Thread: Eccles: Dress the Minister Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
A funny tat incident happened in the small town where I currently live. The Roman Catholics got a new priest, young too. He has made a splash by wearing his cassock at all times. He's often seen at the Post Office in his cassock while checking the parish mailbox in the afternoon. Apparently the Catholics paid for a few cassocks for this priest to wear. This has gone over very well among both the Catholic community in town and everyone else too. It has been said that there hasn't been such a strong example of "being Catholic" around since the Grey Nuns left town.

Over at my shack across the river, the United Church minister has noted the sartorial elegance of the Catholic Priest and now wants a cassock of his own. The minister is not known for particularly high standards of clerical wear and in the past has expressed a desire to preach in a t-shirt after spending one Sunday with the Pentecostals (he was on vacation). In order to call his bluff I want to appeal to Eccles for advice on how to dress the Minister *properly*.


So, assembled Eccles members, the current competition is to dress the United Church of Canada Minister. We need a good street rig and a Sunday rig. The minister currently has a medium blue gown with a white stole which he wears at Communion and baptisms. He often preaches in something looking like clericals. The church has a set of liturgical-year stoles which match the paraments. They are currently unused.

For reference, Geneva Gowns and Albs are both acceptable wear among United Church of Canada clergy. We are a United Church of Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregationalist descent, so anything from the UMC, Methodist Church of Great Britain, the Church of Scotland, the United Reformed Church, Uniting Church of Australia, etc. is acceptable.

Elegance and decorum is to be emphasized, the more traditional the better. Scottish-style vented gowns are acceptable for the purpose of this exercise.

Have at it!

[ 29. September 2011, 07:34: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
A selection of kilts in liturgical colours?
 

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Posted by moveable_type (# 9673) on :
 
The street rig must involve gaiters.
 

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Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
My take at it (which reflects the overall weather in my neck of the woods; might not apply or be considered proper/classy dress in Canada):

Street wear

Dress trousers and clerical shirt; a jacket if weather so requires. I can do either tab or dog collar. Dog collars are rare and seen as a strictly Anglican affectation around here, though.

For hospital and parish visitation, suit and clericals, or at least jacket and clericals. That mini-stole applies for sacramental visiting.

Shirt should be in a discreet colour, black or white strongly preferred. Could get away with violet if one is Presbytery, Synod or GA Moderator, though.

For Sundays and all liturgical occasions

Black Geneva Robe. Black clerical shirt (either tab or dog collar). Stole matching Holy Table and Pulpit paraments.

During Summer months, high-collared alb, cincture and stole matching paraments. I am highly fond of this one.

For Weddings, Baptisms, Funerals, Presbytery/Synod/GA special services and all other dress-up occasions

Black Geneva robe (the one Murphy sells with the closed black velvet lining down the front); doctoral robe optional. Black clerical shirt with white bands. Dressier stole or tippet. Hood and respective head cover if applicable (not for me, though; different academic tradition etc.).


This is what I am going to wear, myself, once I get ordained. Too PCUSA-ish?

[ 23. February 2011, 22:17: Message edited by: Episcoterian ]
 

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Posted by ChippedChalice (# 14057) on :
 
How about a T-shirt which reads "Daur ye say Mass in my lug?"

with a picture of Jenny Geddes flinging a three-legged stool at someone's head?
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Birthday suits are highly traditional, all the way back to Adam's time.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
This is what you need. The purple color one-ups the Catholic priest in rank by stressing the built-in episcopal function of UCC clergy.

When that's in the wash, there's always this.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Episcoterian:

No, you're right in the ballpark. The UMC is a tad higher than the UCCan. Methodism gets higher the further south you. Texas Methodism* counts as Anglicanism up here.

MartinL:



He'd wear them too.

* UMC church in Texas advertising "Anglo-Catholic style Eucharist."
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Worship-wise I'd say (with my UK Methodist hat on): cassock*, gown, bands, hood, scarf for preaching services
alb and stole for the Eucharist, baptisms, weddings, funerals etc.

On the street, you can't go wrong with black clericals.

