quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:


Traditional High Church
-English Missal
-Eastward Facing
-Latin Vestments
-Professional Choir which sings Latin
-Latin Mass said on weekdays
-Congregation made up either of gay men, or of about 10 old people all over the age of 80.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Max.:
Worship led by an aging balding man.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Max.:

This would be my definitions of "the liturgical candle" in the Church of England. Feel free to correct me though.


Open Evangelical
-Services simply known by the times that they are celebrated at (The Ten-Thirty Meeting)
-No Altar... maybe a table brought in at communion time.
-No Liturgy except at Baptisms in which they will emphasise many times that they have to follow typical Anglican Protocol and how wonderful it is to be part of the Church of England.
-No robes, we're far too cool for robes!
-Lots of guitars, drums and a really nice photogenic worship leader on the stage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
A Church of England priest I know is careful to point out there is High Church and there is Anglo Catholic.

High Church likes dressing up, but no Haily Mary's. Anglo Catholics preach the Catholic faith.

---

I shall refrain from posting a response to this, but I'm sure you can all guess what my response would be


Max.
 

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

This would be my definitions of "the liturgical candle" in the Church of England. Feel free to correct me though.


Open Evangelical
-Services simply known by the times that they are celebrated at (The Ten-Thirty Meeting)
-No Altar... maybe a table brought in at communion time.
-No Liturgy except at Baptisms in which they will emphasise many times that they have to follow typical Anglican Protocol and how wonderful it is to be part of the Church of England.
-No robes, we're far too cool for robes!
-Lots of guitars, drums and a really nice photogenic worship leader on the stage.

---

I'm not particularly au fait with evangelical distinctions, but I wouldn't call this 'open' evangelical. More like charismatic calvinist. 'Open' evos tend to be a lot more liturgical and tending to MOTR in their ceremonial (well, many of them are in parishes with a much higher tradition). Surplice or alb and stole are fairly common.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
A Church of England priest I know is careful to point out there is High Church and there is Anglo Catholic.

High Church likes dressing up, but no Haily Mary's. Anglo Catholics preach the Catholic faith.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matins:
Knowing TEC, Autenrieth Road's comment are more than likely true.

Using the altimeter of the OP, almost every church in TEC would fit into MOTR. I'll use my place as an example.

We never have incense. I like it. Most of the congregation likes it. There was an unfortunate incident with a thurible and the carpet many years ago. So, there is some reluctance to use it again. If I really wanted to use it on occasions, they probably would agree to it.

I never chant. Why? Because, I'm not that good at it. We have no choir. There are few people in the congregation with good enough voices to sing the responses. If we tried to do a sung service, it would be horrible. We do sing the gloria and sanctus.

The altar has two candles. There are eight on the shelf behind the altar with the aumbry/tabernacle (I'm drawing a sudden blank as to which it is). We always have one vested server who also acts as crucifer and acolyte. We don't have room for more.

The altar is large and faces west. It should face east. It would give us more space and most people would not care one way or the other. I preside from behind the altar using the altar book.

Ceremonial: People bow and genuflect upon entering. They kneel for all prayers. I bow at the incarnatus. I'm not sure what other people do (because I'm up front bowing). I genuflect, elevate, and genuflect while the server rings the sanctus bells. I use three crosses at the epipclesis and another three at the concluding doxology. I vest in chasuble, stole, and a contemporary alb with rolled collar mimicking an amice. I'm thinking about working in a maniple. The chalice is vested. I stay vested for the entire thing.

So...according to the altimeter...what would be MOTR or High? If we are MOTR, then nearly every church in TEC would qualify as MOTR. I've only been to a few places that would actually qualify as high. More places would qualify as low but their number is shrinking. Anglo-Catholic parishes would number under 50 (if that).

Churches just have a hodge podge of traditions that various rectors thrust upon them for the heck of it. It's my pet peeve. I think it causes ill will for no reason other than making the current rector happy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
OK PD, I gotta ask. You say you're getting out more ... but surely it's on visitations within your denomination. How are you managing to get out to gather such a range (and quite a range, well beyond what I can claim to have witnessed) within The Episcopal Church?

And on another point, while there may be examples within each type, I'm rather curious about sheer numbers. I've seen a kabillion MOTR churches and only a handful of the others... either the unique parish in a diocese or the grouping in particularist dioceses (Virginia, for example). I have TEC friends who go on and on about the importance of maniples, but you could fit all the rectors of those TEC churches in my dining room.

Hmm, maybe I'll have them all over for sherry!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What does slotting a church into one of these ceremonial categories tell you?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And this alimeter means nothing in other Eccelesial Communities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
Patrick is right, more dimensions needed.

Perchance:

Height = ceremonial
Depth = catholicism
Breadth = variety of services over church's whole schedule
Orbit - around Canterbury / Rome etc

Perhaps one could develop a points system for the different dimensions - five sarum points to your height for a maniple used correctly, plus ten to your breadth if you have robed choir & praise band on the same day ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:

I think it would be helpful to have two liturgical axes, one for Protestant-Catholic and one for Informal-Formal. Some shacks have ceremonial that is informal but still clearly Catholic, whilst others have very formal liturgies that are devoid of most outward Catholic signs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
Patrick is right, more dimensions needed.

Perchance:

Height = ceremonial
Depth = catholicism
Breadth = variety of services over church's whole schedule
Orbit - around Canterbury / Rome etc

Perhaps one could develop a points system for the different dimensions - five sarum points to your height for a maniple used correctly, plus ten to your breadth if you have robed choir & praise band on the same day ...

---

quote:

---

PD's field guide to TEC churchmanship.


LOW

• West facing altar - West-facing all but universal here, even in high places.
• two lights - Candles on the table are rare in low parishes, but not unknown.
• Surplice or alb and stole for the Eucharist In evangelical Anglican parishes in England it has become more common for priests to robe up for the Eucharist, and is now the norm (it wasn't twenty-five years ago). Cassock and surplice with stole is usual, cassock-alb would be a mark of MOTR-to-high, though I think its creeping in. But you can still find places (especially at the conservative-evangelical end) where the priest will celebrate in clerical shirt and dog-collar; and perhaps rather more (especially at the charismatic-evangelical end), where the priest will celebrate in ordinary clothes, even unto T-shirt and jeans.
• robed servers on Sundays Robed servers are unknown - to us a "server" is the person who distributes the bread or wine and is quite likely an layperson who comes up from the pew at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer.
• Music - Kyrie or Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei Amongst evangelicals probably none of the regular liturgy is sung, unless its one of the tiny number of parishes that keep up with 1662 and Anglican chant. And no Latin other than perhaps at a special occasion as a sort of concert piece. Some places will use worship choruses or Taize or Iona songs in place of canticles or bits of liturgy.
• several hymns Several songs or hymns, often with a worship band rather than organ or piano. The lower down the candle the more singing there is. We might have four old-style hymns in the main part of the service as well as a little five-minute "worship session" with two or three more modern choruses. In a clearly charismatic-evangelical parish there might only be two or even only one hymn (though there nearly always is at least one) but "worship session" could last ten or fifteen minutes or more (& I have seen forty-five, but that was back in the day when "singing in the spirit" was fashionable)
• Not much in the way ceremonial gestures. Bow in and out and maybe at the end of the EP. Sign of Cross at absolution and blessing. Some parishioners may cross themselves privately, but the celebrant is unlikely to do so. If anyone bows its because they are Korean or Japanese.
• A chance of MP as the main service every other Sunday in MA and VA. That was normal in evangelical CofE parishes up till the 1980s but most of the "Open Evangelical" stream now have weekly Communion as the main service. There are many exceptions though, especially amongst the charismatics. Our own parish has been moving back away from Communion as the main service - we did it every week ten years ago, now its more likely to be twice a month or even only once.
• Midweek Eucharist fairly common. Depends more on the size and location of the parish than its churchmanship. I'd say that one midweek Eucharist is common in urban parishes (for some reason usually on Wednesdays) but more than one is rare. Rural and outer suburban parishes are more likely to be Sundays only. There are likely to be non-liturgical prayer meetings and bible studies in an evangelical parish of any size.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?

---

Priest: "Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof."

Congregation: "But speak the word only and my soul shall be healed."

---

There may another name for it. But in any case, in my parish this is repeated thrice before the last ringing of the bell signals the people come forward to receive communion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?

---

Priest: "Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof."

Congregation: "But speak the word only and my soul shall be healed."

---

There may another name for it. But in any case, in my parish this is repeated thrice before the last ringing of the bell signals the people come forward to receive communion.

---

Scribbler, does your parish move the Gloria to its proper place or retain Cranmer's defacement?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
I'll give this a go with my parish:

Height ... 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
For my own parish...

Height - Pulpit oriented MOTR with occasional breaks to both the High side and the Low side.

Depth - Protestant High Church. In other words the five solas, plus a high view of baptism, the Eucharist, and the Apostolic Succession. The present Rector is inclined to a mild version of Predestination. His immediate predecessor was mildly Arminian.

Breadth - modest. The Eucharist is the main service, but that includes a monthly Frankenmass. MP and EP all make regular appearences in the schedule. Music and ceremonial firmly traditional

Orientation - Canterbury via St Louis - i.e. Continuing Anglican.

PD [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
I'll give this a go with my parish:

Height ... 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei...

---

Please, please tell me this is a typo...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Low MOTR - alb and stole; optional chasuble. Robed servers. Fairly informal atmosphere. Kyrie/Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus sung at the main service. Not over blessed in the ceremonial department. Gospel Procession on festivals? Incense at Christmas?? Strong leaning towards "slow Mass" with lots of notices and what I call chit-chat.

Middle-MOTR
Celebrant in alb, stole and chasuble. Deacon and assisting clergy alb and stole. Servers in cassock-albs. A bit more formal feeling than Low-MOTR. Musical preferences about the same but maybe the psalm is chanted and the Preface and Lord's Prayer sung at big does. I always associate the Gospel procession with the M-MOTR places mainly because it is the most noticeable piece of ceremonial. The ceremonial surrounding the EP is still pretty subdued. Bread and wine taken into the hands at the Dominical Words, sign of the cross at the Epiclesis, prominant lesser elevation. Chances are that you will get incense at one of the Eucharists on major feasts.

MOTR-High
Pretty much the same as M-MOTR, there is a chance the deacon will be vested in dalmatic. Chanted psalm, with the celebrant sing the Preface, and sung Lord's Prayer most of the year. Bow at the Incarnats, and occasionally the Nicene Creed is sung rather than said. The ceremonial is a little more formal. The borderline high places may have elevations at the Dominical Words, and bells on occasion. Incense on major feasts. Music programmes very well developed in larger parish.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
I'll give this a go with my parish:

Height ... 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei...

