then, when the feckless brother is saved from the consequences of his own folly by the father's love. Suddenly, our goodness seems to count for nothing and, worst of all, instead of looking good we look fucking stupid - we could have had our fun and then come back to a safe home and a party. Instead, what is our reward - oh yeah, we get to work in the fields. [Disappointed]

There are times when Jesus talks about people who are publicly good getting their reward on earth - public admiration, but this is one of many stories which warns us that a law based on Love can in some ways be just as demanding as one based on Justice. A Loving God can be a bit tiresome - because He expects us to love Him instead of doing what we do because we want to sit on a cloud with the good guys enjoying the torments of the damned.

Ostensibly the main point of the story is about the Love and Forgiveness of God - but it's a warning - this is a challenging Gospel. Maybe the way the older brother feels is actually the main point. It teaches us things about ourselves that maybe we'd rather not know.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
It teaches us things about ourselves that maybe we'd rather not know.

On that note, if this parable is indeed aimed at the "pharisaical" mindset, isn't one such tendency that of honing in on somebody else's flaws, rather than admitting your own?

I said it several posts back and i mean it-- more power to Marv, and anybody else who is willing, for admitting they feel those feelings occasionally. Shutting up about it and pretending you don't might make everybody else more comfortable, but it smacks of a weird emotional prosperity gospel to me.

Few weeks ago, I was in a training seminar about "diversity' and we had to do this weird exercise in which we formed a tight circle, began a random conversation centering around a "staff pot luck", and deliberately refused to let another staff member who'd been removed from the room enter the circle (without talking to them or acknowledging their presence in any way.)

it was all in fun, the outsiders caught on quickly and fought back in hilarious ways, and everybody shook hands all around afterward.
In the after discussion , I started talking about how I'd deliberately enacted some tricks that had been used on me (For instance, I would wait a couple minutes and repeat something the "outsider" in our group had said, as if I'd thought of it myself.)I admitted that when I did this I felt this strange forbidden thrill that I hadn't expected, and was both troubled and interested by it.

Another woman in the group glared at me and said "well, I didn't feel good at ALL! I thought it was AWFUL!" and at that point, if anybody had any thoughts of discussing what people might actually get out of excluding others, they were too ashamed to do it.

And I still think, after 4 weeks or so, what a lost opportunity! Of course people must get something out of excluding others, otherwise it wouldn't happen on such a regular basis-- but what chance are we going to get to discuss those kinds of "not nice" feelings, and how we can cope with/ master them, if there is a load of shame dumped on someone willing to voice those feelings?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
How annoying, then, when the feckless brother is saved from the consequences of his own folly by the father's love. Suddenly, our goodness seems to count for nothing and, worst of all, instead of looking good we look fucking stupid - we could have had our fun and then come back to a safe home and a party. Instead, what is our reward - oh yeah, we get to work in the fields.

My point exactly. Or, more accurately, part of my point.

The rest of my point consists of asking why being good is so darn joyless. If it was more joyful, there wouldn't be so much of a problem with not being out there having fun...

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

And part of my point is that we are called to love God - obeying Him should be secondary. And the idea is that, if we truly love God, sticking with Him and obeying Him will be a joy.

Which it can be. Sometimes. I think. At least, I think I think.

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

Kelly, I suppose that lady is either one who got squelched when she tried to open up about the negatives in herself -- or she's seen others get squelched and fears that for herself.

Or, she fears seeing anything in herself like that reptilian frisson of dark power, because she's a squelcher. Perhaps, to her, one is "good" via conformity to whatever "good" is supposed to be, and one falls from grace when a foot steps wrongly.

*******************************************

Does "So why isn't the Christian life a joy?" really mean "Why am I expected to forswear all the fun? Why, in the Christian life, are all these rigid expectations dumped on me, and where the heck do they come from?" --

Or, "When will my outlook, my joy and everything else, finally come from inside me, dependent upon how I relate to God, rather than from the externals?"

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

Both, really.

Posted by TomOfTarsus (# 3053) on :

OP'd by Janine:

quote:
Or, "When will my outlook, my joy and everything else, finally come from inside me, dependent upon how I relate to God, rather than from the externals?"

Nicely put. I thought that was what the Holy Spirit was supposed to do - "Out of him shall flow rivers of living water," etc. But I can certainly understand anyone geeting in a funk once in a while.

Still, have we managed to separate joy from mere happiness at this point? I haven't been able to catch up with the whole thread.

We had a very bad weekend. I was threatened (or thought I was being threatend) with devastating legal action from people I thought loved me. My 11 y.o. grandaughter was dragged through dregs of family mud that she never needed to know about, by someone who (as near as I can tell) had entirely selfish and vengeful reasons and never considered the effect that it would have on the girl. Due to all this, Mrs. ToT & I began our 34th wedding anniversary under sad and upset conditions.

But in the end it was the faith of Christ that lifted our spirits; the joy never really goes, the knowledge that we are the objects of His amazing grace and unfathomable love. Rehearsing these truths and vowing not to let the effects of satan-like action (the accuser, the one whose goal is to kill and destroy) made the joy of our salvation tht much more precious and real. By the end of the day we were committed to each other more deeply that ever, and committed to bringing life and health back to the family, and we learned more about what our Lord must have felt so many times, even from us- the stabbing pain of betrayal and bewilderment, the stunning sense of loss - and He still goes on loving. Not molly-coddling, but loving in His deep, rugged, and passionate way.

As to Christian pleasure, I will repeat what I said earlier. If you stand at the edge of God's pasture, constantly looking over the fence at where you aren't allowed to go (for your good, I might add, as any good parent does with their children), you will miss the beauty and freedom of the wide pasture He has given us to romp in. I could list endlessly the recreational resources and activities available that are "lawful", if you will. Even drink the apsotle says, within reason, and he contrasts being "drunk with wine" with being filled with the Spirit because being filled with the Spirit beats any bender you could go on, and there's no headache the next morning.

My sins are not a good memory to me. They will be a source of grief until the day I die.

Well, I've been sitting on this all morning, I'd better let it go, the thread has probably moved on.

Blessings, all

Tom

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

Marvin: ISTM that "joy" and "having fun" are two different things, which you are conflating. You may feel joyful when you are having fun; you may not. You may feel joyful in perfect silence, stillness, and solitude. You may be out having fun without a solid base of joy underneath the experience.

Probably you need to go out and have more fun (who doesn't?) instead of pissing and moaning about it to your keyboard. Having fun involves finding people of similar interests and humour. It may be hard to find those people within your church community. So? Find 'em somewhere else.

Maybe the issue is the kind of fun you are wishing to have. TofT is right: certain kinds of "fun" are over the line, as far as living a Christian life is concerned. You may wish to argue where the line is. You may wish to argue with the force of negation (does it mean "DON'T EVER" as divine command, or "You probably shouldn't, because it's not a good idea and you'll wind up sorry" as existential observation?) But you cannot argue that there isn't a line -- however porous, culturally determined, or negotiable you think it is. Cross the line, and you wind up in territory that brings you closer to pain, addiction, dehumanization, and you can't predict whether you'll fall into them or not. The wise avoid.

If the real issue is joy, then start yelling at God about it. "Hey! I need some joy over here!" To mix parables for a moment: if God is the owner of the vineyard and we are employees, employees have the right to ask for the equipment they need to do the job. Sometimes God is slow about delivery, but God will supply.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
It sounds so very like what the elder brother says in the parable of the loving father (prodigal son).
Don't get me started. I've worked my fucking tits off and denied myself for years to stay with you and serve you, and what do I get? Nothing! This waster spits in your face and pisses off with half your cash, and what does he get when he comes crawling back? A fucking party! Where's my fatted calf? Where's my party? Where's my fucking love? I wanted to be out there living it large as well, you know, but I chose to stay and do the right thing, the honourable thing. What was the bastard point of me being so fucking good if you're going to shit all over it like this? I wasted my life for nothing. Fuck you, and fuck your party.

oops. i got started.

Yeah, I identify with the elder brother. Shit, I am the elder brother.

quote:
we can stil be aware that we are much-beloved children of God.

woo.

I feel your pain. I identify with the elder brother here BOTH because I am a cradle Christian and because I am, actually, the elder sibling.