*I do personally prefer latin cassocks, but if it's traditional you're after then double-breasted is probably the order of the day for Methodists.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
This is what you need. The purple color one-ups the Catholic priest in rank by stressing the built-in episcopal function of UCC clergy.

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• Suit - black (preferable) or very dark navy blue
• Shirt - white
• V neck sweater - black or dark charcoal grey.
• tie - white
• Shoes - black

quote:

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Originally posted by Episcoterian:
My take at it (which reflects the overall weather in my neck of the woods; might not apply or be considered proper/classy dress in Canada):

Street wear

Dress trousers and clerical shirt; a jacket if weather so requires. I can do either tab or dog collar. Dog collars are rare and seen as a strictly Anglican affectation around here, though.

For hospital and parish visitation, suit and clericals, or at least jacket and clericals. That mini-stole applies for sacramental visiting.

Shirt should be in a discreet colour, black or white strongly preferred. Could get away with violet if one is Presbytery, Synod or GA Moderator, though.

For Sundays and all liturgical occasions

Black Geneva Robe. Black clerical shirt (either tab or dog collar). Stole matching Holy Table and Pulpit paraments.

During Summer months, high-collared alb, cincture and stole matching paraments. I am highly fond of this one.

For Weddings, Baptisms, Funerals, Presbytery/Synod/GA special services and all other dress-up occasions

Black Geneva robe (the one Murphy sells with the closed black velvet lining down the front); doctoral robe optional. Black clerical shirt with white bands. Dressier stole or tippet. Hood and respective head cover if applicable (not for me, though; different academic tradition etc.).


This is what I am going to wear, myself, once I get ordained. Too PCUSA-ish?

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These seems like good suggestions, though for street wear, this Presbyterian would like a nice blue clerical shirt. And rather than the Geneva gown with the closed black velvet lining down the front, I'd advocate the Scottish style vented Geneva gown with cassock. (And as I noted in another thread yesterday, I'd leave off the hood.)

I'm curious though why the distinction between "Sundays and all liturgical occasions" and "Weddings, Baptisms, Funerals, Presbytery/Synod/GA special services . . . ." Surely the latter fall under "all liturgical occasions." (And at least in the PC(USA), baptisms will normally be part of the Service for the Lord's Day on a Sunday.) FWIW, I think in the PC(USA) one would rarely see such a distinction. Normal vesting for any service, except in informal settings, would be a Geneva gown or alb and stole, possibly with collar and tabs.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Oh to add to the Mansfield everyday wear when leading worship

Cassock (black), gown (black), scarf (black, some allow limited gold ornamentation, but in the strict cases even the embroidery is black), white bands.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Sebby

This is a Brazilian thing. The only clergy you'll see wearing dog collars down here are the Anglicans. Everyone else, including the RCs, will do tab collar instead.

That is, for those few who do wear clericals. Most of the Protestants prefer to suit up instead. Even among the few who wear robes, regular shirt and tie are more common than clericals.


Nick

I just wanted to add some "oomph" to these dressier occasions. I could settle for robe, stole and tabs for all occasions, though. Cassock, vented Scottish robe, bands and stole/scarf looks nice too.

IPB doesn't have any direct Scottish heritage, though (former PCUS-PCUSA mission), so I probably can't pull this one off myself. Especially because of the cassock.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.
 

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Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 
Is this the style you mean?

Not a very large image, I'm afraid.

[ 24. February 2011, 21:32: Message edited by: +Chad ]
 

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Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

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Try this (pity about the stole ....) or this - the picture about half way down. They look fairly typical.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I really must arrange with my father to do a full how to dress as a Reformed Minister but guy on left here is I think pretty correctly wearing it, he is a Scot by the way.

Note the bands, that nearly always means cassock, not the frills on the shoulder those indicate gown.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Oreophagite (# 10534) on :
 
So, what's the proper width for bands? An Almy cassock comes with a 2" collar gap, making for bands with 1" width each. That seems rather puny, compared to the splendid bands in the above photo.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Around my way standard Methodist - Congregationalist - Presbyterian street dress was a grey suit, dark blue or grey clerical shirt and a dog collar. No tab collars as they are Papist/rather High Anglican. The only avoidance was of the all-black look, which was definitely MOTB (Anglo-Catholic). This distinguished them from the Anglican who wore tweed jacks, "rentman trousers" and a black stock and dog collar. The occasionally townie Anglican clergyman would wear a charcoal grey or black suit - usually with shiny elbows due to age!

