Ship of Fools: Eccles: Latin in the (Anglican) liturgy

Thread: Eccles: Latin in the (Anglican) liturgy Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I am aware that the use of the vernacular was, to an extent, a Reformation principle. However, the English Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England allows services to be said in a language understood by the people. At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.

In Anglican cathedrals there are many musical settings and Latin is used quite frequently in anthems and occasional eucharistic settings sung by the choir.

Would any shipmates like to share experiences of Latin in the liturgies of the CofE and other churches of the Anglican Communion, and their thoughts about this?

[ 12. September 2012, 17:58: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

At the Church of the Advent of Christ the King in San Francisco there is (or was) a Latin Eucharist every two weeks. They use a translation of the 1979 BCP; Rite I during Advent & Lent, and Rite II the rest of the year.

The choir in my place regularly sings Latin motets for the Offertory or Communion, and very occasionally Latin service music (the Requiem aeternam from Victoria's Missa pro defunctis as Introit on All Souls' Day). At my previous parish, we would use the Missa Orbis Factor (from the Liber Usualis) as the mass setting on Christmas and Easter.

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

On several occasions in TEC churches I have encountered the use of Latin for minor propers and the ordinary of mass. I don't mind it, as long as there is a translation provided.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Latin settings of the mass ordinary are common in both the CofE and in TEC. It's not difficult for even modestly educated individuals to learn to understand those texts in Latin. I would say that the minor propers in Latin are more challenging, partially because the chant settings make it difficult to discriminate individual words, grammatical inflections, and word order, so that the overall sense of the text becomes very difficult because you can't make it out in the first place, even if you have some Latin capacity. I have pled in other threads for a reduction in the complexity of polyphonic settings so that the Latin text is intelligible. The principle is that the Mass ought to be understanded of the people.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

Posted by manfromcaerdeon (# 16672) on :

We seem to have had this conversation, or very similar, fairly recently on here. Check this one out for a regular Latin C of E Mass.

http://www.bmtparish.co.uk/welcome/?page_id=224

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

It's important to note that St Silas is one of those CofE Novus Ordo places, so they use the vernacular contemporary RC rite at all their masses except for the Saturday celebration when they use the Latin text of the Novus Ordo.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

AS does All Saints, East Finchley.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.
It's important to note that St Silas is one of those CofE Novus Ordo places, so they use the vernacular contemporary RC rite at all their masses except for the Saturday celebration when they use the Latin text of the Novus Ordo.

Interestingly, they have adopted almost, but not quite all of the changes of the new translation.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

The Anglican Benedictines at Nashdom, UK and at St. Gregory's (Three Rivers, Michigan, US) used Latin for all of the ceremonies until after Vatican II. An associate Episcopal priest was a friend of mine, and he continued to occasionally celebrate Latin Masses privately for many years, which I served. He always did the offertory prayers in Latin.

Later editions of the Knotts Misale Anglicanum contained the Order of Mass in Latin. One of the Contonuing Anglican bodies in the US has recently (2010) published an Anglo-Catholic Book of Common Prayer, which also includes such texts. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BFy0AcGRZo

I have a late 19th century copy of the Book of Common Prayer from Oxford. It is completely in Latin, without any vernacular at all.

My childhood TEC parish sang parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, as other members described above. This practice was revived several years ago under one incumbent, who has since moved on. While he was there, I attended a Latin Requiem Mass in the chapel, which he celebrated for the repose of my grandparents.

I believe this is the church in San Francisco to which an earlier poster made reference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY

[ 19. May 2012, 12:48: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Latin settings of the Ordinary of the mass are now commonplace in C of E cathedrals 'and places where they sing', even in such protestant strongholds as Liverpool. I'm not that au fait with cathedral traditions but I'm sure this is a fairly recent development (well, not until late last century anyway). Does anyone know when this trend started and whether there was any resistance to it?

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :

I have not noticed any reaction against the use of latin in the CofE, but there was a very strong antagonism to its pronunciation "more romano" by a Cambridge scholar whose name I forget. Anyone remember?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Latin settings of the Ordinary of the mass are now commonplace in C of E cathedrals 'and places where they sing', even in such protestant strongholds as Liverpool. I'm not that au fait with cathedral traditions but I'm sure this is a fairly recent development (well, not until late last century anyway). Does anyone know when this trend started and whether there was any resistance to it?

I think it started with ASB. Cathedral musicians had complained that the settings to fit Series 3/ICET texts were inferior (I disagree - some of the ghastly, melodramatic Victorian settings were awful).

So ASB had a rubric that allowed other 'versions' of the text, which was probably meant to allow Darke in F and the like.

What we got was an improvement on Victoriana and modern - Byrd, Lobo net al.