I don't really have an answer to how we're supposed to feel about this situation and I suspect it will continue to bug me throughout my life. However, if I ask myself - well, how DO I want the story to turn out - what are the other options? Do I want the prodigal son to be told that he's made his bed and now he can lie in it, that it's too late to be sorry, that he's wrecked everything and he can just go back and eat with the pigs because that's what a pig like him deserves? And I find the answer is no. No, I wouldn't want either my earthly or my heavenly father to be that kind of person. And I'm relieved that neither of them are. Where exactly that leaves the elder [sons] amongst us, I don't know, but at least we are not labouring day in and day out for a bitter, revenge-addled monster...

(to which you may justifiably say - 'woo').
[Big Grin]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Face it, Marvin, you're just turning into a grumpy old man. It happens to most people of a certain age, and is a highly honourable estate.

You can be a grumpy old non-Christian man, or a grumpy old Christian man. It's up to you.

Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Face it, Marvin, you're just turning into a grumpy old man. It happens to most people of a certain age, and is a highly honourable estate.

You can be a grumpy old non-Christian man, or a grumpy old Christian man. It's up to you.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Face it, Marvin, you're just turning into a grumpy old man. It happens to most people of a certain age, and is a highly honourable estate.

You can be a grumpy old non-Christian man, or a grumpy old Christian man. It's up to you.

Actually, statistically speaking, most people turn into grumpy old women.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Bringing this back to the original point, don't these arguments amount to saying we should use our experience and common sense (i.e. Reason) instead of relying on God's purported laws? I see a lot of equivocating about varying cultural norms and the limitations within which a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent being must work, but no one seems willing to argue that God made the right call and that's the rule that should be followed today. So if we're supposed to use our (supposedly God-given) sense to reason through to the correct moral answers, why not just cut out the middle-man and chuck morality-by-divine-fiat altogether?

Actually, most Christians take a middle-of-the-road approach. We don't live in an ancient Hebrew theocracy, and so simply accepting the laws as they stand in our current circumstances is ridiculous, and IMHO not what God expects of us. I mean, really: can you imagine the chaos if every New Yorker disdained flush toilets in favor of tramping outside the city limits with a shovel to do his business?

On the other hand, human reason is demonstrably darkened and corrupted by sin. Without the divine fiat (fiats? fiatae? whatever) to keep human reason more or less in line, we get into all kinds of shit. Like eugenics and etc.

So we're walking a balancing line, but it's really not as hard as you're making out to tell where to step. At a guess I'd say Christians agree on 99.99% of it. It's the .01 bit that gets all the headlines.

Posted by Geneviève (# 9098) on :

The Christian life as presented, taught, or emphasized in somebranches of the Christian tradition can be grim, fear provoking, boring, stultifying, etc. I would imagine that might be true of other religious traditions.
Thus, I am not sure that generalizations are serving a purpose here, nor does nitpicking advance the conversation.
I can truly say that in my own life I have been much happier in general, and have experienced deep joy, since I returned to the Christian faith as an adult. (Aspects of the Christian faith as taught to me as a child were so boring and punitive that I left the church for 10 years.) I like myself better, I have a sense of purpose, and I believe that I am a better person in terms of the way I relate to others.
And I have lots of fun. As others have noted, I can do just about anything I want except things that are harmful to me, and would be, no matter what. I certainly learned some of that the hard way when I was younger.
No, being a Christian does not protect one from sorrow, tragedy, illness, downsizing, difficulty in relationships, etc. Terrible things happen in life, as part of the condition of being human.
I think the bottom line is that I have experienced the love of God, am a more loving (I hope and pray) person, and thus have found a measure of joy.
ISTM that each person has to answer the question of what brings joy for her or himself. I doubt one has to be Christian to experience joy, meaning, and adventure in life either. As we say here, YMMV.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Or, she fears seeing anything in herself like that reptilian frisson of dark power, because she's a squelcher. Perhaps, to her, one is "good" via conformity to whatever "good" is supposed to be, and one falls from grace when a foot steps wrongly.

This seems to be the closest to my experience (thankfully brief) of working with her. She seemed to be the kind of person whose #1 topic of conversation was what everybody was doing wrong and how much better she was doing.

I am much more inclined to trust someone that says "Sometimes I hate my kids and most of the human race as well" than somebody who carries on that way.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
However, if I ask myself - well, how DO I want the story to turn out - what are the other options? Do I want the prodigal son to be told that he's made his bed and now he can lie in it, that it's too late to be sorry, that he's wrecked everything and he can just go back and eat with the pigs because that's what a pig like him deserves? And I find the answer is no.

Good point, well made. It's not so much that I want the prodigal to suffer, it's more that I'd like there to be a bit more of a payoff for doing the right thing, you know?

By way of providing a different way of looking at this, picture a church - the clergy and elders there spend a huge amount of time welcoming newcomers (and returners) and being really friendly to them, but the people who come every week without fail are just given a service sheet and left alone. They are taken for granted. And it's not that I'm saying that that church shouldn't be welcoming to newcomers, but it would be good for them to do stuff for the "every weekers" as well.

Do you see what I mean? Now apply that thinking to the father in the parable, or indeed to the work of the Holy Spirit in us all...

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Face it, Marvin, you're just turning into a grumpy old man. It happens to most people of a certain age, and is a highly honourable estate.

Well, I have just turned 30...

[ 04. March 2009, 09:25: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Marvin

That is just your church culture. At my home church it is inverted. People who come week after week are welcomed and chatted to but it takes weeks for people apart from the minister and one or two others to notice a new person. The welcoming a new person is growing, but it certainly still is the minority and the regulars will always get a big welcome.

My placement church seems to have got a better balance. You get a big welcome whoever you are normally.

Jengie

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

sigh.

I wasn't talking about a specific church. I was giving a hypothetical example - telling a parable of my own, you might say.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Well maybe its time you started distinguishing the kingdom from the church. The parable of the prodigal son is a parable of the Kingdom. The Church is not the kingdom. It does not behave like the kingdom and it never has done. It is a human institution as well as divinely called community. It always demonstrates its spiritual amphibious nature.

So if you are saying that you associate with being the elder son, is that a complaint against the Church or against the kingdom?

If against the church then it can be pointed out the church is only like that in places. If against the kingdom then why choose such a church related example.

The parable I would choose is the parable of the vineyard. It is worth remembering that the labourers who work all day, are given a fair days wage. What robs them of their joy is the fact others who have not worked like them get the same amount. Or to be more precise they see salvation as something earned and feel cheated when others get it with out the hard work they have done. It is making the comparison that steals the joy not the fact the landowner gives the others more than they are due. It is about attitude, deep seated attitude. Please note I have worked this out simply because I had to for myself. These are hard lessons I have had to learn. I don't think it would have mattered what the owner paid the labourers the ones who worked all day would still have thought they deserved more than those who worked less.

The secret of joy is given us by the prophet Micah "walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). If you think that is easy, you simply have not tried. When we learn to live in relationship with God without behaving like jealous siblings "Is God loving X more than me?" then we begin to learn joy. New Christians often experience it simply because they have no sense that they should be comparing themselves with others so they don't. The advantage of being a beginner is you know you are a beginner so not very good or deserving. So everything that comes to you comes as a gift. It is when we think our work makes us deserving that we loose the joy of the gift.

Jengie

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I don't know if this is related at all or not, but lately I've found myself thinking wistfully of other times in life (like v. young childhood) when people actually took care of me, rather than me having to take care of them all the time. I keep thinking that it sure would be nice to have someone hover over me solicitously, even once in a year, and ask how I'm doing, offer to fetch me some tea, whatever.

But that only happens when I'm so badly off I can't appreciate it or enjoy it (like after emergency surgery). And I try to remind myself that I should be grateful it's there for the times I really need it, and not complain that it's not there for the times I simply want it. But I'm afraid I'm not listening to me.

Sometimes I just want a vacation from the Christian life--not because it's joyless, but because it's such a lot of hard work.*

(*Don't freak out and start questioning my Lutheranism. I'm not referring to earning my salvation somehow, but just to the fact that anyone past babyhood in Christ is bound to get handed responsibilities, often very onerous ones. I'm glad he trusts me with these things, but sometimes I just want to whine. Oh dear--there goes my Lenten resolution [Big Grin]

)

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So if you are saying that you associate with being the elder son, is that a complaint against the Church or against the kingdom?