PD

[ 24. February 2011, 23:37: Message edited by: PD ]
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Actually, in Canada it's the other way around. Tab collars are the standard in the United Church of Canada, the Anglicans lean toward full dog collars.

Judging from photos of past ministers on the narthex wall and dated photos from the denominational magazine, full dogs were as popular as tabs until the 1960's when tabs became the rule.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
The Methodist, Presbyterian, and Dutch Reformed ministers of my yoof - and the dear retired pastor who took my grandmother's funeral much later - wore their Geneva gowns (for service) over a shirt and conservative (often black) tie.

Is it now common practice to wear the gowns over clericals? (My mother's current minister eschews all forms of "clerical wear" when he's taking a service, as far as I can tell, so I don't know what the Presbies are doing these days.)

Otherwise, I'm fully signed up with the Episcoterian program. (And, if I lived in SPK's town, might contribute to a whip-round to get young Father some headgear by a Eccles-approved vendor. )
 

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Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :
 
I've seen the occasional Anglican or Episcopal priest wear a cassock outside the church sanctuary, but I've never known a Presbyterian or Congregationalist to do so. Can anyone say otherwise?

I like cassocks; they look sharp. I've never worn one with my Geneva gown. I have to say, however, that in wearing one it helps not to be chubby. I don't qualify in that department. My gown happily covers my avoirdupois.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
It is common to wear one's gown with a clerical collar. Ties on ministers around here are less dressy than clerical collars. Mark of office, I think.

The Young Father does have a biretta, I think.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It is common to wear one's gown with a clerical collar. Ties on ministers around here are less dressy than clerical collars. Mark of office, I think.

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Thanks. I can see where that comes from but I suppose in my day the GG was considered plenty of a mark . I will note that clerical shirts were an essential part of the pastoral/visiting kit.

These days a number of them (including my mom's pastor) wear street clothes in the pulpit.

quote:

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The Young Father does have a biretta, I think.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oreophagite:
So, what's the proper width for bands? An Almy cassock comes with a 2" collar gap, making for bands with 1" width each. That seems rather puny, compared to the splendid bands in the above photo.

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The total width of my bands is 31/2 inches, as is the gap in my cassock collar, both from Wippell's.

Not that size matters, of course.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Metapelagius
Try this (pity about the stole ....) or this - the picture about half way down. They look fairly typical.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
The Methodist, Presbyterian, and Dutch Reformed ministers of my yoof - and the dear retired pastor who took my grandmother's funeral much later - wore their Geneva gowns (for service) over a shirt and conservative (often black) tie.

Is it now common practice to wear the gowns over clericals?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
What about hats?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

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In addition to other pictures posted, try this (gown, blue cassock and tippet).

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Double posting and quoting myself to say I found another good picture here. It's from St Columba's in London.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I was finally able to find a good picture of historic practice in the UCCan, located here.

These are the ministers of Saskatchewan Conference who ordained Lydia Gruchy, our first female minister, in 1936. She's at the lower right.

I see that dogs are the order of the day. As I said the more recent fashion has been for tabs.

John Knox cap would be just the thing.

A more recent gown picture is here of the Very Rev. Lois Wilson, Moderator from 1980-82.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
I didn't notice anyone's mentioning preaching tabs yet. (I tried to link to Wikipedia's article "Bands (neckwear)" to no avail but you can see them described and shown there). Schoolchildren in my day must have seen drawings in their history books of the "Pilgrim" clergy so dressed in seventeenth-century Massachusetts, because that formed my first assocation.

The first time I ever saw them in real life was on the priest at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine who was serving as our tour guide through the building in 1964. I thought that they were probably low-church and definitely quaint.
But since then I have noticed them worn by clergy of a definitely high persuasion, although perhaps for some reason confined to the New York area. I've come to like seeing them, but really have no idea what they are supposed to denote or connote.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
I do think adding a frock coat to the clerical wardrobe would cause a sartorial stir all on its owneo.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Up here bands would be easier to get, you just get what the lawyers wear. Judges and lawyers still wear gowns and bands when in Superior Court/Court of Queen's Bench/Whatever (it goes by various names in different provinces). No wigs though for our lawyers and judges.