Our choir sings some Latin most weeks.

Posted by Christina the Astonishing (# 17090) on :

At Exeter Cathedral, Latin is often used for various parts of the liturgy. On the Patronal Feast, (St Peter's Day) Latin is used for prayers such as the Creed and the Gloria. I also remember going to one very High institution where most of the Corpus Christi service was in Latin. I did not study Latin at school and the service lasted an hour and a half. In the last half an hour, I just lost concentration. I congratulated the choir on their mastery of this ancient language. They replied to me that they did not understand it either, and just pronouncced it any old how.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At the Church of the Advent of Christ the King in San Francisco there is (or was) a Latin Eucharist every two weeks. They use a translation of the 1979 BCP; Rite I during Advent & Lent, and Rite II the rest of the year.

It's still going on. I'm not sure when (I've never been), but I could easily find out. We have brochures for it up in Choir House here at the cathedral.

ETA: There's a schedule on their website that seems to indicate it's on the first Saturday of the month.

[ 19. May 2012, 20:42: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Christina the Astonishing:
At Exeter Cathedral, Latin is often used for various parts of the liturgy. On the Patronal Feast, (St Peter's Day) Latin is used for prayers such as the Creed and the Gloria. I also remember going to one very High institution where most of the Corpus Christi service was in Latin. I did not study Latin at school and the service lasted an hour and a half. In the last half an hour, I just lost concentration. I congratulated the choir on their mastery of this ancient language. They replied to me that they did not understand it either, and just pronouncced it any old how.

Latin is NOT to be pronounced "any old how"! Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation is quite standardised and is basically like the pronunciation of Italian in its conventions. It is emphatically not pronunced in the manner of classical Latin, such as one normally learns at school if studying Latin. Further, the meaning of the texts of the mass ordinary shouldn't be mysterious to any modestly literate person. First, if you've had the slightest introduction to Latin at school, you will grasp the basic point of the inflections, or endings, of nouns, pronouns and adjectives. Any study of the modern Romance languages will help tremendously, as well, as would a history of fairly traditional instruction in English, emphasising the Latin roots and derivations of various English words. Finally, a comparison of the English and Latin texts of the ordinary of the mass will also tend to reveal the meaning of what one is singing or hearing, especially in combination with the aforementioned aids to an understanding of the Latin mass text.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.

Would any shipmates like to share experiences of Latin in the liturgies of the CofE and other churches of the Anglican Communion, and their thoughts about this?

Not monthly, only termly - on the morning of the Thursday before full term. There is also the Latin Litany and Sermon early in Hilary Term -

quote:
Nothing like this would be found anywhere else in the world.

MW report 468

Quite so - they may have replaced them by now, but when I attended this some years ago the service books still had in the prayers for the royal family mention of the Queen - not Elizabeth II, but Victoria, of course. Used only once a year, they wouldn't wear out, I suppose.

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :

I think that until fairly recently a Novus Ordo Latin mass was said at the church of St John the Baptist, Holland Road, in West London, but I have a feeling that this is no longer the case.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

The provision of BCP services in Latin dates from the days when scholars still used it rather like Esperanto, as an international spoken language. As late as the mid-eighteenth century, Robert Lowth published his seminal work on Hebrew poetry in Latin. Even then, though, the pronunciation English speakers of Latin used would probably have made their speech incomprehensible to most continentals.

I doubt sufficient serious Latin speakers now attend any services even in Oxford that continuing to have services in it is anything other than an affectation.

It strikes me as obvious that continuing the practice is contrary to the spirit, and probably now the letter, of the Articles.

There was recently discussion on the Ship about CofE parishes in London using the Roman form of the mass in place of Common Worship. I agree with their Bishop's view on this. That discussion at least assumed they were using the Roman form in English - as do most RC congregations unless they are using Polish. Using the Roman form in Latin seems even more indefensible.

I can see a smidgeon of an excuse for sticking with Latin for choral bits that are sung only by the choir, provided - and I would say provided ONLY - that an English translation really cannot be fitted to the metre of the music. Otherwise, it goes with the sort of snobbery that insists that 'Of course, my dear, we only sing Silent Night in German', and disdains those of us who like surtitles at the opera.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.
It's important to note that St Silas is one of those CofE Novus Ordo places, so they use the vernacular contemporary RC rite at all their masses except for the Saturday celebration when they use the Latin text of the Novus Ordo.
Interestingly, they have adopted almost, but not quite all of the changes of the new translation.

Though I did not say so, I am aware of the use of the new English translation at St. Silas'. This is in spite of (or even because of!) the Bishop of London's request that it should not be used at Anglican churches within his Diocese, in which St. Silas' is situated.

Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :

The Preface to the 1549 BCP had the following:

quote:
Though it be appointed in the afore written preface, that all things shall be read and sung in the church in the English tongue, to the end that the congregation may be thereby edified: yet it is not meant, but when men say Matins and Evensong privately, they may say the same in any language that they themselves do understand.

Strictly interpreted this applies to (a) private rectations only of (b) Morning and Evening Prayer, and no other rites. But in practice, the BCP was soon translated into Latin, presumably for use at Universities and by others who wanted a Latin rite and were able to get away with it.

Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :

There is a Latin Vigil Mass every Saturday at St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Are there many Latin speakers in Hollywood?

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Mel Gibson?

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Are there many Latin speakers in Hollywood?

Well, since Spanish is a modern dialect of Latin, quite a few actually....

A couple of months ago there was an immersion weekend for the living Latin movement at the Getty Villa in Malibu, not that far from Hollywood: look here!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
disdains those of us who like surtitles at the opera.

I need surtitles (even at the ENO). But I never look at the service book at my church (except for the text of the creed) as I know all the bits I need to say by heart.

Therefore, if the common of the mass is sung in Latin, I know what the words are.

We have an ambitious choir which frequently sings Latin mass settings. The trebles (boys and girls) come in a large part from a nearby state school on the edge of a estate, which is (visibly) very mixed ethnically. They appear to have no complaints at singing in Latin.

Since there are forty home languages for the pupils of that school, their parents may have difficulty understanding what is said in English in the any case.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

Since there are forty home languages for the pupils of that school, their parents may have difficulty understanding what is said in English in the any case.

That's an interesting point. The Taizé community uses a lot of Latin, not because native Latin speakers are common there, but because it is, and attracts, an international and multilingual community. Latin is a way of transcending some of these differences, as it was in the medieval Catholic church. The balance has rightly swung, since the Reformation and Vatican 2, towards 'being understanded of the people'; but that can play into a chauvinistic 'little-Englandism' (or any other nationalism) which the C of E has often been prone to.
Even if a congregation is uniformly anglophone, the occasional use of Latin (or any other language I suppose) helps to demonstrate our awareness of the wider church and world. If, as in venbede's example and in many urban areas today, the congregation is less homogeneous, there is even more reason to do so.

Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

I think that Latin (Anglican) services are more common in Oxford than in Cambridge, but, as far as I know, the Chaplain of Caius does a Latin BCP service around the occasion of her birthday each year.

This year it falls on 11th of June at 8:15 am (St Barnabas' Day).

AV

Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
The Preface to the 1549 BCP had the following:
quote:
Though it be appointed in the afore written preface, that all things shall be read and sung in the church in the English tongue, to the end that the congregation may be thereby edified: yet it is not meant, but when men say Matins and Evensong privately, they may say the same in any language that they themselves do understand.
Strictly interpreted this applies to (a) private rectations only of (b) Morning and Evening Prayer, and no other rites. But in practice, the BCP was soon translated into Latin, presumably for use at Universities and by others who wanted a Latin rite and were able to get away with it.

That was in 1549, today Canon B42 states

Authorized forms of service may be said or sung in Latin in the following places -

Provincial Convocations

Chapels and other public places in university colleges and halls

University churches

The colleges of Westminster, Winchester and Eton

Such other places of religious and sound learning as custom allows or the bishop or other the Ordinary may permit

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The Taizé community uses a lot of Latin, not because native Latin speakers are common there, but because it is, and attracts, an international and multilingual community. Latin is a way of transcending some of these differences, as it was in the medieval Catholic church. The balance has rightly swung, since the Reformation and Vatican 2, towards 'being understanded of the people'; but that can play into a chauvinistic 'little-Englandism' (or any other nationalism) which the C of E has often been prone to.

Not just the C of E either. [Frown]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
There is a Latin Vigil Mass every Saturday at St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood.

While this Mass uses the Latin translation of the 1979 BCP, it includes some very unusual placement of bits of the liturgy (general confession after the Kyrie and before the Gloria), rather odd variations of the manual gestures, some bowing in places that genuflections would be more typical for Anglo-Catholics, and unusual times of facing liturgical West rather than East. I'm wondering if the ceremonial is Sarum/Dearmer-inspired or just completely idiosyncratic. Does anyone have any insights about this? Note: you need to watch the entire Mass to get the fullest impression of things -- it is spread over four separate youtube videos.

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :

We frequently have anthems and motets in Latin, and often in German, with the English translation always being provided.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
I think that Latin (Anglican) services are more common in Oxford than in Cambridge, but, as far as I know, the Chaplain of Caius does a Latin BCP service around the occasion of her birthday each year.