---

Please, please tell me this is a typo...

---

Wow! Maybe that would be some celebration of Moses' experience?

...

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[ 21. July 2009, 16:09: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
My own preferences:

Height: Evangelical and Charismatic. Good worship group (but not too showy), LCD Projectors, Modern Worship Music, Plain Building, Small Altar Table with a couple of tea lights scattered on it which is in the midst of the gathered community. Ambo is up high on a stage at the front with a band surrounding it and a big plain wooden cross on the back wall. Priest vested in a lightweight white chasuble with a liturgically coloured stole over the top. No other dressing up as we wouldn't want it to be too fussy or showy.

Depth: Charismatic Catholic. Fairly conservative and evangelical Roman Catholic doctrine, authority of the Church's teachings emphasised and devotion to the Blessed Sacrament encouraged (with daily adoration of the Blessed sacrament available at the Church) and with daily confession available as well as Bible Study groups and Rosary devotion groups.

Breadth: The Eucharist must be central to daily worship with Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament taking place daily. All celebrated in a Charismatic manner with a full time worship coordinator playing guitar.

Orientation: Roman Catholic.


A short little note, as of yet my ideal Church community does not exist... yet


Max.

[ 21. July 2009, 16:15: Message edited by: Max. ]
 

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Posted by Patrick the less saintly (# 14355) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:


I would also suggest adding a 'Prosperity' axis to your schema. Richer (larger) parishes are more likely to have robust music programmes, larger well-drilled serving teams &tc that may make a place seem superficially high. In our case I'm fairly certain our deacon wears dalmatics because the parish could afford to buy them, not necessarily through any theological rationale.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
I think it can be ported over to us non-Anglicans. How about this (Warning for Thread-Skimmers--this is not a rating system for Anglican churches!):

Low Free Church:
-No vestments ever
-No altar. May be movable communion table, used only for storing trays. Not front-and-center.
-Order of service is totally local custom. May be fixed from week to week or variable, but shows no effects of tradition outside that church [or its parent, if a satellite]
-Scripture readings, if any, are small bits incorporated into a talk
-No talk of "sacraments" -- may have communion, but treated as a simple act of sharing and no liturgical words used

High Free Church:
-Same as Low Free Church, only with emphasis on Believers' Baptism

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSwift:
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSwift:
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.

---

What would you add?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Organ Builder:
To throw something else in the mix: suppose a church has "Stations of the Cross"...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Anyone can have Stations of the Cross. Even Baptists can have Stations of the Cross if they want. Certainly lowish Anglicans. Though more likely posters on the wall than a permanent feature.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSwift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSwift:
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.

---

What would you add?

---

It is hard for me to say. Where I am at and have been at, there is no movable communion table. It is seperate or shared with the lectern but immovable and front and center.

The scripture readings are connected to the sermon or part of a congregational reading plan, as opposed to a lectionary.

"Believer's baptism" is emphasized with the baptistry also in a prominent location.

No liturgical words per se but some phrases have in a sense taken on a liturgical like meaning by force of tradition.

So I seem to be in some middle ground between the two.

---

Rather than inserting a mid-ground category, I'd simply modify the High Free Church definition to include the possibility of a fixed communion table, and a scripture reading as you mention. From what you mention, I'd definitely classify that as High Free Church (although I did make up the term last night ).

What would separate you from Low MOTR is a whiff of larger tradition beyond the four walls of the church itself.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by gianbattista:
It once occured to me that a useful, if approximate, "altimeter" would be to divide the amount of time taken for the Peace by the amount of time taken for the Elevation of the Host.

---

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the amount of time spent on the Liturgy of the Catechumens vs. the Liturgy of the Faithful (Before offertory and after). For instance, at the Holy Eucharist in my Lutheran church, we spend roughly 2/3 of the time pre-offering, and 1/3 post-offering. In a Roman Catholic place with equivalent liturgical music, hymns, and ceremonial, it is usually closer to 1/2 and 1/2. Sermon time blows us out of the water.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by gianbattista:
It once occured to me that a useful, if approximate, "altimeter" would be to divide the amount of time taken for the Peace by the amount of time taken for the Elevation of the Host.

---

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the amount of time spent on the Liturgy of the Catechumens vs. the Liturgy of the Faithful (Before offertory and after). For instance, at the Holy Eucharist in my Lutheran church, we spend roughly 2/3 of the time pre-offering, and 1/3 post-offering. In a Roman Catholic place with equivalent liturgical music, hymns, and ceremonial, it is usually closer to 1/2 and 1/2. Sermon time blows us out of the water.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cruet:
Patrick the less saintly,
Could you be refering to St. Paul's in San Antonio? If so, you descibed it perfectly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
However, the Liturgy of the Word to Liturgy of the Eucharist ratio works for us. We are about 50-50; however I have to qualify that by saying that the Prayer for the Church and the General Confession are placed after the offertory in the 1928 BCP. If I used Rite One from the 1979 BCP it would be closer to three-fifths to two-fifths. That would fit with our MOTR tradition.

I have usually found the sermon as a percentage of run time pretty reliable guide in liturgical churches. There are exceptions of course! When we lived in SoCal we had six Continuing Anglican churches within easy driving distance. At the lowest in churchmanship the sermon occupied 40 to 50% of the run time of the main service. At the highest it was more like 12-15%. The MOTR-High shacks all ran between 20 and 25% of run time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And this alimeter means nothing in other Eccelesial Communities.

---

I think it can be ported over to us non-Anglicans. How about this (Warning for Thread-Skimmers--this is not a rating system for Anglican churches!):

Low Free Church:
-No vestments ever
-No altar. May be movable communion table, used only for storing trays. Not front-and-center.
-Order of service is totally local custom. May be fixed from week to week or variable, but shows no effects of tradition outside that church [or its parent, if a satellite]
-Scripture readings, if any, are small bits incorporated into a talk
-No talk of "sacraments" -- may have communion, but treated as a simple act of sharing and no liturgical words used

High Free Church:
-Same as Low Free Church, only with emphasis on Believers' Baptism

Low MOTR Church:
-May be clerical robe, but wearing or not wearing is treated as pastor's or individual church's choice
-Liturgical color is not a factor
-Has altar or communion table, latter may be movable
-Order of service is basically fixed from week to week, and shows some effects of a parent tradition [for instance--a pattern of Gathering-Word-Communion-Sending]. May be some variable additions from week to week (i.e. special music)
-Sacraments (Big 2) - not necessarily "believers' baptism," Communion and Baptism celebrated infrequently
-Sacraments celebrated with "freestyle" wording--nothing from denominational texts
-People in pews may be expected to pray aloud simple, commonly-known prayers--the Lord's Prayer and Apostles' Creed, for instance
-A scripture "text" is read, lectionary or not is uncertain--appears to be somebody's choice

Middle MOTR Church:
-Vestments are the norm, and involve some sort of stole (robe and stole or cassock-alb and stole). May be not worn on several occasions each year.
-May pay attention to liturgical color
-Has altar or communion table
-Has Holy Communion on a regular schedule, at least once every two months at the main service
-Order of service is basically fixed from week to week, and shows some effects of a parent tradition [for instance--a pattern of Gathering-Word-Communion-Sending]. May be some variable additions from week to week (i.e. special music)
-Sacraments are celebrated with the same basic ordo each time, with almost no variation in wording. Still may be "freestyle," but the wording is such that it could be remembered and repeated by those who hear it frequently.
-People may be expected to follow and contribute voice to a liturgical order in a book or bulletin
-Uses a lectionary of some sort, but can be changed on clerical whim

High MOTR Church:
-Vestments are the norm. Cassock-alb and stole, with possible chasuble for Holy Communion. May not wear vestments on several occasions yearly.
-Liturgical color traditions are followed
-Has altar or communion table
-Holy Communion at least once monthly at the main service
-Sacraments are celebrated consistently using a fixed liturgical order
-No "freestyle" liturgy at all
-People in pews are expected to follow and contribute voice to a liturgical order in a book or bulletin
-Uses a lectionary

High Church:
-Vestments required, chasuble for Holy Communion
-Liturgical colors taken seriously
-Has altar or communion table
-Holy Communion weekly at main service
-Follows consistent liturgical order
-People know liturgically what happens from week to week
-Lectionary obeyed
-Dignity and ceremony are emphasized

Nosebleed High:
-Are these people pretending to be Catholics/Orthodox or what?

Sober Preacher's Kid, based on what you gave I would place your church at Low MOTR level.

Others? How would you modify the list above?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

---

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cruet:
Patrick the less saintly,
Could you be refering to St. Paul's in San Antonio? If so, you descibed it perfectly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

---

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

---

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
But they feel very different and ours feels smaller. It is of course a lot plainer (practically every church in England is plainer) and a lot lighter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Ah yes, a church so spectacular that the only thing Ian Nair could think to describe it as was an orgasm.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
I tend to think in the UK that low church C of E tend not to wear vestments.

---

quote:

---

I would have thought things like candles/types pf procession/ whether there are bells and smells/ style of music to be more indicative of the motr/high divide over here

---

• More than one robed minister
• Gospel procession
• Gospel readings by a "deacon" (who may actually be a Deacon but in practice often isn't)
• Preaching mostly done by clergy, or at the most extreme licensed Readers
• Stage business with various vessels and cloths and ablutions immediatly before the Eucharistic Prayer.
• white wine
• wafers
• standing for Communion
• Whoever is distributing the wine keeps a firm hold of the cup.
• Intinction (dipping in the wafer)
• Eucharist as the main worship service every Sunday morning (These days that is MOTR and High rather than specifically Anglo-Catholic)

• Only the president robes (if anyone does)
• Gospel read from the lectern
• Gospel readings by any member
• Preaching sometimes by unlicensed lay people
• Quite simple ceremony with a minimum of ritual manual actions.
• red wine
• real bread
• kneeling for Communion
• The cup is handed over to the communicant
• No intinction (most of our lot have never heard of it and wouldn't recognise it if they saw it.)
• Morning Prayer as the main worship service on at least some Sunday mornings (though many evangelical parishes moved to weekly Holy Communion in the 1980s, and a few are moving back now for some reason or other)

But they are vague clues - there are big exceptions to all of those. Your mileage may vary. But in general if a CofE church has more from the first list than the second they are likely to be Anglo-Catholic (and vice versa)

There are some Unchangeable and Invariable Rules though:

• Reserving the sacrament is almost always high, evangelicals are very wary of it. Even places that did it (for example to take to the sick) wouldn't make a fuss of it and wouldn't have any public adoration of it. In fact most of the congregation would be unlikely to know it was being done.
• Statues of saints, votive candles, and general iconic tat, are High. Though there can be all sorts of mediaeval thingamajigs in old parish churches of any flavour - its the use of statues and paintings that is the Clue, not their mere presence. And some Anglo-Catholic churches are quite plain. And evangelicals often dabble in tat in an arty alt.worshippy sort of way - though more likely in evening or midweek services than on Sunday morning.
• Mariolatry. Making a fuss about Mary is something evangelicals Just Don't Do. You won't hear the Hail Mary or see candles in front of statues of her. If any of them use the Rosary they keep it between consenting adults in private. Many MOTR and mildly AC places don't go for it either, but if you find a CofE shack that does, you can be sure they are high up the candle.
• The real clincher is calling the priest "Father". Evangelicals never do, High-Church types always do. This is the Dead Giveaway. Honest, Guv.