Kingdom.

quote:
If against the church then it can be pointed out the church is only like that in places. If against the kingdom then why choose such a church related example.

Because it's something that most people here will understand, as well as seeing it as a bad thing.

The church in my parable stands for the Kingdom. The clergy and Elders are God, to whom it's all about that one missing sheep and the other 99 can just be left alone and ignored until it's found. The 99 need the shepherd to be with them as well!

quote:
The parable I would choose is the parable of the vineyard. It is worth remembering that the labourers who work all day, are given a fair days wage. What robs them of their joy is the fact others who have not worked like them get the same amount. Or to be more precise they see salvation as something earned and feel cheated when others get it with out the hard work they have done.

Yes. But isn't that a fair way to feel? How many of them, knowing what would happen, would have worked all day? They've missed out on a whole day of doing what they like, and you expect them not to be pissed off?

For me it really isn't about the amount of work I've done making me more worthy. It's about the fact that all that work was pointless. I needn't have bothered. It's not about what others get, it's about my wasted time.

quote:
It is making the comparison that steals the joy not the fact the landowner gives the others more than they are due. It is about attitude, deep seated attitude. Please note I have worked this out simply because I had to for myself. These are hard lessons I have had to learn. I don't think it would have mattered what the owner paid the labourers the ones who worked all day would still have thought they deserved more than those who worked less.

Maybe they do.

I've always thought that was a pretty stupid parable to have told. Jesus is essentially saying "it doesn't matter if you don't worship God until your dying day, you'll still get the same salvation as everyone else". And yet people, knowing this, still do all that pointless work! I'll never figure it out...

quote:
The secret of joy is given us by the prophet Micah "walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). If you think that is easy, you simply have not tried. When we learn to live in relationship with God without behaving like jealous siblings "Is God loving X more than me?" then we begin to learn joy.

A more accurate question would be "is God loving me at all?"

Posted by sparkly_h (# 7997) on :

I find the OP and this whole discussion fascinating. The OP describes how I felt through most of my life. Where was this fabled 'life in abundance'? I sure as hell never saw it. In the end I gave up and walked away. It was without doubt, the best thing I ever did. The reason was made elegantly and succinctly by Janine...

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:

Does "So why isn't the Christian life a joy?" really mean "Why am I expected to forswear all the fun? Why, in the Christian life, are all these rigid expectations dumped on me, and where the heck do they come from?" --

Or, "When will my outlook, my joy and everything else, finally come from inside me, dependent upon how I relate to God, rather than from the externals?"

For old me, the first was true. I felt like I was constantly needing to meet an impossible standard. That narrow way was so narrow that I pretty much had to beat myself up to stay on it - otherwise where would I be?! Outside of the rules was a big world full of people having fun (and to be honest lots of Christians who I saw as 'less worthy' were there on the outside too) but I knew I was right and I was going to stick to it. That is until I got to the point where I realised that I was so miserable nothing, nothing at all - including stepping outside of my rules - could make things worse.

And....

nothing happened. The world did not fall apart. I just stopped going to church, stopped trying to live life on a tightrope of rules and good behaviour. And things were better. Interestingly, I don't think my life actually changed much. Ok, my language got a bit 'worse' and I got extremely drunk a few times. But the fundamentals of my life were the same.

And slowly I began to think about why I behaved certain ways. Why did I think certain things, and treat people like I did? Without all the rules and pressure to have the right answer, those were interesting things to think about. Not having to be perfect, not inserting the answer my housegroup would give in a discussion to every question made thinking for myself possible.

And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a pretty rubbish Christian by my own old standards and by a lot of other people's too. But life does seem a bit more abundant even if it's much scarier a lot of the time.

That's a lot of personal revelations for a lurker, so I'll stop there. I just thought it might be helpful to talk about my experience so that people (and I'll bet there are loads) who feel like the OPer, know that they may not always feel like that.

H.x

[Crossposted with Marvin]

[ 04. March 2009, 11:57: Message edited by: sparkly_h ]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

(Is a lurker who has been to at least one shipmeet still a lurker?)

Welcome to the great Anglican secret, sparkly_H - you've found it at last! That's why Anglicans are so often criticised by terribly correct Christians as the liberality often makes them feel threatened.

In most Anglican churches (although there are a few....) you won't be told how to behave, but it will be expected that you will have the maturity to work that out for yourselves.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sparkly_h:
And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.

Spot on, IMHO [Overused]

Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:

quote:
Originally posted by sparkly_h:
And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.
Spot on, IMHO

Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.

When I went to church, there were parts of the service I really disagreed with, but I actually felt bad just for *thinking* about speaking up.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
A more accurate question would be "is God loving me at all?"

And I'm gonna repeat, while others might insist that only a selfish, underdeveloped, unenlightened backslider would feel this way, that many of the people held up in Scripture as God's Best Friends articulated such thoughts.

David, anyone? Moses? Mary of Bethany?

Maybe it centers around the weirdness of "loving God" and all our human associations with that. All but the very luckiest of us (who should shut up) have been in positions when they loved someone-- be it a parent, spouse, sibling, congregation-- and that love was just not returned. Or even actively rejected, as if it was a burden rather than a gift. So it is very human to wonder if your love has been returned-- and in the case of God, there is just no concrete way to asses that.

Unless you are lucky enough to get swooping feelings of presence. Bring it on, Lord, I say.

And I don't have the answer to that one.

What I have observed about myself (therefore Everybody's MMV) is that when I view God as a parent, I get in big trouble-- because both my parents really beat down any idea I might develop of my intrinsic worth. When I look at God as a great teacher, I do better-- not just because I have had some great teachers, but because I am one. And I can verify that is is possible to love the unruly, problematic child, the quiet, introverted child, and the cheery, problem-solving child equally-- or maybe a better word is , uniquely. One loves them because they are burgeoning little people, and you are privileged enough to be part of their growth, to have a balcony seat on the process.

You love them, because even if only in a small way, they are yours. You know them. Knowing them makes it worth even knowing their faults.

How much more interested and invested must God be, having created those people God is watching?

I can look at you, Marv, and say "Of course God loves him, why wouldn't God?" (and I mean that.)I have a harder time aiming that at myself. And it's my belief that God left us the job of helping each other out with that.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

[Tangent]

quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.

I wasn't vocal, but I once very publicly got up and walked out of a Communion service. I was living in a rural parish and we were just in the middle of a foot-and-mouth scare. The farming family affected were Methodists. Anyway, the vicar, who was sectioned under the mental Health Act not long afterwards, said in the sermon that, if it did prove to be foot-and-mouth, it was obviously God visiting judgement on the greedy farmers.

People asked me later why I'd walked out - most of them just switched off when the guy got up to speak and so hadn't actually heard what he was saying. The foot-and-mouth scare came to nothing.[/Tangent]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

If you want the gospel answer. Then the answer is you are being paid a talent not a shekel for the whole day but appear to be complaining because God gives other people a talent for only working an hour.

Jengie

Posted by Paul M (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.

Yes but probably not the way you're thinking of.

In one case someone got up to argue a point of doctrine, got into a brief exchange and then left angrily. I wasn't there but was told about it in the context of someone saying it would be a good idea to have more of a discussion time rather than a sermon sometimes.

The other time I remember a friend of mine objecting to a visiting preacher repeatedly using the word "pansy" to describe gay people. On being challenge the preacher, once he realised what was being said (my friend was too upset to be very coherent) claimed that it was (to him) a value-neutral description rather than a perjorative. He said it was common amongst people of his generation (he was 50-ish and this was 10-15 years ago). He said he didn't mean offence and would avoid using the word in future. Some of this he said to my friend after the service. He went to find him, apologise and explain.

I was actually standing next to my friend when he did this and whilst I found it hard to believe anyone was so naive as to think you could use that word without a boat-load of associations, many negative, his desire to apologise and not give offence in future seemed sincere.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
If you want the gospel answer. Then the answer is you are being paid a talent not a shekel for the whole day but appear to be complaining because God gives other people a talent for only working an hour.

Jengie

Just to add, I don't mean the "gospel" as in gospel truth, but in the gospel=good news sense or as culled from the New Testament. It's a tough message but when we start to think we deserve to part of the Kingdom, then there is something deeper wrong than just being unfairly treated. In fact we (and I am talking to myself as much as anyone here) are in danger of loosing our faith altogether and it has already become distorted.