This year it falls on 11th of June at 8:15 am (St Barnabas' Day).

AV

Ah, but is Dr Hammond not an Oxford classics graduate?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

One person used to worshiping in a language other than his vernacular was our blessed Lord himself, if he spoke Aramaic daily. I believe Hebrew was no longer a demotic language by his lifetime.

(I'm no enthusiast for using artificially archaic language, like the C of E Rite B sprinkling thees and thous all over the place. On the other hand, most people have managed to worship in non-contemporary languages through the ages, eg Sanskrit, Hebrew, Classical Arabic, Old Church Slavonic, Byzantine and Koine Greek, Jacobean English, and so on..._)

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
I have not noticed any reaction against the use of latin in the CofE, but there was a very strong antagonism to its pronunciation "more romano" by a Cambridge scholar whose name I forget. Anyone remember?

This is still a topic of difference among Latin-speakers-- of the three I know, the younger two (veterans of Latin camp somewhere in Wisconsin where adolescents perform pieces, play games, and interact in Latin) use ecclesiastical prounciation, but the third is a hard-c nazi. A retired clerical friend told me of watching the Anglican Church of Canada's two clerical Latin speakers in the late 1960s (Eugene Fairweather and Carmino de Catanzaro) hold a heated argument on this, in Latin of course. I don't know of any living ACC clerics who can speak Latin, but I am open to correction on this.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I grew up in an environment where Latin was used for the Gloria, etc. on a fairly regular basis, but the rest of the Mass was in English. No-one seemed to mind too much if the Kyrie was in Greek and the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus-Benedictus and Agnus Dei were in Latin provided it was not done too often.

On the whole. I really do not mind Latin for the fixed portions of the Mass and Office, but rather resent it when those parts which change daily are in the Latin rather than the Vulgar tongue. However, I am a bit odd like that.

PD

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

In my experience, the Oxford-Cambridge distinction is more about the pronunciation of v: is it a hard v sound or a soft w sound. I've never heard anyone classically trained pronounce classical Latin with a soft c.

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
On the whole. I really do not mind Latin for the fixed portions of the Mass and Office, but rather resent it when those parts which change daily are in the Latin rather than the Vulgar tongue. However, I am a bit odd like that.

I entirely agree with this. Actually, I could say much the same about singing texts: if they are the same every time, singing them can give new meaning. If they change, then it can be difficult to concentrate on what the words actually are and to get even the basic meaning.

[ 22. May 2012, 17:07: Message edited by: Basilica ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

AFAIK, in America classical Latin is always pronounced with hard C and G,and with a V that is sounded as a W. By contrast, on this side of the pond, ecclesiastical Latin is correctly pronounced - invariably AFAIK - with various Italianate conventions, including soft G, C often have the Ch- sound, and the gn- combination being pronounced as a softened N with a Y consonant sound attaching to the N (this varies somewhat, as one does hear a hard G pronunciation some places of words like "Agnus", though it is more often pronunced as "Anyus").

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.
In my experience, the Oxford-Cambridge distinction is more about the pronunciation of v: is it a hard v sound or a soft w sound. I've never heard anyone classically trained pronounce classical Latin with a soft c.

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
On the whole. I really do not mind Latin for the fixed portions of the Mass and Office, but rather resent it when those parts which change daily are in the Latin rather than the Vulgar tongue. However, I am a bit odd like that.
I entirely agree with this. Actually, I could say much the same about singing texts: if they are the same every time, singing them can give new meaning. If they change, then it can be difficult to concentrate on what the words actually are and to get even the basic meaning.

Can't remember where our Latin teacher went to Varsity, but hard-v was the one true faith so far as he was concerned.

PD

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

There's at least four pronunciations of Latin. AFAIK nobody really knows how the Romans pronounced it. There's no tapes or CDs from that era.

Typically, old English pronunciation, Caesar pronounced as in English, i.e. Seezar, sine die pronounced seiny die. Amavi pronounced amayvy; jam spelt and pronounced jam. Except among lawyers, this was gradually superseded in the first half of the C20.

English public school pronunciation. Caesar pronounced Kaiser as German emperor; sine die pronounced sinny dee-ay'; amavi pronounced amahvi; iam pronounced yam.

A lot of classicists, more or less as above except that amavi is pronounced amahwi.

RC Church Latin. I know less about this but more like Italian, so Caesar is more likely to be Chesare. Not sure how the others are except possible seeny dee-ay and something more like amahphi.