Oh, and at our church on Easter Sunday, two out of the three ordained priests present were robed, which is odd for us. They were both wearing cassock, surplice, and stole. I think we must be low

And yet, and yet... my nose detected a whiff of incense. Something unknown in almost that place since it was built.
 

---

Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on :
 
Regarding Stations: Most TEC parishes, at least in the Diocese of LA, either do not feature them or include them as sort of an afterthought (as two-dimensional pictures, for example). My old TEC parish, though, featured giant Italian and very realistic three-dimensional stations. I recall that RC visitors were always impressed (and in fact, both my former and current RC parish could not rival the stations in, well, "Catholicity.")

Ken's listing of "high" and "low" in the Church of England just emphasizes how different TEC liturgical practices are from those of the "mother church." For example, I have rarely seen communicants standing to receive in TEC; almost invariably, the communion rail is well used, whether the parish is low, MOTR or high. The use of "real bread" also varies; at my old TEC parish it was a no-no while at my brother's MOTR parish in Michigan it appears to be common.
 

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Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 
Just a question, because my experience of "high" church is quite limited:

Is it possible to be relatively "high" in the ways described on this thread, but to be theologically liberal (e.g. sceptical about miracles, higher criticism of the bible, open to female and/or gay clergy, etc)?

I'd like to experience a "high Unitarian" service, with choirs, candles, vestments, maybe some incense for good measure, but with a liberal, post-theistic interpretation of it all. Does such a thing exist?
 

---

Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on :
 
The "highest" Unitarian church of which I am aware is King's Chapel in Boston -- formerly Anglican, it follows a liturgy that is based on the Book of Common Prayer.
 

---

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'd like to experience a "high Unitarian" service, with choirs, candles, vestments, maybe some incense for good measure, but with a liberal, post-theistic interpretation of it all. Does such a thing exist?

---

quote:

---

extreme licensed Readers

---

ie. like leo and Bishop's Finger, as opposed to extremely moderate licensed Reader ken.

Ken's 'high/low' checklist is pretty accurate except as regards kneeling for communion. The division here is 'trad' versus 'modern': very many trad a/c places kneel, many evo places stand. Though in the latter case, probably proportionately fewer as I imagine the practice originates with Vatican 2 and evangelicals are less likely to take note of that.

I would have thought standing to receive communion is the norm in RC churches; very much the exception in Anglican ones.
 

---

Posted by Patrick the less saintly (# 14355) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Just a question, because my experience of "high" church is quite limited:

Is it possible to be relatively "high" in the ways described on this thread, but to be theologically liberal (e.g. sceptical about miracles, higher criticism of the bible, open to female and/or gay clergy, etc)?

---

quote:

---

I'd like to experience a "high Unitarian" service, with choirs, candles, vestments, maybe some incense for good measure, but with a liberal, post-theistic interpretation of it all. Does such a thing exist?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

extreme licensed Readers

---

ie. like leo and Bishop's Finger, as opposed to extremely moderate licensed Reader ken.

---

I love the thought of being an 'extreme licensed reader'.

I have always been wary of extreme sports but I am preaching about the discipleship of risk this Sunday. (The gospel includes walking on water and the lectionary devotes 5 more Sundays to the eucharist.)
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Another thought - what is meant by 'preaching by clergy or, at the most extreme' licensed reader'?

Maybe it means that they prefer clergy unless they are desperate.

The parish church (Resolutions ABC) that I don't go to has two female Readers and they take their turn on the rota alongside the (male) clergy.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Ooh - I quite like being described as an 'extreme licensed Reader' as well!

Mind you, having come from a con-evo background, via a couple of MOTR parishes and a Cathedral, to the A-C parish in which I now serve, I hope I've managed to imbibe some good things from all of them! I have a feeling I might be quite happy with the worship at ken's church..........

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by ptarmigan (# 138) on :
 
None of those are low. We found a low church - Haworth in Yorkshire, where the BRonte sisters were daughetrs of the manse.

On Christmas day the main morning service was morning worship. In the small print it was mentioned that anyone who wished to receive the Lord's Supper was invited to go to the side chapel after coffeetime.

It was celebrated for the handful of us that stayed by a presbyter in cassock and surplice (no stole) from the North end of the table.

This was more than a decade ago.
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 
LADave, Organ Builder, Patrick - Thank you.

(For a moment I got mildly excited about Boston - until I realised that it was the American Boston, not the English Boston. So I don't think I'll be able to get there anytime soon...)
 

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
@Ken - I know of plenty of Evangelical Places where they stand to receive communion and where intinction is normal. I would've thought that intinction would've been a low-church thing seeing as us Catholics don't do it.
St Mary's Bryanston Square actually automatically intinct the pieces of bread, they don't let one sip from the cup.

Also Ken - My Catholic Church has more in common with the Low Church list than the High Church list.

Max.

[ 22. July 2009, 21:21: Message edited by: Max. ]
 

---

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :
 
Yes, intinction which was more associated with anglo-catholics (and certainly not conservative evangelicals) is used by some large charismatic evangelical churches in London. Certainly Holy Trinity Brompton and related churches like St Mary's Bryanston Square and St Paul's Hammersmith. But that's a localised exception to the rule in the good ol' CofE.
 

---

Posted by gianbattista (# 3883) on :
 

quote:

---

Some other vague clues at Holy Communion in the Church of England are:

High:

. . . .
Intinction (dipping in the wafer)

---

Coming out of an American context, I have never thought of intinction as particularly "high." It strikes me as more characteristic of the generic MOTR found in the American church. It was practiced in the Methodist parish I grew up in (if dipping Wonder Bread in Welch's grape juice counts), and in TEC parishes, it has always looked to me like a fussy antiseptic practice to indulge the obsessively germophobic. The A-C parish I attend in Los Angeles will not allow communicants to intinct unless the celebrant dips the wafer, then places it on the communicant's tongue.

Which brings up an issue that is slightly off topic, as it involves choices made outside of the chancel rather than inside. Something I Read On A Blog Somewhere: when the late Mother Theresa was asked what in her opinion was the most serious problem facing the Church, she is said to have replied: "Wherever I go in the world, the saddest thing I see is people receiving the body of Our Lord in their hands." And I was told -- not by clergy -- at the same A-C parish that I should always receive on the tongue. But perhaps this has already been discussed somewhere.
 

---

Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :
 
Looking at Ken's list, I see High Churches use white wine and don't hand over the chalice to individual communicants. Where does this leave my parish, which has always used red wine and has encouraged communicants to take the chalice into their hands, as specified in the BCP rubric? But the main service is a High Mass with three ministers and incense. Neither do we have Stations of the Cross, which would be regarded as extreme Romanism. We don't do genuflection either.

We can't be Anglo-Catholic as two of the clergy are female. Confusing or what..........

SS
 

---

Posted by Patrick the less saintly (# 14355) on :
 
All Saints Margaret Street also has red wine (I think, it may actually be rosé, which would be weird), everyone kneels who is physically able to do so and I've not seen any intinction, although I don't make a point of watching what others are doing. We also don't have stations of the cross on permanent display. In fact, with the exception of a single shrine to the BVM, there is remarkably little stuff in the church, largely because the building itself is so elaborate.
 

---

Posted by gianbattista (# 3883) on :
 

quote:

---

All Saints Margaret Street also has red wine (I think, it may actually be rosé, which would be weird), everyone kneels who is physically able to do so and I've not seen any intinction, although I don't make a point of watching what others are doing. We also don't have stations of the cross on permanent display.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gianbattista:
' Patrick's comment suggest that temporary Stations might be installed there for Lent. Is this the case?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Also Ken - My Catholic Church has more in common with the Low Church list than the High Church list.

---

That's cos you are low-church Catholics of course. Which is the main tradition of the rump or English RCism before it got Hispanified recently.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Looking at Ken's list, I see High Churches use white wine and don't hand over the chalice to individual communicants. Where does this leave my parish, which has always used red wine and has encouraged communicants to take the chalice into their hands, as specified in the BCP rubric? But the main service is a High Mass with three ministers and incense. Neither do we have Stations of the Cross, which would be regarded as extreme Romanism. We don't do genuflection either.

We can't be Anglo-Catholic as two of the clergy are female. Confusing or what..........

SS

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
(no stole, however --- I have a theological objection to it).

---

quote:

---

A curious omission to all the previous posts is any mention of preaching. Where are the notable preachers of our generation to be found? Does great preaching cross liturgical lines in the Commonwealth? What, if any, emphasis is placed upon the homily in High and Anglo-Catholic parishes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pommie Mick:

Stone altars? They're thin on the ground where I am...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
My theological objection to the stole is based solely on my understanding of the nature of the Free Church ministry, where one is, to use the ancient phraseology, "set aside" (or "apart") to the pastorate. Ordination is, basically, the solemn installation of a minister into his/her office. The minister has no particular powers that a layperson doesn't have; he/she serves as "pastor and teacher" of the church. (Theoretically, an appointed layperson could, if necessary, celebrate Holy Communion in the absence of an ordained minister, though this is seldom done.)

Thus the Geneva gown is an appropriate vestment; it symbolizes the minister's preaching and teaching role. (The hood does as well, and is regularly worn by some of our clergy.) The collar, as a convenient badge of office, is optional; some Congregational ministers wear it and some don't. I find it helpful as a means of identification. I also wear bands on special occasions.

The stole, in my mind, carries with it a sacerdotal connotation that stands in opposition to the Congregational concept of ordained ministry. The same would be true of Baptists.