Anybody care to analyze the pictures I posted for sartorial components? I'm not an expert in this department.
 

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Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Up here bands would be easier to get, you just get what the lawyers wear. Judges and lawyers still wear gowns and bands when in Superior Court/Court of Queen's Bench/Whatever (it goes by various names in different provinces). No wigs though for our lawyers and judges.

Anybody care to analyze the pictures I posted for sartorial components? I'm not an expert in this department.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Double posting and quoting myself to say I found another good picture here. It's from St Columba's in London.

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quote:

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Originally posted by +Chad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Oreophagite:
So, what's the proper width for bands? An Almy cassock comes with a 2" collar gap, making for bands with 1" width each. That seems rather puny, compared to the splendid bands in the above photo.

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The total width of my bands is 31/2 inches, as is the gap in my cassock collar, both from Wippell's.

Not that size matters, of course.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I do think adding a frock coat to the clerical wardrobe would cause a sartorial stir all on its owneo.

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I know a minister who wears one when he is out and about. Most elegant. A youngish man too.
 

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Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Ask and you shall receive.

Gaspard & Sons, $15, velcro fastener the neck strap, one size fits all.

Just the thing for a poor Methodist preacher.

They have an American site, mail might work for you.

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Thanks! My alb came from Gaspard and although most of Gaspard's stuff is pricey, the alb was very reasonable. Haven't noticed the tabs there but I will check. $15 also sounds reasonable, and you are right about "poor Methodist preacher." Ain't none of us getting rich!
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
You have to go to the Canadian site and the bands are in the Legal section. That section doesn't exist in the US version of the site, logically enough. American lawyers don't dress like that.

Perhaps Mrs. Rider and Young Daughter Rider could conspire to arrange for a present of some sort...

[ 26. February 2011, 23:08: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
American lawyers don't dress like that.

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
It was your revolution, you deal with it.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
This is such a good shot Sober Preacher's Kid but Full length Genevan Gown and cassock and a close up showing tabs.

Jengie
 

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Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :
 
Shadyside Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh --- one of the cathedral churches of American Presbyterianism (figuratively, of course). They sure know how to do Reformed worship right.

That having been said, however, the button-down cassock seems unusual to me . . . more Roman.
Whaddya think?
 

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Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Geneva robe worn longer than the American usual... I approve! Mine is also almost cassock-lenght.

The way most people wear it (be in in Court, Academy or Church) is just plain ugly.
 

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Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Wow that is quite a find, the eldership in communion dress!! The give away is actually the ladies, who seem to beI wonder if it is still done anywhere else in the CofS outside London!

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quote:

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Next Nick you will find a pic of a Moderator of General Assembly in full sartorial elegance. (I am sorry I have looked, the custom stopped in the early part of this decade, I have a picture off line but can find nothing online). For those who want I am think black velvet frock coat, lace, breeches and silver buckles but would not guarantee it.

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I aim too please.

Try this.
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
I recall being told (many years ago) by none other than the late Canon Edward N West of NYC's Cathof StJohntheDiv that there was a length difference between Anglican and Presbyterian bands. One being 5" and the other 7". (He was correcting a priest friend of mine, who was wearing the wrong sort.)
Unfortunately, I cannot now remember which was which. I don't really need to know, I'm just wondering.
 

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Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I aim too please.

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quote:

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Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I recall being told (many years ago) by none other than the late Canon Edward N West of NYC's Cathof StJohntheDiv that there was a length difference between Anglican and Presbyterian bands. One being 5" and the other 7". (He was correcting a priest friend of mine, who was wearing the wrong sort.)
Unfortunately, I cannot now remember which was which. I don't really need to know, I'm just wondering.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Wow that is quite a find, the eldership in communion dress!! The give away is actually the ladies, who seem to beI wonder if it is still done anywhere else in the CofS outside London!