Incidentally, I believe Greeks pronounce classical and Biblical Greek in the same way as they speak Modern Greek.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

RC Church latin has regional variations. It's a myth to imagine there is just one ecclesiastical pronunciation. The Germans sound very distinctive when articulating latin, and so do the French. Listen to the Pope and you will get the idea. For example the Germans: qui pronounced kvi, caelis pronounced tsaylees, regina pronounced
regg-ee-na rather than re-jee-na.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I once heard a reconstruction of a mass from medieval France, and what struck me was the extremely French pronunciation of the 'u' sounds (more like 'ee'). I have no idea whether this is still French pronunciation of Latin.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I once heard a reconstruction of a mass from medieval France, and what struck me was the extremely French pronunciation of the 'u' sounds (more like 'ee'). I have no idea whether this is still French pronunciation of Latin.

I'm inclined to give non-Italians some leeway when it comes to singing in Latin. What I've never quite understood is the Historical Reconstruction movement in early music which seeks to replace every possible choice open to the performer with The Way They Done It Back Then.

I was once in a small chorus which performed some excerpts from Isaac's Choralis Constantinus. The unfortunate decision was taken to perform them in Germanic Latin pronunciation, and so much energy was devoted to getting the proper "sp" lisp, the correctly brightened vowel sounds, and so on that there wasn't much time to make music out of the damn thing.

Richard Taruskin is correct. Either a work is worth doing as part of a living performance practice, or it should be left on the shelf. Historically-informed performance is worthwhile only as far as it avoids getting caught up in minutiae; music is not a matter of ticking off boxes.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Then there's the legal word "certiorari". Lawyers pronounce that as "sershorayi" At school we used what was called New Pronunciation, and is what I think Enoch calls public school pronunciation. Certiorari would be pronounced 'kerteeorarree". To use that in court would be as bad a solecism as pronouncing Theobald as it is written.

Back to the OP. When our choir sings a Mass in Latin, the service sheets for the day will have the Latin in one column and a line-by-line translation into English in another. Let's face it: there is an even smaller proportion of the population now who could follow the Latin than there was when the Masses were written. Better to adopt this course than to mangle an English translation to fit the music. It allows the congregation properly to worship.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Legal Latin is a creature unto itself. The way lawyers and legislators and judges pronounce that set of terms seems to be the same across the Anglospere and completely idiosyncratic to their profession.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I once heard a reconstruction of a mass from medieval France, and what struck me was the extremely French pronunciation of the 'u' sounds (more like 'ee'). I have no idea whether this is still French pronunciation of Latin.

In America the one correct form conforms to Italian conventions. I agree that French ecclesiastical Latin sounds French in terms of accent though I never noticed an actual difference in the formall pronunciation conventions. What those in the barbarian realms to the north may do I know not. I do know that Lithuanian Latin pronunciation was correct as far as I could ever detect, actually.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

I know that one point early in the 20th century there was a document that standardized the Latin pronunciation in the Church according to the Italian style, and the instructions in the Liber Usualis follow this pronunciation, but as Triple Tiara points out in practice there are still regional variations, and even the Pope uses a German-style pronunciation.

In classical-style pronunciation the consonants are pronounced more or less like in English, "C" and "G" are always hard, "U" is sometimes a vowel and sometimes like a "W", and there's a distinction between short and long vowels, among other things. As a native Romance speaker, the short/long vowel distinction always feels kind of awkward to me.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Legal Latin is a creature unto itself. The way lawyers and legislators and judges pronounce that set of terms seems to be the same across the Anglospere and completely idiosyncratic to their profession.

AIUI, legal Latin is the old pronunciation as used in anglophone countries (at least) until about 1900. It's very similar to old church Latin.

A mistype in my earlier post: the pronunciation of certiorari should have been sersheorareai. I've forgotten how to write in linguistic characters, but it is close on 50 years since I studied them. In any event, I don't know that they are available in UBB, and I'll stick to that excuse for not using them.

Posted by Ogre (# 4601) on :

All parts of the CofE, of whatever churchmanship, seem to have kept the Latin titles for the psalms and canticles; for example they are announced as the 'Magnificat', the 'Te Deum', etc. [Votive]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

But usually Mag-nificat, not Mahn-yificat, and Tea Dee-um, not Tay Dayum.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I know that one point early in the 20th century there was a document that standardized the Latin pronunciation in the Church according to the Italian style, and the instructions in the Liber Usualis follow this pronunciation, but as Triple Tiara points out in practice there are still regional variations, and even the Pope uses a German-style pronunciation.

In classical-style pronunciation the consonants are pronounced more or less like in English, "C" and "G" are always hard, "U" is sometimes a vowel and sometimes like a "W", and there's a distinction between short and long vowels, among other things. As a native Romance speaker, the short/long vowel distinction always feels kind of awkward to me.