All this having been said, there are Congregational ministers who wear the stole; some also wear the cassock-alb. They're a minority, however, and some of us grumble about it (with the full recognition that "each to his own" is the Congregational way --- those who object can't do a thing about it). This is about as liturgical as we get in terms of vesting; chasubles, copes and so forth would be a total no-no.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:
Indeed. I'm trying to think if I've ever seen them at a RC church. If I have it'll only have been at an EF Mass. Were they even compulsory then? I'm not sure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
The Chalice and Paten are veiled and placed in the centre of the altar table throughout the liturgy of the word and then unveiled at the offertory. The chapel is of a very modern persuasion otherwise.
It reminds me an awful lot of the evangelical Anglican Churches here in Somerset who follow the same practice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
The Chalice and Paten are veiled and placed in the centre of the altar table throughout the liturgy of the word and then unveiled at the offertory. The chapel is of a very modern persuasion otherwise.
It reminds me an awful lot of the evangelical Anglican Churches here in Somerset who follow the same practice.

---

That's what most, but not all, the CofE churches I am familiar with do. And they put the cloth, whatever its called, back over the things at the end.

---

Strange how evangelicals always seem to adopt the pointless bits of tat. Like the Solemn Elevation of the almsdish.

A church where I sometimes officiate, and where the 'north end' position is the rule, has a 'fully vested' chalice and paten prominent in the centre of the Lord's Table just like it would be in an old-fashioned anglo-catholic mass. Then at the offertory one has to unveil it and drag it in a somewhat undignified manner to the north end of the table. Strange!
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
Hart - in the 'olden' days only clergy were allowed ,in the rc church ,to touch the sacred vessels directly - at least that was the idea - those who cleaned the vessels would wear gloves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
++Fulton Sheen was probably the last great R.C. preacher in the U.S.; he died twenty-odd years ago.

---

I must admit that Theodore Cardinal McCarrick's sermons occasionally at televised Masses on EWTN gave me new hope about RC preaching.

No Lutherans, huh?
 

---

Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :
 
The use of chalice veils by low and MOTR Anglicans, not to mention cathedrals which should know better is beyond my comprehension. They are totally without Anglican authority and can't even be justified on the grounds of practicality, since they have no obvious use. Just another bit of tat to get in the way Cut them up and turn them into soemthing useful like amice apparels.......

The use of a burse, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable.

SS
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
The use of chalice veils by low and MOTR Anglicans, not to mention cathedrals which should know better is beyond my comprehension. They are totally without Anglican authority and can't even be justified on the grounds of practicality, since they have no obvious use. Just another bit of tat to get in the way Cut them up and turn them into soemthing useful like amice apparels.......

---

Some things simply look nice.
 

---

Posted by Matins (# 11644) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
The Chalice and Paten are veiled and placed in the centre of the altar table throughout the liturgy of the word and then unveiled at the offertory. The chapel is of a very modern persuasion otherwise.
It reminds me an awful lot of the evangelical Anglican Churches here in Somerset who follow the same practice.

---

That's what most, but not all, the CofE churches I am familiar with do. And they put the cloth, whatever its called, back over the things at the end.

---

Strange how evangelicals always seem to adopt the pointless bits of tat. Like the Solemn Elevation of the almsdish.

A church where I sometimes officiate, and where the 'north end' position is the rule, has a 'fully vested' chalice and paten prominent in the centre of the Lord's Table just like it would be in an old-fashioned anglo-catholic mass. Then at the offertory one has to unveil it and drag it in a somewhat undignified manner to the north end of the table. Strange!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matins:

My understanding is that they don't even vest the chalice at Nashotah. However, it is still practiced in many places some that aren't particularly high church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matins:

My understanding is that they don't even vest the chalice at Nashotah. However, it is still practiced in many places some that aren't particularly high church.

---

This is the point. It's the low church people (who I have a lot of time for, but you've got to admit that most of them don't understand liturgy) who cling on to these meaningless customs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
[
It's as if Catholics dumped EVERYTHING fiddly in order to become more modern whilst evangelicals kept some things in order to be in touch with their historical pre-reformation past... even if they don't fully understand that!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matins:

My understanding is that they don't even vest the chalice at Nashotah. However, it is still practiced in many places some that aren't particularly high church.

---

This is the point. It's the low church people (who I have a lot of time for, but you've got to admit that most of them don't understand liturgy) who cling on to these meaningless customs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Organ Builder:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pommie Mick:

Stone altars? They're thin on the ground where I am...

---

Stone altars sometimes reveal more about the architect than the congregation. I know of at least one church near Boston with a stone altar. If you go into the nether depths, you discover it is masonry all the way down to the bedrock--far exceeding what would be necessary to support the weight of the altar.

The congregation--at its highest--was MOTR. At the time the church was built, it seems to have been lower still. The architect, however, was very High.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Umm... this "chalice veil".. would that be something covering the bread and wine until communion is reached in the running order?

It might not be down to anything other than Food Hygiene rules..

It's bread and wine; ergo it's food; it's not being used until 45 mins to an hour into the service; so therefore it's being breathed on during that time. To avoid that... cover it.

Typically with Cuppies, the top layer of trays offers a cover to the top row of cups..

With platters in a Bring and Share buffet - if they're being pre-positioned, normally the covers stay on (think clingfilm over a bunch of sandwiches) until just before.

Instead of clingfilm, a cloth will do as well, and a white sheet carried with the communion bits is less likely to go missing than a tea towel.

Makes perfect sense to me...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Umm... this "chalice veil".. would that be something covering the bread and wine until communion is reached in the running order?

It might not be down to anything other than Food Hygiene rules..

It's bread and wine; ergo it's food; it's not being used until 45 mins to an hour into the service; so therefore it's being breathed on during that time. To avoid that... cover it.

Typically with Cuppies, the top layer of trays offers a cover to the top row of cups..

With platters in a Bring and Share buffet - if they're being pre-positioned, normally the covers stay on (think clingfilm over a bunch of sandwiches) until just before.

Instead of clingfilm, a cloth will do as well, and a white sheet carried with the communion bits is less likely to go missing than a tea towel.

Makes perfect sense to me...

---

It hate to say it, but it's possible that was the original idea in medieval times... to stop dust and things falling on it.
There is another cover called the Pall which is like a piece of stiff cardboard covered in cloth, in the old tradition (and some still practice this... especially in hot countries) the priest covers the chalice with the pall before and after the consecration, only taking it off when he says the institutional words. The reason? To stop flies contaminating the cup!

Alex, you have received ONE black button for your cassock. Receive another 32 and you shall be ordained a priest!


Max. Who has negative buttons
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Umm... this "chalice veil".. would that be something covering the bread and wine until communion is reached in the running order?

It might not be down to anything other than Food Hygiene rules..

It's bread and wine; ergo it's food; it's not being used until 45 mins to an hour into the service; so therefore it's being breathed on during that time. To avoid that... cover it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

It's as if Catholics dumped EVERYTHING fiddly in order to become more modern whilst evangelicals kept some things in order to be in touch with their historical pre-reformation past...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matins:
We do the solemn elevation of the alms complete with doxology every Sunday. I always understood that was a low church thing. The stack is vested and sitting on the corporal. This is the tradition for the entire diocese.

---

quote:

---

This is the point. It's the low church people (who I have a lot of time for, but you've got to admit that most of them don't understand liturgy) who cling on to these meaningless customs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I agree it makes sense, if the chalice and paten are already full of bread and wine. Maybe that is the low-church custom. But in most churches that I know, the bread and wine are not placed in the vessels, nor on the altar, until just before the eucharistic prayer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:
In many evangelical Anglican churches, the bread would be real bread and put out on the paten on the cloth on the table before the service, and then covered. Likewise the wine (with a dash of water) would be poured into the chalices, which would each be covered.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I don't think you will find many evangelicals who use a 'mixed chalice', i.e. they don't add water. The mixed chalice was one of the 'six points' of ritualism for which priests were taken to court in the Victorian era.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I agree it makes sense, if the chalice and paten are already full of bread and wine. Maybe that is the low-church custom. But in most churches that I know, the bread and wine are not placed in the vessels, nor on the altar, until just before the eucharistic prayer.

---

Alex is right. You can't assess one part of the evangelical norm out of the context of the whole and put it in a higher church service.

In many evangelical Anglican churches, the bread would be real bread and put out on the paten on the cloth on the table before the service, and then covered. Likewise the wine (with a dash of water) would be poured into the chalices, which would each be covered. Then the whole lot would be covered. Just as you might do with a picnic of sandwiches and ribena before meal time.

When it comes to the fraction of the bread, the covers would be removed (usually during a song immediately before). After the last communicant has received the covers would be replaced. After the end of the service, the lay assistants would remove the covers, eat and drink the leftovers and wash up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I don't think you will find many evangelicals who use a 'mixed chalice', i.e. they don't add water. The mixed chalice was one of the 'six points' of ritualism for which priests were taken to court in the Victorian era.

---

Be that as it may, they do round 'ere. I frequently celebrate in evangelical parishes and the mixed chalice seems to be the rule

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Red / White wine was mentioned as a difference.

---

...and why do some just go straight to the whiskey?

[ 25. July 2009, 21:30: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 

---

Posted by Marginal Catholic (# 14735) on :
 
Using white wine can be a reminder to the faithful that the liturgy is not just about symbols (ie red for blood)- it actually is blood, the colour being irrelevant.
 

---

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :
 
Not from the perspective of Baptists like me...

Or Methodists, or evo Anglicans, or Pentecostals...


 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
The use of chalice veils by low and MOTR Anglicans, not to mention cathedrals which should know better is beyond my comprehension. They are totally without Anglican authority and can't even be justified on the grounds of practicality, since they have no obvious use. ....
The use of a burse, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable.

SS

---

The low-church shack where I presided this morning had the (empty) chalice and paten on the altar from the beginning of the service, covered in a green chalice veil. Underneath this was an empty burse! The mind boggles.
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Underneath this was an empty burse! The mind boggles.

---

Oh, you mean the coaster?
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:
... the bread would be real bread and put out on the paten on the cloth on the table before the service, and then covered. Likewise the wine (with a dash of water) would be poured into the chalices, which would each be covered. Then the whole lot would be covered. Just as you might do with a picnic of sandwiches and ribena before meal time.

When it comes to the fraction of the bread, the covers would be removed (usually during a song immediately before). After the last communicant has received the covers would be replaced. After the end of the service, the lay assistants would remove the covers, eat and drink the leftovers and wash up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
* The bread and wine were prepared before the service and placed on the Holy Table.
* The alms were brought to the Table at the offertory, and the elements shuffled across to the north end
* The cloth over the elements was removed during the Sanctus
* After Communion the bread and wine were covered again
* After the service the remain bread and wine were consumed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I don't think you will find many evangelicals who use a 'mixed chalice', i.e. they don't add water. The mixed chalice was one of the 'six points' of ritualism for which priests were taken to court in the Victorian era.