I always have a lot of time for Pharisees, they really believed in the kingdom. They worked darn hard to bring it about. They really believed that if just everyone could be as strict as they were over religious observance then the kingdom would arrive. In many ways they are closer to the kingdom than I am at times. They did not think they could earn a place only that by being good they helped to bring it about. Rights in the end are not part of Christianity.

May I suggest a book Marvin, try Dangerous Wonder because what you need to get hold of right now is how marvellous Grace is and maybe wonder is the secret behind that.

Jengie

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.

When I went to church, there were parts of the service I really disagreed with, but I actually felt bad just for *thinking* about speaking up. [/QB]

My father did it once when I was about six - I remember it very distinctly. The preacher was, actually, completely out of order and was discussing the personal life of one of the congregants from the pulpit. My father stood up and said - 'I didn't bring my family here to listen to this kind of thing!', and we were told to get out and not come back. So we did, and no real loss as far as I can see. I did it myself about 10 years ago - stood up while someone was speaking and asked him to clarify himself on a certain point (I knew him well, and was fairly sure he was NOT saying what it sounded like he was saying, but I was uncomfortable about what other listeners might be making of it).

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

One of the formative experiences my wife had as a child occurred during a funeral at an "old-fashioned" rural Baptist church about 50 years ago. The deceased was an elderly farm widow, who had been a member of that church forever. The preacher got into the altar-call sermon, saying that even the lady in question was probably not saved, since she hadn't done...whatever it was that the preacher didn't like.

One of the pall-bearers, front row, got up, laid his grey gloves on the casket and walked out of the church, never to return (and making sure his kids didn't either), a monumental shock in that era.

Posted by Serra_Angel (# 5368) on :

I think it is interesting that this discussion may have started defining joy as "happiness," but now it seems to be associating it with "having fun." I don't think either one is a good definition. I know there are churches that throw a wet blanket on fun (and I am glad I am not a member of one), but they won't argue against joy. One almost wishes they would...

I like to think a Christian life is full of fun, though not necessarily happiness (no one of any religion or no religion can escape grief), and full of joy. And some of the restrictions which world culture claims will cramp your style, it seems to me, if followed actually add to pleasure and fun (and possibly joy.) And I don't like being such a part of world/mainstream culture that I take primary pleasure in what it labels AS pleasure. My two cents worth...

Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Jesus is essentially saying "it doesn't matter if you don't worship God until your dying day, you'll still get the same salvation as everyone else". And yet people, knowing this, still do all that pointless work! I'll never figure it out...

Stop doing it then.

Seriously. It might work out for the best, like in sparkly_h's case.

Posted by Geneviève (# 9098) on :

I did mention both fun and joy in my post. That was because ISTM that or the OP'er and maybe others, Christian life was nothing but grimness, dullness, and work, with all play taken away as well.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
I've always thought that was a pretty stupid parable to have told. Jesus is essentially saying "it doesn't matter if you don't worship God until your dying day, you'll still get the same salvation as everyone else". And yet people, knowing this, still do all that pointless work! I'll never figure it out...

This is where I got sort of shocked. Not at calling it stupid, I can cope with that. But poor Marvin! Is that how you're seeing Christianity, as pointless work???? Or work at all, for that matter???

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic. I had some episodes of creeping legalism in my past, and each time I felt like jumping off a bridge. Except I probably wouldn't manage to do it in the approved manner...

I think that when we push this parable to meaning "work for salvation," we've pushed so far off the point that the analogy breaks down. The emphasis wasn't earning the denarius--or maybe I should say, the emphasis was on NOT earning the denarius. Obviously the landowner is giving it away. The employer is batshit insane and handing out his dinero to any fool who cares to get in line and take it, on the flimsiest of excuses--or none at all. The connection between work and reward has been completely removed.

That, I think, is what pisses off the first set of workers. They thought they were earning their pay. Now they realize that they were working for nothing--the handout at the end of the day is free to everybody, regardless of work. In essence, they were working for love. Or... not.

That to me is what Christianity is all about. You couldn't PAY me to do some of the things Christ has asked of me. But it's not about payment, is it? The man is out of his head and giving salvation away for free. So anything I do right now, before quitting time comes, is either a waste of time... or done for love.

All in how you look at it.

Posted by Serra_Angel (# 5368) on :

Regarding fun and joy: sorry, Genevieve. Hope you didn't think I was picking on you...

Lamb Chopped! I don't think I have ever heard anyone describe that parable or Christian service with more clarity... I now understand it in ways I never did. TY TY TY [Overused]

Posted by stagflation (# 14061) on :

regarding finding happiness/joy in christianity i find the biggest obstacle to be other christians. i hasten to add not because of any special quality of holiness or otherwise on my part. simply that christianity to me seems to demand communion with other believers as part of its essentail nature. this is hard full stop. sharing your life with others is difficult and sometimes painful but conversly this has to be gone through to receive joy. it is not possible to truely know joy without experiencing sorrow. in churches i have attended my fallen humanity combined with the fallen humanity of others has made finding joy within the particular congregation difficult. currently i am not attending any one church and am trying to work out how to do so honestly to make communion possible. plus a lot of christians make me wish there was no God so i could be an atheist and not have to associate with them.

Posted by glockenspiel (# 13645) on :

Re: finding joy with others/being challesnged by others ... yes, nine times of out of ten, one is projecting one's own anxieties/misapprehensions/darknesses/failings onto the other person ....BUT ... this is nine times out of ten ~ there is also a one time out of ten, where it really is nothing to do with you; and the other person is just being an arsehole.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Serra_Angel, I'm glad if it helped. But what cracked me up was hitting post and realizing I'd called God "batshit insane." [Two face]

Ah well. he knows what I mean.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Other Christians--oh yeah. In fact, call it other humans and call it a day. We have a saying in our house about ministry being so wonderful if it weren't for all the people.

I used to have a rock tumbler when I was a kid--you put the jaggedy rocks in, added water, and left them to tumble over and over each other for a couple months. When you got back, they were lovely and smooth.

I'm afraid the church is a lot like that.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Liked your take on the parable, too, LC. Gleaned a message in there somewhere about figuring out what it is you love, and being true to that.

RE: other people-- going back to the Prodigal Son, I suddenly got this image of the three principles trying to work things out with the rest of the party guest providing background commentary a la the jerry Springer show. [Big Grin]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This is where I got sort of shocked. Not at calling it stupid, I can cope with that. But poor Marvin! Is that how you're seeing Christianity, as pointless work???? Or work at all, for that matter???

Well, if there's no need to do any of it - if, as you say, the owner is just giving the dinero away - why bother doing anything other than collecting your share? There's nothing extra to be gained by it, so unless it is worth doing purely in and of itself - unless it causes you joy in some way - it's pointless.

And that's the question in the title of this thread. Why isn't the Christian life a joy?

quote:
That to me is what Christianity is all about. You couldn't PAY me to do some of the things Christ has asked of me. But it's not about payment, is it? The man is out of his head and giving salvation away for free. So anything I do right now, before quitting time comes, is either a waste of time... or done for love.

There's probably only about a dozen people in this world who I love enough that I'll do random shit for them, shit that (as you say) other people couldn't pay me to do.

Posted by Nia (# 14193) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sparkly_h:
For old me, the first was true. I felt like I was constantly needing to meet an impossible standard. That narrow way was so narrow that I pretty much had to beat myself up to stay on it - otherwise where would I be?! Outside of the rules was a big world full of people having fun (and to be honest lots of Christians who I saw as 'less worthy' were there on the outside too) but I knew I was right and I was going to stick to it. That is until I got to the point where I realised that I was so miserable nothing, nothing at all - including stepping outside of my rules - could make things worse.

And....

nothing happened. The world did not fall apart. I just stopped going to church, stopped trying to live life on a tightrope of rules and good behaviour. And things were better. Interestingly, I don't think my life actually changed much. Ok, my language got a bit 'worse' and I got extremely drunk a few times. But the fundamentals of my life were the same.

And slowly I began to think about why I behaved certain ways. Why did I think certain things, and treat people like I did? Without all the rules and pressure to have the right answer, those were interesting things to think about. Not having to be perfect, not inserting the answer my housegroup would give in a discussion to every question made thinking for myself possible.