Not to quibble too much, but in classical Latin you have no letter u, nor j. Instead you have V, which does duty as both the consonant (pronounced as a W in N. American classical Latin) and as the vowel that we symbolise as U. Then you have an I, which as a consonant is pronounced like the English consonant Y, and when functioning as a vowel is usually sounded like the English short i in "fish".

The letters U and J were invented by mediaeval scribes, and very useful they are. Except for inscriptions on buildings, you really wouldn't want to do without them in reading Latin efficiently.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Not to quibble too much, but in classical Latin you have no letter u, nor j....

Yes, that occurred to me after I wrote my post, but I was too lazy to go back and edit it [Smile]

. "U" is sometimes used in modern texts so for example my textbook has "servus" instead of "servvs" though it doesn't use "J" ("Ianuarius" instead of "Januarius" or "Ianvarivs").

[ 23. May 2012, 15:13: Message edited by: Pancho ]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

When listening to others speak,one can often tell from their accent where their origins lie.
When one listens to a person speaking another language from his or her own,one can often tell where that person comes from originally.

So it was in the days when in the Catholic church all Latin rite Masses were celebrated in that language.Even priests who were very good at speaking various languages would normally use their own language's pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin.Most French priests would pronounce 'Sanctus' as 'song tees'

I remember my utter shock when I heard the American cardinal Cushing celebrate the Requiem Mass for President Kennedy.I couldn't believe that it was possible and yet if one was used to an American accent (which I wasn't)I suppose it was quite normal.

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I know that one point early in the 20th century there was a document that standardized the Latin pronunciation in the Church according to the Italian style

This is quite so. In fact it was standardised in 1913 by Pope Pius X with pronunciation to conform to the Roman Italian of the day. As Enoch has said, there is nobody around today who knows how classical Latin was pronounced.

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
On the other hand, most people have managed to worship in non-contemporary languages through the ages, eg Sanskrit, Hebrew, Classical Arabic, Old Church Slavonic, Byzantine and Koine Greek, Jacobean English, and so on..._)

When the first English Prayer Books were published in the 16th century, they were meant to be in a vernacular understood by the people. By the 20th century, that vernacular had become what it was meant to replace, ie a liturgical language. When one speaks to God in thees and thous, and recites a creed about the quick and the dead, one is speaking in a manner not used in everyday conversation. I think this has its uses, as speaking to God can be hallowed and set apart from daily speech.

When a Church has a large international following like the Catholic Church and, to a lesser degree the Russian Orthodox Church, there's something comforting to know that the Mass will be the same in Poland and Peru, in Venice and Venezuala. Though Mass should always be available in the vernacular, I, for one, love it in Latin.

quote:
Originally posted by Litugylover:
Interestingly, they have adopted almost, but not quite all of the changes of the new translation.

I was in the back of St Alban the Martyr, Holborn last week, and I noticed that they've adopted the new translation, apart from the creed, which still begins with the awful mistranslation, "We believe." I can't see the point of that. Many of these Anglo-Catholic churches used the Roman Rite out of some sense of unity with the wider Catholic Church. The Holy Father has decreed that English speaing Catholics will use the new translation. The Bishop of London has decreed that Anglican Churches in his diocese will use Common Worship (or the Prayer Book, of course). so they are obeying nobody at St Albans, and going it entirely alone.

Most Anglican Churches which have a fine choral tradition, and there are many in London, will often have the Gloria, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin, when performing Mass setting by the great European composers. I've never been in an Anglican Church where the Mass was celebrated in Latin except at Corpus Christi.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
When listening to others speak,one can often tell from their accent where their origins lie.
When one listens to a person speaking another language from his or her own,one can often tell where that person comes from originally.

Rather curiously, my wife has a Danish accent when speaking German - or so we are told. Her grandfather was Danish, but she had no knowledge of Danish before she started on German - weird that!

PD

Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There's at least four pronunciations of Latin. AFAIK nobody really knows how the Romans pronounced it. There's no tapes or CDs from that era.

There are, however, pronunciation manuals and grammar-books and poetry from that time, from which one can draw reasonable conclusions.

In after days, Cassiodorus Senator wrote a spelling-book, suggesting (to me at least) that the pronunciation of Latin had by his time departed somewhat from the spelling.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
When the first English Prayer Books were published in the 16th century, they were meant to be in a vernacular understood by the people. By the 20th century, that vernacular had become what it was meant to replace, ie a liturgical language.

The Cornish couldn't understand English, so they rebelled.

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Cornish couldn't understand English, so they rebelled.