---

Be that as it may, they do round 'ere. I frequently celebrate in evangelical parishes and the mixed chalice seems to be the rule

---

and round 'ere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marginal Catholic:
Using white wine can be a reminder to the faithful that the liturgy is not just about symbols (ie red for blood)- it actually is blood, the colour being irrelevant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marginal Catholic:
Using white wine can be a reminder to the faithful that the liturgy is not just about symbols (ie red for blood)- it actually is blood, the colour being irrelevant.

---

Is that really why people use white wine rather than red? Seems a weak argument to me.

---

Sounds like one of those stories made up after the fact to me. A liturgical explanation that followed rather than preceded the action it explains.

But I don't know the history of it. (I could make up a Just So story, but I don't really know)
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I agree Ken. Why would people say White in just to show its blood and not depending on the colour of the wine.

Maybe its to say the blood has white blood cells too, lol.

I bet it was chosen just because some priests preferred white.
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
It's easier to get out of purificators. I suspect that's many people's reason. My former parish used Rosé because people that don't like wine found it easier to consume (seeing as Rosé doesn't really taste like wine...).
 

---

Posted by Marginal Catholic (# 14735) on :
 
In 'Redemptionis Sacramentum' there are several things about ensuring the wine used for the Eucharist is valid matter, however colour is not mentioned ie. the colour of the wine doesn't matter.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
While I prefer red white for normal drinking, I prefer white for communion. There is always a slight shock factor with the first sip of a dry wine; sweet wine doesn't have this, and most good sweet wine happens to be white. I celebrated yesterday using the foulest red wine I have ever tasted*: I suspect it had been left in an open bottle all week. But even properly looked after red altar wine tends to taste yucky.

I know that Holy Communion is not meant to be a gourmet wine tasting, but if the stuff is so foul as to make you gag, it seems to me that it's not really contributing to a sense of devotion.

*and because we had told people that the chalice was optional in the light of the flu crisis, I could have been left with a whole chalice-full of the stuff. Fortunately most people received in both kinds.

[ 27. July 2009, 22:01: Message edited by: Angloid ]
 

---

Posted by Marginal Catholic (# 14735) on :
 
Ours is amber colour, and tastes like cheap sherry -(but the altar wine aint cheap!) We had a bad batch recently with loads of sediment floating in it, but we returned it as wine that has gone bad is not valid matter.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Ours is Cooperative Fairtrade Red Wine (of varying types). Sometimes we use Kosher Wine
Anything not used in the chalice that day, is left in the bottle at the back of the Church for anybody to have at Coffee time!


Max.

[ 27. July 2009, 22:45: Message edited by: Max. ]
 

---

Posted by Marginal Catholic (# 14735) on :
 
Max, is that wine approved as valid matter? The validity of the sacrament is in question if the bread and wine are not valid.
 

---

Posted by Patrick the less saintly (# 14355) on :
 
The Church youth camp I went to always seemed to mix the chalice so that the contents were, at an absolute maximum, 50% wine.

Port is the almost universal choice in the ECUSA, perhaps because it is sweet enough that even small children don't mind the taste and because it is strong enough that it still tastes like wine when mixed with water. Well, in as much as port ever tastes like wine. A boy at my school, whose parents owned a fairly poncey restaurant, asked our chaplain why he didn't get some 'good' wine for school Eucharists, to which the chaplain responded with mock indignation but perfectly sincere theology that 'one doesn't need good wine for it to be the Blood of Christ'.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marginal Catholic:
Max, is that wine approved as valid matter? The validity of the sacrament is in question if the bread and wine are not valid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Ours is Cooperative Fairtrade Red Wine (of varying types). Sometimes we use Kosher Wine
Anything not used in the chalice that day, is left in the bottle at the back of the Church for anybody to have at Coffee time!


Max.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I have always used port, and mixed the chalice, but with only a few drops of water. Most sacramental wines are far too sweet and sticky.

PD

---

I am trying to imagine a wine sweeter or more sticky than port, Tokaji, which I have never been lucky enough to sample, is the only thing that springs to mind and, given its cost, I don't see that being used in the chalice anytime soon, although I know it was the favourite of certain Popes, including Benedict XIV who is said to have come up with the following, rather lame, Latin pun: "Benedicta sit terra, quae te germinavit, benedicta sit mulier, quae te misit. Benedictus sum, qui te bibo."

[ 28. July 2009, 04:43: Message edited by: Patrick the less saintly ]
 

---

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :
 
^^^ "Tokaji" - anglicised to "Tokay"?

Hmmm - never thought of Benny getting shitfaced on the same wine namechecked by Noel Coward in "Bittersweet"...

 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
If you're after a superb sweet wine with a good port-level alcohol content, you can't go past a liqueur muscat from Rutherglen or Corowa. Bt as I've noted before, as did Patrick's chaplain, the Eucharist is not an occasion for a wine tasting.
 

---

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
When you mentioned kosher wine I hope you don't mean Manishevitz or Mogen David!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:
Alcohol is a natural disinfectant, and communion wine is usually stronger than house wine

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
To get rid of them you have to denature the proteins and nucleic acids in them. So you want ... direct sunlight

---

Which would be a problem this 'summer'.
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
In Toronto, one of our Anglo-Catholic shrines is traditional Prayer Book Catholic, and one is modern Anglo-Papalist. This poses a problem for someone like me who prefers to worship in a traditional Anglo-Papalist shack.

So I have to go to St Thomas's, Huron Street, if I want AO celebration, maniples, and a six-colour sequence.

But I have to go to St Mary Magdalene if I want Evensong and Benediction (instead of "Devotions" to the veiled Sacrament at St T's, which may or may not involve actual Benediction at the climax), Asperges before Mass and Angelus after, minor propers, Stations of the Cross, rosary groups, High Mass on Marian feast days (only Candlemas at St T's), and the New English Hymnal.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I have always used port, and mixed the chalice, but with only a few drops of water. Most sacramental wines are far too sweet and sticky.

PD

---

I am trying to imagine a wine sweeter or more sticky than port, Tokaji, which I have never been lucky enough to sample, is the only thing that springs to mind and, given its cost, I don't see that being used in the chalice anytime soon, although I know it was the favourite of certain Popes, including Benedict XIV who is said to have come up with the following, rather lame, Latin pun: "Benedicta sit terra, quae te germinavit, benedicta sit mulier, quae te misit. Benedictus sum, qui te bibo."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
A boy at my school, whose parents owned a fairly poncey restaurant, asked our chaplain why he didn't get some 'good' wine for school Eucharists, to which the chaplain responded with mock indignation but perfectly sincere theology that 'one doesn't need good wine for it to be the Blood of Christ'.

---

On the contrary, there is a Canonical requirement in the CofE that it should be "the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome".

So, no Chateau Washpot.

Unfortunately a Canon of which all too many sacristans appear to be unaware.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Chad:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
A boy at my school, whose parents owned a fairly poncey restaurant, asked our chaplain why he didn't get some 'good' wine for school Eucharists, to which the chaplain responded with mock indignation but perfectly sincere theology that 'one doesn't need good wine for it to be the Blood of Christ'.

---

On the contrary, there is a Canonical requirement in the CofE that it should be "the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome".

So, no Chateau Washpot.

Unfortunately a Canon of which all too many sacristans appear to be unaware.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
nor should it be a fine vintage Bordeaux

---

 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Actually who cares much about canon law in the C of E? Not vicars or priests it seems to me, lol.

Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?

Probably only on an altimeter of the 1920s
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass, and the celebrant always preaches, and anyway, Father Knows Best. If they find themselves lumbered with a Reader who won't go away they'll shove him in a dalmatic and call him a sub-deacon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?

---

The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass, and the celebrant always preaches, and anyway, Father Knows Best. If they find themselves lumbered with a Reader who won't go away they'll shove him in a dalmatic and call him a sub-deacon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass,

---

quote:

---

and the celebrant always preaches

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Actually who cares much about canon law in the C of E? Not vicars or priests it seems to me, lol.

Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?

Probably only on an altimeter of the 1920s

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
although they may concelebrate if the parish has gone over to modernist liturgical fads.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Actually who cares much about canon law in the C of E? Not vicars or priests it seems to me, lol.

Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?

Probably only on an altimeter of the 1920s

---

I meant Blue stoles that those ordained priest apparently wear somewhere, but only in the Dreamy / Dearmy world of St Chad, perhaps! lol

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Dalmatic or tunicle?

---

There are Some Things that Man was Not Meant to Know.
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Whoops, sorry Mr Host.

I have no problem actually, my comment was meant as a joke, but I will be more careful next time,

On Altimeter: I'd say Catholic in C of E sense is:
Advertised times of confession
Walsingham pilgrimage regularly
Weekday massES (not just one)

Are v good indicators, below which one should not go, lol.
 

---

Posted by Fifi (# 8151) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Advertised times of confession

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Don't think I've ever been to a Catholic parish then!

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Dalmatic or tunicle?

---

There are Some Things that Man was Not Meant to Know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Well, neither do you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Well, neither do you.

---

?????

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Well, neither do you.

---

?????

---

Neither do you recognize yours as a Catholic parish, given that you've referred to it as MOTR several times on the boards recently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

More importantly, we anglo-catholics claim that the C of E is the catholic church of this realm

---

quote:

---

:our orders are valid, our eucharists valid etc.

---

quote:

---

In that sense, every C of E parish is a catholic parish.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
On reflection, it is more complicated. In the old days there was a rating system - Daily mass, Sung Eucharist every Sunday, Confessions and reservation. We have 3/4 - the daily services are at the other church.

Then there were extras like:

incense - we have on greater festivals
full vestments - always
full Holy Week ceremonies - always
statues/icons and votive lights
6 candles on or around the altar - yes
emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - yes
regular use of holy oils for baptisms, confirmations and anointing the sick - yes

---

My Catholic Parish (Capital 'C') is also 3/4, Confessions heard for 10 minutes before Mass.

Incense - In a bowl at some Festivals
Full Vestments - Only on Sundays and only with certain Priests
Holy Week - Yes
Statues/Icons - Yes
Votive Candles - Only in front of one statue
6 candles - No
Emphasis on the Sacrament rather than the Word/Sermon - I actually think that they tend to go hand in hand, they're both important. Probably more emphasis on the proclaimation of the Word than the Sermon, the Sacrament is meaningless without the foundation stone which is the Word.
Regular use of oils - Usually
Confirmations and Annointing - Yes


Max.
 