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Does "communion dress" mean black? Totally foreign to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Does "communion dress" mean black? Totally foreign to me.

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Well often yes but not necessarily, but have a close look at the suits the ladies are wearing and you will realise that for practical purposes they are identical. The men are also in morning dress, i.e. dark grey trousers and black jacket.

In a number of CofS congregations the dress of elders at communion was highly stipulated, basically a standard uniform. I know Crown Court used to have its on line, including what material the men's suit was in, the tie and so on. However that has been offline I think for about a decade.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oreophagite:
It looks like Wippell's offer bands in both the 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 inch length.

Furthermore, they can be ordered to be tucked in, or to be tied on.

Too many choices...

Perhaps +Chad might have additional insight on...size.

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I think the tie-ons are for your lawyer or academic types - Wippells are not only ecclesiastical outfitters.

As for personal preference - 71/2" to tuck in.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Tangent: This thread reminded me of the 'dress up doll' kits we used to play with as children. I looked up google to see if 'dress the minister' was available as an option. And came across these rather scary alternatives, plus a royal wedding version.

Who knew that dressing up could be so much fun?
 

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Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Oreophagite:
It looks like Wippell's offer bands in both the 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 inch length.

Furthermore, they can be ordered to be tucked in, or to be tied on.

Too many choices...

Perhaps +Chad might have additional insight on...size.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
Who knew that dressing up could be so much fun?

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Anglo-Catholics
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
I'm thinking the modifier isn't strictly necessary.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Cassocks seem to be having something of a revival within the URC. First there is this one, I suspect this one as well and finally I suspect not one but two with a great rarity stole and cassock on one in grey. The third one is I suspect the local Anglican and yet another.

Last year it was albs this year it appears to be cassocks! They are still the minority but given the number of blank searches in the past, this is quite substantial.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
<snip>Cassocks seem to be having something of a revival within the URC. First there is this one</snip>

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But why, oh why, must Reformed ministers (in the broad sense) have the worst taste for stoles in the whole tat-dom?
 

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Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :
 
This is one (but not the only) reason I won't wear a stole. Supposedly, the stole is a symbol of ordination, and stoles also represent the colors of the Christian Year. Recently, however, they have taken upon themselves all sorts of silliness and gaudiness, similar to the chasubles, copes and mitres depicted in the great and infamous "Bad Vestments" blog. The point of said blog is, "It ain't about you." A good many clergy seem to forget that.

I've seen some truly beautiful handmade stoles; I've seen others that were ridiculous. And NO stole, in my not-so-humble opinion, goes with a Geneva gown. The book of Leviticus should have a prohibition against that, if it doesn't.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Episcoterian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
<snip>Cassocks seem to be having something of a revival within the URC. First there is this one</snip>

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But why, oh why, must Reformed ministers (in the broad sense) have the worst taste for stoles in the whole tat-dom?

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quote:

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Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
This is one (but not the only) reason I won't wear a stole. Supposedly, the stole is a symbol of ordination, and stoles also represent the colors of the Christian Year. Recently, however, they have taken upon themselves all sorts of silliness and gaudiness, similar to the chasubles, copes and mitres depicted in the great and infamous "Bad Vestments" blog. The point of said blog is, "It ain't about you." A good many clergy seem to forget that.

I've seen some truly beautiful handmade stoles; I've seen others that were ridiculous. And NO stole, in my not-so-humble opinion, goes with a Geneva gown. The book of Leviticus should have a prohibition against that, if it doesn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I haven't yet made my mind on whether the Scottish-style, open and vented gown can go well with a good stole. The Central-European Talar certainly does not.

But (IMHO) the plain black American Geneva robe looks real nice with a stole. Especially without the hood.

And for the Reformed it has the benefit of adequately conveying the dual nature of the ministry, the teaching of the Word (robe) and the administration of the Sacraments (stole).

Good stoles to go with Reformed robes should be plain satin or discreet brocade matching Table/Pulpit paraments, with equally discreet traditional symbols embroidered near the fringes. Perhaps some more gold and richer embroidery on the white ones for the high feasts, but that's it.

No cute patterns whatsoever, no trying to get any other kind of message across via the stole. And. No. Rainbows. EVER.

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