Twas a little more complex, and political, than that. "couldn't" should probably be "wouldn't" [Biased]

There are perhaps half a dozen services a year now, and increasing, in Cornish. There are probably some in Australia and California, too. But even fewer people understand Cornish now than understood English in 1549! [Big Grin]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Cornish couldn't understand English, so they rebelled.
Twas a little more complex, and political, than that. "couldn't" should probably be "wouldn't"

Or rather, 'why should they'?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I was taking the view I gathered from reading Philip Payton's history of Cornwall. He is very keen to emphasis separate Cornish identity.

Devonshire peasants also objected to the imposition of the 1549 prayer book, and could speak English. I imagine they found the new service was devoid of the visual, symbolic and holistic elements of the medieval mass and only conveyed matters through literate speech - with which as Devonian peasants, they may have found hard work.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

The pope seems to pronounce Latin with a Germanic lilt to an essentially Italianate style and varies it from time to time, either consciously or unconsciously, or that it is how it appears.

'School' Latin pronunciation has also changed as other shipmates have stated: DULCIS used to be pronounced DULL-SIS then this gave way to 'DUL -KISS whilst Church Latin would use DUL-CHEES.

Classical scholars have argued for generations about the 'proper' classical pronunciation. One suspects that there was really no such thing. The size of the empire, and the wide use of the language led to many varied pronunciations (like English today). Based on scansion and research of Horace's Odes, it is presumed that the middle of the Dulcis pronunciations would have been more 'correct'. Similarly it would depend on what era you would regard as the most pure, or whether it had to be Latin as spoken in Rome by the Romans at a given date (and this would also have varied).

It was regarded as a sign that Newman had set his mind on conversion when at Littlemore the residents of the 'monastery' changed from the English public school-university pronunciation to the Italianate one.

I would side with the more Italianiate as being beautiful and flowing and suitable for singing. And yet I have heard Latin cogniscent Spanish priests argue for Spanish te-tum-te-tum...et in saecula saeculorum.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

Curiosity gets the better of me. What is "Spanish te-tum-te-tum"?

Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :

Just back from the installation of the new Dean of St Paul's Cathedral.

It's not strictly speaking 'liturgical' , but he took the Oath to uphold the Constitution and Statutes of the Cathedral in (rather fluent sounding) Latin.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
It was regarded as a sign that Newman had set his mind on conversion when at Littlemore the residents of the 'monastery' changed from the English public school-university pronunciation to the Italianate one.

I am fascinated by this. My doctoral research deals with an aspect of this particular period and I've never come across any such suggestion. Could you point me to a source, please?

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I am happy to try and remember where I read this. I have a few Newman shelves of books to explore. Perhaps we can discuss off-line?

I have an idea that it was an observation of Dr Bloxam, Newman's distinguished curate and a Fellow of Magdalen.

Posted by Quam Dilecta (# 12541) on :

One of the ironies of liturgical history is the fact, pointed out in the previous post, that Anglicans have kept the Latin tags for the psalms and canticles, while English-speaking Roman Catholics have chosen to translate them. The same is true of the chants at Mass: at my Anglo-Catholic parish church, the choir sings the Introit; at the Roman church down the street, the same text is called the Entrance Song.

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
One of the ironies of liturgical history is the fact, pointed out in the previous post, that Anglicans have kept the Latin tags for the psalms and canticles, while English-speaking Roman Catholics have chosen to translate them. The same is true of the chants at Mass: at my Anglo-Catholic parish church, the choir sings the Introit; at the Roman church down the street, the same text is called the Entrance Song.

Hopefully, they're now calling it the Entrance Chant since that's what the new General Instruction calls it! (But I highly doubt it.)

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :

Protestant orders of service often conclude with a Benediction.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I was taking the view I gathered from reading Philip Payton's history of Cornwall. He is very keen to emphasis separate Cornish identity.

Devonshire peasants also objected to the imposition of the 1549 prayer book, and could speak English. I imagine they found the new service was devoid of the visual, symbolic and holistic elements of the medieval mass and only conveyed matters through literate speech - with which as Devonian peasants, they may have found hard work.

In Sampford Courtenay (Devon) they still make quite a thing of it.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In Sampford Courtenay (Devon) they still make quite a thing of it.

What had poor Mr Hellyons done? Called the vicar a whore of Babylon or something?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I imagine quite the reverse. He'd probably expressed enthusiasm for the ghastly new services imposed without pastoral consultation. I'll go and check.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Right. I quote from W H Hoskins' Devon.

"The parishoners of Sampford Courtnenay ... heard (the new service) read and did not like it and on the following day compelled their parish priest to return to the old ritual. The likened the new services to "a Christmas game" and would have no changes until the King was of full age.

Local justices came to remonstrate with the parishoners. A meeting took place in a field ... but the peasantry stood firm. William Hellyons, one the the gentry of (the) parish, rebuked them too tactlessly, tempers were high already, and as he was going down the stairs of the church house... a farmer named Lethbridge struck him on the neck with a bill."