And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a pretty rubbish Christian by my own old standards and by a lot of other people's too. But life does seem a bit more abundant even if it's much scarier a lot of the time.

I've just read this whole thread (yes, I'm sad) and Sparkly_h's reply appears very pertinant. It seems to me Marvin that you have been oppressed by religion. I do not get any sense of the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life nor any sense of a living vibrant faith. Religion without relationship is just a dead, oppressive philosophy. This kind of Christianity terrifies me. I recently attended an evangelical church service where young university students had returned to report on what it was like to live as a Christian in a secular, youth culture. I had my 15 year old daughter with me. What a joyless, miserable and confused lot they were. They were like rabbits in headlights - overwhelmed by the complexity of the culture they had entered and with only one answer to it: 'thou shalt not...'

Is this the only thing that Christianity has to offer young people? My daughter looked at me - these people were really SAD. She was going nowhere near the Christian Union when she got to university.

Marvin, you've been sold short. But I guess its difficult to change your life at 30. If I could I would follow sparkly_h's example. Live your life and enjoy it (if you can) and let God find you - He will. Be the younger brother; rebel and do all you've wanted to; park the guilt (if you can), shout out the anger and enjoy life. If God is there he will leave His other sheep and go search for you. And He will rejoice when one day he finds you and brings you back into the fold - and you will come willingly and joyfully. Only this time, you will come along laughing and in conversation with Christ.

I don't know what brand of Christianity you follow but I love Brian McLaren's A New Kind of Christian - he's full of joy. Marcus Borg is interesting and liberating too.

Good luck and God bless.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

If Christianity is all about us becoming more Christlike, then perhaps that doesn't mean being filled with more and more joy. Perhaps it means being with people in their suffering.

Not very popular, I know, but perhaps a necessary task.

I remember when I found it very tiresome to be surrounded by Christians who were trying very hard to be happy, happy, joyful all the time - and also in complete denial over the unhappiness and suffering they were causing to others in the church.

Surely being fully Christian (and fully human) is to experience the right emotion at the appropriate time, not to be always full of joy, regardless.

Posted by Serra_Angel (# 5368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If Christianity is all about us becoming more Christlike, then perhaps that doesn't mean being filled with more and more joy. Perhaps it means being with people in their suffering.

Not very popular, I know, but perhaps a necessary task.

I remember when I found it very tiresome to be surrounded by Christians who were trying very hard to be happy, happy, joyful all the time - and also in complete denial over the unhappiness and suffering they were causing to others in the church.

Surely being fully Christian (and fully human) is to experience the right emotion at the appropriate time, not to be always full of joy, regardless.

Trying to be full of "happy happy" joy all the time, in my opinion, is like praying without ceasing by never stopping talking to God (at the expense of talking to others...) I think joy and suffering go hand in hand; if one is happy, one remembers joy and can look to see if one can help others who maybe are not happy or need help. If one is suffering, one takes comfort in the belief that Christ and God know what suffering is and look for a reason for joy within it. This is a nascent, or baby, idea so I may not yet be putting it very well.

I am, however, better at giving an example of praying without ceasing. I have a family member who is a musician and I think someone asked her how she could perform and pray without ceasing simultaneously. She responded that she prayed immediately before walking out on stage and prayed that the music she made and the concentration she gave to her music would be accepted as continuing prayer. Then she went out and did her best. I expect the concept of combining true, Christianity-based joy and suffering are something similar. Perhaps someday I will have a good example of that too.

And I agree that other Christians, and more, people in general, make happiness, if not joy, difficult. I too have met my share of miserable Christians...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This is where I got sort of shocked. Not at calling it stupid, I can cope with that. But poor Marvin! Is that how you're seeing Christianity, as pointless work???? Or work at all, for that matter???
Well, if there's no need to do any of it - if, as you say, the owner is just giving the dinero away - why bother doing anything other than collecting your share? There's nothing extra to be gained by it, so unless it is worth doing purely in and of itself - unless it causes you joy in some way - it's pointless.

And that's the question in the title of this thread. Why isn't the Christian life a joy?

quote:
That to me is what Christianity is all about. You couldn't PAY me to do some of the things Christ has asked of me. But it's not about payment, is it? The man is out of his head and giving salvation away for free. So anything I do right now, before quitting time comes, is either a waste of time... or done for love.
There's probably only about a dozen people in this world who I love enough that I'll do random shit for them, shit that (as you say) other people couldn't pay me to do.

Um, that's what I was trying to say. In and of itself the shit I do is not joy-inducing--quite the opposite, in fact. Paul never spoke a truer word than when he said "If this is all we have, we are of all men most miserable."

The Christian life in and of itself can be sheer hell--drudgery, terror, disgust or any combination of the above. But in my experience what makes the difference is who I'm doing it for--and as you say, there are only about a dozen people in this world I'll do it for, for love. But there is Christ, then. And now I'm going to be very un-Lutheran and un-Germanic and make a fool of myself on the Internet.

(Damn, how do I start?)

I love him. He's the only one who never let me down, never lied to me, never betrayed me. He was there when I was a teenager going through my parents' divorce. He was there when I was suicidal. He was there when I did all kinds of dumb shit from day one till now, and he never treated me like everyone else, even my own mother, treated me (and like I deserved). He was there when I almost lost my life and my family. Even when he disciplines me, it's a hell of a lot kinder than love notes from most the people I know. And he never does that without cause.

He knows all the most embarrassing things about me, and still loves me. He takes pleasure in me--and isn't that a fucking wonder? He watches me screw up time and again and again and it doesn't change a thing in his attitude toward me. He's the only person I can truly let down my guard with, and not be afraid he'll walk away. He won't. He's had thirty years to prove it.

He doesn't put me on guilt trips. He doesn't remind me of all I owe him and then get after me about my obligations. He's interested in my life, which is more than I can say of all but my closest friend. He doesn't make me feel like an idiot when I'm thrilled about some minor success, or happy about some tiny little thing. He's happy for me and with me.

He doesn't just take care of my needs (though that's very important) but he once in a while adds something about my wants--things that are totally frivolous and I'm more than half-embarrassed to pray about them. (Given his track record, I should do more asking.)

He's patient with me, and he doesn't roll his eyes.

How could I NOT love someone like that? To the point of sheer idiocy. If he asks me to jump, I'll do it. If he asks me to bark like a dog, I'll do it. (Thank God he doesn't do that--how embarrassing.) More to the point, if he asks me to suffer, I'll do it.

He made it very clear long ago. If I was willing, he would give me (like any other Christian) a share of his work in the world, meeting the needs of lost and dying people. And he made it very clear that this would involve suffering. Quite a bit of it.

I'm just as chicken as anyone else. I didn't say "Yes" to him, I don't have the guts. I screwed up my eyes, hid my head under the blankets, and said, "You pick for me, Lord."

And so I have the life I have, and there's been a hell of a lot of crap in it. But I also have him. And I'm still an idiot in love with him, and I will still jump if he says so. I like making him happy. It makes me happy when he's happy. [Axe murder]

Darn you, Marvin, for making me say all this. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :

LC, that was beautiful, thank you (it might also have given me the prompt i needed to do something, so thank you twice)

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

And now for something completely different.

The OP asks, "So why isn't the Christian life a joy?" So whose life is a freaking Bollywood musical number? Seriously, what do you expect?

It's not all misery and it's not all joy. On balance, it's pretty good. I even did some math on this. [Help]

Assuming Jesus lived thirty-three years, and hung on the cross for about six hours, that works out to about 0.00002076124 percent of his life spent in sheer agony. Now add to that the times when he was rebuking, angry, exhausted, etc. and maybe you get to 10 percent of his life sucking to various degrees. That leaves 90 percent of his life spent, you know, just doing stuff -- thumping around Galilee and Judea -- or spent in happiness, up to sheer joyful bliss. I'd take a 90 percent normal-to-joyful life.

ISTM incidents in which Jesus seems completely delighted (Peter's confession, for example) seem to occur no more or no less than in anybody's life. So if that's how it was for Our Founder, why should it be so different for you? (I'm even leaving out the eternal joy of the resurrection, because that would really skew my numbers.)