---

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
What exactly in an Anglican context does the phrase 'full holy Week ceremonies or services ' mean ?

Does it mean 'services every day of Holy Week' ?

Does it mean ' all services of Holy Week as contained in the Book of Common Prayer ?

Does it mean ' all services as in pre Vat 2 roman Missal' ?

Does it mean ' all services as in present Roman Missal' ?

Or does it mean non of these ?
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Of the ten or so Anglican churches in our Deanery at least one has 15/15 of Leo & Max's list, another two or three have 12 or 13 or more (the most common missing one is probably Confession)

But on the other hand there are at least two churches that score zero on the list

I think you could probably find a CofE parish within walking distance of here with any given score.

We would have been at the very bottom of the list twenty years ago but like most so-called "open evangelicals" we've been moving up:

• Daily mass - no, not even every Sunday
• Sung Eucharist every Sunday - no, never
• Confessions - no, never
• reservation - no, but sometimes pre-sanctified bread is taken to sick or housebound
• incense - no, other than as a decorative part of quiet evening services
• full vestments - depends what you mean by "full". Traditionally a cassock and surplice place, but no vestments at all for about half the sevices. Have been moving up the candle fast and cassock-albs with stoles have been spotted on ocasion
• full Holy Week ceremonies - again, depends what you mean, but this year we had twelve services in eight days, so that's pretty full.
• statues - no
• icons - very occasionally make an appearance as part of a sermon or at a vaguely alt-worshippy evening or midweek service
• votive lights - not regularly, though some might make an appearance now and again
• 6 candles on or around the altar - no candles regularly, sometimes one or two on special occasions. Well, Easter anyway. There can be any number of candles not on the table,
• emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - other way round
• holy oils for baptisms - no
• oils for confirmations - that's up to the bishop, so usually yes
• oils for anointing the sick - yes

• Daily mass - not quite, but next week there'll 4 communion services (which is usual) and a 5th in one of the team churches (so 5/7). Three midweek communion services is the normal pattern with additional services for feasts - next week it's for the Transfiguration on 6 August;
• Sung Eucharist every Sunday - used to be, now only have 3 out of 4. We do have Choral Evensong the Sunday we don't have Sung Eucharist.
• Confessions - not advertised, anywhere;
• reservation - yes, and sanctuary light
• incense - for selected services - Easter, Christmas, Epiphany, Patronal, Christ the King, etc.
• full vestments - chasubles are worn, with frontals in seasonal colours for all Eucharistic services, including midweek said communion services
• full Holy Week ceremonies - depends what you mean - there was a communion service every day, the full Triduum series, Maundy Thursday stripping of the altar, vigil at the altar of repose, compline, Good Friday last hour service, Easter Vigil on the Saturday evening, Dawn Service and Easter Day service.
• statues - no-ish
• icons - several
• votive lights - votive stand
• 6 candles on or around the altar yes, behind with the altar cross - two on the altar
• emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - yep - midweek communion services and 8am do not always have a sermon
• holy oils for baptisms - yes
• oils for confirmations - yes
• oils for anointing the sick - yes

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
What exactly in an Anglican context does the phrase 'full holy Week ceremonies or services ' mean ?

Does it mean 'services every day of Holy Week' ?

Does it mean ' all services of Holy Week as contained in the Book of Common Prayer ?

Does it mean ' all services as in pre Vat 2 roman Missal' ?

Does it mean ' all services as in present Roman Missal' ?

Or does it mean non of these ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
I suspect that I Presby. tenebrae is not like an Anglo-Catholic tenebrae.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.

---

• Palm Sunday: Blessing of palms and procession TO church from somewhere else (without any wretched donkeys! We are doing liturgy, not drama.), Passion Gospel sung or read dramatically. - mmm done the procession with donkeys - that stopped when the donkeys died shortly afterwards. When the second died, the donkeys were decided against, although the procession continued. Nowadays in a different church, the procession happens, but doesn't come from somewhere else. Dramatic reading of the Passion means no sermon that day.
• Maundy Thursday: Foot washing, procession of the blessed sacrament to the altar of repose and watch until midnight all except the foot washing here. Did the footwashing in a previous parish though. You missed the putting out of candles and stripping of the altar, and here the closing of the reredos triptych. Also Compline service at midnight - sung plainchant.
• Good Friday: Ministry of the word, longer-than-usual intercessions, veneration of the cross either corporately or, better, individual kissing, general communion from the sacrament reserved yesterday yes all of that, although it's a corporate veneration of the Cross, sung version of the reproaches.
• Easter Eve or very early Easter Sunday: blessing of the new fire, lighting and procession of the paschal candle, vigil readings, blessing of the font, renewal of baptismal vows and sprinkling, first mass of Easter. All but the first mass of Easter at the Saturday evening Easter vigil service. The blessing of a new fire, procession of the Paschal Candle and sending out candles to the team churches at the dawn service which is at 6am.
• And, because catholics like fun, I might add, plenty of gin or champagne later on. after the main Easter Day service (with incense) Pashka and Kuhlich with wine.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
I suspect that I Presby. tenebrae is not like an Anglo-Catholic tenebrae.

---

Almost certainly not, but it would I suppose have the same purpose. It is an intriguing thought - iIs anyone able to describe such a ceremony, please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.

---

Not the way I described it, they don't. It is only very, very recently that we have even had authorised liturgies for these ceremonies. For most of my lifetime, we nicked stuff from the Roman Missal to accompany them.

---

quote:

---

Confessions - no, never

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure that you don't have a Victorian confessional-box, or a notice saying "Father X will be available to hear confessions on Saturdays at 5pm". But are you telling us that if someone went to your vicar wishing to make a confession and receive absolution, s/he would be told to go elsewhere?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.

---

Not the way I described it, they don't. It is only very, very recently that we have even had authorised liturgies for these ceremonies. For most of my lifetime, we nicked stuff from the Roman Missal to accompany them.

---

I think, unfortunately, you are probably right. But since the traditional liturgies have been officially authorised (first Lent, Holy Week & Easter and then Common Worship, they have been adopted in some surprising places.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Tenebrae that I experienced involved a set of biblical readings interspersed with hymns and a gradual turning off of the lights so that after the last reading all the lights in the church were in darkness. The readings were largely the passion narrative. The congregation then left in silence.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

---

Icon of Conrad Noel, maybe?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
[

Is it still tat if it's English rite a la Percy?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daviddrinkell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

---

Icon of Conrad Noel, maybe?

---

LOL - but for all his eccentricities, I'm not sure you could call Conrad Noel an afficionado of tat. I suppose it depends on one's definition of tat.

---

As far as Bl. Father Noel is concerned, does
this count as tat?
 

---

Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
It's the John Lewis tendency of the C of E.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by +Chad:
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daviddrinkell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by +Chad:
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat.

---

"This" being a picture of Noel wearing what he called an 'English habit' and a Canterbury cap. The rig that St. Percy pointed out to a heckling passer-by (who called him a papist)as being what Ridley, Latimer and Cranmer wore as they went to the stake.

I love the John Lewis analogy and accept that there is such a thing as 'tasteful tat'.

Noel was definitely a champagne socialist, even something of a snob. He was born into the richer classes and never really seems to have left them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

---

Originally posted by daviddrinkell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by +Chad:
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat.

---

"This" being a picture of Noel wearing what he called an 'English habit' and a Canterbury cap. The rig that St. Percy pointed out to a heckling passer-by (who called him a papist)as being what Ridley, Latimer and Cranmer wore as they went to the stake.

I love the John Lewis analogy and accept that there is such a thing as 'tasteful tat'.

Noel was definitely a champagne socialist, even something of a snob. He was born into the richer classes and never really seems to have left them.

---

Conrad Noel was an individualist and an eccentric, and the Church would be the poorer if we did not have a few of those somewhere! That said, I am not sure what positive achievements can be chalked up to him other than getting a lot of people to thnk rather than merely think. PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
The red flag has gone, of course,...

---

"of course"?
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
The red flag has gone, of course,...

---

"of course"?

---

I echo ken's disappointment with a

I think I've visited Thaxted church twice. The first time must have been soon after the death of Noel's successor (Jack Putterill?) when enough of the Noel and socialist ethos still remained. The second time was after the Forward in Faith takeover. Whatever the merits or not of the (dead horse) ideology of FinF, so many of them - not all, by any means - seem to represent a political as well as ecclesiastical conservatism. I rather think that the chapel dedicated to John Ball, the rebel priest of the Peasants' Revolt, had been abandoned.
 

---

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
So, if the left has the red flag, what do we on the God-Fearing Righteous Right have? A blue flag?

Out of curiosity does the Labor Party in the UK still sing The Red Flag?
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
I believe they do, though what goes through the minds of some of them as they do it, I have no idea.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
*bump*
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
So, if the left has the red flag, what do we on the God-Fearing Righteous Right have? A blue flag?

Out of curiosity does the Labor Party in the UK still sing The Red Flag?

---

As far as I can figure out, the answer to that in the USA is "the Stars and Stripes." I really dislike national flags in church except on special occasions. I have managed to get the flag shuffled as far out the church as the sacristy door, which is at the back of the Church.

I have a dim recollection that the Red Flag disappeared from party conferences. I have to be extremely careful not to start singing the following when I hear "O Tannenbaum."

"The people's flag...

or worse still,

"The working class
Can kiss my arse!
I got the foreman's job as last."



PD
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:

Out of curiosity does the Labor Party in the UK still sing The Red Flag?

---

quote:

---

"The people's flag...

or worse still,

"The working class
Can kiss my arse!
I got the foreman's job as last."

---

Don't you mean

"The people's flag is palest pink,
It's not as red as you might think ..."?
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Or the immortal Julian and Sandy's:

'The people's flag is deepest puce
With fleur de lys in pale chartreuse...'
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
but *cough*badattackotangents*cough*

T²
Eccles Host
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I think most parishes are a bit of a blend these days, but the few folks who care will unerringly assign you to either the Low, MOTR or High camps.

My own church gives off mixed signals. Until the late 1980s it was decidedly Low in an old fashioned Episcopal way.

* Holy Communion was celebrated every Sunday at 8am
* MP and HC alternated at 10am
* EP and Bible Study midweek

There were two candles on the altar, no reservation, and music was restricted to Hymns, the Venite and Canticles at MP, and the Kyrie, Sanctus, Agus Dei and Gloria at HC. Vestments - cassock, surplice, and tippet/stole.