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

The bill for 200 copies of the Book of Common Prayer?

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.
Not monthly, only termly - on the morning of the Thursday before full term. There is also the Latin Litany and Sermon early in Hilary Term -

Quite so - they may have replaced them by now, but when I attended this some years ago the service books still had in the prayers for the royal family mention of the Queen - not Elizabeth II, but Victoria, of course. Used only once a year, they wouldn't wear out, I suppose.

I am surprised. In 1986/7 the books placed in the stalls of the proctors (or more often, their sermon-tasting deputies!) were for the current reign. There are changes to the translations (apart from changes to the names of the monarch and royal family) from the Victorian ones.(These could be picked up in second-hand bookshops at one time, St Mary's must have sold them off.) I have no idea who felt the translation needed improved. Perhaps Fr Mascall? He was said to be responsible for revising the version of the prayers recited in the vestry after the Latin Communion.

"My" proctor tried to get me a copy of the Latin Prayer Book from the OUP as a memento of the year's sermons: "We shredded surplus stock last year, sir."

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.
Not monthly, only termly - on the morning of the Thursday before full term. There is also the Latin Litany and Sermon early in Hilary Term -

Quite so - they may have replaced them by now, but when I attended this some years ago the service books still had in the prayers for the royal family mention of the Queen - not Elizabeth II, but Victoria, of course. Used only once a year, they wouldn't wear out, I suppose.
I am surprised. In 1986/7 the books placed in the stalls of the proctors (or more often, their sermon-tasting deputies!) were for the current reign. There are changes to the translations (apart from changes to the names of the monarch and royal family) from the Victorian ones.(These could be picked up in second-hand bookshops at one time, St Mary's must have sold them off.) I have no idea who felt the translation needed improved. Perhaps Fr Mascall? He was said to be responsible for revising the version of the prayers recited in the vestry after the Latin Communion.

"My" proctor tried to get me a copy of the Latin Prayer Book from the OUP as a memento of the year's sermons: "We shredded surplus stock last year, sir."

My memories would be of the late 1960s.

I am sad to hear that the Press has succumbed to the base commercialism that you describe. A far cry from the patience shown to David Wilkins' translation of the New Testament from Coptic into Latin. The last of the 500 copies printed in 1716 remained in stock until 1907.

[ 04. June 2012, 21:55: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I have a Latin edition of the Book of Common Prayer, Liber Precum Publicarum (Ecclesiae Anglicanae), published in 1902 by Longmans, Green and Company. It includes the Scottish and American rites in Latin, as well.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
My memories would be of the late 1960s.

I am sad to hear that the Press has succumbed to the base commercialism that you describe. A far cry from the patience shown to David Wilkins' translation of the New Testament from Coptic into Latin. The last of the 500 copies printed in 1716 remained in stock until 1907. [/QB]

My very hazy recollection of 1964 Latin Litany is of rather worn brown books; I have no recollection whatsoever of the textual niceties. In 1974 (ish) the then Junior Proctor sang the Litany himself instead of by deputy, and did it so well that he was employed as deputy by all his successors until 1987 or later. I think the new books were in use by 1974. I recall in 1987, by which time the books certainly were new, that the Master of Balliol presided as Pro VC: a certain frisson as the erstwhile Fr Kenny sang the concluding prayers after the sermon.

As the Press, Ichabod!

[ 06. June 2012, 14:38: Message edited by: american piskie ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Was the sermon in Latin too? If it wasn't, that rather calls into question how much the rest of the service was in a tongue understanded of the people. And was a translation provided?

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :

I have posessed two different latin BCPs: one (the more antique)retranslated the bits Cranmer etc tanslated from the latin back into latin (so the e.g," Lord have mercy " became "Domine miserere nobis"), The other (by Bright and Medd I recall) reverted to the originals unless significant changes had been made.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Was the sermon in Latin too? If it wasn't, that rather calls into question how much the rest of the service was in a tongue understanded of the people. And was a translation provided?

Of course. Latin Litany and Sermon is what is advertised and what is provided. Current practice seems to be that the preacher provides an English crib.

Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
Just back from the installation of the new Dean of St Paul's Cathedral.

It's not strictly speaking 'liturgical' , but he took the Oath to uphold the Constitution and Statutes of the Cathedral in (rather fluent sounding) Latin.

I believe Dean Ison has a PhD in Patristics (The Constantinian oration to the saints : authorship and background, KCL, 1985) so I guess he would be more likely to be fluent in Latin than most!

x

AV

[ 10. June 2012, 07:07: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

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