Now of course I realize that the Gospels do not form a complete record of all of Jesus' earthly hours... but I thought it might make for an interesting parable.

Posted by Squibs (# 14408) on :

Excellent stuff, LC.

Posted by Nia (# 14193) on :

I read Marvin as saying that Christianity was a source of misery in his life. No-one is saying that 'Life' is going to be great if you are a Christian (as if!) but rather one's faith should be one source of support, challenge and comfort. One's faith should not be a constant source of additional misery in life. Lamb Chopped said it all - kudos to you LC for having the courage [Biased]

- whatever the events in one's life, Christ is there to help you navigate them. Christ is a source of happiness - sometimes quiet, sometimes loud, sometimes challenging (gulp) but a source of comfort nonetheless.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

When people start going on about how the Christian life isn't a joy, I wonder if it is actually something else in their lives which is currently making them miserable and that instead of dealing with that they are projecting those feelings onto Christianity and blaming God for them.

Thank you, that will be 5 cents, please.

Posted by Ticachick (# 14263) on :

quote:
Live your life and enjoy it (if you can) and let God find you - He will. Be the younger brother; rebel and do all you've wanted to; park the guilt (if you can), shout out the anger and enjoy life. If God is there he will leave His other sheep and go search for you. And He will rejoice when one day he finds you and brings you back into the fold - and you will come willingly and joyfully. Only this time, you will come along laughing and in conversation with Christ. [/QB]

That's what I want from Christ and never seem to quite find it at church. [Frown]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And now I'm going to be very un-Lutheran and un-Germanic and make a fool of myself on the Internet.

[snip]

Darn you, Marvin, for making me say all this.

Sorry.

All I could think when reading what you wrote was "that must be nice". I've never had that, or felt that, or even really believed that.

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When people start going on about how the Christian life isn't a joy, I wonder if it is actually something else in their lives which is currently making them miserable

Maybe. It's been a rough few months.

Posted by Teacher Cath (# 14625) on :

I can feel a degree of sympathy for Marvin - but in my experience its not my faith in Jesus that is the miserable bit - but, frankly, other Christians. I sometimes want to shake people at church - why is it so hard to smile? If my friends are unhappy, though, of course I'm unhappy too - but that would be the same Christian or not. Life can be a bit poo sometimes - thats just 'Life.'

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Gosh, Marvin, I'm so sorry.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
All I could think when reading what [Lamb Chopped] wrote was "that must be nice". I've never had that, or felt that, or even really believed that.

I guess I might have written something along those lines a long time ago. In a sense I suppose it could still be nice to drop into that kind perspective, imagining God as a projection of some idealised fantasy.

But I could never rely on it now. There's no evidence for, and a whole universe that would say 'what are you on about?'. Maybe its just me getting old, but I find an occasionally person-like relationship with the God who is in reality creating the world much more satisfying than anything I recall from back then.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

It must be hard being a Martian when everyone around you is an Earthling.

Purgatorial prayers. [Votive]

(and advice that if you think you are depressed, get thee to a physician)

Meanwhile, the crappiest piece of advice I've ever seen was on a church banner:

If you put:
Jesus first
Others second
Yourself last,
you get JOY.

Is there anyone on this planet - or for that matter on Mars - who has ever tried this and found it works?!

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Please tell me life isn't this bad.....

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Dave m'dear, thanks for the kind words [Roll Eyes]

. It might interest you to know that I am a typical stiff upper lip, buttoned up Lutheran of the Germanic type who barely nod to each other at the Peace--not a pentybaptistchariswhatsit, and certainly not prone to wish fulfillment fantasies. Fear fulfillment fantasies are more my style.

I really can't help it if this is the way the Lord chose to deal with me. But there's no reason why he should deal with everyone in the same way, is there?

[ 11. March 2009, 01:41: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Gosh, Marvin, I'm so sorry.

Same here. I had a feeling something was unusually not ok.

I guess that's part of what was getting my hackles up on this thread-- when somebody starts saying," What is the use of living a Christian life" I am by default less interested in whether they are right about the matter, and more interested in what might be making them look at things that way.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I really can't help it if this is the way the Lord chose to deal with me.

More the way you choose to deal with God, I think. And of course we all have to work that out for ourselves.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Wonderful recounting of your experience, LC, and I'm glad you have that.

But lots of Christians never have anything like that. I think some of it is due to biochemistry, wiring, socialization, past experiences, etc. A person can be totally commited to Christ and never feel what you have felt. Some people feel it periodically, or maybe once in their lives. And sometimes, as Dave said, it's a matter of how you choose to relate to God.

Not particularly pointing at you, LC. Just at the underlying assumptions that you and several others seem to have expressed here.

A person's faith can't be accurately judged by how or whether they experience God.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

Sometimes, when Christians get depressed they might find it worth their while talking to a doctor instead of assuming it's a faith problem. I'm not suggesting "a pill for every ill", but pills do have their place, as does counselling, therapy etc.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Yes, depression absolutely can affect your faith and your perception of God. You can even be suicidal about faith issures. (Been there.) Therapy and meds may help.

But even among people without chemical glitches, feeling the presence of God isn't guaranteed.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Meanwhile, the crappiest piece of advice I've ever seen was on a church banner:

If you put:
Jesus first
Others second
Yourself last,
you get JOY.

Is there anyone on this planet - or for that matter on Mars - who has ever tried this and found it works?!

Tried it. One of the main problems is that you never run out of 'others'. (Vicarage kid talking!)

Remember that quote about the woman who lives for others - you can tell the others by the haunted expressions on their faces?

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

GK - Agreed. And His presence is not always an unalloyed pleasure. I mean, full-on presence, yes, but that still, small voice isn't such a joy - especially when He's taking the piss.

[edited to clarify that response was to GK.]

We had an RE teacher who used to tell us that JOY algorithm - usually just before picking his ear and examining the contents. He lasted about three weeks - and we were nicely brought-up girls.

[ 11. March 2009, 08:15: Message edited by: Qlib ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

(defensively ((hey, it's 6:30 in the blessed a.m.)): I DID point out that God doesn't deal with everyone the same way. It was the patronizing tone of "I grew out of it" that got on my nerves. (/end foolish defensiveness)

Have to agree with Qlib about the (non) pleasure of that still, small voice sometimes. I got, um, busted a couple weeks ago when he got fed up with some majorly loveless behavior on my part. Ouch.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
(and advice that if you think you are depressed, get thee to a physician)

I'm not. Honest. There are plenty of things in my life that give me a certain amount of joy - cricket on the lawn, playing my guitars, watching the trains go by on a warm afternoon, the spark in my fiance's eye when she looks at me, and so on.

But it struck me that none of them are particularly related to being Christian, and furthermore it struck me that if I was ever seeking to find joy they would be the places I would go to, and not to (any) church. Nor even to God.

I wondered why that would be so. Surely if God loves us, and sends his Holy Spirit to dwell within us, we should feel something, on at least a reasonably regular basis. Why don't we?

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :

I'm reading philip yancey's book, disappointment with God at the moment. I'm finding it really helpful in this respect. If you look at the old testament, and the way the israelites behaves when it was indisputable that there was a God, maybe you find clues as to why things are the way they are now. It doesn't solve anything, but it gives us a hint. Maybe when I have finished the book, I'll be able to explain more clearly, but it is a very good book, so I'd recommend you get hold of a copy.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

I shall do that - I know someone who has a copy I can borrow.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There are plenty of things in my life that give me a certain amount of joy - cricket on the lawn, playing my guitars, watching the trains go by on a warm afternoon, the spark in my fiance's eye when she looks at me, and so on.

But it struck me that none of them are particularly related to being Christian, and furthermore it struck me that if I was ever seeking to find joy they would be the places I would go to, and not to (any) church. Nor even to God.

And there was me just thinking that was normal. [Ultra confused]

Perhaps you've been brought up in a place which had too many expectations of Christianity.

The only difference is that I love singing in the choir - that gives me joy, and it is also something I can do in church as well.

Does playing your guitar give you joy in church as well as when you play it somewhere else? And if not, is there some way you could adjust your playing, or the situations in which you play, to make it so. It may not sound much, but perhaps it is a good place to start.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

Well, I wouldn't go to a church or a meeting house to find Joy, but then I wouldn't go those places to find God, either. He doesn't live there.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

If you believe in a panentheistic approach to God then he is already in and through all the things you find joyful, not someplace else you have to go and find him.