"Phase Two" - from 1990 onwards - saw the place moved into the MOTR camp. The six office lights appeared on the back of the altar; Eucharistic vestments and reservation were introduced; and MP disappeared from the worship schedule. Elevations at the words of institution became the norm, and a sanctus bell appeared.

The next Rector tried to take the place Anglo-Catholic and all hell broke loose, and 40% of the congregation (and most of the money) left. He introduced the Missal, incense, regular confession times, Stations of the Cross, and a holy water stoup by the door. The vestry drop kicked that rector out of the door and reverted to MOTR as per phase two, but the Stations and the Holy Water stoup survive.

I have tended to follow the MOTR tradition but there has been some wiggling around:

* Changed the service times from 8am and 10am to 9am and 10.30am to alleviate the "8 at 8 and no parking at 10am" syndrome
* I junked the office lights and bought two standard candlesticks which stand either end of the footpace
* the veiled stack on the altar has given way to chalice and paten with a purificator, two corporals and a burse on the credence table.
* I have cut back a bit on the use of the sanctus bell.
* The Proper Preface and the Lord's Prayer are now chanted fairly frequently - usually three Sundays out of four but not at all during Lent.
* When I was still in my Anglo-Catholic phase, I introduced incense on Christmas, Easter, Pentecost and All Saints Sunday.
* I reintroduced MP before the 9am Low Mass on Sundays. Once a month we have MP as the Liturgy of the Word at the Eucharist for such as delight in Matins.
* I let it be known when I will be in church to hear confessions before the following major feasts - Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, and All Saints.
* We now have a midweek Eucharist and Bible Study instead of the old EP and Bible Study.
* We have a prayer meeting on Friday nights.

I am not sure whether we have drifted Higher or Lower, or just changed things about a bit.

PD
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
As a non-Anglican, and at the risk of derailing the thread, might I ask a question?

We non-conformists are "gathered churches", i.e. people can decide to join us, or not, according to whether they like the church they see. Changing things may well cause ructions because people find that the church they are being asked to sign up to isn't the church they first joined. But, basically, each church can decide what it wants to be. It is its members' own business (and, I hope, God's!)

Anglicans, however, are placed in geographical parishes (in the UK, anyway). Now, we all know that many Anglican churches, whether HTB style or those at the top of the candle, do function as gathered churches - people are part of them even though they live miles away. They pass many other churches to be where the perceived action is.

And so to my question: to what extent should a church which is truly serious about being a "Parish Church" make the effort to try and reflect or accommodate the whole range of churchmanship found within its locality, rather than choosing one distinctive approach which may drive many parishioners to other places of worship further away?

I know that, in practice, this is well-nigh impossible to do. But ought it to be attempted, especially in rural areas where parishes are widely-spaced and populations low?
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
The default in rural areas used to be MOTR, which tended to offend no-one except the real enthusiasts at both ends. The Evangelicals might drift off to the chapels (but rarely did) - or encourage the parish to be a bit more Evangelical. Anglo-Catholics would usually go to a more sympathetic parish in a nearby town, encourage the vicar to be a bit more catholic, or do a bit of both.

What happens today is harder to discern. I think the time has come when Anglicans do not stick to the parish church unless it is bally awful or 180 to what one prefers. I think most of us now tolerate a notch either side of what we like, but then go somewhere else.

In my home area, the tendancy has been to create rural team ministries with a result that the villages usually get a watered down version of what goes on in the town church. My old MOTR-Low parish is now under the oversight (an apt word) of the vicar of the neighbouring town, who takes a one size fits all AffCaff approach. Not much attempt to accomodate differing opinions there I fear.

I tend to think that if the hierarchy of the Church of England wants to reach the semi-churched it needs to be less ashamed of its Protestant and Evangelical heritage. My mainly Low Church family has drifted away from regular church attendance as the C of E has drifted up the candle. I think there is a need for action there before it is too late.

PD
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
INteresting that you should think the C of E has drifted up the candle, when most complaints at least here in Ecclesiantics are that it's been taken over by happy-clappy evangelicals. I think in fact people are a bit more tolerant, and 'catholic' liturgical practices are no longer seen as disloyal. But they, and traditional BCP style liturgy, are often seen as irrelevant.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
INteresting that you should think the C of E has drifted up the candle, when most complaints at least here in Ecclesiantics are that it's been taken over by happy-clappy evangelicals. I think in fact people are a bit more tolerant, and 'catholic' liturgical practices are no longer seen as disloyal. But they, and traditional BCP style liturgy, are often seen as irrelevant.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
812.

Thurible

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
812.

Thurible

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813. You forgot me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
I have noticed that quite a few TEC bishops wear rochet, chimere and stole, and carry their croziers when making visitations. Where does this pencil out in churchmanship terms?

PD

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Nowt to do with churchmanship, just bad taste. Stoles (of any colour) clash horribly with a red chimere. Though I suppose with a black one they'd be OK.

I suppose American bishops, wherever they are on the altimeter (altarmeter?) are less likely than some English ones to ape Rome either theologically or sartorially.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Nowt to do with churchmanship, just bad taste. Stoles (of any colour) clash horribly with a red chimere. Though I suppose with a black one they'd be OK.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Nowt to do with churchmanship, just bad taste. Stoles (of any colour) clash horribly with a red chimere. Though I suppose with a black one they'd be OK.

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Do you mean like this? (you need to scroll down)

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Well, they're with red ones, and IMHO they look pretty silly. If they want to dress simply, why not just cassock-alb and stole? Or if they are supposed to be 'in uniform', ie choir habit, then wear a black scarf like all the others.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Oh dear.

That is all!
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
I'm afraid you just have to admit this as an evolving, contemporary Anglican usage -- like cassock-albs ( ). In the USA tippets are very little used most places these days, especially with the disappearance of Morning Prayer as a main Sunday service. So stoles become the default clergy vestment. In the Texas dioceses I cited it's not unusual to see a visiting bishop celebrating the Eucharist in rochet, chimere, and stole of the colour appropriate to the season, feast or occasion. In my view, of course, this is a multiple faux pas, but it's contemporary American low-lowMotr style.
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Oh dear.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
...Anglo-Catholic Dioceses of Fort Worth and Dallas.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In the Texas dioceses I cited it's not unusual to see a visiting bishop celebrating the Eucharist in rochet, chimere, and stole of the colour appropriate to the season, feast or occasion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Nowt to do with churchmanship, just bad taste. Stoles (of any colour) clash horribly with a red chimere. Though I suppose with a black one they'd be OK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In the Texas dioceses I cited it's not unusual to see a visiting bishop celebrating the Eucharist in rochet, chimere, and stole of the colour appropriate to the season, feast or occasion.

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I thought that even 'low-church' TEC parishes normally use eucharistic vestments. Am I wrong?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I thought that even 'low-church' TEC parishes normally use eucharistic vestments. Am I wrong?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Oh dear.

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Quite. Even if that multi-colored job is very ‘worthy’ (solidarity with the people of Guatemala, or something).


But back to the altimeter. I seem to recall a suggestion that the highness of a CofE Bishop can be judged by how blue his purple shirt is. Do we think there is any truth in this, and which way round is it (the bluer the higher, the redder the lower, or vice versa)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
However, around 1971 Bishop Quarterman of the Diocese of Northwest Texas still appeared in black chimere. His co-adjutor, +Willis Henton, who was elected very soon after that wore red chimere and introduced the mitre to the diocese.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
...Anglo-Catholic Dioceses of Fort Worth and Dallas.

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[apologies for the brief tangent]

I've always meant to ask you why there are two dioceses in such a small area. Is it simply an issue of size, or is it more complicated (churchmanship? argument?)

What about the rest of Texas?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
...Anglo-Catholic Dioceses of Fort Worth and Dallas.

---

[apologies for the brief tangent]

I've always meant to ask you why there are two dioceses in such a small area. Is it simply an issue of size, or is it more complicated (churchmanship? argument?)

What about the rest of Texas?

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quote:

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Originally posted by malik3000 on another thread:

I always thought our church, EUSA, was MOTR but reading this, maybe candle meter readers can give a more accurate rating (i'd be interested in ratings from England, Canada, and elsewhere also)

All 3 Sunday services are always the Eucharist. All ministers fully vested in chazzies, dalmatics, etc.

8AM Eucharist Rite 1 no music. Only 2 readings.

9AM and 11:15AM Eucharist Rite 2. Both with robed choir, processing led by a verger and full set of eucharistic ministers fully vested. Both have the kind of hymns and anthems one might typically come across in your average ECUSA parish, at least in my opinion. Sometimes the 9AM, billed as the "family service" gets a little more folksy, including occasional appearances by a bluegrass group of which the rector is a part.
The 9AM service uses 2 readings and the 11:15 uses all 3 readings, with an Anglican chant (or sometimes plainsong) psalm after the 1st reading. (I must mention that our congregation does quite well at joining in the chanting.)

Our rector is probably the lowest on the candle of our 3 priests (2 men, 1 woman. We've just got a 4th priest but i don't know much about her yet.) The rector uses the sign of the Cross less than the others but he always uses it at the absolution and the final blessing. The other priests are higher up the candle including sign of the Cross. One of them especially is high up the candle, and his previous post was at the "highest" church in town.

We have no regular weekday services except Compline after "Wednesday Night Live" a basically family activities get-togther. I haven't been, but the bluegrass group sometimes sings at Compline. There is a once a month midday healing eucharist.

Incense. Used at the Easter Vigil and one of the 2 otherwise-identical Christmas Eve eucharists. Which service has the incense is clearly advertised. If this is to warn anyone with allergies, I don't think that should be a worry as the actual incens use is so tentative that one can barely smell it even if one is quite close up front. No Smokey Mary's here!

But we are nearly all-eucharist, fully vested. And we chant good. So what are we?

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quote:

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typically MOTR parish [...] but at 11.00 on Sunday had three sacred ministers (all priests) vested respectively in chazzie, dalmatic, and tunicle

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In the TEC context I would simply call it MOTR.

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quote:

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I wonder how this would register in the Altimeter...

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1. Old fashioned formal worship, 5 hymns psalms communion once a year and forty minute sermons. No organ and not really sure they should have a notice on the front the church.
2. Liturgical inovators, 4 hymns, 1 psalm not necessarily sung, twenty minute sermon, communion monthly, responses and creative liturgy regularly in worship. Probably have an organ and maybe a choir. These are likely to light candles and such.
3. Family service norm, 4 hymns and choruses mix, no psalm, definitely a children address (maybe only a children's address), open sharing of concerns in worship, communion monthly although weekly not unknown, ten minutes sermon max. Probably led by someone on the piano.
4. evangelical imitators norm praise worship time fitted into a semi-formal order of worship, forty minute sermon, use of multimedia to display things.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I will leave others better than me to talk about liberal low church people who are definitely a diminishing group.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I wonder how this would register in the Altimeter...