Is that what you mean, Qlib?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Does playing your guitar give you joy in church as well as when you play it somewhere else?

Well yes, but that's not in any way a product of the venue or the songs being played.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

How do you know? Maybe it's one of the ways in which God is reaching out to you with joy, along with the other things you mentioned. Why would God have to gift-wrap joy in a big box marked, "From the Church. To Christians only"?

[ 11. March 2009, 15:15: Message edited by: Leaf ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

It's come up in the "Deborah - Servant of God" thread as well now. Yerevan posted:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
It was sad how little joy she seemed to get out of her faith

It's this sort of quote that makes me want to scream. You mean there are people who get joy from their faith? Not from tertiary sources that are tangentially related to faith at best, but actually directly from their faith?

A lot of people on this thread seem to have been saying "that's not what faith does". Yet so many people say it is - Yerevan's quote is only one of the many, many places where faith and joy are shown as directly linked...

Posted by Myrrh (# 11483) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's come up in the "Deborah - Servant of God" thread as well now. Yerevan posted:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
It was sad how little joy she seemed to get out of her faith
It's this sort of quote that makes me want to scream. You mean there are people who get joy from their faith? Not from tertiary sources that are tangentially related to faith at best, but actually directly from their faith?

A lot of people on this thread seem to have been saying "that's not what faith does". Yet so many people say it is - Yerevan's quote is only one of the many, many places where faith and joy are shown as directly linked...

I think the real confusion here is in equating Christian joy for physical enjoyment. The martyrs were overflowing with Christian joy, regardless of the intense suffering they were going through. This is a spiritual state, not a the experience of pleasant things. Not that experiencing pleasant things isn't Christian.

My mother's only warning to me about this was when I was young and noting my reaction to something she said; to be in control of it, she said don't laugh too much or you'll cry..

The only other religion that really deals with this is Hinduism, where Brahman, (the Absolute sort of) is eternal Existence, Consciousness, Bliss.

Myrrh

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There are plenty of things in my life that give me a certain amount of joy - cricket on the lawn, playing my guitars, watching the trains go by on a warm afternoon, the spark in my fiance's eye when she looks at me, and so on.

But it struck me that none of them are particularly related to being Christian, and furthermore it struck me that if I was ever seeking to find joy they would be the places I would go to, and not to (any) church. Nor even to God.
And there was me just thinking that was normal.
Perhaps you've been brought up in a place which had too many expectations of Christianity.

Hmmm.. or (perhaps as a side effect) too many expectations of Christians?

I think it's two sides of the same coin-- if you preach that Christianity will solve all your problems and make you happy all the time, and if one of the bretheren is unhappy or has a problem, well, We Know Where the Problem Lies.

[ 11. March 2009, 18:03: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's come up in the "Deborah - Servant of God" thread as well now. Yerevan posted:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
It was sad how little joy she seemed to get out of her faith
It's this sort of quote that makes me want to scream. You mean there are people who get joy from their faith? Not from tertiary sources that are tangentially related to faith at best, but actually directly from their faith?

A lot of people on this thread seem to have been saying "that's not what faith does". Yet so many people say it is - Yerevan's quote is only one of the many, many places where faith and joy are shown as directly linked...

Well, I think it is what faith does. It's not the only thing faith does, but ideally, yes, worshipping God should be in and of itself a positive thing in one's life, as well as enhancing all the other positive things such as you describe in your other post.

Of course there could be a million reasons why your situation is not the ideal, and one would hope most of them would be temporary. But I would say unequivocally (have I got that spelled right?) yes, for a lot of people faith is in and of itself a source of peace, contentment, and joy.

I'm sorry that hasn't been your experience. I mean that sincerely, because I do feel sincerely bad for those who don't find their faith joyful. But as I said earlier, I don't think this inherently says anything more about the nature of the faith than the fact that some people find it quite easy and natural to be loving and kind to others, while selfish people like me struggle with it all the time. Love, joy, and kindness are all fruits of the Spirit, and some of us are just fruitier in some areas than others. There's always room for growth.

Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You mean there are people who get joy from their faith? Not from tertiary sources that are tangentially related to faith at best, but actually directly from their faith?

Nah. Most of the time we're not at all aware of where this kind if experience comes from. Joy probably relies on the coinciding of several inputs, of which faith might be one, in a context conducive to us feeling something that fits the description.

Faith has to be about what we believe to be true. However that makes us feel.

Posted by Jon G (# 4704) on :

I've only been keeping half an eye on this thread so apologies if this has already been posted.

It's been a long time since I've read Suprised by Joy by C.S.Lewis, unlike many Christians I'm not a real fan of his work (I hate Narnia!!).
At the time I was reading this sort of biography/apologia, I was very much on the margins of Christianity and there was a lot in it which resonated with me - his honesty about where joy could be found, not always in places some Christians approve of. And also his description of joy as a kind of longing, which seems more appropriate than other more immediate descriptions.

For me Joy is the action of the Holy Spirit, and from some of your posts it seems clear to me Marvin there's alot of joy in your life.

Christian worship should reflect, connect and celebrate the work of the Holy Spirit (and therefore joy) in our lives and communities. It's about recognising, and giving thanks to the origin of joy rather than generating it.

I have experienced joy in worship and in my life as a Christian. But most of all I've been able to say 'Thank you' and that for me matters more.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If you believe in a panentheistic approach to God then he is already in and through all the things you find joyful, not someplace else you have to go and find him. Is that what you mean, Qlib?

Well, sort of. Though of course, that would mean you could find God anywhere, even in a church or meeting house. [Razz]

If I was looking for a sense of God, I would probably walk up a hill, or by the sea, or by a stream or something. But, as any good Zen teacher will tell you, "chasing teh high" is not what it's about.

I actually think that you find Him best when you encounter another person in depth. As the Namasté prayer has it: the divine light in me honors the divine light in you.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Well if you get really desperate you ould always go to a Monastery. The Church Times quotes Thomas Merton, who says 'The monastery is a school in which we learn from God how to be happy'.

The fiancee might not be too filled with joy at the thought however.... [Biased]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I have just remembered an extraordinary experience I had at the Cathedral yesterday. An old lady hobbled painfully out of her seat at the end of evensong, relying heavily on her stick and on the steadying effect of holding on to the choir stalls. She obviously found it very uncomfortable and difficult to make progress. And yet, as she made eye contact with each of the still-seated worshippers in turn, a huge beaming smile lit up her face. And the people with whom she made eye contact (myself included) couldn't help but smile back, it was so catching.

Perhaps, despite all our problems in life, we are meant to be joy givers, just like that lovely old lady.

Posted by Nia (# 14193) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Wonderful recounting of your experience, LC, and I'm glad you have that.

But lots of Christians never have anything like that. I think some of it is due to biochemistry, wiring, socialization, past experiences, etc. A person can be totally commited to Christ and never feel what you have felt. Some people feel it periodically, or maybe once in their lives. And sometimes, as Dave said, it's a matter of how you choose to relate to God.

My husband had a sudden conversion experience. From then on, he lived with a sense of God being truly present in his life. He experienced no doubts and regularly experienced the pure joy of prayer. Funnily enough, I have many friends who have a similar experience of faith. It seems to me that God is alive inside them - they sort of 'shine' and regularly experience joy in their prayer and woraship. For 15 years I looked at them from afar with my purely 'head' faith - I couldn't feel anything at all. I put it down to the fact that I was a Myers Briggs 'T' and they were all 'F's. But over the 15 years I never stopped praying for what they had. And recently I had a similar experience of God's presence and joy - a long time coming but it was worth the wait. Philip Yancey was helpful during that long dry period, as was Brian McLaren's A New Kind Of Christian - which helped me gain a sense of joy from my intellectual Myers Briggs 'NT' vs 'NS' faith.

But what helped most of all was at one stage giving up. I decided that I was not going to be a Christian any longer - it was thankless, hard work (!). As I lived in the world as a non-Christian (a sort of intellectual stance I adopted) I felt an overwhelming sense of anomie and meaninglessness. I didn't get any pleasure from living like this - in fact it filled me with depression, despite having lived like this for the first 30 years of my life. It made me realise that although I had a rather dry and joyless faith, that faith was sustaining me in a way that I was hardly conscious of.

I like the quote from Romans:

'Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.'

There is a self sacrificial element in this passage and yet there is the clear expectation of joy - a joy that comes from the hope of salvation, a joy that is rooted in faith.

It seems many on this thread are saying, that if you have a dry, even depressing faith, you should just accept it. I would suggest that we should expect joy and continue to pray for it until God answers our prayers. It is not naive to expect some elements of joy in our faith life, nor is it, as some suggest, merely associated with 'young' Christianity. My joy is associated with a freedom from worldly values, an ability to travel light, a rejection of the stupidity of striving for success, wealth, achievement, status and an ability to live in the moment and appreciate the simple things in life. All of this has grown out of my faith.

Maybe that is naive. But Christ told us that we had to become like children before we could enter the Kingdom. Children are full of joy, as well as sorrow. Most are also full of optimism -The Romans passage says joy comes from hope; its important not to resign oneself to an unsatisfying faith especially if, deep down, one knows one wants more.

sorry for long post [Hot and Hormonal]

[ 13. March 2009, 09:00: Message edited by: Nia ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

For what it's worth, I'm an INTJ. I've also had the very long dry spells. (Hearing about Mother Teresa's experiences of dryness was the thing that finally convinced me she was the genuine article.) [Biased]

Just wondering--is there some kind of correlation between huge amounts of suffering and the experience of joy? Because the people I know who seem to show this most are those who have been through hell, often on a regular basis.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's come up in the "Deborah - Servant of God" thread as well now. Yerevan posted:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
It was sad how little joy she seemed to get out of her faith
It's this sort of quote that makes me want to scream. You mean there are people who get joy from their faith? Not from tertiary sources that are tangentially related to faith at best, but actually directly from their faith?

I completely missed this as I wasn't following this thread but in answer to the question: yes, it has been known to happen. I've met them. Why is that such a terrible idea?

quote:
A lot of people on this thread seem to have been saying "that's not what faith does". Yet so many people say it is - Yerevan's quote is only one of the many, many places where faith and joy are shown as directly linked...

I'm not sure how saying that 'X doesn't get much joy from their faith' equals saying 'everyone who doesn't has poor faith' or whatever you're reading into it.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

The answer Marvin and it is not the one you expect is that "joy" is a profoundly theological term, it often paired with the german terminology Sehnsucht which means something like an intense longing. You might equally think of St Augustines comment:

quote:
Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.

Therefore it is the religious pilgrims parallel to falling in love, rather than to happiness or having a good time. I am not a writer fit enough to speak of it, but if you would find out more, go and look at C.S. Lewis' "Surprised by Joy" which was written before he met Joy Davidman.

We are not saying there isn't Joy in the Christian life but that what Joy is, is not what you think it is.

Jengie

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

Yes, but Joy is Joyous - and one of the things about it is that it is recognisable, even though it may not be like what you expected.

So, if someone doesn't feel "Joy", then the explanation can't be that they simply got the categorisation wrong.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

But it could be because they are looking for the wrong thing. If you are expecting to have a good time in return for hard work, you are looking for the wrong thing. The gospel almost goes out of its way to spell out that that is not what is promised. Its like trying to fall in love at the behest of your parents. You can love someone as a duty you cannot fall in love with someone as a duty. Sometimes you are able by loving someone fall in love with them, but there is no guarantee that will happen and the expectation that it will seems to reduce the chances that it will happen.

Joyous too means something more, it is the martyrs faith that is described as joyous. It makes the intolerable, tolerable. So I suppose it is a kin to happiness but not the same.

Jengie

[ 13. March 2009, 15:14: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

Posted by PrettyFly (# 13157) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Just wondering--is there some kind of correlation between huge amounts of suffering and the experience of joy? Because the people I know who seem to show this most are those who have been through hell, often on a regular basis.

This is actually something that bothers me from time to time. Because I too have seen time and again how people who have expereinced real pain, been right at the end of their rope, now have what seems to be the most faithful, passionate, "alive" relationship with God.

It kind of scares me to think that maybe you have to go thrugh something completely horrendous before you can really appreciate God's love and have that kind of relationship with him.

That said, I've often been told by people who have heard me talk about my past that I actually have been through a lot of pain and struggle, the kind that traumatises most people. But that because I'm generally a happy, hopeful, optimistic person I'm just not as aware of it as I might be and I bounce back. Maybe that's God. Maybe it's just me being kind of numb.

Reading your (Lamb Chopped) post describing your love for God was very moving (it actually did move me to tears), but I have to confess it left me feeling rather inadequate. Because I have had moments of passion, praise and thanksgiving and an overwhelming desire to serve Christ no matter what, but it's nowhere near as intense or long-lasting as you describe.

It left me wondering if there's something wrong with me that I just don't feel that way about God, like maybe I'm missing something or doing something wrong. Because I think I'm generally a loving and emotional person, so why don't I feel that way about God? Surely I should, surely it's bad that I don't, given all He has done and continues to do for me.

So I tried talking to Him about it later and was somewhat reassured by what I believe I heard back. Being, in essence, that while I am indeed emotional and loving I'm also the quiet type. I think more than I speak (usually!) and keep a lot to myself, so I shouldn't worry or be surprised if my relationship with God is equally quiet and unassuming. The fact that I'm not overflowing with joy and love and passion doesn't mean that I don't love Him or that my faith isn't real.

Crisis of faith averted [Biased]

[ 13. March 2009, 16:07: Message edited by: PrettyFly ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Something that I have found is that if you really are at the frazzle end, at that point and almost none other, if you are able to trust God, you are enabled to get through. However trusting God at that point is so different from doing it at any other. You truly seek "give us our daily bread" not "give us the bread we need to live on this week" in fact a day may be too long. Give us the bread/sustenance for this hour is more likely to be ones cry as looking further appears impossible.

Is it surprising that someone who has been hollowed to that extent and found God to be there, may have inklings of joy at other times as well.

Jengie

Posted by Squiggle (# 11308) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nia:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Wonderful recounting of your experience, LC, and I'm glad you have that.

But lots of Christians never have anything like that. I think some of it is due to biochemistry, wiring, socialization, past experiences, etc. A person can be totally commited to Christ and never feel what you have felt. Some people feel it periodically, or maybe once in their lives. And sometimes, as Dave said, it's a matter of how you choose to relate to God.
My husband had a sudden conversion experience. From then on, he lived with a sense of God being truly present in his life. He experienced no doubts and regularly experienced the pure joy of prayer. Funnily enough, I have many friends who have a similar experience of faith. It seems to me that God is alive inside them - they sort of 'shine' and regularly experience joy in their prayer and woraship. For 15 years I looked at them from afar with my purely 'head' faith - I couldn't feel anything at all. I put it down to the fact that I was a Myers Briggs 'T' and they were all 'F's. But over the 15 years I never stopped praying for what they had. And recently I had a similar experience of God's presence and joy - a long time coming but it was worth the wait. Philip Yancey was helpful during that long dry period, as was Brian McLaren's A New Kind Of Christian - which helped me gain a sense of joy from my intellectual Myers Briggs 'NT' vs 'NS' faith.

But what helped most of all was at one stage giving up. I decided that I was not going to be a Christian any longer - it was thankless, hard work (!). As I lived in the world as a non-Christian (a sort of intellectual stance I adopted) I felt an overwhelming sense of anomie and meaninglessness. I didn't get any pleasure from living like this - in fact it filled me with depression, despite having lived like this for the first 30 years of my life. It made me realise that although I had a rather dry and joyless faith, that faith was sustaining me in a way that I was hardly conscious of.

For me the process of "being a Christian" has run through an intellectual, analytical acceptance that it might all be true and *separately* (when I am a different person, suppose) an overwhelming sense of God's presence and supports - almost as if God is pleading with me to listen to Him and respond. No sudden conversion experiences (I wish!) - lots of intellectual slog and occasional moments of complete (emotional certainty). It took me years to fit these two together. Eventually my faith has helped me put these two halves of my personality together.

Is it always a joy? Mostly yes. When I feel weary or low, it isn't my faith that makes me miserable. I always believe God can get me out of the trough - but I can't always reach high enough. I'm the problem - not God.

~

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