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quote:

---

liturgical colours, vestments,

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quote:

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Presbytertians don't foam at the mouth when they see a chasuble and many ministers actually wear them. They didn't believe me. Perhaps now they will.

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Thanks for the response, SPK. I'm just trying to learn; its just that I've been hermetically sealed in my own little Episco-Anglo-Catholic vault for so long that I'm unsure of what happens in other mainline churches.

My aunt and uncle are pretty old (uncle is nearly 70); maybe they are just out of step with how the church is doing things these days?
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I appreciate opportunity to tangent to explain a hobby-horse of mine.

See, one of the big disconnects between Anglo-Catholics, Anglicans/Episcopalians and everyone else is that when a Presbyterian minister wears a chasuble and her congregation chooses to have monthly Communion and stick to the RCL, they not not disclaiming anything about themselves.

When I read posts by the Anglo-Catholic Brigade here in Eccles, there's a lot of "the Low Church people don't like this" or "The Bishop is pretty Protty and won't let us do that" or "We're not on good terms with the Low Church parish three blocks away". It seems that silos are pretty common. That sort of thinking if foreign to me.

When a Presby or UCCan congregation goes this route, they don't day things like that. Presbytery isn't going to come down on their heads for changing things a bit. The congregation still affirms that they're Presbyterian or UCCan, they're just choosing to emphasize some things from the 2000-year history of the Holy Catholic Church (of which we are a part, creedaly speaking). You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. We're all part of one big family.

The cool thing is that you don't have to play doctrinal limbo do justify anything. It's all there. In fact many churches in the Presbyterian world were what I would call wet-baby Baptists in the early 20th Century. If that was a bit of an extreme down one path, this is a turn towards another in reaction to that. It's normal, it's healthy.

The other thing is that both PCUSA and the UCCan have a long history of mergers so that toleration and moderation are skills that we have worked very hard to develop. That's why many ministers refrain from nasty, divisive rhetoric.

Finally, with respect to your family, the modern chassie-wearing, ecumenically-aware minister who exemplifies Jengie's Category [2] is a product of the 1960's and after. The time when Vatican 2 made us Prots sit up and look again at the Roman Catholic Church without resorting to hackneyed stereotypes about the "Scarlet Woman". It's also when many divinity schools became part of interdenominational consortiums (often with Roman Catholics), on cost grounds as much as ecumenical ones.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:

quote:

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liturgical colours, vestments,

---

A chasuble, though? Really?

My uncle and his wife are both PCUSA ministers; both are far from the contemporary worship crowd, but neither would have anything to do with a chasuble.

Is this more common in the UCCan and the Presbyterian Church of Canada, SPK?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rowen:
This all sounds pretty similar to the Uniting Church in Australia too.
We are pretty easy-going about worship styles and what-to-wear. Heck, we even see incense at some churches now. And then, at the other end of the spectrum.... Well!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
You'd be surprised how many Reformed are onto that too.

Sorry, but we spread our worship leading wider and if I had a penny for everytime I hear "what on earth am I supposed to make of this weeks lectionary readings", I would be a good way to making my fortune.

Jengie

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quote:

---

Now that's going up the candle on a widespread basis.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
In fact even rural three-point charges can and will organize services for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.

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quote:

---

I don't like that dialectic, it seems like trying to shred your identity, whereas the Presbies and the Catholics choose to affirm their identities in everything they do.

---

I don't disagree with you, SPK; most of us A-Cs don't like the setup either. I would love to be able to get along with my bishop; for the most part, I do. Many, though, do not. But when there are differences in churchpersonship and ecclesiastical identity, there is bound to be some tension. And we are affirming our identity; it just so happens that we have a different view of that identity than the relevant ecclesiastical authority. For better or worse, A-Cism has always been sort of a ghetto within the larger Anglican church. Of course, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Also, while many self-concious A-Cs do not use the provincial prayerbook, I think very few of us (at least in North America) use the Roman Rite.

[ 09. November 2010, 18:20: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
 

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Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

But here is the really contradictory factor. The standard non-conformist meal-communion for Maundy Thursday is being adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church but on Wednesday of Holy Week.

The flow is not in one direction.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

Likewise if the Catholics want to have a Eucharistic Meal on Holy Week Wednesday, I'm sure that the doctrine of Transubstantiation will be fully proclaimed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:

quote:

---

I don't like that dialectic, it seems like trying to shred your identity, whereas the Presbies and the Catholics choose to affirm their identities in everything they do.

---

I don't disagree with you, SPK; most of us A-Cs don't like the setup either. I would love to be able to get along with my bishop; for the most part, I do. Many, though, do not. But when there are differences in churchpersonship and ecclesiastical identity, there is bound to be some tension. And we are affirming our identity; it just so happens that we have a different view of that identity than the relevant ecclesiastical authority. For better or worse, A-Cism has always been sort of a ghetto within the larger Anglican church. Of course, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Also, while many self-concious A-Cs do not use the provincial prayerbook, I think very few of us (at least in North America) use the Roman Rite.

---

If Anglo-Catholics only used Roman Rite, Eccles would have little reason to exist.
 

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Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Jengie and SPK, thanks for that explanation. I can see how something like could be adapted in a Latin Rite context.* It would be tricky though. Off the top of my head, I don't see how that could be officially "joined" to a Mass (the reasons relate to some of what's been discusssed on Sabine's "What is litugy?" thread).

Jengie, while I'm not really familiar with what's going on in the UK, I would be careful about saying something like that is being "adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church". That could imply something is being officially adopted, when its more of a trend or fad among some liturgists and prayer groups. Not that whatever it is is necessarily a bad thing in itself. I think it would be better to say that "among some Catholics", "some RCs", etc. (but that's just my opinion, of course). Then again, I could be wrong, and there's a diocese that's doing this officially.

* unofficialy, as part of a prayer group meeting, or religious education, etc.

[ 09. November 2010, 19:01: Message edited by: Pancho ]
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
As Pancho says the eucharistic meal (often called the Mass) is celebrated liturgically every day in the Catholic church - with the exception of Good Friday - where Communion is distributed under the form of bread alone at the liturgy.

This includes every day of Holy Week (apart from Good Friday) and with only ONE celebration of Mass on Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday.

Like Pancho ,I have no idea what SPK means by a eucharistic meal on the Wednesday of holy Week nor what his use of the word 'transubstantiation' means in this context.

There is a great difference between the official liturgy of the Catholic church provided for these days and what individuals may do as a private devotion -is SPK perhaps referring to the custom of having a Passover type meal sometime in Holy Week ? - Catholics who might think of having this type of meal would usually NOT have it on Holy Thursday in order that it does not clash with the important liturgy of the day. Many people are against this idea of having a Passover type meal as,although it might be interesting ,it is a sort of 'Faux' Passover meal,just like some people who might play at celebrating a Mass or a bit like children playing at the celebration of a wedding.

Scotland is a part of the UK,but I certainly cannot think of any other 'eucharistic meal' celebrated by UK Catholics on the Wednesday of Holy Week.
 

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Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I have joined this discussion late, but all I can think of is the possibility of a Seder meal being celebrated on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday in Holy Week. I have experienced this and it is Jewish-based of course, but that is in addition to the Mass of the day.
 

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Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If Anglo-Catholics only used Roman Rite, Eccles would have little reason to exist.

---

There would still be all the ProttyPresbyBaptyPentyMethy whatnots for us to engage in meaningful debate.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
Jengie, while I'm not really familiar with what's going on in the UK, I would be careful about saying something like that is being "adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church". That could imply something is being officially adopted, when its more of a trend or fad among some liturgists and prayer groups. Not that whatever it is is necessarily a bad thing in itself. I think it would be better to say that "among some Catholics", "some RCs", etc. (but that's just my opinion, of course). Then again, I could be wrong, and there's a diocese that's doing this officially.

* unofficialy, as part of a prayer group meeting, or religious education, etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I always wondered this when I hosted and never quite got up the courage to ask. Why do you want to know ? what is the personal or theological significance of knowing one's own and one's parish's place on the altimeter ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
From a TEC perspective, I'd say overall your parish was low-motr. Frankenmass puts you on the low side of MOTR.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
From a TEC perspective, I'd say overall your parish was low-motr. Frankenmass puts you on the low side of MOTR. If you alternated MP and HE, I'd say you were low by current TEC standards.

How about my parish?

Sunday
8AM-Eucharist Rite I (said, no music)
10Am-Rite II (with choir)
No weekly Eucharist or daily office unless it is a major holy day.

Sanctus bells are always used. Mass vestments are always worn. We have incense on All Saints, Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost. After I train more people in the use of incense, we will have it more often. I elevate and genuflect during the words of institution and at the concluding doxology. Other manual acts include, among others, three signs of the cross at the epiclesis and at the concluding doxology.

Choir and congregation sing all of the service music. Choir chants the Psalm. Once in a blue moon, I'll chant. I don't chant more because I'm basically tone deaf. Music comes from a variety of sources including the Hymnal 1982, LEVAS, and WLP. Musician mostly uses organ but occasionally an upright piano. She used it all during Lent at my request. Choral anthems are selected by the musician to fit the abilities of the choir.

What else? Church has a freestanding altar which we use most of the time. During Lent, we used the high altar. It will be used again during Advent. Sacrament reserved in a tabernacle on the high altar. Reredos contains two statues (John and the BVM). Sanctuary has the standard two candles on the free standing altar, six on the high altar, and sanctuary candle suspended from the ceiling.

Congregation stands for prayers of the people but kneels for the confession and Eucharistic prayer. The choir and celebrant face the altar for the Nicene Creed. Other acts of piety vary from person to person.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
I am trying to work out where my "funny farm" - erm - parish - is on the Altimeter.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds fairly Anglo-Catholic to me. What about Benediction or Marian devotions?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I am trying to work out where my "funny farm" - erm - parish - is on the Altimeter.

---

You know, I have to concur with Think here. YOU started this wretched thread two years ago, and here you give us a blow-by-blow account of just what you do. Short of when you scratch your bum, I don't think you've left any detail undescribed. And your obsession with lists of times of services makes you the closest thing to an Ecclesiastical Bradshaw's that I have yet encountered.

So I was bewildered when you resurrected this thread to tell us all the same stuff again as if you had had no hand in the origins of this thread.

Odd. Very, very, very odd.

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